When Jesus was born, Timex was still awaiting approval of their watch patent.
Hence, Mary wore no watch and could not have told you the exact moment herself.
If it wasn't important enough for his own mother to know, why should I give a flying pig's ear?
Now, I recognize there is a difference between a fool(even a fool could not err) and someone of low intellect, but it is hard to believe that God would exclude someone with Down's Syndrome simply because they lacked the ability to conjugate verbs in the Greek text.(Heck, I can't even do that.)
I remember lcm going off topic one service and yelling about how "we're coming close to finding the exact minute of Jesus' birth."
OOOOOO AHHHHHH --- What the heck good did it do him if he couldnt even figure out not to boink those he was 'serving' in the body of christ, still liked to yell and spit on people and spent a large amount of his time acting like an ignoramous?
other than buildup his own inflated sense of self importance. anything at all?
Talk about straining at a gnat
I suppose that there is nothing wrong with finding interesting details but they shouldnt be an end unto themselves. What is the practical import of a lot of their stuff? The Way's penchant to want to razzle dazzle people left giant obvios unfilled gaps in the hull of their sinking ship.
Give me someone who who lives the basic simple message anyday
OOOOOO AHHHHHH --- What the heck good did it do him if he couldnt even figure out not to boink those he was 'serving' in the body of christ, still liked to yell and spit on people and spent a large amount of his time acting like an ignoramous?
How about it mstar1? That's the truth right there. So concerned with the great "details" of the scriptures that you can't even understand that you should treat people with kindness, slow to speak, slow to wrath.
"Hey everybody I know the exact minute Jesus Christ was born, now worship me you dogs!"
Does God via the Bible even want us to know these details? Do they deepen our understanding of God's message?
Well God says that if we want wisdom we have to dig for it. And there are certainly those who "dig" more than others. I think there are plenty of details to be discovered by those who want to know God enough to take the time to think, ponder, meditate, pray and search for the understanding.
Any details left by God to be discovered are valuable. They may not be essential, but preaching the gospel is not the only thing God wants us to do. He also wants a relationship with the individual and the more details you have, the more you know not just "the message" but the God behind the message.
Because of this, I feel searching for details in the scripture is never a waste of time.
Does God want us to use some (intelligent) imagination in interpreting the Bible? (can more than one interpretation lead to God's desired result?)
I would have to say yes. Consider the record of Samson:
Judges 16:4-10
Some time later, he (Samson) fell in love with a woman in the Valley of Sorek whose name was Delilah.
The rulers of the Philistines went to her and said, "See if you can lure him into showing you the secret of his great strength and how we can overpower him so we may tie him up and subdue him. Each one of us will give you eleven hundred shekels of silver."
So Delilah said to Samson, "Tell me the secret of your great strength and how you can be tied up and subdued."
Samson answered her, "If anyone ties me with seven fresh thongs that have not been dried, I'll become as weak as any other man."
Then the rulers of the Philistines brought her seven fresh thongs that had not been dried, and she tied him with them.
With men hidden in the room, she called to him, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!" But he snapped the thongs as easily as a piece of string snaps when it comes close to a flame. So the secret of his strength was not discovered.
Then Delilah said to Samson, "You have made a fool of me; you lied to me. Come now, tell me how you can be tied."
This threw me for a long time. I thought, good grief, Samson why are you hanging around someone that you obviously know is trying to kill you?
I would have been furious with Delilah! And I'm sure Samson was too. He knew he was betrayed, he knew she was selling him out. I'm sure he stormed off and they didn't speak for awhile (like would happen with most people in this type of situation.) I'm sure there was a reunion at some point where they would have exchanged thoughts on what happened (v.10) and started hanging around again. Slowly she would have rebuilt the trust until she could get around to asking again, "tell me the secret of your great strength".
The scripture doesn't say any of this, yet this had to be how it went down. Isn't that real life? But God wants you to play it out in your mind and think about the records. It helps them become very alive in your mind.
This is exactly the time and energy it takes to understand the scriptures. People who don't care to know the scriptures will never put in the kind of work and humility necessary to understand them.
God could have written the scriptures so that they were easy to understand. Some things are but many things aren't. Even Christ spoke in parables so the people wouldn't understand, but when he was alone with his disciples he explained everything. (Mark 4:34)
"Hey everybody I know the exact minute Jesus Christ was born, now worship me you dogs!"
Docvic already had it *figured out*. Perhaps lcm wanted to *refine* that.
In JCOPS (page 85) it reads ---
Virgo was the constellation signifying the woman and her seed as prophesied in Genesis 3:15. And on September 11, 3 B.C., the sun was positioned in the midst of Virgo while the new moon was directly under Virgo's feet -- this configuration corresponding exactly to the description in Revelation 12 regarding the Messiah's birth.
This stellar arrangement was visible in Palestine from sunset at 6:18 P.M. until moonset at 7:39 P.M.
Thus it was during this eighty-one minute period on the night of September 11, 3 B.C.
that Jesus Christ was born in a stable in Bethlehem.
You may be interested to know the saying, "God is in the details", is a quote from Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, a famous architect of the early 20th century. I believe he also coined the phrase, "Less is more".
Does God want us to use some (intelligent) imagination in interpreting the Bible? (can more than one interpretation lead to God's desired result?)
I think that is indeed one of the true "keys" to research, that was shunned like the plague in der ministry.
I always wondered about the quotations of the bible, where the bible quotes itself. I forget the exact statistics, but about ninety nine percent of the time, the quotes are not an exact copy, or anything even near it. Rarely does the new context fit with the old one the quote was taken from.
I read Bullinger about Gnome. He talked about the words of David about Ahitophel. Peter comes along "by inspiration" and says forget the context, it was really about Judas.
Who was right?
Or is there a "right" and a "wrong" in understanding all the details?
I don't think so today.
Words are added, changed, shuffled around. Forget the details, context is abandoned. Cardinal sins, by the "standards" of PFAL.
You'd think God would take more due diligence to details when he read the bible..
I remember in the class ole doc criticizing sunday school teachers. He was practically foaming at the mouth over somebody saying "this is what I think it means". "You don't think, you read.." "You read WHAT'S WRITTEN, and YOU STAY PUT."
"I don't care what YOU, or anyone else THINKS".
I believe that you can get so caught up in the details, that no thinking is necessary.
You may be interested to know the saying, "God is in the details", is a quote from Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, a famous architect of the early 20th century. I believe he also coined the phrase, "Less is more".
Thanks Kevlar - I had two roomies that studied architecture but I still didn't know that - and one of them practically worshipped Mies van der Rohe. I stand corrected. Thanks ;)
HEY! I'm having those ceramic baby shoes made for Jesus so not only do I need the EXACT minute of his birth - I need his birth weight and length as well.......
Martindale always postured himself as "carrying the burden" of his immense spirituality...He wanted so badly to impress other people...and once they were duly impressed, he set about bullying them with his arrogant attitude and his mean spirited mouth...
The question is...what was it that was just beneath the surface in his psychological makeup for him to WANT to be this way?
I say that he was an insecure individual with deep seated feelings of inferiority...and there was no reason for him to feel this way...I mean, being a second string football player at the college level is nothing to sneeze at.
Jesus wasn't born in this world at all. At least half the earliest Christians believed that He beamed down to the planet earth, not unlike our modern day myth of Captain Kirk
and his landing crew. Though it's too bad Jesus was wearing a red shirt.
Does God via the Bible even want us to know these details? Do they deepen our understanding of God's message?
Does God want us to use some (intelligent) imagination in interpreting the Bible? (can more than one interpretation lead to God's desired result?)
I think that we all interpret the Bible as it aplies to us in the moment. I also think this the best way to read the Bible. Let God talk you as you read.
I learned more from just letting the spirit minister to me in a read then any teaching from any man who interpreted the Bibe for me.
NO The details don't matter that much. What matters is you and God.....others may never see it like God shows it to you......On the other hand others may really get blessed when you share from the heart what God has showed you.........today.......not 15 year old way teachings.
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waysider
When Jesus was born, Timex was still awaiting approval of their watch patent.
Hence, Mary wore no watch and could not have told you the exact moment herself.
If it wasn't important enough for his own mother to know, why should I give a flying pig's ear?
Now, I recognize there is a difference between a fool(even a fool could not err) and someone of low intellect, but it is hard to believe that God would exclude someone with Down's Syndrome simply because they lacked the ability to conjugate verbs in the Greek text.(Heck, I can't even do that.)
Just my opinion.
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mstar1
OOOOOO AHHHHHH ---
What the heck good did it do him if he couldnt even figure out not to boink those he was 'serving' in the body of christ, still liked to yell and spit on people and spent a large amount of his time acting like an ignoramous?
other than buildup his own inflated sense of self importance. anything at all?
Talk about straining at a gnat
I suppose that there is nothing wrong with finding interesting details but they shouldnt be an end unto themselves. What is the practical import of a lot of their stuff? The Way's penchant to want to razzle dazzle people left giant obvios unfilled gaps in the hull of their sinking ship.
Give me someone who who lives the basic simple message anyday
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TrustAndObey
Bolshevik,
What is the purpose of the scriptures? To have head knowledge? I think not.. Maybe something to do in our freetime, but certainly not the goal..
1 Timothy 1:5 "Now the goal of the commandments are love out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and unaltered trust [in God]"
Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth..."
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WhiteDove
Oh No!!!............... tell me you just did not just say that....... Yer gonna be in trouble...........
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Lone Wolf McQuade
mstar1, you said...
How about it mstar1? That's the truth right there. So concerned with the great "details" of the scriptures that you can't even understand that you should treat people with kindness, slow to speak, slow to wrath.
"Hey everybody I know the exact minute Jesus Christ was born, now worship me you dogs!"
Lone Wolf
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Bolshevik, you said...
Well God says that if we want wisdom we have to dig for it. And there are certainly those who "dig" more than others. I think there are plenty of details to be discovered by those who want to know God enough to take the time to think, ponder, meditate, pray and search for the understanding.Any details left by God to be discovered are valuable. They may not be essential, but preaching the gospel is not the only thing God wants us to do. He also wants a relationship with the individual and the more details you have, the more you know not just "the message" but the God behind the message.
Because of this, I feel searching for details in the scripture is never a waste of time.
I would have to say yes. Consider the record of Samson:
Judges 16:4-10
Some time later, he (Samson) fell in love with a woman in the Valley of Sorek whose name was Delilah.
The rulers of the Philistines went to her and said, "See if you can lure him into showing you the secret of his great strength and how we can overpower him so we may tie him up and subdue him. Each one of us will give you eleven hundred shekels of silver."
So Delilah said to Samson, "Tell me the secret of your great strength and how you can be tied up and subdued."
Samson answered her, "If anyone ties me with seven fresh thongs that have not been dried, I'll become as weak as any other man."
Then the rulers of the Philistines brought her seven fresh thongs that had not been dried, and she tied him with them.
With men hidden in the room, she called to him, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!" But he snapped the thongs as easily as a piece of string snaps when it comes close to a flame. So the secret of his strength was not discovered.
Then Delilah said to Samson, "You have made a fool of me; you lied to me. Come now, tell me how you can be tied."
This threw me for a long time. I thought, good grief, Samson why are you hanging around someone that you obviously know is trying to kill you?
I would have been furious with Delilah! And I'm sure Samson was too. He knew he was betrayed, he knew she was selling him out. I'm sure he stormed off and they didn't speak for awhile (like would happen with most people in this type of situation.) I'm sure there was a reunion at some point where they would have exchanged thoughts on what happened (v.10) and started hanging around again. Slowly she would have rebuilt the trust until she could get around to asking again, "tell me the secret of your great strength".
The scripture doesn't say any of this, yet this had to be how it went down. Isn't that real life? But God wants you to play it out in your mind and think about the records. It helps them become very alive in your mind.
This is exactly the time and energy it takes to understand the scriptures. People who don't care to know the scriptures will never put in the kind of work and humility necessary to understand them.
God could have written the scriptures so that they were easy to understand. Some things are but many things aren't. Even Christ spoke in parables so the people wouldn't understand, but when he was alone with his disciples he explained everything. (Mark 4:34)
Lone Wolf McQuade
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likeaneagle
I totaly agree......some wont
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doojable
Just for the record....the saying really goes:
The DEVIL is in the details.
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dmiller
In JCOPS (page 85) it reads ---
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Bolshevik
no no
exact minute
not 81 minute period
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Kevlar2000
Dooj,
You may be interested to know the saying, "God is in the details", is a quote from Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, a famous architect of the early 20th century. I believe he also coined the phrase, "Less is more".
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Ham
I think that is indeed one of the true "keys" to research, that was shunned like the plague in der ministry.
I always wondered about the quotations of the bible, where the bible quotes itself. I forget the exact statistics, but about ninety nine percent of the time, the quotes are not an exact copy, or anything even near it. Rarely does the new context fit with the old one the quote was taken from.
I read Bullinger about Gnome. He talked about the words of David about Ahitophel. Peter comes along "by inspiration" and says forget the context, it was really about Judas.
Who was right?
Or is there a "right" and a "wrong" in understanding all the details?
I don't think so today.
Words are added, changed, shuffled around. Forget the details, context is abandoned. Cardinal sins, by the "standards" of PFAL.
You'd think God would take more due diligence to details when he read the bible..
I remember in the class ole doc criticizing sunday school teachers. He was practically foaming at the mouth over somebody saying "this is what I think it means". "You don't think, you read.." "You read WHAT'S WRITTEN, and YOU STAY PUT."
"I don't care what YOU, or anyone else THINKS".
I believe that you can get so caught up in the details, that no thinking is necessary.
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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Ham
Yep. And when the lord returns, he's gonna call the Pope from New Knoxville and box his ears, verifying this "scintillating" bit of detail.
Ah, the dreams and aspirations of a half-baked yokel..
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doojable
Thanks Kevlar - I had two roomies that studied architecture but I still didn't know that - and one of them practically worshipped Mies van der Rohe. I stand corrected. Thanks ;)
I have heard it the way I've coined it tho.....
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doojable
HEY! I'm having those ceramic baby shoes made for Jesus so not only do I need the EXACT minute of his birth - I need his birth weight and length as well.......
You Bible scholars better get right on it.....!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Martindale always postured himself as "carrying the burden" of his immense spirituality...He wanted so badly to impress other people...and once they were duly impressed, he set about bullying them with his arrogant attitude and his mean spirited mouth...
The question is...what was it that was just beneath the surface in his psychological makeup for him to WANT to be this way?
I say that he was an insecure individual with deep seated feelings of inferiority...and there was no reason for him to feel this way...I mean, being a second string football player at the college level is nothing to sneeze at.
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Ham
Freud might say that they spanked him a lot because he was being rather rebellious when he was being potty trained..
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Nottawayfer
Knowing the EXACT time of Jesus's birth makes you more holy and what? It does what for your relationship with God?
My opinion was that TWI wanted to use that stuff to snow us over and make us believe we were the only ones with TRUTH.
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TheInvisibleDan
Jesus wasn't born in this world at all. At least half the earliest Christians believed that He beamed down to the planet earth, not unlike our modern day myth of Captain Kirk
and his landing crew. Though it's too bad Jesus was wearing a red shirt.
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Patrick and Sarah
I think that we all interpret the Bible as it aplies to us in the moment. I also think this the best way to read the Bible. Let God talk you as you read.
I learned more from just letting the spirit minister to me in a read then any teaching from any man who interpreted the Bibe for me.
NO The details don't matter that much. What matters is you and God.....others may never see it like God shows it to you......On the other hand others may really get blessed when you share from the heart what God has showed you.........today.......not 15 year old way teachings.
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