Interestingly enough, the pastor where we go to church taught on this same subject, out of Eph 5. He emphasized three things, at least two of which have been mentioned here.
1) Believers are ALL supposed to SUBMIT ONE TO ANOTHER!
2) Wives are to submit to THEIR OWN HUSBANDS, not every male who comes down the pike. Men who think women are supposed to be treated as slaves are dispicable.
3) Husbands are to love their wives AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH. That's a lotta love. It involves a tremendous amount of sacrifice. Christ gave His life for the church. The husband should be willing to lay down his life for his wife.
The way I look at it, Jesus Christ, because of His love and His sacrifice, is worthy of the respect of the church. Therefore, husbands are to love their wives and sacrifice for them such that they are WORTHY of their wife's respect.
That whole passage is two-fold. One sentence will refer to the marriage relationship, the next to the relationship between Christ and the church.
No part of TWI's attitude toward women measures up to this chapter of Ephesians. In practice, they were a lot closer to Taliban.
Good for JohnIam and Mr. Garden and other men who practice Godly husbandship rather than TWI's. And shame on the men who do or did not and the women who let them!
I worked with a guy who opened doors for our boss said everything she wanted t hear and told her she was all the world needed.
to the rest of the women he was the most abusive man verbaly and degraded us every chance we got.
the fact your husband does not say or do things to you means nothing to me.
I know a guy who bows to his wife every demand yet he has left a trail of abuse in his first wife and children that should have put him in jail.
he needs and loves you as you define your relationship that does not mean he is incapable of abuse to others.
some of the worst crimes are comminted by pillars of the community who have done very well in what life determines as success, yet surprise that mild mannered neighbor who was so sweet did WHAT?
i think of the wifes who had no clue thier hubby was doing what they were doing till they got caught because he is a good husband and father at home.
im not saying your man is any thing i do not know the guy but your theory of how he defended you proves nothing to me about how he treats people.
Oldies, do you think the above examples represent a man loving his wife as Christ loved the church?
QUOTE
absolutely
Mr. Hammeroni, I think you may have misunderstood Oldies posts. I posted between there and I think the word 'absolutely' referred to my post, not yours.
Quote: Well, thanks, I guess. But why are you trying to convince anyone? You're the one who lives with him, not us. I was under the impression that you didn't care what any of us thought, and had explained away phrases like "clock her like she deserves". My mistake. My apologies. End quote.
I don't particularly. I mention a facet of his character that most of you who THINK you know him are unaware of. And BTW, I'm sure you don't want to be married to him. Very funny, lol. BTW, don't start me thinking about human sacrifices again.
Quote: "Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need.
Meet me at 9am.' I thought,
'Women never tell the truth.' " End quote.
Without trying to justify his behavior (which I admit is extreme), I wonder what in his dealings with women led to the conclusion of 'Women never tell the truth'.
Without trying to justify his behavior (which I admit is extreme), I wonder what in his dealings with women led to the conclusion of 'Women never tell the truth'.
Like it or not, the Way taught (or teaches) the bible and the bible teaches that the wife be subject to the husband (Eph 5: 22-24).
After all we once were participants in a BIBLICAL group who believed the BIBLE is the word of God?
Nobody was forced to do this and we consented to it, year after year.
This does present a problem for the wife if she does not want to live like that. Of course it does. The whole damn bible presents a problem if one doesn't want to live like that.
But I am still of the opinion that folks should stop blaming twi for something that the bible says right there in plain English.
I would add, I think husbands who love their wives as Christ loved the church are worthy of the wives submission.
1. The Bible has nothing to do with twi
2. twi teaches in practice for the wife to submit to her Department Coordinator. The husband is an accessory.
And, for anyone who thinks being married to John is a fate worse than death (but not totally off topic) I had a situation recently in which the believer I had asked to housesit for us tried to 'reprove' me with the Word on the subject of what it meant to be 'the keeper of the home'. Before he got three sentences into his tirade, John shut him up with, 'Jean works very hard to keep the house as clean as she can, and if you don't like it, feel free not to come here again'. The gentleman stamped out with a very red face and has since sent me a very nice letter of apology. I just thought I would throw that out there for anyone who might think that John degrades women.
Interesting glimpse of your ex way connections.
I'm not surprised at all to hear there are those around you into the hyper critical 'reproof' and boundary jumping we saw so much of in the nineties. Not surprised at all.
I suspect there may have been a bit of a pi$$ ng contest going on there, too--I'm the man o god!-- NO ,I'M the man o god!
But I'm glad John stuck up for you--makes your life a whole less complicated. No one needs that kind of misery.
jeannieyam, next time tell the two of them to clean it !!!!! you'll supervise
Works for me, although John is very good at doing more than his share of housework (we're going through one of those phases in our marriage when we both have jobs). Thanks for your support.
I feel for women who need to work but still do all the house work on top of a 40 hr week, when they have an able bodied spouse who could help but doesn't.
Says a lot about his character. In public, he put Dotsie on a pedestal.. everything was probably ok as long as she stayed there.
Being on a pedestal is no great place to be, either. The man doesn't love his wife, he loves an idealized version of his wife, a version she can't possibly live up to. Believe me, been there. I still get an occasional letter from the innie ex-husband who insults me up one side and down the other, then tells me he still "loves" me and that I should beg for him to come back....
Boy, when I look back, there was so much stuff taught that was degrading that I just didn't catch.
In the old Christian Family & Sex class, the triangle? God speaks to Abraham, Abraham speaks to Sarah. Sarah speaks to Abraham, and Abraham goes to God for both of them!. (emphasis was VPW's). He describes it as a triangle, but there's only two sides; Sarah doesn't go to God on her own. She speaks to Abraham and he speaks to God on her behalf. I honestly thought for a while that married women weren't supposed to pray. But I couldn't stop myself.
There is an actual, blatant contradiction of that in the next generation that changes the course of Biblical history. Rebecaa, Sarah's daughter-in-law, is pregnant with twins and having a difficult time of it. She herself goes to God and asks for help and understanding. And He tells her the younger shall serve the older.
Anyways, how such a blatant lie or to be generous mistake never got corrected is beyond me. Or maybe it's my misunderstanding. But I had to take that class many times, and I heard it over and over, the wife goes to the husband and the husband goes to God for both of them.
Sure am glad God doesn't view women the same way those jerks did.
WG, you bring up a very important point. I don't know how it reads in the translations of Christian Bibles off the top of my head, but in the Jewish translation of the OT, over and over and over again women went to God themselves, husbands conferred with wives and were sometimes even told by God to listen to their wives.
Examples - God told Abraham to listen to his wife regarding Ishmael.
When Isaac wanted to marry Rebecca, Rebecca's parents ASKED her what SHE wanted to do.
When the inheritence was passed down from Isaac, it was done in accordance to what Rebecca knew was best
When Jacob left Laban's land with Rachel and Leah, he ASKED THEM IF they would come with him.
I feel for women who need to work but still do all the house work on top of a 40 hr week, when they have an able bodied spouse who could help but doesn't.
That's pretty degrading!
Well, only one of them. Most of them are very good people.
I agree. We ran into one interesting situation during our last ROA. Some of the Corps women arranged their work schedules so they could watch each other's children instead of leaving them with their fathers. These same women (and men) held John in contempt because he watched his own children and was so p#$$&-whipped that he was willing to change poopy diapers. I think that's ridiculous.
REAL men change poopy diapers whenever needed. Real men get out the vacuum cleaner whenever needed. Real men stay with their wives in the ER all day long, having taken off work to come home to take care of her.
Real men put their wives and families way above a piddling little imitation ministry.
I disagree...It was a ministry that USED the bible as a weapon for a bunch of sadistic bastards to manipulate people into accepting outragious abuse in the name of God that they would havenever otherwise tolerated.
If you stayed around for years, you consented to it.
That may be true.. but.
Your participation acknowledged your own belief in it.
is an unwarranted conclusion. I think some tolerated it, put up with it, endured it, perhaps thought there wasn't anything better .. but really believed it? Can't simply say that for everybody. Some were coerced.
Quote: "Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need.
Meet me at 9am.' I thought,
'Women never tell the truth.' " End quote.
Without trying to justify his behavior (which I admit is extreme), I wonder what in his dealings with women led to the conclusion of 'Women never tell the truth'.
Whatever led to his conclusion, he was being a hypocrite...Mr. Wierwille taught repeatedly from the bible that "all men are liars"...in other words, why did he believe the woman's husband?...
Wierwille came from an era of male chauvinism and a background that kept women "in their place"...his entire life was saturated with this belief system. He used the bible to justify his position...it made it much easier for him to sexually abuse women when, in his own mind, they were "inferior" and deserved to be treated as objects. Many of the women in the "early years"of twi that were ordained, paid a high price for their "ordination"...I know of several of them that were Wierwille's personal mistresses.
Christian minister?...No, I'm sorry, the man didn't qualify for that title...he was a sexual predator who cloaked his evil deeds under the thin veneer of Christianity.
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Watered Garden
Interestingly enough, the pastor where we go to church taught on this same subject, out of Eph 5. He emphasized three things, at least two of which have been mentioned here.
1) Believers are ALL supposed to SUBMIT ONE TO ANOTHER!
2) Wives are to submit to THEIR OWN HUSBANDS, not every male who comes down the pike. Men who think women are supposed to be treated as slaves are dispicable.
3) Husbands are to love their wives AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH. That's a lotta love. It involves a tremendous amount of sacrifice. Christ gave His life for the church. The husband should be willing to lay down his life for his wife.
The way I look at it, Jesus Christ, because of His love and His sacrifice, is worthy of the respect of the church. Therefore, husbands are to love their wives and sacrifice for them such that they are WORTHY of their wife's respect.
That whole passage is two-fold. One sentence will refer to the marriage relationship, the next to the relationship between Christ and the church.
No part of TWI's attitude toward women measures up to this chapter of Ephesians. In practice, they were a lot closer to Taliban.
Good for JohnIam and Mr. Garden and other men who practice Godly husbandship rather than TWI's. And shame on the men who do or did not and the women who let them!
WG
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waysider
Perhaps that explains why you may have been unaware of the true nature of TWI's sanctioned lifestyle.
Just a thought.
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pond
yeah well i do not believe it.
I worked with a guy who opened doors for our boss said everything she wanted t hear and told her she was all the world needed.
to the rest of the women he was the most abusive man verbaly and degraded us every chance we got.
the fact your husband does not say or do things to you means nothing to me.
I know a guy who bows to his wife every demand yet he has left a trail of abuse in his first wife and children that should have put him in jail.
he needs and loves you as you define your relationship that does not mean he is incapable of abuse to others.
some of the worst crimes are comminted by pillars of the community who have done very well in what life determines as success, yet surprise that mild mannered neighbor who was so sweet did WHAT?
i think of the wifes who had no clue thier hubby was doing what they were doing till they got caught because he is a good husband and father at home.
im not saying your man is any thing i do not know the guy but your theory of how he defended you proves nothing to me about how he treats people.
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Jeaniam
QUOTE
Oldies, do you think the above examples represent a man loving his wife as Christ loved the church?
QUOTE
absolutely
Mr. Hammeroni, I think you may have misunderstood Oldies posts. I posted between there and I think the word 'absolutely' referred to my post, not yours.
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Jeaniam
Quote: Well, thanks, I guess. But why are you trying to convince anyone? You're the one who lives with him, not us. I was under the impression that you didn't care what any of us thought, and had explained away phrases like "clock her like she deserves". My mistake. My apologies. End quote.
I don't particularly. I mention a facet of his character that most of you who THINK you know him are unaware of. And BTW, I'm sure you don't want to be married to him. Very funny, lol. BTW, don't start me thinking about human sacrifices again.
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Jeaniam
Quote: "Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need.
Meet me at 9am.' I thought,
'Women never tell the truth.' " End quote.
Without trying to justify his behavior (which I admit is extreme), I wonder what in his dealings with women led to the conclusion of 'Women never tell the truth'.
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excathedra
maybe his mom told him he would rule the world
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Bolshevik
1. The Bible has nothing to do with twi
2. twi teaches in practice for the wife to submit to her Department Coordinator. The husband is an accessory.
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Bramble
Interesting glimpse of your ex way connections.
I'm not surprised at all to hear there are those around you into the hyper critical 'reproof' and boundary jumping we saw so much of in the nineties. Not surprised at all.
I suspect there may have been a bit of a pi$$ ng contest going on there, too--I'm the man o god!-- NO ,I'M the man o god!
But I'm glad John stuck up for you--makes your life a whole less complicated. No one needs that kind of misery.
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excathedra
jeannieyam, next time tell the two of them to clean it !!!!! you'll supervise
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Jeaniam
Works for me, although John is very good at doing more than his share of housework (we're going through one of those phases in our marriage when we both have jobs). Thanks for your support.
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Bramble
I feel for women who need to work but still do all the house work on top of a 40 hr week, when they have an able bodied spouse who could help but doesn't.
That's pretty degrading!
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shazdancer
Being on a pedestal is no great place to be, either. The man doesn't love his wife, he loves an idealized version of his wife, a version she can't possibly live up to. Believe me, been there. I still get an occasional letter from the innie ex-husband who insults me up one side and down the other, then tells me he still "loves" me and that I should beg for him to come back....
'Scuse me while I guffaw....
:D
Shaz
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Oakspear
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Jeaniam
I notice you don't live terribly far away.
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Watered Garden
Boy, when I look back, there was so much stuff taught that was degrading that I just didn't catch.
In the old Christian Family & Sex class, the triangle? God speaks to Abraham, Abraham speaks to Sarah. Sarah speaks to Abraham, and Abraham goes to God for both of them!. (emphasis was VPW's). He describes it as a triangle, but there's only two sides; Sarah doesn't go to God on her own. She speaks to Abraham and he speaks to God on her behalf. I honestly thought for a while that married women weren't supposed to pray. But I couldn't stop myself.
There is an actual, blatant contradiction of that in the next generation that changes the course of Biblical history. Rebecaa, Sarah's daughter-in-law, is pregnant with twins and having a difficult time of it. She herself goes to God and asks for help and understanding. And He tells her the younger shall serve the older.
Anyways, how such a blatant lie or to be generous mistake never got corrected is beyond me. Or maybe it's my misunderstanding. But I had to take that class many times, and I heard it over and over, the wife goes to the husband and the husband goes to God for both of them.
Sure am glad God doesn't view women the same way those jerks did.
WG
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Abigail
WG, you bring up a very important point. I don't know how it reads in the translations of Christian Bibles off the top of my head, but in the Jewish translation of the OT, over and over and over again women went to God themselves, husbands conferred with wives and were sometimes even told by God to listen to their wives.
Examples - God told Abraham to listen to his wife regarding Ishmael.
When Isaac wanted to marry Rebecca, Rebecca's parents ASKED her what SHE wanted to do.
When the inheritence was passed down from Isaac, it was done in accordance to what Rebecca knew was best
When Jacob left Laban's land with Rachel and Leah, he ASKED THEM IF they would come with him.
The list could go on and on.
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Jeaniam
Well, only one of them. Most of them are very good people.
I agree. We ran into one interesting situation during our last ROA. Some of the Corps women arranged their work schedules so they could watch each other's children instead of leaving them with their fathers. These same women (and men) held John in contempt because he watched his own children and was so p#$$&-whipped that he was willing to change poopy diapers. I think that's ridiculous.
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Watered Garden
REAL men change poopy diapers whenever needed. Real men get out the vacuum cleaner whenever needed. Real men stay with their wives in the ER all day long, having taken off work to come home to take care of her.
Real men put their wives and families way above a piddling little imitation ministry.
WG
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Ham
And if I may but add:
Real men don't look like this.
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oldiesman
Still, in Genesis 3:16, God said to the woman "he shall have rule over thee".
TWI was being biblical in teaching that the husband is to rule (with love) over the wife.
Like it or not, that's what it was , a biblical ministry.
If you stayed around for years, you consented to it. Your participation acknowledged your own belief in it.
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rascal
I disagree...It was a ministry that USED the bible as a weapon for a bunch of sadistic bastards to manipulate people into accepting outragious abuse in the name of God that they would havenever otherwise tolerated.
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Ham
is an unwarranted conclusion. I think some tolerated it, put up with it, endured it, perhaps thought there wasn't anything better .. but really believed it? Can't simply say that for everybody. Some were coerced.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Whatever led to his conclusion, he was being a hypocrite...Mr. Wierwille taught repeatedly from the bible that "all men are liars"...in other words, why did he believe the woman's husband?...
Wierwille came from an era of male chauvinism and a background that kept women "in their place"...his entire life was saturated with this belief system. He used the bible to justify his position...it made it much easier for him to sexually abuse women when, in his own mind, they were "inferior" and deserved to be treated as objects. Many of the women in the "early years"of twi that were ordained, paid a high price for their "ordination"...I know of several of them that were Wierwille's personal mistresses.
Christian minister?...No, I'm sorry, the man didn't qualify for that title...he was a sexual predator who cloaked his evil deeds under the thin veneer of Christianity.
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