I understand, so are you saying that it's basically the loving father taking care of you as he sees fit model, or something like it?
I guess I'm stating the obvious. "No" is an answer just as much as "yes" or "maybe" or " later."
In TWI only saw the "Yes" answers as being true answers. Hence, only "yes" answers were "evidence" of believing. In many ways were like spoiled brats. If we didn't get our way - we whined. Not to mention how we were treated by others.
That example of the father not giving a stone for bread...that was completely overlooked when it came to any subject other than holy spirit. I wonder how many times we were asking for stones that just looked like bread. The line in "The Lord's Prayer" that states, "Thy will be done," is something we had a hard time with - it seems. We didn't seem to like to hand over the controls to God. Makes me wonder just how loving we really thought He was...
I tried to teach this while "in" but no one liked it and I just got ignored.
We many times get answers to prayer - we just aren't always happy with the answer. Any parent knows that kids don't always want what's best for them. ( I NEED a car. BUT I WANT a Ferrari! :) Forget about the fact that I can't afford the upkeep, expenses, and the fines I'll incur driving that bad boy. )
We were taught to look at things spiritually, yet when it came right down to it folks were judged by five-senses criteria.
I don't think that the folks who pray for specifics are trying to "yank God's chain" - just trying to understand how belief in answered prayer can be reconciled with the lack of answers.
Those words were mine. I wasn't accusing you of taking that position. Give me some more time to gather my thoughts and I'll try to explain this one a bit better.
Frankly I don't think most people understand prayer, nor do they have a clear idea of what they mean when they say "prayer".
You make a good point with your "stones for bread" example.
The whole "thy will be done" mindset seems more in line with what actually happens, notwithstanding verses that imply "believing" for things. Seems like a contradiction to me, but contradictions within the bible are not a problem from my end of the pool
...and dooj, I think what most people mean when they talk about answers to prayer are the yeses. Lots of folks, even on this board, use tangible results from prayer as a "proof", or a witness of the truth of the bible. The "nos" are ignored or glossed over.
...and dooj, I think what most people mean when they talk about answers to prayer are the yeses. Lots of folks, even on this board, use tangible results from prayer as a "proof", or a witness of the truth of the bible. The "nos" are ignored or glossed over.
I'm not so sure. If God already said it's available to pray for stuff then doing that is part of living the relationship. At worst, the camera analogy et al is a placebo to help people who think they are "too sinful" for God to give a crap about them.
quote: My problem with that is there seems to be no rhyme or reason to when prayers get results and when they don't.
It's not about the prayer; it's about the relationship. I don't give my kids everything they ask me for, but they still know I love them.
I also agree with you, and like WordWolf, believe that it contradicts what TWI taught, what the verses literally say and what most folks actually believe.
The TWI model of prayer takes the relationship out of the picture (remember: saint & sinner alike)
To address the parent-child analogy: most parents tell their children why they are not receiving something that they asked for, the answer from God appears to be silence.
But to me, the model that posits a loving father who takes care of his children and loving children who simply trust their heavenly father to do the best for them over the long term seems to fit the facts better than "believing = receiving" or other versions of "answered prayer".
"The law of believing works for saint and sinner alike."
Yep---Mr. Wierwille said that.
How does that figure into having a "relationship" with God?
In fact, I don't see any evidence of a "relationship" at all in that statement, just a cold calculated approach to deciding what you think God should give you or do in your life. And, hey, you can even leave God out of it entirely if you so choose to take that approach.
It's good to maintain a positive outlook on life because having a negative outlook can have negative effects on your physical well being. That's a proven medical fact. It has nothing to do with whether or not the "law" of believing can generate results.
I'm not trying to negate anyone's belief in God or his ability to honor his promises.
I'm just saying it's kinda cheesy to try to blackmail him using a loophole in the scriptures.
quote: The TWI model of prayer takes the relationship out of the picture (remember: saint & sinner alike)
That doesn't make sense: sinners don't pray. Like I said earlier, VP broke down believing into 5 categories, only one of which is available to those not born again, which is natural believing, which works for saint and sinner alike. It is possible at times for a saint to have little faith and for a sinner to have great faith (natural believing).
The faith of Jesus Christ is an extention of natural believing. To pray with believing. a born again one must use their own believing just like they did before they got born again, but since they're now born again, it's not just natural believing, it's the faith of Jesus Christ, which accesses a relationship with God.
quote: The TWI model of prayer takes the relationship out of the picture (remember: saint & sinner alike)
That doesn't make sense: sinners don't pray. Like I said earlier, VP broke down believing into 5 categories, only one of which is available to those not born again, which is natural believing, which works for saint and sinner alike. It is possible at times for a saint to have little faith and for a sinner to have great faith (natural believing).
The faith of Jesus Christ is an extention of natural believing. To pray with believing. a born again one must use their own believing just like they did before they got born again, but since they're now born again, it's not just natural believing, it's the faith of Jesus Christ, which accesses a relationship with God.
Speak for yourself, waysider.
Where can I find this reference to the 5 different kinds of believing?
Just curious.
"That doesn't make sense: sinners don't pray."
Yes, John, that is my point.
If this so-called *believing* works for saint and sinner alike, how does a relationship with God or Jesus factor into the equation?
The way I understand biblical prayer, a Christian willingly submits in advance to the sovereignty of God. I think James 4:15, "If it is the Lord's will" is the right frame of mind for biblical prayer. A TWI believer NEVER used the word "if" in prayer. And when a new grad mistakenly used the word "if" in prayer, every seasoned PFAL grad would pounce on them with enough reproof and correction to put God in timeout for a year.
[edited...because my believing wasn't there to get it right the first time.]
quote: Where can I find this reference to the 5 different kinds of believing?
It's not 5 different kinds of believing; it's 5 types of faith, including natural believing. In chapter 18 of the PFAL book, faith comes by hearing the word of God, and on page 280 in my copy (2nd printing), the 5 types are listed.
Remember that the words 'faith' and 'believing' are used interchangeably in KJV, but only natural believing, usually translated faith, is available to the natural man. If you meant BIBLICAL reference to the 5 types of faith, do a word study. VP quotes several scriptures in the chapter I referred to.
quote: If this so-called *believing* works for saint and sinner alike, how does a relationship with God or Jesus factor into the equation?
It doesn't. Again, for the third time, natural believing, which works for saint and sinner alike, is the only one of the 5 types of faith that the natural man (sinner) has access to. No relationship with God possible for the natural man until he/she believes Romans 10:9 thus being born again. THEN the faith of Jesus Christ kicks in and BOOM: relationship with GOD!
quote: The way I understand biblical prayer, a Christian willingly submits in advance to the sovereignty of God. I think James 4:15, "If it is the Lord's will" is the right frame of mind for biblical prayer. A TWI believer NEVER used the word "if" in prayer. And when a new grad mistakenly used the word "if" in prayer, every seasoned PFAL grad would pounce on them with enough reproof and correction to put God in timeout for a year.
I "submit" that to willingly submit in advance to the sovereignty of God is to understand that God's not an ATM or a vending machine and you just might not get the prayer answered RIGHT NOW. But there's no "if" about God's ability. There's no "if" about God wanting people to pour out their hearts before Him. The only "if" is with us individually. Do you want what you're praying for or not? If so, PRAY! It's not our job to figure out what God's timetable is or isn't; God says we can pray, so just pray. If you don't get a clear answer, keep praying until you either get a clear answer, or until you know that you don't need to pray for that particular thing anymore, which, in and of itself, IS a clear answer.
quote: The TWI model of prayer takes the relationship out of the picture (remember: saint & sinner alike)
That doesn't make sense: sinners don't pray. Like I said earlier,
Oh, it makes sense, you just don't understand it.
First, who says sinners don't pray? Maybe atheists don't, but that's another issue.
Secondly, that is what Wierwille said about the "Law of Believing", that it "works for saint and sinner alike" - and he definitely was talking about of believing when you pray.
I don't have to prove anything to you.
No, you don't have to prove anything to ham or anyone else, but this is a discussion and you did make a point...
quote: that is what Wierwille said about the "Law of Believing", that it "works for saint and sinner alike" - and he definitely was talking about of believing when you pray.
The law of believing covers both natural believing and the faith of Jesus Christ, but VP said this in the context of "what's available/how to receive it/what to do with it...". Knowing what God's word says opens up more possibilities than you had before, but it's the same law of believing that covers both saint and sinner.
Remember that tape called 'the healing word'? It contains several healing songs, but before the songs VP shares that at some point in time our believing wears down and we die. He admitted that later about his own death. It should go without saying that, while believing does work for saint and sinner alike, it is affected by the sickness and death of the belieVER.
I "submit" that to willingly submit in advance to the sovereignty of God is to understand that God's not an ATM or a vending machine and you just might not get the prayer answered RIGHT NOW. But there's no "if" about God's ability. There's no "if" about God wanting people to pour out their hearts before Him. The only "if" is with us individually. Do you want what you're praying for or not? If so, PRAY! It's not our job to figure out what God's timetable is or isn't; God says we can pray, so just pray. If you don't get a clear answer, keep praying until you either get a clear answer, or until you know that you don't need to pray for that particular thing anymore, which, in and of itself, IS a clear answer.
My post indicated nothing about questioning/doubting God's ability or attention to our heartfelt prayers. Submitting to God's sovereignty acknowledges that Heis in charge – that is the essence of James 4:15 – "If it is the Lord's will for me to have this…if it is the Lord's will for it to happen now…" Do I want what I'm praying for? Of course – or I wouldn't be praying. But I no longer put my faith under the gun by having a rigid prayer results-on-demand way of approaching my Lord.
What is the criteria that determines a clear answer or knowing you don't have to pray for something anymore? How is that not putting more demands on God? To have that kind of thinking as part of my modus operandi is to reduce prayer to nothing more than a self-centered grocery list, ignoring God's sovereignty – and for that matter leaves no room for God to work in my heart…in my opinion, prayer is a two way street…between me and God.
I believe prayer is an open dialogue with God that naturally occurs in our dynamic relationship with Him. Yes, we are in a partnership with God – but sometimes we're not aware of things happening on our side of a prayer. How much we are affected by Him through prayer. I think of Paul repeatedly praying for God to take away his thorn in the flesh. God never did take it away – but He did answer Paul's prayer – He gave him the strength to handle it.
Many years ago I came to a significant turning point in my prayer life. I had a serious run-in with my supervisor – we had a major disagreement over the way operations should be scheduled – and it got nasty in front of co-workers. Afterwards, a well-meaning Christian took me aside and said, "If I were you I'd pray for God's judgment on that guy." In other words, pray for something bad to happen to him…I didn't follow his advice – but his words threw my belief system into a tizzy.
I think for about two weeks I kept wrestling with everything I learned about prayer from TWI and a sick feeling in my gut over this Christian's advice [his thinking akin to TWI's doctrine on prayer]. I could not bring myself to wish ill will toward my supervisor. I was in such a troubled state of mind I could only look through the Bible for verses on prayer - and made a conscious effort to ignore TWI's twist on things. When I stumbled upon the passage about praying for my enemies – I took it to heart. I prayed for his family, his career, his projects…basically asking God to shower him with blessings. Nothing ever changed in our situation – except my attitude towards my supervisor – and that made all the difference in the world – my time at work was enjoyable once again.
quote: The TWI model of prayer takes the relationship out of the picture (remember: saint & sinner alike)
That doesn't make sense: sinners don't pray. Like I said earlier, VP broke down believing into 5 categories, only one of which is available to those not born again, which is natural believing, which works for saint and sinner alike. It is possible at times for a saint to have little faith and for a sinner to have great faith (natural believing).
O M G! Sinners don't pray? Are you serious with that statement? Please tell me you're not serious.
I am a sinner. Sorry but I can't go a day without sinning.
And, I also PRAY all the time. MY BAD.
Perfection is just not in my repitoire like some other folks.
I guess its just useless babble to God .....................
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doojable
No problem ;)
I guess I'm stating the obvious. "No" is an answer just as much as "yes" or "maybe" or " later."In TWI only saw the "Yes" answers as being true answers. Hence, only "yes" answers were "evidence" of believing. In many ways were like spoiled brats. If we didn't get our way - we whined. Not to mention how we were treated by others.
That example of the father not giving a stone for bread...that was completely overlooked when it came to any subject other than holy spirit. I wonder how many times we were asking for stones that just looked like bread. The line in "The Lord's Prayer" that states, "Thy will be done," is something we had a hard time with - it seems. We didn't seem to like to hand over the controls to God. Makes me wonder just how loving we really thought He was...
I tried to teach this while "in" but no one liked it and I just got ignored.
We many times get answers to prayer - we just aren't always happy with the answer. Any parent knows that kids don't always want what's best for them. ( I NEED a car. BUT I WANT a Ferrari! :) Forget about the fact that I can't afford the upkeep, expenses, and the fines I'll incur driving that bad boy.
)
We were taught to look at things spiritually, yet when it came right down to it folks were judged by five-senses criteria.
Those words were mine. I wasn't accusing you of taking that position. Give me some more time to gather my thoughts and I'll try to explain this one a bit better.
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excathedra
you don't have to explain
that might make you god
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doojable
I don't have the proper degree for that job description.
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Oakspear
Thank you dooj and excie.
Frankly I don't think most people understand prayer, nor do they have a clear idea of what they mean when they say "prayer".
You make a good point with your "stones for bread" example.
The whole "thy will be done" mindset seems more in line with what actually happens, notwithstanding verses that imply "believing" for things. Seems like a contradiction to me, but contradictions within the bible are not a problem from my end of the pool
...and dooj, I think what most people mean when they talk about answers to prayer are the yeses. Lots of folks, even on this board, use tangible results from prayer as a "proof", or a witness of the truth of the bible. The "nos" are ignored or glossed over.
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doojable
I know...but I see this as short-sightedness.
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excathedra
ahhhhh i don't know
sounds c razy maybe from someone who prays
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johniam
quote: My problem with that is there seems to be no rhyme or reason to when prayers get results and when they don't.
It's not about the prayer; it's about the relationship. I don't give my kids everything they ask me for, but they still know I love them.
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WordWolf
I agree, and think that's a good approach.
However, it contradicts what twi taught, and teaches.
It also contradicts the literal interpretation of the verses we're discussing.
twi taught "believe it and ask, and you'll get it.
Didn't get it? Didn't ask, or didn't believe. Try to do better next time."
We got that it works for sinner and saint alike, and that we should
use the analogy of a camera to focus our believing better. (That's in the Blue Book.)
That it's about RELATIONSHIP CONFLICTS with what was taught.
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johniam
I'm not so sure. If God already said it's available to pray for stuff then doing that is part of living the relationship. At worst, the camera analogy et al is a placebo to help people who think they are "too sinful" for God to give a crap about them.
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Oakspear
I also agree with you, and like WordWolf, believe that it contradicts what TWI taught, what the verses literally say and what most folks actually believe.
The TWI model of prayer takes the relationship out of the picture (remember: saint & sinner alike)
To address the parent-child analogy: most parents tell their children why they are not receiving something that they asked for, the answer from God appears to be silence.
But to me, the model that posits a loving father who takes care of his children and loving children who simply trust their heavenly father to do the best for them over the long term seems to fit the facts better than "believing = receiving" or other versions of "answered prayer".
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waysider
"The law of believing works for saint and sinner alike."
Yep---Mr. Wierwille said that.
How does that figure into having a "relationship" with God?
In fact, I don't see any evidence of a "relationship" at all in that statement, just a cold calculated approach to deciding what you think God should give you or do in your life. And, hey, you can even leave God out of it entirely if you so choose to take that approach.
It's good to maintain a positive outlook on life because having a negative outlook can have negative effects on your physical well being. That's a proven medical fact. It has nothing to do with whether or not the "law" of believing can generate results.
I'm not trying to negate anyone's belief in God or his ability to honor his promises.
I'm just saying it's kinda cheesy to try to blackmail him using a loophole in the scriptures.
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johniam
quote: The TWI model of prayer takes the relationship out of the picture (remember: saint & sinner alike)
That doesn't make sense: sinners don't pray. Like I said earlier, VP broke down believing into 5 categories, only one of which is available to those not born again, which is natural believing, which works for saint and sinner alike. It is possible at times for a saint to have little faith and for a sinner to have great faith (natural believing).
The faith of Jesus Christ is an extention of natural believing. To pray with believing. a born again one must use their own believing just like they did before they got born again, but since they're now born again, it's not just natural believing, it's the faith of Jesus Christ, which accesses a relationship with God.
Speak for yourself, waysider.
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Kevlar2000
Too bad that Pikes Peak place is no longer operating. :)
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waysider
Where can I find this reference to the 5 different kinds of believing?
Just curious.
Yes, John, that is my point.
If this so-called *believing* works for saint and sinner alike, how does a relationship with God or Jesus factor into the equation?
BTW---That's just me, "speaking for myself".
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T-Bone
The way I understand biblical prayer, a Christian willingly submits in advance to the sovereignty of God. I think James 4:15, "If it is the Lord's will" is the right frame of mind for biblical prayer. A TWI believer NEVER used the word "if" in prayer. And when a new grad mistakenly used the word "if" in prayer, every seasoned PFAL grad would pounce on them with enough reproof and correction to put God in timeout for a year.
[edited...because my believing wasn't there to get it right the first time.]
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johniam
quote: Where can I find this reference to the 5 different kinds of believing?
It's not 5 different kinds of believing; it's 5 types of faith, including natural believing. In chapter 18 of the PFAL book, faith comes by hearing the word of God, and on page 280 in my copy (2nd printing), the 5 types are listed.
Remember that the words 'faith' and 'believing' are used interchangeably in KJV, but only natural believing, usually translated faith, is available to the natural man. If you meant BIBLICAL reference to the 5 types of faith, do a word study. VP quotes several scriptures in the chapter I referred to.
quote: If this so-called *believing* works for saint and sinner alike, how does a relationship with God or Jesus factor into the equation?
It doesn't. Again, for the third time, natural believing, which works for saint and sinner alike, is the only one of the 5 types of faith that the natural man (sinner) has access to. No relationship with God possible for the natural man until he/she believes Romans 10:9 thus being born again. THEN the faith of Jesus Christ kicks in and BOOM: relationship with GOD!
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johniam
quote: The way I understand biblical prayer, a Christian willingly submits in advance to the sovereignty of God. I think James 4:15, "If it is the Lord's will" is the right frame of mind for biblical prayer. A TWI believer NEVER used the word "if" in prayer. And when a new grad mistakenly used the word "if" in prayer, every seasoned PFAL grad would pounce on them with enough reproof and correction to put God in timeout for a year.
I "submit" that to willingly submit in advance to the sovereignty of God is to understand that God's not an ATM or a vending machine and you just might not get the prayer answered RIGHT NOW. But there's no "if" about God's ability. There's no "if" about God wanting people to pour out their hearts before Him. The only "if" is with us individually. Do you want what you're praying for or not? If so, PRAY! It's not our job to figure out what God's timetable is or isn't; God says we can pray, so just pray. If you don't get a clear answer, keep praying until you either get a clear answer, or until you know that you don't need to pray for that particular thing anymore, which, in and of itself, IS a clear answer.
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Ham
The Squirrel dons one of those "funny British wigs"
"Your Honor, I object.."
Who says there are five, why does it have to be as many as five, or even more than five?
If I remember correctly, he also stated "any time you read the word faith, it is ONE OF THESE FIVE.."
If you are citing a proof by exhaustive examination of cases, you MUST cite EVERY CASE- for the proof to be valid.
:)
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johniam
I don't have to prove anything to you.
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Ham
No, but instead of taking the vicster's word for it, one should prove it at the very least for oneself.
at least in my opinion..
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Oakspear
First, who says sinners don't pray? Maybe atheists don't, but that's another issue.
Secondly, that is what Wierwille said about the "Law of Believing", that it "works for saint and sinner alike" - and he definitely was talking about of believing when you pray.
No, you don't have to prove anything to ham or anyone else, but this is a discussion and you did make a point...Link to comment
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johniam
quote: that is what Wierwille said about the "Law of Believing", that it "works for saint and sinner alike" - and he definitely was talking about of believing when you pray.
The law of believing covers both natural believing and the faith of Jesus Christ, but VP said this in the context of "what's available/how to receive it/what to do with it...". Knowing what God's word says opens up more possibilities than you had before, but it's the same law of believing that covers both saint and sinner.
Remember that tape called 'the healing word'? It contains several healing songs, but before the songs VP shares that at some point in time our believing wears down and we die. He admitted that later about his own death. It should go without saying that, while believing does work for saint and sinner alike, it is affected by the sickness and death of the belieVER.
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T-Bone
My post indicated nothing about questioning/doubting God's ability or attention to our heartfelt prayers. Submitting to God's sovereignty acknowledges that He is in charge – that is the essence of James 4:15 – "If it is the Lord's will for me to have this…if it is the Lord's will for it to happen now…" Do I want what I'm praying for? Of course – or I wouldn't be praying. But I no longer put my faith under the gun by having a rigid prayer results-on-demand way of approaching my Lord.
What is the criteria that determines a clear answer or knowing you don't have to pray for something anymore? How is that not putting more demands on God? To have that kind of thinking as part of my modus operandi is to reduce prayer to nothing more than a self-centered grocery list, ignoring God's sovereignty – and for that matter leaves no room for God to work in my heart…in my opinion, prayer is a two way street…between me and God.
I believe prayer is an open dialogue with God that naturally occurs in our dynamic relationship with Him. Yes, we are in a partnership with God – but sometimes we're not aware of things happening on our side of a prayer. How much we are affected by Him through prayer. I think of Paul repeatedly praying for God to take away his thorn in the flesh. God never did take it away – but He did answer Paul's prayer – He gave him the strength to handle it.
Many years ago I came to a significant turning point in my prayer life. I had a serious run-in with my supervisor – we had a major disagreement over the way operations should be scheduled – and it got nasty in front of co-workers. Afterwards, a well-meaning Christian took me aside and said, "If I were you I'd pray for God's judgment on that guy." In other words, pray for something bad to happen to him…I didn't follow his advice – but his words threw my belief system into a tizzy.
I think for about two weeks I kept wrestling with everything I learned about prayer from TWI and a sick feeling in my gut over this Christian's advice [his thinking akin to TWI's doctrine on prayer]. I could not bring myself to wish ill will toward my supervisor. I was in such a troubled state of mind I could only look through the Bible for verses on prayer - and made a conscious effort to ignore TWI's twist on things. When I stumbled upon the passage about praying for my enemies – I took it to heart. I prayed for his family, his career, his projects…basically asking God to shower him with blessings. Nothing ever changed in our situation – except my attitude towards my supervisor – and that made all the difference in the world – my time at work was enjoyable once again.
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bliss
O M G! Sinners don't pray? Are you serious with that statement? Please tell me you're not serious.
I am a sinner. Sorry but I can't go a day without sinning.
And, I also PRAY all the time. MY BAD.
Perfection is just not in my repitoire like some other folks.
I guess its just useless babble to God .....................
NOT!
Thank God he loves sinners like me.
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