I've come to believe that renewing our minds is a work the Lord does in us because we are new creation people. Christianity is not a mind-control exercise...
I've come to believe that renewing our minds is a work the Lord does in us because we are new creation people. Christianity is not a mind-control exercise...
I second that!!!
This one was a big one for me, and as soon as I learned othewise, I rejoiced!!!
It's all about HIM, not me.........................as I build that relationship, HE renews me. He does the work.
It's not like the Way used to teach. They were so scared to allow the Lord to be in charge.....................of anything!
Yes, the renewed mind was used a mind control exercise in every category with which you came in to contact with TWI.
If children were being corrected, they were told to renew their mind.
If we didn't want to give up our lives for 3 weeks to be on the class crew, we were told to renew our mind.
Renew our mind to what???
To do what other people wanted? They would never say that. It was "Renew your mind to the Word." That was THE cop-out statement. And then some statement from the Book of Acts was given about the church growing. They were totally oblivious to the fact that people had lives outside of TWI. But we were expected to make TWI our life and hopefully get our families taken care of in between the other stuff of TWI.
I agree with Bliss wholeheartedly. "It's all about HIM, not me.........................as I build that relationship, HE renews me. He does the work."
Great post/thread Polar Bear !!!!!! "I'm trying to dismantle the warped impression of what TWI practices as the standard for the renewed mind." Good luck on that one!...And Bliss I love your comment about TWI – "They were so scared to allow the Lord to be in charge.....................of anything!"
In Commentary of the New Testament: Romans author R.C.H. Lenski refers to Martin Luther preaching on Romans 12:2:
"Luther writes: He does not say: I command you!" for he is preaching to those who are already Christians and godly through the faith in the new man, who are not to be forced with commands but to be admonished to do willingly what is to be done in regard to the sinful old man…
…A law-driver insists with threats and penalties; a preacher of grace lures and incites with divine goodness and compassion shown to us; for he wants no unwilling works and reluctant services, he wants joyful and delightful services of God."
End of excerpt
How many times did I hear that gosh-awful phrase "just renew your mind" – barked at me in such a Moses-the-law-giver tone…Makes sense though if I jump back into that old context…since TWI was in charge of renewing my mind…What TheEvan said makes a lot more sense to me now, "I've come to believe that renewing our minds is a work the Lord does in us because we are new creation people. Christianity is not a mind-control exercise..." Yeah…the Lord's in charge of true Christianity…and I guess TWI is in charge of …how did Polar Bear put it…oh yeah…violating the back door of truth. Eeeeeeewwww what does that mean? I don't know - but yeeeech - terrible mind picture...terrible...gross...yeah it's gross alright what TWI does to truth.
Yes, the renewed mind was used a mind control exercise in every category with which you came in to contact with TWI.
If children were being corrected, they were told to renew their mind.
If we didn't want to give up our lives for 3 weeks to be on the class crew, we were told to renew our mind.
Renew our mind to what???
To do what other people wanted? They would never say that. It was "Renew your mind to the Word." That was THE cop-out statement. And then some statement from the Book of Acts was given about the church growing. They were totally oblivious to the fact that people had lives outside of TWI. But we were expected to make TWI our life and hopefully get our families taken care of in between the other stuff of TWI.
I agree with Bliss wholeheartedly. "It's all about HIM, not me.........................as I build that relationship, HE renews me. He does the work."
Oh boy did you say it right!
Renew our minds to what? To do what other people wanted?
i love this post..if i had a quarter everytime i was told to renew my mind..well, as the saying goes...id be rich! my relatives well they do mean well (some of them) but it is so touchy having a conversation with them about anything because the whole renew your mind thing..by His stripes we are healed..keep believing..etc.. its simpler than that..really it is!! ISNT THAT LIBERATING??!! It is all about Him...not me. There is GRACE...so much grace..I just need to spend time with Him and try my best to be obedient..THATS IT> sure we can claim scriptures, but it doesnt have to betechnical..WE DONT HAVE THAT KIND OF CONTROL. ITS HIM, HIM, HIM. i love it..i am growing as I write this.
Here is something that I pondered during my tenure in twi...........why was twi's class entitled, The Renewed Mind (past tense)..?? The connotation, to me, implies that there is a final destination that is reached. Like a plateau of spirituality.....or something.
In my bible, I read........"renewing"
To me, this means that in this life.....it is an on-going process. I am responsible and accountable to keep myself from all appearances of evil. I strive to be "a vessel of honor" [i Tim. 2:21) and meet for the master's use by purging the things of the flesh.
And yes.......I, too, believe that twi "sodomized" this great truth from the Scriptures. By the mid to late 70s, ....during wierwille's era....this terminology "the renewed mind" had been sodomized. Once again, the true scriptural meaning was lost via twi inbreeding of wayspeak.
i think perhaps vpw's maps didnt take the notion as deep or as high or as wide as he claimed they did
cuz its one thing to use clay and fire to make things without even knowing much about how it works
and quite another to insist that your particular kind, style and type of mind garden is pre-eminent
and that it would be evil to NOT repeat and spread the same kinds of templates of the mind
sharing stories are like sharing bread
our mind lives on them
especially if the McRecipe for sandwiches simply sucks and
and causes people to invenst in a unhealthy mind map
that is programmed to aggressively duplicate itself
and lacks adequate level of holy Hospitality and such to do so
but its yet another thing to know how to explore and experiment with the nature of fire and clay and building temples and gardens of our big little minds...and look at them as arts and sciences...just as any potter or temple builder would
as Eckarte Tolle might say...we are NOT our minds (or better yet..we are not MERELY merely our minds)
but if we think we are
and identify with them as our self sense
our mind will most likely defend its self-sense from destruction
as if one would react to dying
and if this same mind is used to drive the body and social behaviour
the body and society will react as if its life is being threatened
which then...makes it pretty hard to renew our cracked-pots and throw another
if we think we are merely a lump of clay looking for a spirit that we already have
the spirit is the potter that simply sees the pot
hard to become a potter of any skill if one is afraid to mash the shards of a shattered pot
and who must throw thousands of pots even to become a student
there
is the artist
and the artifact
and there is artistry that only comes from having won and lost
many many times
clay is clay
fire is fire
strange as it might sound
i think that perhaps the most effective fire vp had for the mind was his formula for speaking in tongues
and so...his hyper-xenophobic dunce cap program on scriptural interepretation had a pretty darn effective fire for polishing our idols...too bad the recipe was so imbedded with paranoia and pride
thank God all things can be redeemed and transformed
simply put...its as if we have no choice but to think creatively in order to have a free mind
what child does not know this?
how is it that men forget?
i think we forget the value of contemplation and meditation
both of which seems to help the mind free the mind from itself
by tricking it
like playing a flute
where you are both the snake and the flute player in the garden
like trying to sneak up on a thought and catch it before it pops out of its hole
...and it will likely out fox you and wait for you to be distracted again
no wonder the Kid and his Teachers and Buddies spent so much time in the dark in the woods
not putting on the breaks
or stepping on the gas
but popping in the clutch and idling
simply observing a thought (or feeling) as a strand of your own being...literally
and letting it fulfil its own natural course...and it has a tendency to self liberate
basically because we are practicing being patient with our many selves
perhaps even kindly and curiously helping comb out a tangle of the mind/heart/soul
like amother would..in way that does not disturb the natural unfolding of the brew
i dunno
gawd...thinking of twi..and i wonder how twi had come so so far from the deeper roots of christianity
thank God we can renew our minds
and become transformed in a way that requires no books or laws or rules
I would have to agree with Linda there is to much in the scriptures about us doing the renewing.
A few years ago I sat through one of W*lter C*mm*ns scripture conferences called Things New and Renewed. He came up with this as a working definition
The renewing of the mind is to be done by thinking soberly according to that which God declares to be true in the scriptures regarding all that a person has in the new nature because of Jesus Christ's accomplishments.
II Corinthians 5:17 Revised Standard
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
II Corinthians 5:17 New American Standard
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature;the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Corinthians does not say that all things are become new but rather that certain new things have been provided to those who are in Christ. Throughout the New Testament are a listing of things that have become new and some that will become new in future times like a new heaven and earth and a new body. Something that we have not read of as either having become new or that which is to be made new ,and that is the mind. We do see that instead there may be a conflict in the mind because of the two natures and the different kinds of information available.
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God
Romans speaks of transforming or transfigure, our minds did not become new when we received the new spirit nature, but rather we are instructed to not be conformed or fashioned to this world but be transformed by the renewing of ones own mind.
The perfection of those who have believed on Jesus Christ is in the new spirit life.
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
We are instructed to be thus minded, it does not say that God makes us so it says He will reveal it to us not do it for us. verse 16 tells us to walk by the same rule and to mind, or think, the same thing.
Once again TWI as a whole is blamed for a few loose cannon leaders. I left in '94; maybe it was more than a few after that.
I know some leaders used to say renew your mind just to coerce people into doing what they wanted them to do. That's like Moe of the 3 stooges saying mingle or I'll mangle. I agree with the posters who say renewing the mind is about how we think first; especially about other people. It says the love of God constraineth us. It does not say the love of God barks orders at us.
2 Corinthians 10:5 "Casting down every imagination and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ."
By demanding, asking, telling, yelling at someone to ''renew their mind'', is like telling them to ''exalt their minds"above the mind of God!
Yes, we have to do one thing.....................bring every thought captive to what??? The obedience of who???
Christ.
So, we do something! yes. It is not to instruct laziness.
It is about ''surrender'' and submiting to God.
See in The Way, we would use this ''positive thinking'' statement to put a veneer of control on everything. Once we gave up negative thinking a lot of times we had nothing to hold onto, so we got angry.
You are to hold onto the word of God in your mind for sure.
But to be in the presence of God we put our mind on the things of God, His Majesty, His Glory, the transforming power of God then begins to work in us and we are transformed by the renewing of our minds!
The actual ''transforming'' is a continuous process.
We think on HIM, he works on us.
NOT a ONE TIME occurance.
This is all I have to offer.
Here is a site I study from often. An article you might enjoy.
The word "transformed" there is in the present passive. In other words, I can’t really do this. I can initiate the process, but God has got to take care of the transforming. It is in the passive voice. Present tense means a constant thing. It is not a one-time thing. It is a constant, on-going thing,
the mind always affects the conduct. Where your mind is directly reflects where you live and how you handle things and how you perceive things, how you discern things. How you make decisions in life depends on where your mind is
I have got to learn to let the Word of God dictate to me how am I to live. If I don’t, there is a way that seems right to me but that way leads me to destruction.
Proverbs 23 it says, "As a man thinks, so is he." If I am to present my body to Him, I must begin by submitting my mind to let His Word rebuild my way of thinking, to renew, to rip out the old.
The word for "renewing" is anakainosis. It is the word for "renovate." It is not really a verb, in that sense
I have to let my mind be affected by what God says and only what God says.
Once I am willing to let my mind be renewed by the Word of God, there is a transformation in my behavior, in my character, in the way that I live. The word is present passive imperative. In other words, it is a command.
Wasn't it taught in TWI that we renewed our minds to "The Word", meaning the written Word?. Thus the retemories and other such things, the idea being that if you stuff your mind with scripture ( as interpreted by VPW/LCM et al) you become a new creation.
Wasn't it also taught that the written word basically replaced the "absent" Christ?
Now if we are to bring "every thought into capitivity to the obedience of Christ then out only choice was to be obedient to the "written Word" interpreted by TWI.
This pretty much precuded any kind of personal relationship with Christ, as he was absent.
Also Doc Vic taught that the OT was "for our learning" as opposed to for doctrine. Then he puts the Gospels (which include the words spoken by Jesus) into the Old Testament and in a different "administration" so that they basically don't apply to us. How may times in TWI did you ever hear "Jesus said ....." ? Not many I bet. Heard a lot of "Paul said ..." and "Doctor said ..." but not too much of "Jesus said ..." And it is to Christ that we are to bring our thoughts into obedience?
Scripture is good as far as it goes but is no replacement or substitute for our living Lord and Saviour - Jesus Christ.
I have come to believe that the "renewed mind" has little if anything to do with "scripture" (memorizing, quoting, disecting, etc) and a whole more lot to do with a personal relationship with Christ.
Consider that the very early Christians to whom Paul spoke of the renewed mind, did not have Bibles with the Gospels and all the letters of Paul and Peter to memorize. So that couldn't have been what Paul was referring to in regards to the "renewed mind."
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TheEvan
"sodomized", he-he.
I've come to believe that renewing our minds is a work the Lord does in us because we are new creation people. Christianity is not a mind-control exercise...
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polar bear
THanks Evan. I liked what you said about that mind control stuff. I guess that's what we have to weed out. Here's to controlling our own thnking.
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bliss
I second that!!!
This one was a big one for me, and as soon as I learned othewise, I rejoiced!!!
It's all about HIM, not me.........................as I build that relationship, HE renews me. He does the work.
It's not like the Way used to teach. They were so scared to allow the Lord to be in charge.....................of anything!
:blink:
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polar bear
Thanks Bliss-I'm starting to see it now.
We just bask in, and enjoy the beauty of God in our life and He works in us.
Great stuff!
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Linda Z
I'm reminded of the verse about bringing every thought captive...to Christ, not to man-made rules and regs.
I still believe that we do the controlling--it's just the standard that has changed.
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Nottawayfer
Yes, the renewed mind was used a mind control exercise in every category with which you came in to contact with TWI.
If children were being corrected, they were told to renew their mind.
If we didn't want to give up our lives for 3 weeks to be on the class crew, we were told to renew our mind.
Renew our mind to what???
To do what other people wanted? They would never say that. It was "Renew your mind to the Word." That was THE cop-out statement. And then some statement from the Book of Acts was given about the church growing. They were totally oblivious to the fact that people had lives outside of TWI. But we were expected to make TWI our life and hopefully get our families taken care of in between the other stuff of TWI.
I agree with Bliss wholeheartedly. "It's all about HIM, not me.........................as I build that relationship, HE renews me. He does the work."
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I Love Bagpipes
AMEN and AMEN!!!!!!!
over and over and over AGAIN!!!!!
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T-Bone
Great post/thread Polar Bear !!!!!! "I'm trying to dismantle the warped impression of what TWI practices as the standard for the renewed mind." Good luck on that one!...And Bliss I love your comment about TWI – "They were so scared to allow the Lord to be in charge.....................of anything!"
In Commentary of the New Testament: Romans author R.C.H. Lenski refers to Martin Luther preaching on Romans 12:2:
"Luther writes: He does not say: I command you!" for he is preaching to those who are already Christians and godly through the faith in the new man, who are not to be forced with commands but to be admonished to do willingly what is to be done in regard to the sinful old man…
…A law-driver insists with threats and penalties; a preacher of grace lures and incites with divine goodness and compassion shown to us; for he wants no unwilling works and reluctant services, he wants joyful and delightful services of God."
End of excerpt
How many times did I hear that gosh-awful phrase "just renew your mind" – barked at me in such a Moses-the-law-giver tone…Makes sense though if I jump back into that old context…since TWI was in charge of renewing my mind…What TheEvan said makes a lot more sense to me now, "I've come to believe that renewing our minds is a work the Lord does in us because we are new creation people. Christianity is not a mind-control exercise..." Yeah…the Lord's in charge of true Christianity…and I guess TWI is in charge of …how did Polar Bear put it…oh yeah…violating the back door of truth. Eeeeeeewwww what does that mean? I don't know - but yeeeech - terrible mind picture...terrible...gross...yeah it's gross alright what TWI does to truth.
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socks
If I renew my mind on the same thing twice...do I get a credit?
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Dot Matrix
Oh boy did you say it right!
Renew our minds to what? To do what other people wanted?
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motherof2
i love this post..if i had a quarter everytime i was told to renew my mind..well, as the saying goes...id be rich! my relatives well they do mean well (some of them) but it is so touchy having a conversation with them about anything because the whole renew your mind thing..by His stripes we are healed..keep believing..etc.. its simpler than that..really it is!! ISNT THAT LIBERATING??!! It is all about Him...not me. There is GRACE...so much grace..I just need to spend time with Him and try my best to be obedient..THATS IT> sure we can claim scriptures, but it doesnt have to betechnical..WE DONT HAVE THAT KIND OF CONTROL. ITS HIM, HIM, HIM. i love it..i am growing as I write this.
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likeaneagle
Im not stating any bible hard facts here, but maybe Renewed Mind thinking pertains to remembering, he will never leave us or forsake us..
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skyrider
Good topic to discuss, polar bear. :)
Here is something that I pondered during my tenure in twi...........why was twi's class entitled, The Renewed Mind (past tense)..?? The connotation, to me, implies that there is a final destination that is reached. Like a plateau of spirituality.....or something.
In my bible, I read........"renewing"
To me, this means that in this life.....it is an on-going process. I am responsible and accountable to keep myself from all appearances of evil. I strive to be "a vessel of honor" [i Tim. 2:21) and meet for the master's use by purging the things of the flesh.
And yes.......I, too, believe that twi "sodomized" this great truth from the Scriptures. By the mid to late 70s, ....during wierwille's era....this terminology "the renewed mind" had been sodomized. Once again, the true scriptural meaning was lost via twi inbreeding of wayspeak.
Thanks again, polar bear.
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sirguessalot
i think perhaps vpw's maps didnt take the notion as deep or as high or as wide as he claimed they did
cuz its one thing to use clay and fire to make things without even knowing much about how it works
and quite another to insist that your particular kind, style and type of mind garden is pre-eminent
and that it would be evil to NOT repeat and spread the same kinds of templates of the mind
sharing stories are like sharing bread
our mind lives on them
especially if the McRecipe for sandwiches simply sucks and
and causes people to invenst in a unhealthy mind map
that is programmed to aggressively duplicate itself
and lacks adequate level of holy Hospitality and such to do so
but its yet another thing to know how to explore and experiment with the nature of fire and clay and building temples and gardens of our big little minds...and look at them as arts and sciences...just as any potter or temple builder would
as Eckarte Tolle might say...we are NOT our minds (or better yet..we are not MERELY merely our minds)
but if we think we are
and identify with them as our self sense
our mind will most likely defend its self-sense from destruction
as if one would react to dying
and if this same mind is used to drive the body and social behaviour
the body and society will react as if its life is being threatened
which then...makes it pretty hard to renew our cracked-pots and throw another
if we think we are merely a lump of clay looking for a spirit that we already have
the spirit is the potter that simply sees the pot
hard to become a potter of any skill if one is afraid to mash the shards of a shattered pot
and who must throw thousands of pots even to become a student
there
is the artist
and the artifact
and there is artistry that only comes from having won and lost
many many times
clay is clay
fire is fire
strange as it might sound
i think that perhaps the most effective fire vp had for the mind was his formula for speaking in tongues
and so...his hyper-xenophobic dunce cap program on scriptural interepretation had a pretty darn effective fire for polishing our idols...too bad the recipe was so imbedded with paranoia and pride
thank God all things can be redeemed and transformed
simply put...its as if we have no choice but to think creatively in order to have a free mind
what child does not know this?
how is it that men forget?
i think we forget the value of contemplation and meditation
both of which seems to help the mind free the mind from itself
by tricking it
like playing a flute
where you are both the snake and the flute player in the garden
like trying to sneak up on a thought and catch it before it pops out of its hole
...and it will likely out fox you and wait for you to be distracted again
no wonder the Kid and his Teachers and Buddies spent so much time in the dark in the woods
not putting on the breaks
or stepping on the gas
but popping in the clutch and idling
simply observing a thought (or feeling) as a strand of your own being...literally
and letting it fulfil its own natural course...and it has a tendency to self liberate
basically because we are practicing being patient with our many selves
perhaps even kindly and curiously helping comb out a tangle of the mind/heart/soul
like amother would..in way that does not disturb the natural unfolding of the brew
i dunno
gawd...thinking of twi..and i wonder how twi had come so so far from the deeper roots of christianity
thank God we can renew our minds
and become transformed in a way that requires no books or laws or rules
but is free to play with them all
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bliss
Talk about scary verses that TWI is afraid of:
"But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."
Isaiah 64:8
........."behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand..........."
Jeremiah 18:6
I am so over, telling God what to do!
This life, yes, it really is about HIM and what brings HIM glory. NOT ME. Even Christ said, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN.
My job in life is to bring HIM glory by being obedient and following HIM........ not a man, ministry, creed, or
FORMULA!!!!
ahhhh, thanks, had to get that out. Of course IMO, YOMV :)
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motherof2
bliss..that was said beautifully!
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dmiller
Good (and inspiring) answers!! This thread is offering solutions,
rather than just a "re-hash" of where twi got it wrong.
Reading some of the comments here,
gives me a new perspective on the subject.
For an *historical twi* account of the Renewed Mind --
turn to page 327 of the Orange book. Oh -- you tossed yours out??
Let me quote from mine (falling apart, cause they were too cheap to use a good binding,
or is that because it is so old and UNUSED)??
(On page 327 (hmmm -- reminds me of a Chevy engine in a Camaro I once had) ---
Docvic says --- "What does it mean to renew one's mind?
It means to *hold the Word in mind and act accordingly."
Then he gets into the greek metamorphoo and launches into Romans 12:1,2.
Well -- (I know -- deep subject for my shallow mind) ---
that coulda been right. At least Romans 12:1,2 were (imo)
But whatever was meant by that (docvic's) interpretation,
WAS IN NO WAY followed by either himself or those who endeared themselves
to twi, and put themselves in direct opposition to the Word of God.
Whatever *mouthings* of the great docvic found their way into print
were soon corrupted by himself (first and formost), and others later on.
Sure -- *Renew your mind* was a commonly/ often heard term in the way-daze.
But we (I) had a bit of trouble figuring out the spoken BY WHOM and TO WHOM
(gotta get them dang *whom's correct - dont'cha know),
when it actually came down to scriptual reproving, versus twi BS
I was told to renew my mind more than once (let's just say -- A LOT)!
And it was usually when I was confronting local leadership about an *edict* they had mandated.
When told to *renew my mind* -- it was (usually) to acquiece to what they said.
They were leadership, they represented twi, and twi represented God.
And there was the problem -- what they spoke was from an org.
I wasn't being reproved correctly according to scripture.
(But it was more than correct, coming from twi.
And there is the crux of this issue in my mind.
I have no problem wanting to line up with scripture,
and trying to do my best as I see it (in that sense renewing my mind).
But having someone tell me I am not following *Party* doctrine,
and Renew Your Mind To It stinks to High Heaven.
Meebe docvic got it right on page 327. And then again meebe he didn't.
His org surely didn't exemplify that, nor did he. What's the word they used ? Buncha pikers??
I'm liking the suggestions and possibilities I'm reading here at GSC
much more than those offered by ACP.
(Ps -- I'd throw out my orange book too, but it gives such GREAT perspective
when I read here, and then read it afterwards (or during, or in between).
You learn more at GreaseSpot Cafe by accident,
than you do at twi by design.
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WhiteDove
I would have to agree with Linda there is to much in the scriptures about us doing the renewing.
A few years ago I sat through one of W*lter C*mm*ns scripture conferences called Things New and Renewed. He came up with this as a working definition
The renewing of the mind is to be done by thinking soberly according to that which God declares to be true in the scriptures regarding all that a person has in the new nature because of Jesus Christ's accomplishments.
II Corinthians 5:17 Revised Standard
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
II Corinthians 5:17 New American Standard
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature;the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Corinthians does not say that all things are become new but rather that certain new things have been provided to those who are in Christ. Throughout the New Testament are a listing of things that have become new and some that will become new in future times like a new heaven and earth and a new body. Something that we have not read of as either having become new or that which is to be made new ,and that is the mind. We do see that instead there may be a conflict in the mind because of the two natures and the different kinds of information available.
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God
Romans speaks of transforming or transfigure, our minds did not become new when we received the new spirit nature, but rather we are instructed to not be conformed or fashioned to this world but be transformed by the renewing of ones own mind.
The perfection of those who have believed on Jesus Christ is in the new spirit life.
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
We are instructed to be thus minded, it does not say that God makes us so it says He will reveal it to us not do it for us. verse 16 tells us to walk by the same rule and to mind, or think, the same thing.
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polar bear
Great stuff White Dove-We have the Christ is us just shine forth.
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johniam
Once again TWI as a whole is blamed for a few loose cannon leaders. I left in '94; maybe it was more than a few after that.
I know some leaders used to say renew your mind just to coerce people into doing what they wanted them to do. That's like Moe of the 3 stooges saying mingle or I'll mangle. I agree with the posters who say renewing the mind is about how we think first; especially about other people. It says the love of God constraineth us. It does not say the love of God barks orders at us.
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rascal
It was more than a few loose cannons. It started at the very top with VPW and was continued with LCM.
Maybe the loose cannons in twi were the few that didn`t sodomize the followers either mentally, physically or spiritually.
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potato
woohoo!!! awesome usage of the word sodomize. I have to thank whoever it was that brought sodomize into common usage, it's such a great word.
polar bear! thanks polar bear
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bliss
Remember this verse?
2 Corinthians 10:5 "Casting down every imagination and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ."
By demanding, asking, telling, yelling at someone to ''renew their mind'', is like telling them to ''exalt their minds"above the mind of God!
Yes, we have to do one thing.....................bring every thought captive to what??? The obedience of who???
Christ.
So, we do something! yes. It is not to instruct laziness.
It is about ''surrender'' and submiting to God.
See in The Way, we would use this ''positive thinking'' statement to put a veneer of control on everything. Once we gave up negative thinking a lot of times we had nothing to hold onto, so we got angry.
You are to hold onto the word of God in your mind for sure.
But to be in the presence of God we put our mind on the things of God, His Majesty, His Glory, the transforming power of God then begins to work in us and we are transformed by the renewing of our minds!
The actual ''transforming'' is a continuous process.
We think on HIM, he works on us.
NOT a ONE TIME occurance.
This is all I have to offer.
Here is a site I study from often. An article you might enjoy.
http://preceptaustin.org/romans_1221.htm
here is some excerpts:
The word "transformed" there is in the present passive. In other words, I can’t really do this. I can initiate the process, but God has got to take care of the transforming. It is in the passive voice. Present tense means a constant thing. It is not a one-time thing. It is a constant, on-going thing,
the mind always affects the conduct. Where your mind is directly reflects where you live and how you handle things and how you perceive things, how you discern things. How you make decisions in life depends on where your mind is
I have got to learn to let the Word of God dictate to me how am I to live. If I don’t, there is a way that seems right to me but that way leads me to destruction.
Proverbs 23 it says, "As a man thinks, so is he." If I am to present my body to Him, I must begin by submitting my mind to let His Word rebuild my way of thinking, to renew, to rip out the old.
The word for "renewing" is anakainosis. It is the word for "renovate." It is not really a verb, in that sense
I have to let my mind be affected by what God says and only what God says.
Once I am willing to let my mind be renewed by the Word of God, there is a transformation in my behavior, in my character, in the way that I live. The word is present passive imperative. In other words, it is a command.
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Goey
Lots of good stuff here.
Wasn't it taught in TWI that we renewed our minds to "The Word", meaning the written Word?. Thus the retemories and other such things, the idea being that if you stuff your mind with scripture ( as interpreted by VPW/LCM et al) you become a new creation.
Wasn't it also taught that the written word basically replaced the "absent" Christ?
Now if we are to bring "every thought into capitivity to the obedience of Christ then out only choice was to be obedient to the "written Word" interpreted by TWI.
This pretty much precuded any kind of personal relationship with Christ, as he was absent.
Also Doc Vic taught that the OT was "for our learning" as opposed to for doctrine. Then he puts the Gospels (which include the words spoken by Jesus) into the Old Testament and in a different "administration" so that they basically don't apply to us. How may times in TWI did you ever hear "Jesus said ....." ? Not many I bet. Heard a lot of "Paul said ..." and "Doctor said ..." but not too much of "Jesus said ..." And it is to Christ that we are to bring our thoughts into obedience?
Scripture is good as far as it goes but is no replacement or substitute for our living Lord and Saviour - Jesus Christ.
I have come to believe that the "renewed mind" has little if anything to do with "scripture" (memorizing, quoting, disecting, etc) and a whole more lot to do with a personal relationship with Christ.
Consider that the very early Christians to whom Paul spoke of the renewed mind, did not have Bibles with the Gospels and all the letters of Paul and Peter to memorize. So that couldn't have been what Paul was referring to in regards to the "renewed mind."
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