False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?

[excathedra]

I don't recall David ever laying " a hand" on Saul, regardless of how screwed up Saul got.

i certainly never laid a hand on him YUCK but i can't say the same for him

[Ham]

I dunno.. if he was a "prophet", is it just possible.. he was a prophet of Baal?

Baal worship involved sex worship of one form or another if I remember correctly..

to the Baal worshipper, "everything is clean", or was, to them.

A person can put a christian label on it.. but yuck is still yuck by whatever name it resides under.

What I find amazing, is people are still taken in by this kind of stuff. Take uncleanness to the nth degree, throw some holy water on it, or a few bible verses.. and the guy comes up smelling like roses..

Even more amazing.. people, who I don't really doubt their sincerity, compare such a person to David, or Solomon, or Paul, or one of the prophets.

I did once.

[FaintWhispers]

Fair enuf. Even telling my story brings a tear to my eyes. But . . . oh well . . . it doesn't matter.

Of course it does -- everyone's story matters!

[WordWolf]

Of course it does -- everyone's story matters!

BINGO.

[doojable]

Here's the rest of my story:

My mom died when I was eight. She got sick with a brain tumor when I was 4.

I was in college. I was talking to my aunt (sister of my Mom) and saying something to the extent of, "If Mom hadn't died things would be different..."

She cut me off right there. She proceeded to tell me that some kids grew up totally orphaned. Other kids grew up with both parents - but were beaten or abused. Still others grew up in wartime...

Her point was that everyone has pain. Everyone has suffering. That in my lifetime I would meet people who had it easier and had it harder than I did growing up.

The she looked at me and said, "From this point on, YOU are in charge of your life. NO more blaming it on your Mom dying."

That woke me up. I know of other folks that have had similiar "confrontations."

I know that you can't stay stuck in your pain. I also see that while some folks need the "tough love" approach, others need people to tell their stories and hopefully guide the hurt out of their pain.

So here at GSC both the Oldiesmen and the Rascals are necessary... IMHO

Edited August 22, 2007 by doojable

[oldiesman]

Hey What the Hey, oldiesman, & anotherdan,

Thank you for your posts. I don't recall David ever laying " a hand" on Saul, regardless of how screwed up Saul got. Apparently, some may not see the comparison but that's OK. I for one have received much fruit in my life because of VPW. ...

Livininit, thanks for sharing that. No matter how hard some posters try to revoke his membership from the body of Christ, facts are facts and he did accomplish much good in his life too. God remembers our good work in the Lord, though people may forget and belittle.

[doojable]

Hey What the Hey, oldiesman, & anotherdan,

Thank you for your posts. I don't recall David ever laying " a hand" on Saul, regardless of how screwed up Saul got. Apparently, some may not see the comparison but that's OK. I for one have received much fruit in my life because of VPW. I know I'm part of the minority here and nothing I will say will change that. That's fine too.

Those here who have good intentions.....well, God's the judge. Besides, good intentions never get the job done. So I suppose this thread will continue until the Lord returns.

Uhhhh...David never laid a hand on Saul - But that doesn't mean that David didn't talk honestly about Saul. He went to Jonathan and complained heavily. Remember that David could have killed Saul while Saul was relieving himself, instead he just cut off a bit of his clothing to show Saul that he "didn't take the shot."

It's not a perfect analogy, because Saul wasn't a teacher. He had prophets for that.

God being the judge doesn't negate the need for me to use the brain He gave me...

Like I said, there's a need for all POV's...

[Ham]

The she looked at me and said, "From this point on, YOU are in charge of your life. NO more blaming it on your Mom dying."

Sometimes a person needs to allow themself a few minutes of selfishness before moving on..

[doojable]

Sometimes a person needs to allow themself a few minutes of selfishness before moving on..

It took me ten years....and then another year after my dad divorced "her."

[Larry N Moore]

Sometimes a person needs to allow themself a few minutes of selfishness before moving on..

I wouldn't call Dooj's journey a selfish one. And if you paid attention a lot of time transpired between her mother's death and waking up. Hardly a few minutes.

P.S. Oops! I guess I take longer than you dooj in composing a response. :)

Edited August 22, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[Ham]

I used the word selfish in the purist of terms..

I have to allow myself a couple of moments, or times every once in a while..

[Larry N Moore]

Larry looks around to see if Dooj is responding.

I used the word selfish in the purist of terms..

You should have said so in the first place. The word isn't typically understood in a "purist" sense.

[doojable]

I wouldn't call Dooj's journey a selfish one. And if you paid attention a lot of time transpired between her mother's death and waking up. Hardly a few minutes.

P.S. Oops! I guess I take longer than you dooj in composing a response. :)

I'm quick - sometimes....

[Ham]

It took me to reach my parents age to more fully realize what I had lost..

[livininit]

Doojable----I hear what you're saying but I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I know that countless times David prayed to be delivered from his enemies and pursuers of whom Saul was the leader. Regardless of this, David never scattered Sauls bones all over the "street". In fact, he did the opposite. It's recorded in II Samuel 21 below. David still loved Saul. This is the point.

I know that everyone has a point of view, and that's what this is for. And it's good to esteem each one's view for what it's worth. I think the view of II Samuel 21 is worth noting!

II Sam.21:10-14:

10 And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.

11 And it was told David what Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, the concubine of Saul, had done.

12 And David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from the men of Jabeshgilead, which had stolen them from the street of Bethshan, where the Philistines had hanged them, when the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa:

13 And he brought up from thence the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son; and they gathered the bones of them that were hanged.

14 And the bones of Saul and Jonathan his son buried they in the country of Benjamin in Zelah, in the sepulchre of Kish his father: and they performed all that the king commanded. And after that God was intreated for the land.

[Ham]

If it makes any difference..

If a person wants to recover the bones of the "holy".. they are going to need a few very good lawyers..

if the "leaders" had any foresight.. they would have been cremated, and have had the ashes spread to the four winds..

[doojable]

livinit,

How David reacted to Saul is presented as his reaction, NOT a standard.

David loved Saul. He recognized that Saul was God's annointed one. He also loved Jonathan. David's response to Saul's death is indicative of his grear respect and affection for a man. I even see how perhaps David might have felt a bit uncomfortable taking on the role of king and maybe secretly hoped that Saul would turn back to God. There's a lot to speculate on - but still no commandment to us today. Just because someone does something in the Bible, it doesn't mean that it then becomes a commandment for us today.

On the other hand Ahab's remains were not treated with respect.

I for one didn't love VPW. There are those that did, and they did as they saw fit with his remains.

BTW - I did try to protect a MOG - holding to the idea that I wouldn't defame one of "God's annointed." The jerk took a whole branch down with his lust. I'm being king here - it was much worst...

[Eyesopen]

Fair enuf. Even telling my story brings a tear to my eyes. But . . . oh well . . . it doesn't matter.

As others have said "Your story is as important as any one elses here"...to that I would add that your heart is as well. You are our brother in Christ, a member of the church of the Body of this I have no doubt. Our lovely sister Dooj has trusted us with her story and she has used it to make a valid point. Please, know that your story and heart are welcome and will be treated with tenderness.

Besides my little sharkey heart is hurt to think that you believe that you or your story doesn't matter.

[Ham]

You may think that the damn squirrel doesn't care..

but I would second that thought..

:)

[T-Bone]

Hey What the Hey, oldiesman, & anotherdan,

Thank you for your posts. I don't recall David ever laying " a hand" on Saul, regardless of how screwed up Saul got. Apparently, some may not see the comparison but that's OK. I for one have received much fruit in my life because of VPW. I know I'm part of the minority here and nothing I will say will change that. That's fine too.

Those here who have good intentions.....well, God's the judge. Besides, good intentions never get the job done. So I suppose this thread will continue until the Lord returns.

I fail to see a comparison.

Saul – was a man chosen by God to institute the monarchy. A religious ceremony at Gilgal confirmed God's appointment of Saul as king, divine approval shown in the defeat of the Ammonites . Along with a parting exhortation to the people to obey God, Samuel called on the Lord to send thunder and rain as another confirming sign . The "screw up" of Saul was pointed out on three occasions by Samuel – Saul disobeyed the terms of his appointment – terms involving utter obedience to every command of God. His downfall was tragic because he was a visible representative of God's rulership over Israel…David recognized that the Lord Himself had made Saul king – and so left the judgment and removal of Saul in the Lord's hands:

I Samuel 24:5-7 NIV

5 Afterward, David was conscience-stricken for having cut off a corner of his robe. 6 He said to his men, "The LORD forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the LORD's anointed, or lift my hand against him; for he is the anointed of the LORD." 7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way.

~~

vpw – was a self-appointed "man of god for this day and time and hour." His ministry was "confirmed" by his yarn about the voice of god and snow on the gas pumps. You might want to read Word Wolf's thread The Way: Living in Wonderland – it's amazing the amount of contradictory details that can be found in a book authorized by vpw! The title of "doctor", by which he adamantly demanded to be addressed – was from a degree granting mill ! He plagiarized other men's work, palmed it off as stuff that God taught him - the Word like it hasn't been know for centuries – called it PFAL. His downfall was tragic - letting sin become the master of his life – he assumed the place of the "absent Christ," ruling over people as his sins ruled over him.

If you're looking for comparisons – may I suggest looking at passages that deal with false prophets and false teachers – noting the criteria for spotting them and what your response should be.

Edited August 23, 2007 by T-Bone

[livininit]

Doojable-----I hear what you're saying but I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I know that countless times David prayed to be delivered from his enemies and pursuers of whom Saul was the leader. Regardless of this, David never scattered Sauls bones all over the "street". In fact, he did the opposite. It's recorded in II Samuel 21 below. David still loved Saul. This is the point.

I know that everyone has a point of view, and that's what this is for. And it's good to esteem each one's view for what it's worth. I think the view of II Samuel 21 is worth noting!

II Sam.21:10-14:

10 And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.

11 And it was told David what Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, the concubine of Saul, had done.

12 And David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from the men of Jabeshgilead, which had stolen them from the street of Bethshan, where the Philistines had hanged them, when the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa:

13 And he brought up from thence the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son; and they gathered the bones of them that were hanged.

14 And the bones of Saul and Jonathan his son buried they in the country of Benjamin in Zelah, in the sepulchre of Kish his father: and they performed all that the king commanded. And after that God was intreated for the land.

[Ham]

Why can't his epitaph read:

Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah; They shall not lament for him, saying, Ah my brother! or, Ah sister! they shall not lament for him, saying, Ah lord! or, Ah his glory!

19 He shall be buried with the burial of an a**, drawn and cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[doojable]

Livinit - I read your post the first time and responded. Re-posting it an hundred times won't make the comparison more correct.

His concubine and David mourned him. David honored his memory of Saul and Jonathan.

VP's bones weren't scattered.

[Ham]

I don't say this with joy or anything.. but maybe they should have been.. kinda permanently..

[livininit]

I don't say it with joy either.......but I think what you said has been accomplished.