China keeps trying to filter out some info ... I think google and microsoft (or some of those tech giants) get some heat for giving technology to help them do that ...
I was still in - but very disillusioned when I found Trancechat. It was a haven for me. Had I still been totally way-brained, I would have chalked the whole internet stuff as "an attack of the adversary". But I was ready to hear and more than ready to participate in any ex-way forum at the time.
I think the impact of the internet wasn't as relevent .until TWI got smaller and the ex-way presence on the internet grew larger In the mid to late 90's, there were certainly more ex-way people around than participants. It was when those ex-way found each other that caused TWI lots of grief. Sure, trancechat was a mess, but it was all that was out there. It did enough damage, but IMO, "t'was Waydale killed the beast". I honestly believe LCM would still be running things if it wasn't for Waydale. I don't think TWI would have grown, but he'd still be in charge of the small group of kool-aid drinkers who stuck around.
In the old days, when TWI was fat and happy, most of us would have gone on the defensive had their been an internet site that was against the MOG. We used to defend TWI against ANY criticism back then. I think one of the reasons that other groups haven't been closed down by disillusioned ex-followers is that there are still enough current followers to circle the wagons against any attacks on them. For example, Tom Cruise and his gang have lots of faithful followers and very deep pockets. They can afford to fight their nay-sayers. TWI has neither. Interet criticism against them will hurt a lot more than it does the Scientologists because they can't afford to give it any recognition in order to fight it. Just admitting there are ex-way sites on the internet will draw those who are curious or disillusioned right to them.
I've been online for 13 years now. I was on TraceChat, on WayDale and here on GreaseSpot. I have this to say about the three forums:
From TraceChat to GS, I've watched people post, fight, make up, and agree to disagree. What stood out to me was the healing taking place in their minds as the years passed by. The growth I've seen in everyone has been wonderful to watch. God has done so much for all of us to heal our mental (and physical in a few) wounds that TWI caused us during our years of participation.
Welcome to life on your own terms everyone. Take a deep breath, thank God for His help and enjoy the total freedom outside TWI micromanagement. :)
I'm with BikerBabe on that one - it's been quite a rocket ride sometimes to watch people come and go in the forums, and all the drama that can come with a diverse group connected by one very strange, sometimes horrific, sometimes comical, always out of the ordinary, experience such as what we all knew from our time in TWI. I started posting on Waydale in 2000, so it's been about 6 years. I guess I could say that the life I know now is because of that (meeting hubby on Waydale, starting our family, etc.)
I think we're unique because you can't tell a thearapist, a friend, or anyone else about your experiences and expect them to RELATE to it, other than someone who is also x-Way. Many times, both Hubby and I have said that we couldn't have married anyone else because there would be a level of understanding one another that would not be there with someone who had not been in TWI.
Likewise, I think that's why we're successful in informing people about TWI, the practices, the beliefs, and all that - we've lived it. We were a part of it. We lost a part of ourselves - or who we thought we were - or who we were brought up to be - when we left them. This is where we came to reclaim some of that - even if it was just to post to keep others from making the same mistakes we did, or for us to just take our burdens off our backs for a bit with others who KNEW - knew from the deepest part of their hearts - what we'd seen and been a part of. That's the impact we make here.
The internet connection I made on Waydale back in 1999, prior to my leaving, prior to my first posting, was so crutial. You have no idea. It was a life line for me to confirm there was life outside of TWI. I was so scared and confused and nieve. I remember my heart skipping a beat when I'd see a new post on Waydale - there were only like 10 posters in the beginning - sometimes it would be DAYS before a new post was on the board. The board didn't move and live like it does now. But even that made a difference - an impact.
Fast forward to now, can you imagine - with the archieves, the threads, the thousands of subjects that have been discussed - all that - can you imagine the information and possible connections we have out there now for people to discover? It's huge.
Some very keen observations made on this thread...
The power of the internet is the perfect medicine for those who are isolated with their twi experience...I, also was a poster on Trancechat, Waydale, and GreaseSpot...
Trancechat was an uncensored free for all...and yes, I agree that it was Waydale that killed the beast. LCM finally messed with somebody that he really shouldn't have, the arrogant bast *rd. Thanks to Paul Allen, and his computer savy, Waydale took off the gloves and twi took a hard right to the chin... they're still laying on the mat.
The GreaseSpot Cafe is the continuation and evolution of all the earlier ex-twi sites.and Chas is right when she says "it's huge". Twi never imagined that when we quit, got booted or just faded away...that we would regroup on the other side of the fence with stories to tell...and now, we are their worst nightmare.
Along the lines of the explosion of ex-wayfers on the message boards: much of the literature that was out in the 70's and 80's originated with ministers who had doctrinal beefs with TWI, or circulated what seemed like extreme exaggerations, e.g. the weapons training that was a hunter safety course, or the Way Corps eating out of trash cans.
One of the first things that I noticed on Waydale was that many of the stories were very similar to my own experiences. Things that I had chalked up to abberations, or "rogue Way Corps" were part of the nationwide pattern.
SF and DM - I agree with both of you however my point was not that books and the internet are functionaly identical but that they are analogs and hence (in light of TWI) if the internet is evil then by analog comparison then books are evil. Books were one of the earliest forms of mass communication (I'll ignore jungle drums for now) and the internet is the modern analog - faster, easier, broader reaching.
And I'll agree with your premise, RumRunner. Didn't mean to disagree in THAT respect. What I see as the main difference (thus the declaration by twi that the internet is *evil*), is that the internet is something they cannot control, can't sell in their bookstore, etc.
How many folks have ignored the many versions of the bible (other than KJV), simply because twi uses KJV, and no other version?? Lots. I know I did. And that is just using the example of the bible, and not even scratching the surface when it comes to other printed material. But since twi is in the business of printing their own material in book form, and selling it it for a fat prophet (scuze me ^^^COUGH^^^ -- I meant to say *profit*), they can't declare books evil. :)
On my very first post here, I mentioned about the years of living in ignorance after leaving TWI, making a life but still blaming myself for my "downfall". I heard a few things in those twenty plus years, but never enough to "flip the switch".
Then came the bounty of info through a simple Goggle search-and the light came on. If not for the Internet, I'd still be living in ignorance and self-condemnation. I think I can guarantee that even if I had found Karl's book, it wouldn't have been enough for me to swim out of the soup. It took sifting through all the info and hearing the first hand accounts to finally break the chains.
So, yeah, without the Internet, I'd still be stuck in Waybrain. But not anymore!!
I too first went to Waydale while still in. At first I thought that perhaps there were some people with axes to grind and some people with legitimate complaints and some people that were out to get the organization. At the time I let my own personal not so bad experience, outweigh what everyone here was saying.
I wasn't and still am not exactly a techno-sav. I only went to waydale because a close non-twi Christian, lindyhopping, female friend of mine was concerned because she knew I was in a cult and told me to check it out. Seven years ago in my blue collar, non-tech job, I never thought about typing in "twi" into a search engine. The times have changed much in just a few years.
The twi internet info did plant a seed. My not so bad experience was actually not all that great and I didn't even realise it. I think what got me thinking was the role-over of leaders in our area. Since I have left there have been some innies that believe I left because I had a bad bout with bad leadership. Not totally true. Not all of them were bad people or even bad leaders but when they left or were kicked out it made an impact on me and really made me think about my own life. Years earlier, when a girl that I was seriously dating left twi without an explaination, it hurt and made me think....a lot. I think that was kind of the begining of my transition. My parents were put on probation, twice. That made me think.
When sh!+ is hunky dorry and you have the blinders on and your eyes wide shut, you don't think much in twi. It takes bad things that happen to you or the ministry. It takes people around you leaving. Look at the "fog years." Look at the Allen law suit. People left. Leaders left and that caused a lot of people to leave.
IMO, for the twi to come crashing down, it takes a stir. A stir from within.
My original point was not that people in it will see the light by way of the internet, but that those that are thinking about going to this different sounding fellowship will. It seems that for quite some time now new foudational grads are largely coming of age innies. There is not a huge influx of new people. It is a different world and people have and will continue to come to places like this to see if it is kosher. That, IMO, is a major factor in the non-comeback of TWI. But for it to fall will take people making a visible or vocal stir. That could happen in a number of ways including a lawsuit but more likely by leaders speaking up and not shutting up.
For those of you that have gotten this far down on my post, thanks for reading. :)
On my very first post here, I mentioned about the years of living in ignorance after leaving TWI, making a life but still blaming myself for my "downfall". I heard a few things in those twenty plus years, but never enough to "flip the switch".
Then came the bounty of info through a simple Google search-and the light came on. If not for the Internet, I'd still be living in ignorance and self-condemnation. I think I can guarantee that even if I had found Karl's book, it wouldn't have been enough for me to swim out of the soup. It took sifting through all the info and hearing the first hand accounts to finally break the chains.
So, yeah, without the Internet, I'd still be stuck in Waybrain. But not anymore!!
TOTW
That's me you're talking about! (Not quite 20 years, though). Heck, I was under so much guilt and condemnation, that once I decided the next 40(??) years couldn't be like that I think I would have eaten any humiliation to get back. Googled "TWI" and "GSC" came up. Waybrain said that all the GSC stuff was "a trick of the adversary" - but there was soooo much of it! Looks like things got even worse after I was M&A'd. The articles in the Editorial section really helped and the guilt evaporated shockingly quickly.
If I were to get involved in anything today (any new club or organisation of any kind) in a serious way, I'd do a Google search. Hopefully any "newbie" would. They wouldn't be impressed with the TWI site, which is pretty uninformative and very boring.
The mantle has moved on. TWI are "old prophets" (or "old wineskins"). Aren't old things that remind us of what held us back disposed of on "Uncle Harry Day"?
The opinion I often run into and continually find that most people have is what was stated on another thread:
people of this age will always check things out on the internet.
What it all boils down to is for the "people of this age" the things out on the internet is equivalent to the indesputable "word of God". Welcome to: Church on the Internet. Summing it up briefly (while refering to another thread at the same time) that is exactly what is "wrong with the Church today." What is wrong with the Church is people think they know what God wants the Church to be – basically, that’s what’s wrong with the Church today. People think the Church is all about their worship, about their church programs, their ministry, their meetings, their outreach and other logistics. "Church on the Internet" is a fine example of people attempting to do "church" their own way. Even local churches have web sites for someone to "hook-up" with them.
So many people today, even Christians, are just existing and not really living. They go day to day – from work – to home – to TV – to sleep; then get up - to work – to home – to TV – to sleep – it's the whole thing all over again. The problem is not so much with the Church itself per se, but that people have forgotten what authentic Christianity is about. Authentic Christianity is all about love. It is sacrificially serving your savior with your best friends. It’s not about the form of the Sunday morning service, the church’s programs, tweaking this and tweaking that and whatever other logistics there are. Authentic Christianity is NOT about logistics, it’s about love. Authentic Christianity is not a program or a meeting. Well - we can always tweak this and tweak that, but genuine, authentic Christianity is about sacrificially serving your savior with your best friends.
That’s the part American Christianity has been losing and continues to keep on losing. They’re all about doing their own ministry and doing it their own way. O.K. I’ve got my ministry. Now they are doing it on their own and it is always about them. But what was the example of our Lord Jesus Christ when he was on the earth? To briefly sum it up, his WHOLE life was about sacrificially serving his Father with his best friends. That’s how he lived - in community with other people, specifically his best friends. But in our American culture we are so independent. There are people even saying we don’t need the church anymore. They say the church is outdated and obsolete and that people can be authentic Christians on their own. Not according to scripture. Do you think the church is something man invented? NO! It is something God Himself created. It’s where you “plug into” the body of Christ and if you’re not plugged into the church you’re not plugged into Jesus Christ in a practical way. The “voices” are out there saying the church is dead, that it’s obsolete and one can “do it” all on their own. But God says differently. The church was His invention. Authentic Christianity is about sacrificially serving your savior with your best friends. In doing so you become a living example of the way our Lord Jesus Christ lived while he was on earth.
It’s not so much about what Christian fellowship or what church you belong to that matters. What it is about and what matters is; does the fellowship or the church you attend offer you opportunities to sacrificially serve your savior with your best friends? If not, than not I nor can anyone else for that matter make you devoted to the apostle’s doctrine – to the fellowship of believers; to the breaking of bread and to prayer. If the fellowship or the church you attend does not provide you with the opportunity to pursue authentic Christianity, then perhaps you should question the way you have been living. I know that’s the only way for any Christian to really live, the way my savior lived. The only question a Christian must ask themselves is – how am I going to accomplish that – that is, pursue genuine Christianity? If you try to keep your life to yourself and for yourself, then you’re just going to lose it. There is nothing more important in life than following the Lord Jesus Christ. But if you want to follow him, then you must deny yourself. You must pick up your cross and follow him, because whoever tries to keep his life for himself will lose it. It will only turn out worthless – it won’t matter. But if you lose your life for me, Jesus says, you will find it. (Matthew 16: 24-26)
Look. You don’t have to pray about that, think about that, or even get Christian counsel about that. I can tell you that is God’s will for your life 100 percent. My Christian brothers and sisters this is not a game! This is not a program or a meeting. This is God’s will for your life!!! A day is coming when you and I will both stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and we’re going to know that His Church was not a game. This is His plan, His vehicle, His family, and He, God Almighty meant for you and I both to live authentic, genuine, Christianity. The only question that remains is: How are you and I going to do that? It all starts by fellowshipping with those who want to do Gods Will and will also help you do exactly what it is what God wants you to do. The early church always found a way to do that - to devote themselves to the apostles doctrine - and they didn't have computers or the Internet. The point I am making is the early church found a way to make it happen. One day God will be talking with you and I about how it happened today.
Now I want you to remember this. Those people, the early Christians were meeting together every day. Where? In their homes! Amazing! I am sure we all think that we’re way too busy for that today. Now I’m not asking any of you to meet me in my home every day. Many of you are too far away! Besides, I don’t want you in my house every day. But those people had families. They had jobs. They were busy too and they still found a way to devote themselves to learning and to applying the apostles teaching. They devoted themselves to their fellowship – to their Christian friendships, and to prayer and to the Lords supper. The point I am making is they found a way to practice authentic, genuine Christianity and the logistics took care of themselves. But today all we Christians do is concern ourselves with the logisitics of the Church, then wonder why we no longer have the time to devote ourselves to the apostles doctrine and the practice of genuine, authentic Christianity.
hey, what the hey, if you want to devote yourself to christian fellowship in homes every day, in spite of the fact that you have a family, job, a life, etc., let me tell about this group that would be happy to load you up. they started in rural ohio, back in 1942...
A day is coming when you and I will both stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and we’re going to know that His Church was not a game. ... The only question that remains is: How are you and I going to do that? It all starts by fellowshipping with those who want to do Gods Will and will also help you do exactly what it is what God wants you to do. The early church always found a way to do that - to devote themselves to the apostles doctrine - and they didn't have computers or the Internet. ...
The impact of the internet might well be to assist those who want to do just that, and to avoid those who talk about doing it and do otherwise - make it a "game". Seeing what's on GSC, would you want to join TWI (a church)?
(Though there might well be (and certainly were) some fine folks locally who really did live the life - that's true of any church/denomination).
Can't remember the beginning of this thread.
If it was about the internet replacing "church", not possible, have to agree with you, WhatTheHey. Internet cannot replace personal contact.
If it was about using the internet to avoid and expose harmful organizations, it encourages the individual to use his or her judgment a little more carefully. Has to be beneficial.
Initially I was going to post my reply on the: "What's wrong with the Church" thread, but I posted it on this thread because for many people the Internet is the predominant way many people are connecting with one another. I wasn't criticizing the use of the Internet per se, other than for many people it is and has become a replacement for genuine fellowship.
Because of some people's past experiences (most notably in TWI) some missed the point I was making. Genuine Christianity is not just about meeting together or about meeting frequently in each others homes. It’s not just about eating and drinking coffee or having a doughnut together. All of that is logistics. Now sometimes it can be and it is doing those things together. But at the core of what we do as Christians should always be following the commands the Lord gave us, and there are over 100 commands in the New Testament for us to love one another. The point I was and am making is this: How are you going to practically do what the Lord has commanded?
One can’t practically carry out the Lords commands effectively by chatting with someone on-line or by posting messages on a web site. Truthfully one can’t carry out the Lords commands effectively by meeting once a week in a Sunday service - which predominates American Christianity today. Certainly one can make acquaintances doing those things, but those things are not conducive to producing real and meaningful friendships. I think Elena S. Whiteside addresses the same problem to some extent in the book: "God's Word in Culture" specifically the chapter on "The State of the Union". In that chapter she talks about Tony Manero, the hero of "Saturday Night Fever". The story revolves around Tony Manero, a nineteen year old who works a drab job selling paint - his life consisting of work, hanging out with his buddies and then the high point - dressing up and going to the local disco on Saturday night. It's there in the "disco" where Tony receives recognition, praise admiration and validation - where he can "be somebody". But today the Internet is the replacement for the 1970's disco. It's the place where someone who is typically a nobody can receive recognition, praise, admiration and validation from their peers.
As Elena Whiteside put it, "What is there for the Tony Manero of today?" The answer to that is that today there is the Internet. It's just another one of today's theives, sucking off peoples lives like a vacuum cleaner right out of life and living. "These theives have only as much influence over people as the people allow them to have," as Elena Whiteside put it. But people are subject to these influences, because in contrast, their surroundings are so overwhelmingly drab, dull, secondhand that TV, drugs, and dropping out seem the lesser of two evils. To that strange mix one can add the Internet. Evils, nevertheless, are both alternatives. TV, drugs, dropping out and the Internet just steal from us the experience of life and the reason to develop meaningful relationships with one another.
On the surface there is nothing wrong with the Internet any more than TV. These forms of media can be and are great avenues for learning. But on the other side of the coin, the Internet I believe gives one greater access to "instant gratification" than what TV ever did. That is why time now spent on-line is near or greater than the amount of time that one use to spend in front of the "boob tube". But these are just the conditions of our consumer society, and one can more easily change a condition after it has been recognized and defined.
Initially I was going to post my reply on the: "What's wrong with the Church" thread, but I posted it on this thread because for many people the Internet is the predominant way many people are connecting with one another. I wasn't criticizing the use of the Internet per se, other than for many people it is and has become a replacement for genuine fellowship.
Then, this is why you were misunderstood - you posted off topic on the wrong thread. THIS thread is about the impact of the internet on exposing evil organizations like TWI.
But at the core of what we do as Christians should always be following the commands the Lord gave us, and there are over 100 commands in the New Testament for us to love one another. The point I was and am making is this: How are you going to practically do what the Lord has commanded?
One can’t practically carry out the Lords commands effectively by chatting with someone on-line or by posting messages on a web site. Truthfully one can’t carry out the Lords commands effectively by meeting once a week in a Sunday service - which predominates American Christianity today. Certainly one can make acquaintances doing those things, but those things are not conducive to producing real and meaningful friendships.
Well, carrying out the Lord's command to love one another and "producting real and meaningful friendships" are two totally different things, imo. The Good Samaritan didn't make real and meaningful friends with the man he helped for all we know... he merely took care of the man's needs at the time. Same with Jesus, actually. He didn't make "real and meaningful friendships" with everyone he met. He just "shared the love" so to speak.
Actually, I have helped quite a few folks here at the Cafe (if the PM's I get are any indication). I do post here to help people and to "share the love" as we are commanded. I have even made "real and meaningful friendships" with not a few folks on here, but most of those are through them helping me and not vice versa.
I believe you get out of it what you put into it. *shrug* I also believe in balance and when I read posts like yours it seems awfully condescending and extreme - not taking into account the fact that most of us are NOT Tony Whatshisname, nor anything like him. Limit God to what you think he's capable of, but I won't. I've seen him work through the internet just like he can and does in "real life" way too many times.
I firmly believe that TWI and organizations like it - including Scientology - have been severely hurt by the advent of the Internet. I also believe that our younger generations are much smarter and much more inclined to check out all sides of an issue before turning their lives over to a group that attempts to control people the way they do. Heck, all we need now is a Tom Cruise kind of character to add to the bad publicity TWI gets.
From the way this was written, one might think that there was such thing as the internet when EW wrote
her book. WTH is extrapolating from her at one place, and citing her in an attempt to support his point
in another. The result appears as if WTH is saying EW wrote ABOUT the internet when she wrote this book.
Man, twi really hated Travolta. "Saturday Night Live" was evil,
and "Staying Alive" was plagiarized INTENTIONALLY to make AOS (off the "Satan's Alley" sequence.)
I can only imagine what lcm said once Travolta became a Scientologist...
I think Elena S. Whiteside addresses the same problem to some extent in the book: "God's Word in Culture" specifically the chapter on "The State of the Union". In that chapter she talks about Tony Manero, the hero of "Saturday Night Fever". The story revolves around Tony Manero, a nineteen year old who works a drab job selling paint - his life consisting of work, hanging out with his buddies and then the high point - dressing up and going to the local disco on Saturday night. It's there in the "disco" where Tony receives recognition, praise admiration and validation - where he can "be somebody".
[Ok, all of that was what EW said, and as far as it goes, it's correct-
but it doesn't address that this is also just plain what he does for FUN.
I find saying Manero discoed for "validation" is reading too much into the movie.
That Manero was passionate about "dance" as opposed to doing it for the
"pat on the back" becomes more obvious when seeing the sequel.
He's dedicated hundreds of hours of rehearsal a week, and many hours going to
auditions, only to be sent home and face rejection EVERY TIME.
That was thus the opposite of "validation" EACH TIME.]
But today the Internet is the replacement for the 1970's disco. It's the place where someone who is typically a nobody can receive recognition, praise, admiration and validation from their peers.
[At its heart, the Internet is a method of communication and information-exchange
between people. Some of us find the communication and information-exchange all by itself
is a laudable goal all by itself.
Then again, I suspect that those who don't GET "recognition", "praise", "admiration"
or "validation" for just going about their business might well claim that this is the ONLY
goal, and further that it is to be despised.
Meanwhile, a few seconds' search gave me the information I was looking for,
which illustrates my point. It predates the internet by nearly 2000 years.
"One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."
Aesop had a point to make there...]
As Elena Whiteside put it, "What is there for the Tony Manero of today?"
[it is her opinion that there has to be an answer to that.
People doing things for the love of doing them has been an element for society as long as
there has BEEN society. I assert that Jubal wouldn't have been the de facto inventor of
music if he didn't like music, and Tubal-Cain wouldn't have invented smithing if he didn't
find a joy in building things that last.
Then again, the recognition inherent in the tasks might cause one to say that the reason
they did either was "for validation."
On the other hand, people hotdogging and doing things just to get the credit for doing them
has a long history in society as well, probably as long as there has BEEN society.
So,
this really is unsupported.
Further, she said nothing about the Internet, which didn't exist back then.
Connecting her unsupported supposition and its supposed correctness
to this discussion is the supposition of WTH.]
The answer to that is that today there is the Internet. It's just another one of today's theives, sucking off peoples lives like a vacuum cleaner right out of life and living.
[some people value the information they can receive at their fingertips at a moment's notice.
With a few seconds' work, you can download Aesop's Fables, the most classical of literature,
tools for use with a Bible, valuable medical knowledge or knowledge of ANY area of study,
or just communication and friendship.
It can be used for entertainment, for news, for knowledge, for friendship.
Ignoring one of those uses entirely does it-and yourself-a disservice.]
"These theives have only as much influence over people as the people allow them to have," as Elena Whiteside put it. But people are subject to these influences, because in contrast, their surroundings are so overwhelmingly drab, dull, secondhand that TV, drugs, and dropping out seem the lesser of two evils. To that strange mix one can add the Internet. Evils, nevertheless, are both alternatives. TV, drugs, dropping out and the Internet just steal from us the experience of life and the reason to develop meaningful relationships with one another.
[Or they can add immeasurably to one's life.
The printing press can be used to produce trash magazines of negligible quality,
and it can produce medical journals and Bibles.
To ignore the latter uses is to does it-and yourself-a disservice.
Perhaps it is the PERSON and not the TOOL that determines its utility-or its uselessness.]
On the surface there is nothing wrong with the Internet any more than TV. These forms of media can be and are great avenues for learning. But on the other side of the coin, the Internet I believe gives one greater access to "instant gratification" than what TV ever did. That is why time now spent on-line is near or greater than the amount of time that one use to spend in front of the "boob tube". But these are just the conditions of our consumer society, and one can more easily change a condition after it has been recognized and defined.
[You proved my point. Television can be used for education as well as entertainment.
(Or both at the same time, as GOOD education is INTERESTING, often, especially on TV.)
The great ADVANTAGE in utility of the internet over the television is that the user CONTROLS THE
EXPERIENCE. He posts and interacts with others, and he determines which of the billions and billions of
So many people today, even Christians, are just existing and not really living. They go day to day – from work – to home – to TV – to sleep; then get up - to work – to home – to TV – to sleep – it's the whole thing all over again.
This idea that the duty and routine of daily living is "just existing and not really living" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. The same thinking was promoted in twi. Like God can't work in small ways, like the small but necessary things of life aren't "doing the word". How many times in twi did I hear before we were to go witnessing "you never know...you might just witness to the next apostle Paul"...as if just speaking the right words to someone at the right time isn't just as important to God. Geez...this mentality that God's will for our lives has to be flash and pizazz and just one "mountaintop experience" after another...I don't buy it.
After almost 20 years out of twi, I still wake up and most days and thank God that I have a routine...that I get to work at real job and live in my very own house and watch tv when I want and sleep...aaah...I'm still catching up on all the sleep I missed back in waydaze..
Consider for a moment what it might be like to be blind. No body language, no telltale facial expressions, no way of knowing whether the other person is fashion conscious or sporting the latest hairstyle, and yet communication takes place. How? by the greatest tool of communication ever; words. The internet is filled to overflowing with words and it is up to each individual how much and what type of meaning to give those words. We can play "name that tune", share something that is "just plain silly", or even ponder the discussions in the "doctrinal" and decide if we would like to try these ideas in " real life". It is true, at least in my opinion, that no machine can replace person to person interaction, but let's not allow ourselves to deny the existance or value of relationships that can and most certainly do exist on the internet. With that said, we must also develope a keen sense of awareness that will safeguard us from those absent visual clues.
----------------------------------HERE'S TO GOOD FRIENDS!------------------------------------------
As I see it, TWI and "Scary Geery Bus Driver" purposely have no open interactive sites like other religious groups do because they have too many skeletons in their closets. Am I right excathedra? Where are their My Spaces, email addresses and "Contact Us info? Busboy doesn't even have a website. What's up with that?
IMHO they're trying to cover up their past and present forms of behavior and abuse as well as their house of cards teachings. I can hear it now from certain Geerites I know. " God told me not to go on the Internet and read posts " or "God told me not to communicate with you."
Typical dumbell, legalist, idolatrous behavior. Can't blind followers see that certain leaders are taking advantage of them using their hard earned cash to help them coast into a prosperous retirement in the near term future?
The great ADVANTAGE in utility of the internet over the television is that the user CONTROLS THE
EXPERIENCE. He posts and interacts with others, and he determines which of the billions and billions of
websites he is going to spend time on.
You went on and made my case even better than I did WW. That is the main reason why time spent on the Internet has matched and for the most part out-paced the time that used to be spent in front of the TV set - the Internet is far more addictive than the "boob tube" ever was. The reason the Internet is highly addictive is because the "user" can selectively tune out whatever unpleasant elements he or she doesn't like and interact with the more pleasant ones. The addicted Internet user in essence creates their own distorted reality of life by avoiding the conflicts that are inherent in interpersonal relationships. The reality of life is: Genuine relationships contain conflict. That is the inescapable fact of real life here in the real word. That is not necessarily always the case in the virtual world. If there were no conflict, there would be no genuine relationship.
The sad truth is the addicted Internet user ends up paying a very high price for this distorted reality of life and living much like the addicted drug user does. And it is a drug. Now no addicted drug user will ever admit to you openly that they are hooked or addicted. Rather the opposite is the case. Most drug users will tell you they can quit the drug they've been using at the drop of a hat with no side effects. Most Internet users can't go more than 24 hrs. without another "fix" - without "hooking up" and going on-line. We have all heard stories of marriages that have been dissolved and strained because the spouse was addicted to Internet porn. I'm just citing one example where the Internet has made pornography easy and accessible where before the days of the Internet that was not the case. Today one can spare themselves the possible embarrassment of meeting someone they would rather not meet by visiting adult web sites rather than risk meeting somebody coming out of the adult book store that used to be on the shady side of town. Today the Interent has completely taken away that "unpleasant" risk for those addicted to pornography. The Interent has completely taken away the possibility of any conflict out of that relationship today, but it certainly hasn't taken away any of the cost.
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waysider
"If I had a rocket launcher---------" OOPS! I was headed for "Name That Tune"----- or was I?
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krys
They've succeeded:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4645596.stm
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Hope R.
I'm with Oak and Krys...
I was still in - but very disillusioned when I found Trancechat. It was a haven for me. Had I still been totally way-brained, I would have chalked the whole internet stuff as "an attack of the adversary". But I was ready to hear and more than ready to participate in any ex-way forum at the time.
I think the impact of the internet wasn't as relevent .until TWI got smaller and the ex-way presence on the internet grew larger In the mid to late 90's, there were certainly more ex-way people around than participants. It was when those ex-way found each other that caused TWI lots of grief. Sure, trancechat was a mess, but it was all that was out there. It did enough damage, but IMO, "t'was Waydale killed the beast". I honestly believe LCM would still be running things if it wasn't for Waydale. I don't think TWI would have grown, but he'd still be in charge of the small group of kool-aid drinkers who stuck around.
In the old days, when TWI was fat and happy, most of us would have gone on the defensive had their been an internet site that was against the MOG. We used to defend TWI against ANY criticism back then. I think one of the reasons that other groups haven't been closed down by disillusioned ex-followers is that there are still enough current followers to circle the wagons against any attacks on them. For example, Tom Cruise and his gang have lots of faithful followers and very deep pockets. They can afford to fight their nay-sayers. TWI has neither. Interet criticism against them will hurt a lot more than it does the Scientologists because they can't afford to give it any recognition in order to fight it. Just admitting there are ex-way sites on the internet will draw those who are curious or disillusioned right to them.
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BikerBabe
I've been online for 13 years now. I was on TraceChat, on WayDale and here on GreaseSpot. I have this to say about the three forums:
From TraceChat to GS, I've watched people post, fight, make up, and agree to disagree. What stood out to me was the healing taking place in their minds as the years passed by. The growth I've seen in everyone has been wonderful to watch. God has done so much for all of us to heal our mental (and physical in a few) wounds that TWI caused us during our years of participation.
Welcome to life on your own terms everyone. Take a deep breath, thank God for His help and enjoy the total freedom outside TWI micromanagement. :)
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ChasUFarley
I'm with BikerBabe on that one - it's been quite a rocket ride sometimes to watch people come and go in the forums, and all the drama that can come with a diverse group connected by one very strange, sometimes horrific, sometimes comical, always out of the ordinary, experience such as what we all knew from our time in TWI. I started posting on Waydale in 2000, so it's been about 6 years. I guess I could say that the life I know now is because of that (meeting hubby on Waydale, starting our family, etc.)
I think we're unique because you can't tell a thearapist, a friend, or anyone else about your experiences and expect them to RELATE to it, other than someone who is also x-Way. Many times, both Hubby and I have said that we couldn't have married anyone else because there would be a level of understanding one another that would not be there with someone who had not been in TWI.
Likewise, I think that's why we're successful in informing people about TWI, the practices, the beliefs, and all that - we've lived it. We were a part of it. We lost a part of ourselves - or who we thought we were - or who we were brought up to be - when we left them. This is where we came to reclaim some of that - even if it was just to post to keep others from making the same mistakes we did, or for us to just take our burdens off our backs for a bit with others who KNEW - knew from the deepest part of their hearts - what we'd seen and been a part of. That's the impact we make here.
The internet connection I made on Waydale back in 1999, prior to my leaving, prior to my first posting, was so crutial. You have no idea. It was a life line for me to confirm there was life outside of TWI. I was so scared and confused and nieve. I remember my heart skipping a beat when I'd see a new post on Waydale - there were only like 10 posters in the beginning - sometimes it would be DAYS before a new post was on the board. The board didn't move and live like it does now. But even that made a difference - an impact.
Fast forward to now, can you imagine - with the archieves, the threads, the thousands of subjects that have been discussed - all that - can you imagine the information and possible connections we have out there now for people to discover? It's huge.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Some very keen observations made on this thread...
The power of the internet is the perfect medicine for those who are isolated with their twi experience...I, also was a poster on Trancechat, Waydale, and GreaseSpot...
Trancechat was an uncensored free for all...and yes, I agree that it was Waydale that killed the beast. LCM finally messed with somebody that he really shouldn't have, the arrogant bast *rd. Thanks to Paul Allen, and his computer savy, Waydale took off the gloves and twi took a hard right to the chin... they're still laying on the mat.
The GreaseSpot Cafe is the continuation and evolution of all the earlier ex-twi sites.and Chas is right when she says "it's huge". Twi never imagined that when we quit, got booted or just faded away...that we would regroup on the other side of the fence with stories to tell...and now, we are their worst nightmare.
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dmiller
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Oakspear
Along the lines of the explosion of ex-wayfers on the message boards: much of the literature that was out in the 70's and 80's originated with ministers who had doctrinal beefs with TWI, or circulated what seemed like extreme exaggerations, e.g. the weapons training that was a hunter safety course, or the Way Corps eating out of trash cans.
One of the first things that I noticed on Waydale was that many of the stories were very similar to my own experiences. Things that I had chalked up to abberations, or "rogue Way Corps" were part of the nationwide pattern.
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dmiller
And I'll agree with your premise, RumRunner. Didn't mean to disagree in THAT respect. What I see as the main difference (thus the declaration by twi that the internet is *evil*), is that the internet is something they cannot control, can't sell in their bookstore, etc.
How many folks have ignored the many versions of the bible (other than KJV), simply because twi uses KJV, and no other version?? Lots. I know I did. And that is just using the example of the bible, and not even scratching the surface when it comes to other printed material. But since twi is in the business of printing their own material in book form, and selling it it for a fat prophet (scuze me ^^^COUGH^^^ -- I meant to say *profit*), they can't declare books evil. :)
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topoftheworld
On my very first post here, I mentioned about the years of living in ignorance after leaving TWI, making a life but still blaming myself for my "downfall". I heard a few things in those twenty plus years, but never enough to "flip the switch".
Then came the bounty of info through a simple Goggle search-and the light came on. If not for the Internet, I'd still be living in ignorance and self-condemnation. I think I can guarantee that even if I had found Karl's book, it wouldn't have been enough for me to swim out of the soup. It took sifting through all the info and hearing the first hand accounts to finally break the chains.
So, yeah, without the Internet, I'd still be stuck in Waybrain. But not anymore!!
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shortfuse
Thanks for the replies. I guess there is no magic bullet to take this twi-atch down. Every bit helps though.
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lindyhopper
I too first went to Waydale while still in. At first I thought that perhaps there were some people with axes to grind and some people with legitimate complaints and some people that were out to get the organization. At the time I let my own personal not so bad experience, outweigh what everyone here was saying.
I wasn't and still am not exactly a techno-sav. I only went to waydale because a close non-twi Christian, lindyhopping, female friend of mine was concerned because she knew I was in a cult and told me to check it out. Seven years ago in my blue collar, non-tech job, I never thought about typing in "twi" into a search engine. The times have changed much in just a few years.
The twi internet info did plant a seed. My not so bad experience was actually not all that great and I didn't even realise it. I think what got me thinking was the role-over of leaders in our area. Since I have left there have been some innies that believe I left because I had a bad bout with bad leadership. Not totally true. Not all of them were bad people or even bad leaders but when they left or were kicked out it made an impact on me and really made me think about my own life. Years earlier, when a girl that I was seriously dating left twi without an explaination, it hurt and made me think....a lot. I think that was kind of the begining of my transition. My parents were put on probation, twice. That made me think.
When sh!+ is hunky dorry and you have the blinders on and your eyes wide shut, you don't think much in twi. It takes bad things that happen to you or the ministry. It takes people around you leaving. Look at the "fog years." Look at the Allen law suit. People left. Leaders left and that caused a lot of people to leave.
IMO, for the twi to come crashing down, it takes a stir. A stir from within.
My original point was not that people in it will see the light by way of the internet, but that those that are thinking about going to this different sounding fellowship will. It seems that for quite some time now new foudational grads are largely coming of age innies. There is not a huge influx of new people. It is a different world and people have and will continue to come to places like this to see if it is kosher. That, IMO, is a major factor in the non-comeback of TWI. But for it to fall will take people making a visible or vocal stir. That could happen in a number of ways including a lawsuit but more likely by leaders speaking up and not shutting up.
For those of you that have gotten this far down on my post, thanks for reading. :)
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Twinky
TOTW
That's me you're talking about!
(Not quite 20 years, though). Heck, I was under so much guilt and condemnation, that once I decided the next 40(??) years couldn't be like that I think I would have eaten any humiliation to get back. Googled "TWI" and "GSC" came up. Waybrain said that all the GSC stuff was "a trick of the adversary" - but there was soooo much of it! Looks like things got even worse after I was M&A'd. The articles in the Editorial section really helped and the guilt evaporated shockingly quickly.
If I were to get involved in anything today (any new club or organisation of any kind) in a serious way, I'd do a Google search. Hopefully any "newbie" would. They wouldn't be impressed with the TWI site, which is pretty uninformative and very boring.
The mantle has moved on. TWI are "old prophets" (or "old wineskins"). Aren't old things that remind us of what held us back disposed of on "Uncle Harry Day"?
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What The Hey
The opinion I often run into and continually find that most people have is what was stated on another thread:
What it all boils down to is for the "people of this age" the things out on the internet is equivalent to the indesputable "word of God". Welcome to: Church on the Internet. Summing it up briefly (while refering to another thread at the same time) that is exactly what is "wrong with the Church today." What is wrong with the Church is people think they know what God wants the Church to be – basically, that’s what’s wrong with the Church today. People think the Church is all about their worship, about their church programs, their ministry, their meetings, their outreach and other logistics. "Church on the Internet" is a fine example of people attempting to do "church" their own way. Even local churches have web sites for someone to "hook-up" with them.
So many people today, even Christians, are just existing and not really living. They go day to day – from work – to home – to TV – to sleep; then get up - to work – to home – to TV – to sleep – it's the whole thing all over again. The problem is not so much with the Church itself per se, but that people have forgotten what authentic Christianity is about. Authentic Christianity is all about love. It is sacrificially serving your savior with your best friends. It’s not about the form of the Sunday morning service, the church’s programs, tweaking this and tweaking that and whatever other logistics there are. Authentic Christianity is NOT about logistics, it’s about love. Authentic Christianity is not a program or a meeting. Well - we can always tweak this and tweak that, but genuine, authentic Christianity is about sacrificially serving your savior with your best friends.
That’s the part American Christianity has been losing and continues to keep on losing. They’re all about doing their own ministry and doing it their own way. O.K. I’ve got my ministry. Now they are doing it on their own and it is always about them. But what was the example of our Lord Jesus Christ when he was on the earth? To briefly sum it up, his WHOLE life was about sacrificially serving his Father with his best friends. That’s how he lived - in community with other people, specifically his best friends. But in our American culture we are so independent. There are people even saying we don’t need the church anymore. They say the church is outdated and obsolete and that people can be authentic Christians on their own. Not according to scripture. Do you think the church is something man invented? NO! It is something God Himself created. It’s where you “plug into” the body of Christ and if you’re not plugged into the church you’re not plugged into Jesus Christ in a practical way. The “voices” are out there saying the church is dead, that it’s obsolete and one can “do it” all on their own. But God says differently. The church was His invention. Authentic Christianity is about sacrificially serving your savior with your best friends. In doing so you become a living example of the way our Lord Jesus Christ lived while he was on earth.
It’s not so much about what Christian fellowship or what church you belong to that matters. What it is about and what matters is; does the fellowship or the church you attend offer you opportunities to sacrificially serve your savior with your best friends? If not, than not I nor can anyone else for that matter make you devoted to the apostle’s doctrine – to the fellowship of believers; to the breaking of bread and to prayer. If the fellowship or the church you attend does not provide you with the opportunity to pursue authentic Christianity, then perhaps you should question the way you have been living. I know that’s the only way for any Christian to really live, the way my savior lived. The only question a Christian must ask themselves is – how am I going to accomplish that – that is, pursue genuine Christianity? If you try to keep your life to yourself and for yourself, then you’re just going to lose it. There is nothing more important in life than following the Lord Jesus Christ. But if you want to follow him, then you must deny yourself. You must pick up your cross and follow him, because whoever tries to keep his life for himself will lose it. It will only turn out worthless – it won’t matter. But if you lose your life for me, Jesus says, you will find it. (Matthew 16: 24-26)
Look. You don’t have to pray about that, think about that, or even get Christian counsel about that. I can tell you that is God’s will for your life 100 percent. My Christian brothers and sisters this is not a game! This is not a program or a meeting. This is God’s will for your life!!! A day is coming when you and I will both stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and we’re going to know that His Church was not a game. This is His plan, His vehicle, His family, and He, God Almighty meant for you and I both to live authentic, genuine, Christianity. The only question that remains is: How are you and I going to do that? It all starts by fellowshipping with those who want to do Gods Will and will also help you do exactly what it is what God wants you to do. The early church always found a way to do that - to devote themselves to the apostles doctrine - and they didn't have computers or the Internet. The point I am making is the early church found a way to make it happen. One day God will be talking with you and I about how it happened today.
Now I want you to remember this. Those people, the early Christians were meeting together every day. Where? In their homes! Amazing! I am sure we all think that we’re way too busy for that today. Now I’m not asking any of you to meet me in my home every day. Many of you are too far away! Besides, I don’t want you in my house every day. But those people had families. They had jobs. They were busy too and they still found a way to devote themselves to learning and to applying the apostles teaching. They devoted themselves to their fellowship – to their Christian friendships, and to prayer and to the Lords supper. The point I am making is they found a way to practice authentic, genuine Christianity and the logistics took care of themselves. But today all we Christians do is concern ourselves with the logisitics of the Church, then wonder why we no longer have the time to devote ourselves to the apostles doctrine and the practice of genuine, authentic Christianity.
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sprawled out
hey, what the hey, if you want to devote yourself to christian fellowship in homes every day, in spite of the fact that you have a family, job, a life, etc., let me tell about this group that would be happy to load you up. they started in rural ohio, back in 1942...
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Twinky
The impact of the internet might well be to assist those who want to do just that, and to avoid those who talk about doing it and do otherwise - make it a "game". Seeing what's on GSC, would you want to join TWI (a church)?
(Though there might well be (and certainly were) some fine folks locally who really did live the life - that's true of any church/denomination).
Can't remember the beginning of this thread.
If it was about the internet replacing "church", not possible, have to agree with you, WhatTheHey. Internet cannot replace personal contact.
If it was about using the internet to avoid and expose harmful organizations, it encourages the individual to use his or her judgment a little more carefully. Has to be beneficial.
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What The Hey
Initially I was going to post my reply on the: "What's wrong with the Church" thread, but I posted it on this thread because for many people the Internet is the predominant way many people are connecting with one another. I wasn't criticizing the use of the Internet per se, other than for many people it is and has become a replacement for genuine fellowship.
Because of some people's past experiences (most notably in TWI) some missed the point I was making. Genuine Christianity is not just about meeting together or about meeting frequently in each others homes. It’s not just about eating and drinking coffee or having a doughnut together. All of that is logistics. Now sometimes it can be and it is doing those things together. But at the core of what we do as Christians should always be following the commands the Lord gave us, and there are over 100 commands in the New Testament for us to love one another. The point I was and am making is this: How are you going to practically do what the Lord has commanded?
One can’t practically carry out the Lords commands effectively by chatting with someone on-line or by posting messages on a web site. Truthfully one can’t carry out the Lords commands effectively by meeting once a week in a Sunday service - which predominates American Christianity today. Certainly one can make acquaintances doing those things, but those things are not conducive to producing real and meaningful friendships. I think Elena S. Whiteside addresses the same problem to some extent in the book: "God's Word in Culture" specifically the chapter on "The State of the Union". In that chapter she talks about Tony Manero, the hero of "Saturday Night Fever". The story revolves around Tony Manero, a nineteen year old who works a drab job selling paint - his life consisting of work, hanging out with his buddies and then the high point - dressing up and going to the local disco on Saturday night. It's there in the "disco" where Tony receives recognition, praise admiration and validation - where he can "be somebody". But today the Internet is the replacement for the 1970's disco. It's the place where someone who is typically a nobody can receive recognition, praise, admiration and validation from their peers.
As Elena Whiteside put it, "What is there for the Tony Manero of today?" The answer to that is that today there is the Internet. It's just another one of today's theives, sucking off peoples lives like a vacuum cleaner right out of life and living. "These theives have only as much influence over people as the people allow them to have," as Elena Whiteside put it. But people are subject to these influences, because in contrast, their surroundings are so overwhelmingly drab, dull, secondhand that TV, drugs, and dropping out seem the lesser of two evils. To that strange mix one can add the Internet. Evils, nevertheless, are both alternatives. TV, drugs, dropping out and the Internet just steal from us the experience of life and the reason to develop meaningful relationships with one another.
On the surface there is nothing wrong with the Internet any more than TV. These forms of media can be and are great avenues for learning. But on the other side of the coin, the Internet I believe gives one greater access to "instant gratification" than what TV ever did. That is why time now spent on-line is near or greater than the amount of time that one use to spend in front of the "boob tube". But these are just the conditions of our consumer society, and one can more easily change a condition after it has been recognized and defined.
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Belle
Then, this is why you were misunderstood - you posted off topic on the wrong thread. THIS thread is about the impact of the internet on exposing evil organizations like TWI.
Well, carrying out the Lord's command to love one another and "producting real and meaningful friendships" are two totally different things, imo. The Good Samaritan didn't make real and meaningful friends with the man he helped for all we know... he merely took care of the man's needs at the time. Same with Jesus, actually. He didn't make "real and meaningful friendships" with everyone he met. He just "shared the love" so to speak.
Actually, I have helped quite a few folks here at the Cafe (if the PM's I get are any indication). I do post here to help people and to "share the love" as we are commanded. I have even made "real and meaningful friendships" with not a few folks on here, but most of those are through them helping me and not vice versa.
I believe you get out of it what you put into it. *shrug* I also believe in balance and when I read posts like yours it seems awfully condescending and extreme - not taking into account the fact that most of us are NOT Tony Whatshisname, nor anything like him. Limit God to what you think he's capable of, but I won't. I've seen him work through the internet just like he can and does in "real life" way too many times.
I firmly believe that TWI and organizations like it - including Scientology - have been severely hurt by the advent of the Internet. I also believe that our younger generations are much smarter and much more inclined to check out all sides of an issue before turning their lives over to a group that attempts to control people the way they do. Heck, all we need now is a Tom Cruise kind of character to add to the bad publicity TWI gets.
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WordWolf
From the way this was written, one might think that there was such thing as the internet when EW wrote
her book. WTH is extrapolating from her at one place, and citing her in an attempt to support his point
in another. The result appears as if WTH is saying EW wrote ABOUT the internet when she wrote this book.
Man, twi really hated Travolta. "Saturday Night Live" was evil,
and "Staying Alive" was plagiarized INTENTIONALLY to make AOS (off the "Satan's Alley" sequence.)
I can only imagine what lcm said once Travolta became a Scientologist...
[Ok, all of that was what EW said, and as far as it goes, it's correct-
but it doesn't address that this is also just plain what he does for FUN.
I find saying Manero discoed for "validation" is reading too much into the movie.
That Manero was passionate about "dance" as opposed to doing it for the
"pat on the back" becomes more obvious when seeing the sequel.
He's dedicated hundreds of hours of rehearsal a week, and many hours going to
auditions, only to be sent home and face rejection EVERY TIME.
That was thus the opposite of "validation" EACH TIME.]
[At its heart, the Internet is a method of communication and information-exchange
between people. Some of us find the communication and information-exchange all by itself
is a laudable goal all by itself.
Then again, I suspect that those who don't GET "recognition", "praise", "admiration"
or "validation" for just going about their business might well claim that this is the ONLY
goal, and further that it is to be despised.
Meanwhile, a few seconds' search gave me the information I was looking for,
which illustrates my point. It predates the internet by nearly 2000 years.
"One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."
Aesop had a point to make there...]
[it is her opinion that there has to be an answer to that.People doing things for the love of doing them has been an element for society as long as
there has BEEN society. I assert that Jubal wouldn't have been the de facto inventor of
music if he didn't like music, and Tubal-Cain wouldn't have invented smithing if he didn't
find a joy in building things that last.
Then again, the recognition inherent in the tasks might cause one to say that the reason
they did either was "for validation."
On the other hand, people hotdogging and doing things just to get the credit for doing them
has a long history in society as well, probably as long as there has BEEN society.
So,
this really is unsupported.
Further, she said nothing about the Internet, which didn't exist back then.
Connecting her unsupported supposition and its supposed correctness
to this discussion is the supposition of WTH.]
[some people value the information they can receive at their fingertips at a moment's notice.
With a few seconds' work, you can download Aesop's Fables, the most classical of literature,
tools for use with a Bible, valuable medical knowledge or knowledge of ANY area of study,
or just communication and friendship.
It can be used for entertainment, for news, for knowledge, for friendship.
Ignoring one of those uses entirely does it-and yourself-a disservice.]
[Or they can add immeasurably to one's life.The printing press can be used to produce trash magazines of negligible quality,
and it can produce medical journals and Bibles.
To ignore the latter uses is to does it-and yourself-a disservice.
Perhaps it is the PERSON and not the TOOL that determines its utility-or its uselessness.]
[You proved my point. Television can be used for education as well as entertainment.
(Or both at the same time, as GOOD education is INTERESTING, often, especially on TV.)
The great ADVANTAGE in utility of the internet over the television is that the user CONTROLS THE
EXPERIENCE. He posts and interacts with others, and he determines which of the billions and billions of
websites he is going to spend time on.]
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tonto
This idea that the duty and routine of daily living is "just existing and not really living" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. The same thinking was promoted in twi. Like God can't work in small ways, like the small but necessary things of life aren't "doing the word". How many times in twi did I hear before we were to go witnessing "you never know...you might just witness to the next apostle Paul"...as if just speaking the right words to someone at the right time isn't just as important to God. Geez...this mentality that God's will for our lives has to be flash and pizazz and just one "mountaintop experience" after another...I don't buy it.
After almost 20 years out of twi, I still wake up and most days and thank God that I have a routine...that I get to work at real job and live in my very own house and watch tv when I want and sleep...aaah...I'm still catching up on all the sleep I missed back in waydaze..
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waysider
Consider for a moment what it might be like to be blind. No body language, no telltale facial expressions, no way of knowing whether the other person is fashion conscious or sporting the latest hairstyle, and yet communication takes place. How? by the greatest tool of communication ever; words. The internet is filled to overflowing with words and it is up to each individual how much and what type of meaning to give those words. We can play "name that tune", share something that is "just plain silly", or even ponder the discussions in the "doctrinal" and decide if we would like to try these ideas in " real life". It is true, at least in my opinion, that no machine can replace person to person interaction, but let's not allow ourselves to deny the existance or value of relationships that can and most certainly do exist on the internet. With that said, we must also develope a keen sense of awareness that will safeguard us from those absent visual clues.
----------------------------------HERE'S TO GOOD FRIENDS!------------------------------------------
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igotout
As I see it, TWI and "Scary Geery Bus Driver" purposely have no open interactive sites like other religious groups do because they have too many skeletons in their closets. Am I right excathedra? Where are their My Spaces, email addresses and "Contact Us info? Busboy doesn't even have a website. What's up with that?
IMHO they're trying to cover up their past and present forms of behavior and abuse as well as their house of cards teachings. I can hear it now from certain Geerites I know. " God told me not to go on the Internet and read posts " or "God told me not to communicate with you."
Typical dumbell, legalist, idolatrous behavior. Can't blind followers see that certain leaders are taking advantage of them using their hard earned cash to help them coast into a prosperous retirement in the near term future?
John R
Tampa, FL
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dmiller
"Hey!! I'm just *hanging out*. No e-mails, please!"
<_<
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What The Hey
You went on and made my case even better than I did WW. That is the main reason why time spent on the Internet has matched and for the most part out-paced the time that used to be spent in front of the TV set - the Internet is far more addictive than the "boob tube" ever was. The reason the Internet is highly addictive is because the "user" can selectively tune out whatever unpleasant elements he or she doesn't like and interact with the more pleasant ones. The addicted Internet user in essence creates their own distorted reality of life by avoiding the conflicts that are inherent in interpersonal relationships. The reality of life is: Genuine relationships contain conflict. That is the inescapable fact of real life here in the real word. That is not necessarily always the case in the virtual world. If there were no conflict, there would be no genuine relationship.
The sad truth is the addicted Internet user ends up paying a very high price for this distorted reality of life and living much like the addicted drug user does. And it is a drug. Now no addicted drug user will ever admit to you openly that they are hooked or addicted. Rather the opposite is the case. Most drug users will tell you they can quit the drug they've been using at the drop of a hat with no side effects. Most Internet users can't go more than 24 hrs. without another "fix" - without "hooking up" and going on-line. We have all heard stories of marriages that have been dissolved and strained because the spouse was addicted to Internet porn. I'm just citing one example where the Internet has made pornography easy and accessible where before the days of the Internet that was not the case. Today one can spare themselves the possible embarrassment of meeting someone they would rather not meet by visiting adult web sites rather than risk meeting somebody coming out of the adult book store that used to be on the shady side of town. Today the Interent has completely taken away that "unpleasant" risk for those addicted to pornography. The Interent has completely taken away the possibility of any conflict out of that relationship today, but it certainly hasn't taken away any of the cost.
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