TWI was great

[markomalley]

Since Im on the subject of how great the old avatars were

where's Maximilian Kobe gone to Mr. OMalley?

I changed ISPs and forgot to move the avatar over.

How about this one:

Blessed Charles de Foucauld, priest, martyr

CHARLES DE FOUCAULD (Brother Charles of Jesus) was born in Strasbourg, France on September 15th, 1858. Orphaned at the age of six, he and his sister Marie were raised by their grandfather in whose footsteps he followed by taking up a military career.

He lost his faith as an adolescent.His taste for easy living was well known to all and yet he showed that he could be strong willed and constant in difficult situations. He undertook a risky exploration of Morocco (1883-1884). Seeing the way Muslims expressed their faith questioned him and he began repeating, “My God, if you exist, let me come to know you.”

On his return to France, the warm, respectful welcome he received from his deeply Christian family made him continue his search. Under the guidance of Fr. Huvelin he rediscovered God in October 1886.He was then 28 years old. “As soon as I believed in God, I understood that I could not do otherwise than to live for him alone.”

A pilgrimage to the Holy Land revealed his vocation to him: to follow Jesus in his life at Nazareth.He spent 7 years as a Trappist, first in France and then at Akbès in Syria. Later he began to lead a life of prayer and adoration, alone, near a convent of Poor Clares in Nazareth.

Ordained a priest at 43 (1901) he left for the Sahara, living at first in Beni Abbès and later at Tamanrasset among the Tuaregs of the Hoggar. He wanted to be among those who were, “the furthest removed, the most abandoned.” He wanted all who drew close to him to find in him a brother, “a universal brother.” In a great respect for the culture and faith of those among whom he lived, his desire was to “shout the Gospel with his life”. “I would like to be sufficiently good that people would say, “If such is the servant, what must the Master be like?”

On the evening of December 1st 1916, he was killed by a band of marauders who had encircled his house.

He had always dreamed of sharing his vocation with others: after having written several rules for religious life, he came to the conclusion that this “life of Nazareth” could be led by all. Today the “spiritual family of Charles de Foucauld” encompasses several associations of the faithful, religious communities and secular institutes for both lay people and priests.

Some quotes:

• 'Jesus took the lowest place in such a way that no one has ever been able to take it away from him."
  
• “I no longer want a monastery which is too secure. I want a small monastery, like the house of a poor workman who is not sure if tomorrow he will find work and bread, who with all his being shares the suffering of the world.”
  
• "Ask yourself in each situation: 'What would the Lord have done' and do that. This is the only absolute rule."
  
• "Faith is incompatible with pride, vanity and the desire of esteem of others. To believe, we must humble ourselves."
  

Some notes on his spirituality:

After a variety of experiences as a Trappist monk and a time spent in the Holy Land, he conceived of a new form of religious life, a life closer to the daily lives of the poor. As Jesus at Nazareth, he wanted to live amidst the people, rooted in a culture, sharing the condition of those who live from day to day by the work of their hands-- of those who have no security at all and who are the poorest of the poor.

He did not envision preaching the Gospel in words as such, but by crying it out with the witness of his whole life; a life lived in shared friendship, silence and prayer. He wanted to go beyond all of the boundaries of religion and race and to become known as a "universal little brother"; the little brother of his beloved Jesus.

Brother Charles hoped to found small fraternities of brothers..."What I dream of is something very plain and few in number, similar to the little communities of the first Christians...living the life of Nazareth, through work and the contemplation of Jesus...a little family, a little home, very small, very plain"... This dream would not be realized until after his death.

Bl. Charles' prayer of abandonment:

Father, I abandon myself into Your hands;

do with me what You will.

Whatever You do I thank You.

I am ready for all, I accept all.

Let only Your will be done in me,

as in all Your creatures,

I ask no more than this, my Lord.

Into Your hands I commend my soul;

I offer it to You, O Lord,

with all the love of my heart,

for I love You, my God, and so need to give myself--

to surrender myself into Your hands,

without reserve and with total confidence,

for You are my Father.

[George Aar]

Cool, thanks Mark,

I feel like my old self again...

[mstar1]

Lookin good Geo!

-----

That sounds like an worthy guy Mark----Interesting that he became serious in his faith by observing Muslims

is there a name for crossfaith 'witnessing' ?

Not as dramatic as Brother Charles but Im a little partial to this guy...

I dont know that much about him other than ".....Spent most of the next 50 years working in stained glass and painting images on the windows of churches..."

Im intrigued-I have to go find some of his windows.....

whats this thread about?

o yea

wayworld

The longer I am away --the more it seems like waxing nostalgic for elementary school, or Jr. High School--- To me its just not all that relevant anymore

Edited December 3, 2006 by mstar1

[markomalley]

Lookin good Geo!

-----

That sounds like an worthy guy Mark----Interesting that he became serious in his faith by observing Muslims

is there a name for crossfaith 'witnessing' ?

Not as dramatic as Brother Charles but Im a little partial to this guy...

I dont know that much about him other than ".....Spent most of the next 50 years working in stained glass and painting images on the windows of churches..."

Im intrigued-I have to go find some of his windows.....

whats this thread about?

o yea

wayworld

The longer I am away --the more it seems like waxing nostalgic for elementary school, or Jr. High School--- To me its just not all that relevant anymore

Ah yes, Blessed James Grissinger (yes, I had to look)

Well, I spent a few years in muslim territory. One thing that struck me was a devotion to prayer. (A lot of things struck me in a negative fashion about the religion...but prayer wasn't one of them)

[CoolWaters]

The 80's huh? You're remembering the 80's?

Here's what twi was in the 80's for me and mine and some others: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4233

All 9 all the time, huh? If you're talking about getting all 9 kids in CF to do the nasty with the leadership all the time...yeah...twi got that right...

[WhiteDove]

Pat

I learned the Word of God is our only rule of faith and practice,but it was in the 70s. However you might have noticed it does not seem to be a popular point of view here It's about as popular as a union leader at a Walmart store. It's a tough crowd but they can be tougher...............

[WordWolf]

Pat

I learned the Word of God is our only rule of faith and practice,but it was in the 70s. However you might have noticed it does not seem to be a popular point of view here It's about as popular as a union leader at a Walmart store. It's a tough crowd but they can be tougher...............

Actually, Pat, I must make a correction.

As you might have noticed, "it" ("the Word of God is our only rule of faith and practice")

is not an opinion universally-held here.

However, quite a number of people DO hold it, and I'd say more than 1/2 the regular posters

are at least comfortable with the doctrine, whether or not they agree with it entirely or

mostly.

However,

it seems that "it" ("the Word of God is our only rule of faith and practice")

keeps getting confused-by some people- with

"something else" ("the Word of God was TWI's only rule of faith and practice")

and the majority of us say that "something else" was proven to be

COMPLETELY FALSE,

and that twi CLAIMED this (and claims it NOW) while following whatever

practice suits the office-holders, who then invoke a semblance of the verses

to justify the rules of faith and practice that they've already determined.

Generally,

so long as one isn't pushing that agenda

(or the "vpw never victimized anyone" agenda),

this is NOT a "tough crowd."

[waysider]

I,too, was around in the '70's. The dichotomy of values was already in place. It was not nearly as visably because the hierarchy was so small in comparison to the number of people at the twig level who,for the most part, had genuine desire to see the Truth as they knew it become a living reality. Much of what happened I only now am starting to understand as I look at it in retrospect. But yes, many of these things being discussed were in fact already taking place in the '70's.

[Patrick and Sarah]

Howdy Folks,

I learned alot from this thread.

I'd say I was a bit narrowminded when I first posted it.

I came to the realization that I was not nearly as devastated from TWI as a lot of folks where and are. When I got back from Korea, the breakup had already occurred.

I was only involved with the actual TWI for less then a year. I went to one ROA and then got sent to Korea. After Korea I hooked up with the folks who chose not to choose a loyalty of men...........So heck what do I know? Not much.

Thanks for the replies and the personal messages.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Patrick and Sarah

[waysider]

Stop by for a visit any time. I'd like to tell you there will be a Danish and coffee waiting for you but I'm not in charge of refreshments.

[Raf]

Patrick and Sara,

While I still have my website up, you might want to poke around a little bit. You won't agree with everything, but think about it a little.

Raf

Click on the icon to go there.

[WhiteDove]

However,

it seems that "it" ("the Word of God is our only rule of faith and practice")

keeps getting confused-by some people- with

"something else" ("the Word of God was TWI's only rule of faith and practice")

and the majority of us say that "something else" was proven to be

COMPLETELY FALSE,

and that twi CLAIMED this (and claims it NOW) while following whatever

practice suits the office-holders, who then invoke a semblance of the verses

to justify the rules of faith and practice that they've already determined

.

WW I have never claimed that The Way always followed this, only that they taught it and each one could regardless of or independant of their actions ,could choose to do it themselves anyway.

You know as well as I do that is not widely accepted here it is seen as waybrain. I see very few that will acknowledge that this idea is true.

Here is a typical response when you post anything like that. Hardly acceptance generally a smart a s s answer.

"yeah right dove the word of god is the will of god etc only if you do it our way crapolla to them all"

[waysider]

"The Word of God is our only rule of faith and practise."

If not even one person here subscribed to that philosophy(Yes, the dreaded P word) the point would still be moot because it is up to TWI to live up to its' own professed creed.

Like Donnie used to say: "Do It!" (That's the literal translation according to usage for the word "practise" as used above in that catchy slogan.)

[WordWolf]

But that's the point-

twi drew near to God with their words ("The Word of God is our only rule of faith and practice")

but their actions were often VERY far from Him. (vpw trolling "Birth to the Corps" papers looking for the

next chick to drug and rape.)

One of the main points is that this happened;

another is the glib hypocrisy this exposes-

"Do as I say, not as I do-

and if what I say doesn't match God's Word, do what I say anyway."

It WAS "only if you do it our way", which WAS "crapola".

Dissent-even if based on Scripture-has never been popular at twi- especially when it was vpw or lcm

being addressed (and let's not even mention rfr.)

vpw put forth he was some sort of godly maverick who stood up categorically against the religious figures

of his day,

but stand up to vpw and you're on a bus home. Oh, and don't bother contacting anyone-they've all been

told you're possessed.

So, they taught-at times- that the Bible should be the only rule for faith and practice.

At other times, they were CRYSTAL CLEAR that you'd best do what you're told,

or there will be Trouble.

With a capital T and that rhymes with V

and that stands for Victor Paul Wierwille,

founder of twi and founder of trouble in twi.

[Belle]

Welcome Patrick and Sarah!

I'll take your order, but please know your first order and cups up of coffee are on the house.

Here are some delightful delicacies for you to munch on while reading and chatting:

May I ask what it is about TWI that makes you think you want to go back or find something similar? Is it the teachings? Do you think that churches don't teach the same things? Have you been to any churches recently?

What, specifically, do you two want and need for your "spiritual nurturing"?

I'm not certain how much you've actually looked into, studied and evaluated "what is good" in TWI doctrine, but many of us, upon closer examination have realized that we were not REALLY "making the Word our own", but rather re-reading and parroting what was taught to us.

Raf's site has some great studies including evaluations of what was right and wrong with "The Blue Book" and JBarrax has a site that he keeps up for folks like us. It's a record of his study and evaluation of PFAL from a viewpoint of defending the doctrines, teachings and scripture interpretation from the dissenters you read here. Interestingly, JBarrax came to the same conclusion that we did - PFAL is chock full of lies, errors, private interpretation and deliberate manipulation by vp weirwille.

This valuable and insightful research can be found at: PFAL Review. I highly recommend reading through this if you are still craving the teachings of TWI.

If it's the fun, fellowship, unconditional love and support that you crave, that definitely is NOT at TWI - all the true loving folks have been run off and, in my personal opinion, are NOT to be found in any TWI-wannabe ministry either. The true Christians have shaken the dust of TWI and it's teachings off their feet and are found among other true living, breathing, loving, caring, giving Christians - many of whom are right here. (Many awesome folks of other and non-beliefs, too! ) It's amazing what one can find, learn, see and feel when we take of TWIt glasses and quit drinking the kool-aid.

Now, what can I get you folks?

Geo, it's SOOOooooo good to see you back to your regular self!! Love seeing that avatar again!

Now Mark, when're ya gonna change yours back, too?

[WhiteDove]

WW I have not disputed that that did happen at times maybe more than not I did not keep track. The fact remains one should and could have stood for what scriptures say, regardless of the cost or the bus ride home.. We all have that choice to make each day hour and sometimes minute. Here is another thing VP taught

"Do what God tells you to do not what people think you should do" VPW

"God gave his Word, in the written form, the reason being that He might interpret Himself and His will to us and for us. The Word of God is the Will of God, and no man or woman can really know the Will of God, without knowing the Word of God. To know God's Word you can not go by tradition, you can not go by the history of so called Christendom, you have to go back to the integrity of the Word. You can not go by what men say, by what theologians say, by what clergy or by what anyone else may say, you have to come back to the Word of God" VPW

I would have asked how they harmonize these apparent discrepancies . That puts the burden on them to explain their point from a biblical perspective. It may not have gone well but at least one could leave knowing that they had no scriptural evidence for what they wanted.

[pond]

you know white dove I think life is kind of like that as well.

the other day at work i had to disagree with the majority and state my piece on something that disagreed with the normal (and easier) manner of doing something.

it made me unpopular. very unpopular. the boss agreed with me and things got changed.

did I feel good? it made more work for everyone. But it was the right thing to do.

um no but I remember why I am there it I always hope it isnt just to be a mindless smuck.

I think God looks on His creation as something to have a relationship with as well and well relationship takes trust time and work.. to just say well

"everyone does it this way" or" they will be angry at me now"

(both of which i metioned to the boss yesterday with real concerns for the scene .) is an excuse, and just not good enough for me anymore. not when I care.

and I claim to Love God and also worship HIM sooo it can and does get in the thick of things but He being as almighty as He is gave my life to Jesus who knows the truth beyond I will ever and I learned to trust him and me together through life.

it is more peaceful this way

Edited December 5, 2006 by pond

[waysider]

White Dove-----------You have quoted VPW as saying:

"Do what God tells you to do, not what people think you should do."

Surely you must realize that he also said that when a "man of God" speaks, it is equivalent to God speaking .

A suggestion, request or demand from a leader was to be interpreted as being "the" word of God.

Questioning the man of God was equivalent to arguing with God. You will find this on page 10 of the AC(advanced class) syllabus. One of the scripture references given is Acts 9:13-15.

In addition, you will find ( also on page 10) the admonition that revelation can change as circumstances change.

I Samuel 23: 10-18 is but one example that was cited.

This may be a bit off topic but he also taught in this same class that"Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite

to revelation." He used II Cor. 4:16 to "selectively" prove his opinion on this. That is utter nonsense.

Does this mean that the person who has never SIT(spoken in tongues) can't possibly receive revelation from God? According to VPW(Victor Paul Wierwille) , the answer would be yes.

Now, as to your reference to VPW saying "You can't go by-----------what the clergy say." may I remind you that he originally made these statements before there were any TWI clergy in place. He was using this diatribe to disparage "denominational" clergy. His stance on clergy was that the only TRUE clergy were those who God himself had ordained. So in essence , when he said "do what God tells you to do" he was saying that TWI clergy were 1) Ordained of God and 2) When they spoke you would be foolhardy to argue because you were virtually arguing with God.( Arguing with God would seem to be a bad thing, don't you think?)

[Patrick and Sarah]

OK, Belle

Thanks for the coffee and welcome

""What, specifically, do you two want and need for your "spiritual nurturing"? ""

I don't think that anything will work for our spiritual nurturing if I don't make some life changes. I applied for another Job and they loved me........But looks like more of the same for a buck more an hour..............

I pretty much agree with you. Out with the old........the old TWI will not work in our lives now.

As far as checking out churches, sure a bit, but we have some dilemmas that keep us from getting too close. One of them is my schedual. The others can be worked through bet we have to fix the schedual thing first.

Thanks for your care

[coolchef]

belle gee i wish i would have said that!!!!!

[dmiller]

I don't think that anything will work for our spiritual nurturing if I don't make some life changes. I applied for another Job and they loved me........But looks like more of the same for a buck more an hour..............

I pretty much agree with you. Out with the old........the old TWI will not work in our lives now.

P & S --welcome to GreaseSpot.:)

There is no *old twi* anymore (as I understand it).

The *new and improved* twi doesn't recognize it anymore either.

However there are offshoots, like CFFM that teach a lot of stuff from docvic.

And there is also CES/ STFI, who hang on to docvic's teachings,

but are moving on from them, and into new territory (especially in the Holy Spirit field).

I looked for a CES fellowship for the Albequerque (sp?) area for you, and there is nothing nearby your area.

If you're looking for an honest, *down home* fellowship with God-loving believers ---

there are probably many in your area. Personally -- I found one in a Baptist church several years ago.

I also found one in a Messianic Jewish church and also one in a non-denominational Evangelical church.

For reasons of my own -- I've moved on from each of those, but the fact remains,

there's good people right where you are.:)

Not meaning to derail here or get but what do you do for a living??

I read you mentioned the 24 hour shift, and I wondered if you were in health-care, or a group home?

I work at a group home, and am familiar with the 24 hour shifts,

and the nights and the week-ends as well.

Regardless -- welcome, and I'll be putting in prayers for a job relocation for you,

that meets your needs, so you can take care of your other needs. :)

David

[Kit Sober]

P&S,

Welcome also from me, and keeping you in my prayers for good success in your location.

(It seems that some find Greasespot a kind of "church" in the grouping together for fellowship format.)

Hopefully,

[Patrick and Sarah]

P & S --welcome to GreaseSpot.:)

Not meaning to derail here or get but what do you do for a living??

I read you mentioned the 24 hour shift, and I wondered if you were in health-care, or a group home?

I work at a group home, and am familiar with the 24 hour shifts,

and the nights and the week-ends as well.

Regardless -- welcome, and I'll be putting in prayers for a job relocation for you,

that meets your needs, so you can take care of your other needs. :)

David

My 24 hour shift is a security Job. I sit in my truck and read a book. Finnished my Robert Ludlum book last week. Saterday evening through sunday eveneing.

My full time job is Machinist 2nd shift.

Thanks for asking. The Job I'm going to turn down was another machining job with worse 2nd shift hours, bene's little more expensive..........Can't give into temptation there.

[Belle]

(((((Patrick & Sarah)))))

I'll be praying for you, including an awesome job for you with great pay and better hours. :) What would you *like* do do? Given no barriers, what would your dream job be?

We see lots of answers to prayer here at the cafe. You'd be amazed at some of them.

Regarding spiritual needs - and I'm just thinking out loud here - you most likely have thought about and/or done these things....

The churches that offer home fellowship groups (and there are lots of them), typically meet on non-traditional "church" times and may have some for y'all to choose from that would be convenient location and time-wise. The ones I know of in Orlando don't require or expect you to attend "regular" services or anything in order to participate in the home groups. The purpose of the home groups is to meet the needs of folks with funky schedules like yours as well as other needs in the community.

You and Sarah could study together - starting with, perhaps, a topic of religious belief in general, a Bible story or character that resonates with you two. Look up stuff online - go to the library - hang out in the Doctrinal area of the boards here - there are quite a few of folks here who love sharing, discussing and learning from one another (there are the debaters, too, but you don't have to engage or acknowledge them if they are annoying. ;) ) ... do your own thing on your own time.

I know you said you weren't involved with TWI for very long, but two books that may open areas of discussion and/or thought for you are "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by two folks I can't remember and "Releasing the Bonds: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" by Steve Hassan. If nothing else, these two books will help you see what to look for and what to be aware of when you do go searching for a "church home".

We have a great group of folks here who have all followed different paths since leaving TWI and are resident experts in the areas of their study. I've learned a lot from these folks and looked into the history of religion, belief systems, etc. in general and Christianity in particular from sources I would have never heard of otherwise. There's just so much more to life and living than the tiny little cult teachings of TWI and the offshoots, imo.

I truly believe you'll find what works for you two and fits into your lives, fills your needs and brings peace to your home. Keep on keepin' on! We're here to help, support, listen, start food fights, whatever....

[lindyhopper]

You know all this talk got me thinking when I saw a sign the other day. I was at the Denver CU campus the other night for a talk and fund raiser with John Fielder, an amazing landscape photographer. Passing through the halls we passed a study area. The sign on the door said, "Do not become a victim of theft. Don't leave your belongings unattended."

It seems we have gotten to a place where we all know a sign saying "Do not steal" would not work. To put it in old English, "Thou shall not steal," at a state school would probalby be protested and torn down. lol We've excepted that people are going to steal and the ownous is now squarely on the victim. Don't become one, it is your responsibility.

Of course this is true to a degree. Most cases of person to person crime could have been avoided in one way or the other. The girl who has been raped was obviously showing a little too much leg in that short skirt. Or, didn't she know that when the guy bought her dinner he thought it came with sex afterwards? Give me a break, right? She knew that. I could have avoided being mugged twice had I only traveled two by two everywhere and not have gone into the city....where people get mugged. If I would have then reported it to the police, they would have caught that young black male wearing baggy clothes. I mean it is a no brainer. Don't trust people, that is naive. Always look over your shoulder and for God's sake, don't take your minister's word for it...or your doctor's....or your school teacher's...or police officer's...and especially not a nun's. If you do and something happens, you should have known better, people are not to be trusted. God on the other hand is.

If something that God says doesn't happen..... well, you know...... it's on you.

Those that steal are going to steal. Those that rape are going to rape. Those that lie are going to lie. If these things happen to you, you should have seen it coming and changed your actions.

What we needed in twi were more of these "don't become a victim" signs. At every fellowship there should have been a sign saying, "Don't become a victim, check every teaching and reproof with THE Word and confront your leader if it is wrong." We're human, we need these reminders. We should have know THE correct interpretation of THE Word and known when we were being bamboozled. Your fault if you didn't.

The real question is which is worse, the bamboozler or the bamboozleee (sorry for the yoddleing) who could have seen it coming if they had only seen it?

Edited December 6, 2006 by lindyhopper