I drank and got drunk when i was young for the peer pressure at times, but since then i never had the desire to get drunk i can have some alcohol but never would I consider losing my ability to think clearly and one or two for the taste a night is all i would do.
my sister gets drunk my son gets drunk. my father got drunk.
i think they have problems because of it as well although all are really doing well by any of the standards of the day.
my question, how does one want to get drunk?
why would anyone want to be stupid puke all of what it is?
what is the darn attraction to that?
i do not get this my son said it is because they are "weak" which i do not get because booze just makes you more stupid and weaker .
maybe to forget your problems while your drunk but it adds more the next day probably would anyone chose to drink?
alcoholics claim to have no control over alcohol... come on alcohol is only aliquid not a force to be dealt with like people or etc.
what they have no control over is their own mind and how they deal with issues in life and the habit of using a drug to numb the awarenes of it.
so stop drinking and you still have a person unable to cope or deal ot learn how to do life in a standard that allows a quality of life.
I think that is why it is so difficult to stop drinking. because the keys to living successfully are absent.. and a bad habit of being drunk is what they know how to do well. so they do that instead.
but i give kudos to those who think they have accomplished something in life by being sober funny tho most of us do it every single of our life without a second thought or wanting respect or admiration for it.
It is normal to be sober, no big deal , EXCEPT in the alcoholic circles and fellowships in that society it is an achievment !! i just do not buy it .
I do not think the ability to stay sober is an achievment i think it is a sad commentary on the person and how they have managed their life.
it is good thing they decide not to be a drunk yep but they get no stars from me.
that is why AA is good they get to hang with others who life is a focus of staying sober.. which HELLO is not most people only alcoholics.
i know lots of folks who have abused alcohol.. and then they decide to stop whether it is because they have kids get a new job or health or tired of the money it costs they do not go to AA they just live normal like everyone eles in life and chose not to use alcohol to cope or drink, they do not go to AA to find support because it is not neccesary for them to have a group to live life without a booze.
so why do some need it then? for support? plenty of sober people in life, so I do not get it really.
it isnt like everyone is a alocoholic mostly drinkers hang with drinkers, so find some new friends. it isnt that complicated.
it seems to me they take the focus of their life from BOOZE to the whole AA thing and now focus on that .. still not living very well or coping very well ... or functioning in the norms of society without AA.
sure if you need constant reassureence that booze is bad bad bad and not good for you anymore.. go but is that really a normal functioning life ?
how does it address the reason you did chose to abuse alcohol?
o and please do not tell me you where born with the ability to abuse every single person can abuse what ever they chose at any time.
Some claim it as a disease , disease = money in our culture, it has not been classified as a disease .
yes health problems flourish in those who abuse alcohol.. as in many addictions.
but addictions have their own clasifications and are treated as a mental health issue not in the physical realm.
that is why they have AA medical commuity does not address other than the physical symptoms and health problems from alcohol abuse.
i know those who love alcohol feel strongly and those who have a still strong attachment eventho not drinking feel even more empowered to justify addictions and bad choices by blaming whatever..
alcoholics are not victims... violent crime, cancer , car accidents illnes truly beyond our control etc. are victims. IM not a victim of smoking ciggerettes im an addict. it is still a choice.
alcoholics make bad choices and have volumes of books and essays telling them all about WHY.. we all know why we all grew up in this culture.
addictions are in the mind after the initional withdrawl period with alcohol it is done within a 7 day period .. I smoke ciggerettes, im addicted, nicotine is as strong as alcohol in the body sensation of desire, yet many quit everyday without a entire community of rants about how it is a "special circumstance to be excused".
they are the only ones shocked when they realize the truth of addictions.. but some how we all are supose to think they are victims they are in the sense of making and repeating a bad choice and vice in life.. just like smoking or driving drunk or playing with rabid grizzly bears.
but because of the cost it has had on their life and those who have loved them and being sober now hurts that reality with the truth of how life went while drinking we all are suppose to say oh im sorry your such a hero NOW?
not me.
i do congrats those willing to get their life together after years of abuse good for you! hero? no . they have accomplished nothing more than any other person on the face of the earth that has not made the bad choice of drinking to a point of abuse.
it isnt special that a person does NOT abuse alcohol, it is normal and healthy.
yet that is exactly the twisted logic those in the throngs of alcoholism use to justify one more day of being sober, and that is not exactly a healthy mind set for life.. but everyone has to do and think what they may to get to the next meeting and be with those who get it. I know i do not and yes i have friends who are addicts and go to meetings some every single day, and alot of it is dealing with the issues of life beyond alcohol.. things and situations the rest of society have been doing all of their life.
pond - your logic has been weighed in the balances and found wanting.
Here's the facts:
POINT #1: It most certainly is a disease.
Alcoholism is a chronic, often progressive disease with symptoms that include a strong need to drink despite negative consequences, such as serious job or health problems. Like many other diseases, it has a generally predictable course, has recognized symptoms, and is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors that are being increasingly well defined. (SOURCE)
Most experts agree that alcoholism is a disease just as high blood pressure, diabetes and arthritis are diseases. Like these other diseases, alcoholism tends to run in families. Alcoholism is a chronic disease. “Chronic” means that it lasts for a long time or it causes problems again and again. The main treatment for alcoholism is to stop drinking alcohol. This can be difficult, because most people who are alcoholics feel a strong desire for alcohol after they stop drinking. (SOURCE)
At times, scientists, clinicians and others debate whether or not to call alcoholism a “disease.” Usage of the term is usually acceptable if it is properly defined. When one considers the wide scope of damage that alcoholism does to the human body, mind and spirit, the condition can, indeed, be legitimately described as having become a disease.
Over a period of time, alcohol abuse alters brain-cell function, induces nerve damage, shrinks the cerebral cortex, imbalances the hormonal system and damages vital organs. Scientists have found that repetitive alcohol abuse wreaks a certain common havoc on the psyche that is perhaps even more insidious than the damage sustained by the liver, the heart and other vital organs.
During early and middle stages, alcoholics may be able to function, but their productivity will be progressively hampered; their psychological disequilibrium will magnify small problems and render them unable to cope effectively with stress. This altered state of psyche will prevent them from seeing the reality of a situation and thwart the normal process of emotional maturing that enables people to assimilate and learn from lessons of experience. The condition of alcoholics changes them into people who think, act and feel differently than they should.
Calling the condition of alcoholism a disease is not a cop-out for alcoholics. To the contrary, when alcoholics become aware of the far-reaching damaging effects of their condition to their own minds, lives, families and society, they have more responsibility, not less, for seeking treatment. (SOURCE)
POINT #2: It is most certainly treated in the physical realm - which ties into referring to it as a disease. See above and sources for more information. There are medications out to treat it physically. There is a reason why people go through detoxification - it has to PHYSICALLY leave their body - and it's not pretty to watch. It's a lot more than someone ....ing it out and having a hangover for a day or two. Good grief.
POINT #3: The medical community most certainly addresses the side-effects or other physical scope of effects that long-term alcohol abuse has on the body. I dare you to find a hospital which does not have a Chemical Dependency department or has one they can refer patients to. I double dog dare you.
This would be as illogical as saying the medical community does not treat the health conditions that are related with morbidly obese patients - that would rule out heart diease, respiratory disease, and other stresses or conditions placed on the body because someone chose to eat too much - yeah, those conditions are never treated, right?
Some of the most serious diseases associated with chronic alcohol abuse include cancer of the liver, larynx, esophagus, stomach, colon and breast. Alcoholism may also lead to high blood pressure, stroke and heart attack; damage to the brain, pancreas and kidney; produce stomach and duodenal ulcers, colitis, birth defects and fetal alcohol syndrome, impotence and infertility, premature aging, sleep disturbances, muscle cramps, diminished immunity and other diseases. Alcohol abuse and cigarettes are one of the worst possible combinations, greatly increasing the risk of heart disease and cancer. (SOURCE)
POINT #4: Placing alcoholism on the same plane as a "bad choice" is, in itself, a bad choice. You're saying that someone who may get several speeding tickets, or may loose 40 lbs, or may decide to get their GED because the chose to quit school, is on the same plane as someone who is controlling an incurable disease by modifying their own behavior and maybe taking medication to assist with that. You obviously have no idea what it takes or the support that is needed in such situations.
Most people don't think of alcohol as a drug...but it is. Alcohol abuse has destroyed more lives, broken apart more families, caused more diseases and contributed to more auto fatalities than any other drug. It is the major contributing factor in the growing epidemic of domestic violence.
More than half of all adults drink, but, not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic. Alcholism is a complex psychosocial disease. Those who drink risk becoming an alcoholic. It impairs your judgement and affects the way you think, feel and communicate.
The cause of alcoholism is unknown, but, like heart disease, there are both controllable and uncontrollable risk factors. Having an alcoholic parent is an uncontrollable risk. You are at risk if you are angry, lonely or sad or have few or no friends. Those who are poor or under great stress are also at risk for alcoholism.
Alcohol addiction has 4 characteristics:
1. Alcoholism carries an overwhelming urge to repeat the experience of getting high on alcohol. At times, this urge will go beyond the strength of a person's will to resist, no matter how much risk or harm may be involved.
2. Satisfying the urge to drink becomes the top priority in the alcoholic's life. This urge can become stronger than sexual needs, stronger than the need to satisfy hunger, stonger even than the need for survival.
3. The urge to get high with alcohol becomes linked to all other aspects of life. Tension, depression, anger and excitement can all trigger the desire to take a drink.
4. No matter how long an alcoholic has been sober, he or she will always be at risk for alcohol abuse. As time passes with sobriety, the urge to drink weakens and occurs less often, but it can return with ferocious and overpowering strength at any time.
And here's Pond's original post that I was responding to that was widely edited (above):
Some claim it as a disease , disease = money in our culture, it has not been classified as a disease .
yes health problems flourish in those who abuse alcohol.. as in many addictions.
but addictions have their own clasifications and are treated as a mental health issue not in the physical realm.
that is why they have AA medical commuity does not address other than the physical symptoms and health problems from alcohol abuse.
i know those who love alcohol feel strongly and those who have a still strong attachment eventho not drinking feel even more empowered to justify addictions and bad choices by blaming whatever..
alcoholics are not victims... violent crime, cancer , car accidents illnes truly beyond our control etc. are victims.
alcoholics make bad choices and have volumes of books and essays telling them all about WHY.. we all know why we all grew up in this culture.
they are the only ones shocked when they realize the truth of addictions.. but some how we all are supose to think they are victims they are in the sense of making and repeating a bad choice and vice in life.. just like smoking or driving drunk or playing with rabid grizzly bears.
but because of the cost it has had on their life and those who have loved them and being sober now hurts that reality we all are suppose to say oh im sorry your such a hero NOW?
not me.
i do congrats those willing to get their life together after years of abuse good for you! hero? no . they have accomplished nothing more than any other person on the face of the earth that has not made bad choices.
but i give kudos to those who think they have accomplished something in life by being sober funny tho most of us do it every single of our life without a second thought or wanting respect or admiration for it.
It is normal to be sober, no big deal , EXCEPT in the alcoholic circles and fellowships in that society it is an achievment !! i just do not buy it .
I do not think the ability to stay sober is an achievment i think it is a sad commentary on the person and how they have managed their life.
it is good thing they decide not to be a drunk yep but they get no stars from me.
Pond -- you don't get it. What you just wrote is a *sad commentary* about your thought process. :(
I'd rather have an alcoholic than mj for a friend any day, that's for sure. At least most alcoholics aren't self-righteous, un-empathetic, heartless, ignorant souls who are deluded into thinking they are so perfect that they're able to judge others based on zero knowledge and compassion.
The truth? I think mj's life is absolutely pathetic and miserable and that's why she has to attack and kick others when they're down.
I am really, really happy you are not an alcoholic, or alcohol addict, or alcohol abuser, whatever you want to call it. With the all people in your life that drink, you sure don't need me to tell you what a horrible way of life it is for everyone involved.
But your response reminds me of that story in the Bible about the prodigal son. The good son was angry because the bad son was getting a party. And the father said: he who was dead is alive again; he who was lost is found.
I don't see anywhere where Cman asks to be made a hero. But I do think we should throw him a party.
Ummm, just for the record, I know for a fact that Wierwille recommended AA to a number of people who were alcoholics, with his personal admonition that "no one helps alcoholics overcome their problems better than AA".
Jonny,
I don't think that information made it too far down the way tree. I had heard several times in my almost 20 years in TWI that AA was not recommended because it didn't teach people to serve the one, true God. It promoted worshipping whatever god you wanted.
But I do agree that AA helps people with addictions. They are the best out there IMHO because they teach people to deal with the causes and triggers of addiction not just the actual drinking or drug use.
Pond, my father was an alcoholic during my whole childhood. He quite cold turkey. He didn't deal with the reasons he abused alcohol. He is a loaded gun, and he hasn't drank in 10 years. I hate to see the day he loses it. He will be worse than he was in the first place BECAUSE HE IS STILL AN ALCOHOLIC WHO HAS NOT RECEIVED TREATMENT!!!!
Lots of twi sayings and definitions come from the AA book. An example would be if you're humble, you're teachable--never found that in a dictionary. It's in the AA book. So, I know that vp must have gone to more than one meeting because twi pillars used the slogans a lot.
Pond, alcoholism certainly is a physical as well as a mental health issue. Where do you get some of this stuff?
cman, I wish you all the best in your fight to beat this thing. It's worth it because you and those you love and who love you are worth it!
I quit smoking about 5 months ago for the umpteenth time, but I hope and pray and really think this is IT. I know exactly what you mean about seeing people drinking on TV. I feel the same when people light up on TV. In fact, I think it bothers me more than people lighting up in my actual presence! I keep the remote handy and change the channel. No sense being tormented!
Oh and re: twi and AA, I was told many years ago, by someone who'd been around HQ in the early days, that VPW got an AA chapter started in NK or St. Marys. He probably should have joined. He must have thought he could "handle it."
I never heard AA poo-pooed in twi except by one Corps friend who was in denial about having a drinking problem.
I don't know about vee pee, but I do know for sure that craiggers went on more than one tirade about how full of b.s. AA is.
Among some of the things I remember him yelling about is that AA teaches people to continue saying that they are an alcoholic even if they haven't had a drink in ten years.
Another is the praying to "God as you see him" and that they end their meetings with the vanity of the Lord's prayer (rote repetition).
First of all, Pond, you simply have no right to judge, for you have not walked in an alcoholics shoes. Be thankful you are not addicted to alcohol, but don't judge others who are. Your judgemental attitude makes you a very small person. Lighten up...
And Nottaway. I personally know of three people who were hard core alcoholics in The Way. One woman very high up, and two, just "basic Way Corps" folks. And VP recommended that they go to AA and "get cleaned up" for they (AA) were the very best at helping people kick the habit. He didn't even need to tell them to not to embrace "the whole doctrine" of AA, for he knew that they were comitted to The Way and the Corps and etc. But he knew that AA really was capable of helping people.
And so, for whatever that was worth, that VP recommended AA is a historical fact. And I must say that I was surprised to hear that when I did, because I wouldn't have thought that VP would suggest such a thing that seemed so "off the Word". I had been to a couple of AA meetings with a guy who was a regular member and who had started coming to my twig in Portland, Oregon, and had wondered if I had been wrong to encourage the new twig guy to keep going because it helped him so. But later when I had heard VP say it himself to one woman, and then the testimony of two Corps brethren that he had encouraged them to do so, I felt good about how I had encouraged that guy and had gone to the meetings with him.
And so, as far as I know, AA is a very successful and powerful group whose soul purpose is to help those who have the honestyto admit that they have become powerless to alcohol and it's negative attributes. Now, LCM may have discouraged AA, but I am not familiar with it. But then again, maybe he discouraged it between the time I was kicked out (1989) and by the time he was kicked out. I certainly can picture him ranting over it though...
Belle, I guess you were typing as I was typing... :)
when one sees himself at the low end of life and realy looking to God as a resource, he will empower you..
I do have a friend who is denial..and not sure where his life will go.I cannot hook you up with him, simple he is nt available, but where is the profit of talking to someone in denial unless thier working on thier issues. Give your best and face the problem one moment at a time. Pat yourself on the back..and dont limit God to 12 steps..:)
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pond
I have a question.
I drank and got drunk when i was young for the peer pressure at times, but since then i never had the desire to get drunk i can have some alcohol but never would I consider losing my ability to think clearly and one or two for the taste a night is all i would do.
my sister gets drunk my son gets drunk. my father got drunk.
i think they have problems because of it as well although all are really doing well by any of the standards of the day.
my question, how does one want to get drunk?
why would anyone want to be stupid puke all of what it is?
what is the darn attraction to that?
i do not get this my son said it is because they are "weak" which i do not get because booze just makes you more stupid and weaker .
maybe to forget your problems while your drunk but it adds more the next day probably would anyone chose to drink?
alcoholics claim to have no control over alcohol... come on alcohol is only aliquid not a force to be dealt with like people or etc.
what they have no control over is their own mind and how they deal with issues in life and the habit of using a drug to numb the awarenes of it.
so stop drinking and you still have a person unable to cope or deal ot learn how to do life in a standard that allows a quality of life.
I think that is why it is so difficult to stop drinking. because the keys to living successfully are absent.. and a bad habit of being drunk is what they know how to do well. so they do that instead.
but i give kudos to those who think they have accomplished something in life by being sober funny tho most of us do it every single of our life without a second thought or wanting respect or admiration for it.
It is normal to be sober, no big deal , EXCEPT in the alcoholic circles and fellowships in that society it is an achievment !! i just do not buy it .
I do not think the ability to stay sober is an achievment i think it is a sad commentary on the person and how they have managed their life.
it is good thing they decide not to be a drunk yep but they get no stars from me.
that is why AA is good they get to hang with others who life is a focus of staying sober.. which HELLO is not most people only alcoholics.
i know lots of folks who have abused alcohol.. and then they decide to stop whether it is because they have kids get a new job or health or tired of the money it costs they do not go to AA they just live normal like everyone eles in life and chose not to use alcohol to cope or drink, they do not go to AA to find support because it is not neccesary for them to have a group to live life without a booze.
so why do some need it then? for support? plenty of sober people in life, so I do not get it really.
it isnt like everyone is a alocoholic mostly drinkers hang with drinkers, so find some new friends. it isnt that complicated.
it seems to me they take the focus of their life from BOOZE to the whole AA thing and now focus on that .. still not living very well or coping very well ... or functioning in the norms of society without AA.
sure if you need constant reassureence that booze is bad bad bad and not good for you anymore.. go but is that really a normal functioning life ?
how does it address the reason you did chose to abuse alcohol?
o and please do not tell me you where born with the ability to abuse every single person can abuse what ever they chose at any time.
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Shellon
Man it would be so much easier in this life if we all fit into others molds and afore judged boundaries for us.
And again, how very boring.
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coolchef
pond please take this with all due respect
i have been on gsc for at least 4 years and i have never flammed any one before get ready it's comming your way{with love}
get real!! an alchie is sick he has a disease that most don't want to have
do you want diabetes? do you want heart disease? do you want cancer?
no of course you don't!!
being addicted to booze is not a matter of your mind
it is a disease!!!
please know what you are talking about before you judge US
yeah my name is dennis and i am an alcholic!
oh yeah one more thing
once a pickle never a cukecumber
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pond
Some claim it as a disease , disease = money in our culture, it has not been classified as a disease .
yes health problems flourish in those who abuse alcohol.. as in many addictions.
but addictions have their own clasifications and are treated as a mental health issue not in the physical realm.
that is why they have AA medical commuity does not address other than the physical symptoms and health problems from alcohol abuse.
i know those who love alcohol feel strongly and those who have a still strong attachment eventho not drinking feel even more empowered to justify addictions and bad choices by blaming whatever..
alcoholics are not victims... violent crime, cancer , car accidents illnes truly beyond our control etc. are victims. IM not a victim of smoking ciggerettes im an addict. it is still a choice.
alcoholics make bad choices and have volumes of books and essays telling them all about WHY.. we all know why we all grew up in this culture.
addictions are in the mind after the initional withdrawl period with alcohol it is done within a 7 day period .. I smoke ciggerettes, im addicted, nicotine is as strong as alcohol in the body sensation of desire, yet many quit everyday without a entire community of rants about how it is a "special circumstance to be excused".
they are the only ones shocked when they realize the truth of addictions.. but some how we all are supose to think they are victims they are in the sense of making and repeating a bad choice and vice in life.. just like smoking or driving drunk or playing with rabid grizzly bears.
but because of the cost it has had on their life and those who have loved them and being sober now hurts that reality with the truth of how life went while drinking we all are suppose to say oh im sorry your such a hero NOW?
not me.
i do congrats those willing to get their life together after years of abuse good for you! hero? no . they have accomplished nothing more than any other person on the face of the earth that has not made the bad choice of drinking to a point of abuse.
it isnt special that a person does NOT abuse alcohol, it is normal and healthy.
yet that is exactly the twisted logic those in the throngs of alcoholism use to justify one more day of being sober, and that is not exactly a healthy mind set for life.. but everyone has to do and think what they may to get to the next meeting and be with those who get it. I know i do not and yes i have friends who are addicts and go to meetings some every single day, and alot of it is dealing with the issues of life beyond alcohol.. things and situations the rest of society have been doing all of their life.
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Shellon
Seems the DSM IV says this problem should be approached from all directions and application of treatment is not only a mental health issue.
Complications sure seem both physical as well as psychological
http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alcohol...lications.shtml
Course of the problem would seem both physical and psychological too
http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alcohol/course.shtml
Risk factors, ditto
http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alcohol/riskfactors.shtml
It's not just a choice of 'oh this is cool, I'll wreck my life, job, marriage, kids, finances, woohoo won't that be fun'
Town hero? LOL uh huh sure (although that brilliant comment is now edited out)
What was said about those that accuse are not the ones living it and couldn't possibly know of what they speak?
cman, you do whatever you have to do to get well and take good care of your life. Whatever it takes!
Most of us will practice empathy and kindess for you. The rest.....well, pay no attention if you can.
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ChasUFarley
pond - your logic has been weighed in the balances and found wanting.
Here's the facts:
POINT #1: It most certainly is a disease.
Alcoholism is a chronic, often progressive disease with symptoms that include a strong need to drink despite negative consequences, such as serious job or health problems. Like many other diseases, it has a generally predictable course, has recognized symptoms, and is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors that are being increasingly well defined. (SOURCE)
Most experts agree that alcoholism is a disease just as high blood pressure, diabetes and arthritis are diseases. Like these other diseases, alcoholism tends to run in families. Alcoholism is a chronic disease. “Chronic” means that it lasts for a long time or it causes problems again and again. The main treatment for alcoholism is to stop drinking alcohol. This can be difficult, because most people who are alcoholics feel a strong desire for alcohol after they stop drinking. (SOURCE)
At times, scientists, clinicians and others debate whether or not to call alcoholism a “disease.” Usage of the term is usually acceptable if it is properly defined. When one considers the wide scope of damage that alcoholism does to the human body, mind and spirit, the condition can, indeed, be legitimately described as having become a disease.
Over a period of time, alcohol abuse alters brain-cell function, induces nerve damage, shrinks the cerebral cortex, imbalances the hormonal system and damages vital organs. Scientists have found that repetitive alcohol abuse wreaks a certain common havoc on the psyche that is perhaps even more insidious than the damage sustained by the liver, the heart and other vital organs.
During early and middle stages, alcoholics may be able to function, but their productivity will be progressively hampered; their psychological disequilibrium will magnify small problems and render them unable to cope effectively with stress. This altered state of psyche will prevent them from seeing the reality of a situation and thwart the normal process of emotional maturing that enables people to assimilate and learn from lessons of experience. The condition of alcoholics changes them into people who think, act and feel differently than they should.
Calling the condition of alcoholism a disease is not a cop-out for alcoholics. To the contrary, when alcoholics become aware of the far-reaching damaging effects of their condition to their own minds, lives, families and society, they have more responsibility, not less, for seeking treatment. (SOURCE)
POINT #2: It is most certainly treated in the physical realm - which ties into referring to it as a disease. See above and sources for more information. There are medications out to treat it physically. There is a reason why people go through detoxification - it has to PHYSICALLY leave their body - and it's not pretty to watch. It's a lot more than someone ....ing it out and having a hangover for a day or two. Good grief.
POINT #3: The medical community most certainly addresses the side-effects or other physical scope of effects that long-term alcohol abuse has on the body. I dare you to find a hospital which does not have a Chemical Dependency department or has one they can refer patients to. I double dog dare you.
This would be as illogical as saying the medical community does not treat the health conditions that are related with morbidly obese patients - that would rule out heart diease, respiratory disease, and other stresses or conditions placed on the body because someone chose to eat too much - yeah, those conditions are never treated, right?
Some of the most serious diseases associated with chronic alcohol abuse include cancer of the liver, larynx, esophagus, stomach, colon and breast. Alcoholism may also lead to high blood pressure, stroke and heart attack; damage to the brain, pancreas and kidney; produce stomach and duodenal ulcers, colitis, birth defects and fetal alcohol syndrome, impotence and infertility, premature aging, sleep disturbances, muscle cramps, diminished immunity and other diseases. Alcohol abuse and cigarettes are one of the worst possible combinations, greatly increasing the risk of heart disease and cancer. (SOURCE)
POINT #4: Placing alcoholism on the same plane as a "bad choice" is, in itself, a bad choice. You're saying that someone who may get several speeding tickets, or may loose 40 lbs, or may decide to get their GED because the chose to quit school, is on the same plane as someone who is controlling an incurable disease by modifying their own behavior and maybe taking medication to assist with that. You obviously have no idea what it takes or the support that is needed in such situations.
Most people don't think of alcohol as a drug...but it is. Alcohol abuse has destroyed more lives, broken apart more families, caused more diseases and contributed to more auto fatalities than any other drug. It is the major contributing factor in the growing epidemic of domestic violence.
More than half of all adults drink, but, not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic. Alcholism is a complex psychosocial disease. Those who drink risk becoming an alcoholic. It impairs your judgement and affects the way you think, feel and communicate.
The cause of alcoholism is unknown, but, like heart disease, there are both controllable and uncontrollable risk factors. Having an alcoholic parent is an uncontrollable risk. You are at risk if you are angry, lonely or sad or have few or no friends. Those who are poor or under great stress are also at risk for alcoholism.
Alcohol addiction has 4 characteristics:
1. Alcoholism carries an overwhelming urge to repeat the experience of getting high on alcohol. At times, this urge will go beyond the strength of a person's will to resist, no matter how much risk or harm may be involved.
2. Satisfying the urge to drink becomes the top priority in the alcoholic's life. This urge can become stronger than sexual needs, stronger than the need to satisfy hunger, stonger even than the need for survival.
3. The urge to get high with alcohol becomes linked to all other aspects of life. Tension, depression, anger and excitement can all trigger the desire to take a drink.
4. No matter how long an alcoholic has been sober, he or she will always be at risk for alcohol abuse. As time passes with sobriety, the urge to drink weakens and occurs less often, but it can return with ferocious and overpowering strength at any time.
(SOURCE)
Book 'em Dan'l.
And here's Pond's original post that I was responding to that was widely edited (above):
Some claim it as a disease , disease = money in our culture, it has not been classified as a disease .
yes health problems flourish in those who abuse alcohol.. as in many addictions.
but addictions have their own clasifications and are treated as a mental health issue not in the physical realm.
that is why they have AA medical commuity does not address other than the physical symptoms and health problems from alcohol abuse.
i know those who love alcohol feel strongly and those who have a still strong attachment eventho not drinking feel even more empowered to justify addictions and bad choices by blaming whatever..
alcoholics are not victims... violent crime, cancer , car accidents illnes truly beyond our control etc. are victims.
alcoholics make bad choices and have volumes of books and essays telling them all about WHY.. we all know why we all grew up in this culture.
they are the only ones shocked when they realize the truth of addictions.. but some how we all are supose to think they are victims they are in the sense of making and repeating a bad choice and vice in life.. just like smoking or driving drunk or playing with rabid grizzly bears.
but because of the cost it has had on their life and those who have loved them and being sober now hurts that reality we all are suppose to say oh im sorry your such a hero NOW?
not me.
i do congrats those willing to get their life together after years of abuse good for you! hero? no . they have accomplished nothing more than any other person on the face of the earth that has not made bad choices.
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dmiller
Pond -- you don't get it. What you just wrote is a *sad commentary* about your thought process. :(
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cman
my family and peace in my mind is more important then the bottle
if i pick it up again i won't put it down
it is a disease
you did not hear pond
it's real and a disease and only one way to stop it
is to stop-period
certain people for whatever reason are alcoholics
the reasons are becoming cleare
and the help is even clearer and works
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ChasUFarley
dmiller - I think the editing of the orig. post and what's left now shows that *SHE* doesn't even want her own logic out there... pathetic.
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Belle
I'd rather have an alcoholic than mj for a friend any day, that's for sure. At least most alcoholics aren't self-righteous, un-empathetic, heartless, ignorant souls who are deluded into thinking they are so perfect that they're able to judge others based on zero knowledge and compassion.
The truth? I think mj's life is absolutely pathetic and miserable and that's why she has to attack and kick others when they're down.
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dmiller
Pond -- you said a bunch of stuff I find distasteful -- but this one takes the cake.
B as in B, and S as in S!!So you're condemning a person for trying to right what they see is wrong in their life?
Let's see if this analogy works --------------
You were once in twi, right???
You got out, right???
Did you feel any remorse or hurt from the experience??
Maybe you did, or maybe you didn't -- I don't know.
But taking the statement you made (above) slams every last one of us who were involved
in the org twi, as well as slamming alcoholics who are trying to do the right thing by leaving.
An evil prescence is detected (be it twi or alcohol).
Some semblence of sanity tells us to LEAVE!
And now your comment is that it's a *sad commentary* on how we managed our lives????
Give me a break here. Wake up and smell the coffee.
I don't know what ivory tower you live in, but it's time to move.
Get the h3ll outta dodge, and try to see things as they really are.
Your diarrhetic mouthings are NOT a blessing to those of us who live in the real world.
Chas --- I agree. Wish she'd thought of that before hitting the *enter* key.
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cman
disease - An abnormal condition of the body or mind that causes discomfort or dysfunction
alcoholism affects and is in the body and mind
the ignorance of this disease has caused many to continue downward
i'm here to tell you that there is hope
the cure is in the power that is already in you
the will to stop
to bring this out takes a will to see and learn
and to stop being ignorant
mainly honesty with yourself
and others
there is no pill to take
science has not solved the problem
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VeganXTC
Pond,
I am really, really happy you are not an alcoholic, or alcohol addict, or alcohol abuser, whatever you want to call it. With the all people in your life that drink, you sure don't need me to tell you what a horrible way of life it is for everyone involved.
But your response reminds me of that story in the Bible about the prodigal son. The good son was angry because the bad son was getting a party. And the father said: he who was dead is alive again; he who was lost is found.
I don't see anywhere where Cman asks to be made a hero. But I do think we should throw him a party.
Woo-Hoo! Cman! You Rock!
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Nottawayfer
Jonny,
I don't think that information made it too far down the way tree. I had heard several times in my almost 20 years in TWI that AA was not recommended because it didn't teach people to serve the one, true God. It promoted worshipping whatever god you wanted.
But I do agree that AA helps people with addictions. They are the best out there IMHO because they teach people to deal with the causes and triggers of addiction not just the actual drinking or drug use.
Pond, my father was an alcoholic during my whole childhood. He quite cold turkey. He didn't deal with the reasons he abused alcohol. He is a loaded gun, and he hasn't drank in 10 years. I hate to see the day he loses it. He will be worse than he was in the first place BECAUSE HE IS STILL AN ALCOHOLIC WHO HAS NOT RECEIVED TREATMENT!!!!
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waterbuffalo
Nottawayfer,
Lots of twi sayings and definitions come from the AA book. An example would be if you're humble, you're teachable--never found that in a dictionary. It's in the AA book. So, I know that vp must have gone to more than one meeting because twi pillars used the slogans a lot.
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Linda Z
Pond, alcoholism certainly is a physical as well as a mental health issue. Where do you get some of this stuff?
cman, I wish you all the best in your fight to beat this thing. It's worth it because you and those you love and who love you are worth it!
I quit smoking about 5 months ago for the umpteenth time, but I hope and pray and really think this is IT. I know exactly what you mean about seeing people drinking on TV. I feel the same when people light up on TV. In fact, I think it bothers me more than people lighting up in my actual presence! I keep the remote handy and change the channel. No sense being tormented!
Oh and re: twi and AA, I was told many years ago, by someone who'd been around HQ in the early days, that VPW got an AA chapter started in NK or St. Marys. He probably should have joined. He must have thought he could "handle it."
I never heard AA poo-pooed in twi except by one Corps friend who was in denial about having a drinking problem.
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Belle
I don't know about vee pee, but I do know for sure that craiggers went on more than one tirade about how full of b.s. AA is.
Among some of the things I remember him yelling about is that AA teaches people to continue saying that they are an alcoholic even if they haven't had a drink in ten years.
Another is the praying to "God as you see him" and that they end their meetings with the vanity of the Lord's prayer (rote repetition).
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Nottawayfer
Very intersting to hear from you all. I guess so much for speaking the same thing throughout the minsitry.
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J0nny Ling0
First of all, Pond, you simply have no right to judge, for you have not walked in an alcoholics shoes. Be thankful you are not addicted to alcohol, but don't judge others who are. Your judgemental attitude makes you a very small person. Lighten up...
And Nottaway. I personally know of three people who were hard core alcoholics in The Way. One woman very high up, and two, just "basic Way Corps" folks. And VP recommended that they go to AA and "get cleaned up" for they (AA) were the very best at helping people kick the habit. He didn't even need to tell them to not to embrace "the whole doctrine" of AA, for he knew that they were comitted to The Way and the Corps and etc. But he knew that AA really was capable of helping people.
And so, for whatever that was worth, that VP recommended AA is a historical fact. And I must say that I was surprised to hear that when I did, because I wouldn't have thought that VP would suggest such a thing that seemed so "off the Word". I had been to a couple of AA meetings with a guy who was a regular member and who had started coming to my twig in Portland, Oregon, and had wondered if I had been wrong to encourage the new twig guy to keep going because it helped him so. But later when I had heard VP say it himself to one woman, and then the testimony of two Corps brethren that he had encouraged them to do so, I felt good about how I had encouraged that guy and had gone to the meetings with him.
And so, as far as I know, AA is a very successful and powerful group whose soul purpose is to help those who have the honestyto admit that they have become powerless to alcohol and it's negative attributes. Now, LCM may have discouraged AA, but I am not familiar with it. But then again, maybe he discouraged it between the time I was kicked out (1989) and by the time he was kicked out. I certainly can picture him ranting over it though...
Belle, I guess you were typing as I was typing... :)
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outofdafog
I did hear from VPW that there was nothing wrong with AA - at some meeting or other...........
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cman
well vp isn't the point
nor do i mind him talked about
but he needed it
his lack of honesty shows in history
started this thread cuz i needed to
and hopefully help someone else who is in denial
plenty of stories i've read so far that hit home
people who have stopped for decades and then started again
loosing what they gained in material and mental capacities
it can be ignored and hidden well by many
but it's seen by some
i pray that some who have heard will listen
and take positive action
aa is helping me
without it i would evenyually loose everything
when does one want the elevator to stop going down
in self esteem, in peace, in things we need
emotionally and physically
an honest look in the mirror
few can handle it
that are entrapped by addictions
and yes you can live with the way you are
enslaved as much or worse then twi
or take a step forward
stop a train wreck before it happens
stop the continual self destruction
that you've learned how to hide from others
but some see it, wether you think so or not
for those who can have one and not another
good for you
but watch out cuz that succer is powerful
and the power to defeat alcohol is in you
no one else
but most need help when it's gone
past the point of no return
honestly look at yourself and see if you like what you see
if you don't, there are ways to make it better
aa is a powerful help
the serenity prayer has meaning
the Lord's prayer does to
his will on earth for you as it is in heaven
both heaven and earth are within
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likeaneagle
cman
Life is frail isnt it.
when one sees himself at the low end of life and realy looking to God as a resource, he will empower you..
I do have a friend who is denial..and not sure where his life will go.I cannot hook you up with him, simple he is nt available, but where is the profit of talking to someone in denial unless thier working on thier issues. Give your best and face the problem one moment at a time. Pat yourself on the back..and dont limit God to 12 steps..:)
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sirguessalot
thanks, brutha cman...for the courage
and to this community for the heart to hold space for such a topic
my 2 cents...on a general note...
it is becoming clearer to me
that all things can be (and perhaps should be) viewed from many perspectives
and the days of claiming one perspective over another are coming to an end...we hope
the interior psychology and spirituality of it all is 100% relevant
the exterior physical and bio-mechanics of it all is 100% relevant
the collective interior cultural field through which we come into this world is 100% relevant
and the collective exterior social systems and ecology of it all is 100% relevant
all of these perspectives are wholly relevant and valuable ways of viewing the "data" of our lives
and to marginalize or otherwise close our eyes to any one of them is somewhat of a violent act
when we can somehow hold all of them at once
we will have a more complete picture of all that is "really" occuring
our psyche has a relationship with our body, with culture and with the environment
our body has a relationship with our psyche, with culture, and with the environment
our culture....etc...
praying
thinking
wishing
dreaming
feeling
loving
...
that said...
AA is not everything
but its sure is alot
which is more than nothing
and i recall a lot of different and contradictory opinions from the twi big wigs about it
and i have also recently learned that the founder of AA was also informed by "the enneagram"
and modelled his process after it...to some degree or other
peace and love
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cman
reach your arms up and stretch for a minute or two
bring them down and wrap them around yourself
feel the love that is there
breath deeply for 8 or 10 times
think of nothing or good things
then let go and relax
practice this in private occasionally
it helps
this isn't from aa
but from a friend
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