Is is Possible ?

[Nottawayfer]

But had you not gotten pregnant in the first place, the twi machine wouldn't have had to get involved to try to convince you that keeping your vow was paramount according to scripture.

I see them as trying to do everything possible to help convince you to keep your commitment.

From their perspective, they were "doing the word" ...

(Numbers 30:2)

Oldies,

Every time I read your posts, it proves time and time and time and time again what an ignorant arse you are. Sheesh! Why don't you go find some other idiots who want to sing Vic's praises with you?

A spade is a spade whether you see it or not.

Nero,

That's a good question, but first let me share a little short story.

I was sitting in my apartment a number of years ago, and all at once it started to rain hard. I looked up and noticed that one of the windows was leaking water and getting the books wet that were on the ledge next to the window. I immediately called the landlord, and complained about the leak. He came over, and when he walked in, he looked at me like I was an idiot and said "why don't you move those books out of the way"?

Now for an example, there's "Marsha". The following is a summary (if these facts are wrong, someone will chime in to correct):

"Marsha" was invited to Wierwille's motor coach. She was given a drink, and fell asleep. She wakes up on the bed, and Wierwille says "I could have screwed you, but I didn't". She leaves the coach, and is furious. Next day, SHE CHOOSES TO GO BACK TO WIERWILLE'S COACH!! At that point, Wierwille had sex with her.

And so according to these facts, I believe "Marsha" is partly responsible for getting abused. She went back to Wierwille AFTER she was drugged. How could anyone call this encounter "rape"?

There is an old Chinese proverb: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

Marsha gets fooled, yet goes back later and has sex with Wierwille.

Nero, if you don't understand this point, I will give you another.

How come you don't identify the wrongs done by Vic in this story? Is he exempt from evil in this scenario? Again, another dumb arse comment by OM!!

[oldiesman]

No.....I am basing my statements on 19 Years of Corps Meetings....where wierwille (and later, lcm) gave his "requirements" for ONCE CORPS ALWAYS CORPS......no exceptions.

Ok Skyrider, but in practice, if someone left the Corps, twi allowed those folks to return to the corps if they wanted, or go to twig if they wanted.

This is a fact, whether or not they desired folks to come back in.

You were called to the corps, right?

Called by God? Actually to this day, I'm not so sure.

[What The Hey]

Oldies,

Every time I read your posts, it proves time and time and time and time again what an ignorant arse you are. Sheesh! Why don't you go find some other idiots who want to sing Vic's praises with you?

A spade is a spade whether you see it or not.

How come you don't identify the wrongs done by Vic in this story? Is he exempt from evil in this scenario? Again, another dumb arse comment by OM!!

Reality, one may note, has a certain robustness. It can be picked up and scrutinised and played with. It can be tossed about in the interplay of open debate without fear that such rough and tumble will cause it to shatter. However some people's reality tends to shatter apart when they're caught up in the "rough and tumble" of an open debate.

Edited October 18, 2007 by What The Hey

[washingtonweather]

well, I have concluded all these wAYish vows were man made and not constructs of God and I don't read Numbers that way at all.

[rascal]

I don`t remember MAKING a vow...that is just it. I remember that I entered the program to become my best for God...I just don`t remember taking or giving any vows or promises.

It was a stunning suprise that it was unbreakable and irrevocable.

[oldiesman]

How come you don't identify the wrongs done by Vic in this story? Is he exempt from evil in this scenario?

I never suggested he was.

But what do you think about Marsha going back a second time to his motorcoach? Is she exempt from criticism?

I think, by her going back a second time after she left the first time, she was facilitating and participating in any "abuse" that may have occurred thereafter.

BTW please refrain from namecalling. Let's keep the debate on a higher level.

[Dot Matrix]

Ya know?

Same sheet

Different day

[What The Hey]

I don`t remember MAKING a vow...that is just it. I remember that I entered the program to become my best for God...I just don`t remember taking or giving any vows or promises.

It was a stunning suprise that it was unbreakable and irrevocable.

You mean, like a marriage vow? (I really can't speak for myself to that vow or commitment as I never went Way Corps.) :unsure:

Of course there are people who also see divorce as someone breaking their commitment to God. Marriage just didn't turn out to be the heaven they initally thought it would be for them.

[rascal]

Well I DEFINATLY remember making my marriage vows...matter of fact...I still abide by them today nearly 21 years later. I also remember making both of my wow commitments and honoring THOSE promises.

I just don`t remember making any vows when I filled out the corpes application.

I certainly did not understand to not complete the program was to lie and die like annanias and saphira...shrug.

Oldies, how come you got kicked out? Are you mad because the women had a chance to *fix* their little problems, and you weren`t given an option?

Edited October 18, 2007 by rascal

[skyrider]

Ok Skyrider, but in practice, if someone left the Corps, twi allowed those folks to return to the corps if they wanted, or go to twig if they wanted.

This is a fact, whether or not they desired folks to come back in.

Oldies......I'm not talking about what twi *allowed*.........I'm talking about WIERWILLE'S DOCTRINE OF THE CORPS PROGRAM.

If you believed God called you to go corps.....and then, signed a corps application wherein you wanted to learn and lead in A LIFETIME OF CHRISTIAN SERVICE......then according to vp "God called you to the way corps."

Wierwille didn't mince words about the corps commitment.....wierwille didn't talk in gray areas of "maybe this, maybe not"........wierwille believed that corps needed to rise up in commitment and live it.

NOTE: Wierwille labeled the first group of dismissals.......Zero Corps.

Yes, he still kept *the corps label* on them.......very telling, wouldn't you say? And, I think his mentality really goes to the heart of the issue here.

You see, oldies........you still *revere* wierwille and his policies. Yet, you cherry-pick the things you agree with and the things you do not. You like most of wierwille's packaged-sell of pfal, yet you haven't pieced together his manipulation and coersion of the indentured servitude to the mog, the corps program.

Oldies.....you can't have it both ways.....double-standards, ya know.

The Dr. Jekyll of PFAL is the same Mr. Hyde of the corps program. So, if you accept pfal as a standard of truth.....why don't you accept the corps program as wierwille's standard?

Called by God? Actually to this day, I'm not so sure.

Well, that's between you and the Father.

Have a good day, Oldies. I'm done with this subject (for now).

[Dot Matrix]

For now, I do not feel like fighting with him. Maybe later

Edited October 18, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[Goey]

Why do these "experiences" always have to be accompanied by a bodyguard of protective measures wherever they travel? Claims are heard " the victims" will be upset and feel emotionally afflicted by the mere possibility their testimonies may be put under the proverbial microscope and processed through the laboratory of critical analysis. The truth is: Nobody can be insulted or demeaned by a challenge to the authenticity of a valid contention. The very nature of the world of fact is that it emerges "smelling of roses" and with credibility in yet greater glory thanks to the inquisitorial process undergone. But that's simply not possible here - and definately not with "these experiences."

The accusations of moral culpability undermine Christianity's claim to be a creed of compassion. Instead of confronting the accusations with objective analysis, Christians prefer to wallow in a vague but real sense of guilt. One strongly suspects that the mindset that one is dealing with here is one lacking the spark of real critical intellect. Could it be those with a habit of asking probing questions have all jumped ship? Could it be then all that are left - are mediocrities and "yes men" ready to be taken in?

Yet this ever so convenient line of reasoning can always be marshalled for any case where we believe that we are right and the opposition wrong, which one imagines would cover quite a few instances. Next time you have a difference of opinion with your spouse or partner why not try this line of reasoning?

"You are wrong. You know you are wrong and are dishonestly asserting your position for an ulterior motive. Thus I am not obliged to engage in any further discussion!"

The results should be interesting.

Note: The above was plaigerized word for word by WTH from an essay called "The Holocoust Hex" by Joseph Heany - an admitted Holocaust revisionist. Like father - like son.

Read it here

Edited October 18, 2007 by Goey

[waysider]

I'm going to try to stick to the facts here.

Situation #1.

My friend was a diagnosed schizophrenic who was under out-patient supervision and followed a clinically prescribed regimen of medication.

One of the "believers" in our area, who was an AC grad, told him he was "born of the wrong seed".

This person learned about "the wrong seed" in the AC.

He(my friend) left me a note saying he could not bear to live with the knowledge that this person imparted.

I found the note next to his body.

He was dead.

Situation #2.

Les G. contracted a very serious but treatable infection.

This type of infection is, indeed, sometimes fatal.

Time is of the essence in terms of treatment options.

Because of the Way's beliefs in the "law" of believing, he did not have an opportunity to seek immediate medical attention.

For years, I was told, "he freaked out and couldn't believe."

He died.

Situation #3.

In Fellowlaborers(not the Corps), one of our married FL sisters became pregnant.

She was having a difficult pregnancy and was advised by a doctor to limit her physical activities.

The coordinators of the program told her she would have to run every morning at 5:30 AM, just like everyone else, in order to fulfill the commitment that she and her husband had made.

She was told to "believe" for the situation to work out.

She lost the child.

I was also told, though I can not verify, that permanent damage resulted and she would not be able to conceive again.

Except for the very last part, these are facts.

They are not in the category of "Is It Possible?"

They are in the category of "It Happened."

[Lifted Up]

Lifted Up, I get what you're saying! If the anti-Wierwille/twi posters would render the same judgment and condemnation they do to others and other groups, as they do with Wierwille and twi, they'd be way too busy all day long finding fault with half the world! They'd likely go crazy. But their contempt against twi is justified since they are exposing the evil there. One has only so much hours in the day. :) Thanks for your input.

Yes, Oldies, this is a big sticking point with me, and I mean BIG. It's just a little bit like being a baseball umpire (which I am). Coaches and managers usually dont gripe too much about my strike zone being too big for them or too little, as long as it is consistent. But if I have a big strike zone for one team and a little one for the other, then the coach is going to get all over my case...as he should. If the unborn is a life and an "innocent " or "murder" victim of TWI because TWI coerced an abortion, but suddenly becomes "just a fetus" when we are dealing with the abortion subject in the "non TWI" world, then, to me, the case is lost for any wrong that has been done. I (as many others) may sharply disagree on the subject of abortion, but if their stated views remain consistent, I can maintain a high degree of respect for the person. Just as (I think) my immediate supervisor at work does, despite the time I called his son out on a pitch he thought was too high, because he knows I have a consistently big strike zone for the kids. (some of the pitchers at that age have a hard time finding the zone, and I dont feel like walking 10 batters an inning, so if it is within reach, they'd better swing.)

And a word to the wise, ( read between the lines) by a BIG sticking point, I mean that you might want to hope it doesnt become unstuck.

[doojable]

Lifted - I'm not sure I understand? Let me put this in my words and you tell me if I get your point.

I see abortion as the ending of a life. We actually had this discussion in the summer in another forum.

So, as long as I am consistent and I don't just save my indignation for TWI and VP then my strike zone is consistent, I meet your "sticking point." Right?

Edited October 18, 2007 by doojable

[doojable]

Women who want to have children have them.

And women who are afraid of "Godly consequences" don't...

Besides, some of these women weren't even in the corps yet. They were apprentice corps. When I went in rez I don't remember the apprentice year as being part of the commitment. I heard LCM change that during my first year in.

He said that too many were signing up and then not following through.

On another note...suppose some of these women were "exhorted" to have an abortion under the auspices of their commitment while it was because the daddy didn't want an illegitimate child running around.

I know I can't verify - but it is food for thought.

[Ham]

well.. my point orginally was..

if herr mogster embraced a position in PRACTICE that is considered "unclean" to the nth degree to MOST of the rest of the Christian world.. isn't that kinda like wearing a cloak that's the embodiment of at the very least- an appearance of evil?

If it was merely a matter of ideology. that's one thing.. but when it is mandated.. as some kind of "fixit" to cover the real goings on in a "ministry".. to "help" somebody to "not end up like Ananias and Sapphira".. and he pays for it.. grudgingly, but he pays for it nontheless..

it all seems pretty twisted and conflicted.. at least to me.

I don't think he REALLY gave a single damn about the ladies he "counselled"..

it was all about HIM.. his "greatness".. his "ministry".. it was his god..

"I have no friends when it comes to the (my) word.."

[Nottawayfer]

Oldies,

You still have Way Blinders on. Until you take them off, you won't understand other points of view.

[Lifted Up]

Lifted - I'm not sure I understand? Let me put this in my words and you tell me if I get your point.

I see abortion as the ending of a life. We actually had this discussion in the summer in another forum.

So, as long as I am consistent and I don't just save my indignation for TWI and VP then my strike zone is consistent. I meet your "sticking point." Right?

I guess. As long as I dont hear something like, "I see abortion as the ending of a life; that makes the coerced abortions in TWI even worse", then whe outside of TWI it becomes "I see abortion as the ending of a life, but I dont want to make that judgement for someone else".

Now, don't forget to "read my lips"...on my original post from yesterday (already 3 or 4 pages back I guess) Oh gee, I'll paste it in here...

"It is one thing to knock TWI for forcing abortions. If that is what TWI did, then there is a case, IMO, for saying they did a great wrong, whether or not one believes that baby/fetus is a life before birth. I guess I am saying/agreeing here that the "life begins with the first breath" doctrine, even if true, does not justify coercing someone into having an abortion."

I think this is a big issue, as well as one reason i called the consistency issue a big sticking point.

It's only my opinion, but having lived here for over 27 years, I think consistency on this same abortion issue...not so much his stated position on the issue...was a factor in our former Senate Majority Leader being defeated for re-election a few years ago.

Hit a button extraneously when sending...edited only to get rid of the double post.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Lifted Up

[doojable]

"It is one thing to knock TWI for forcing abortions. If that is what TWI did, then there is a case, IMO, for saying they did a great wrong, whether or not one believes that baby/fetus is a life before birth. I guess I am saying/agreeing here that the "life begins with the first breath" doctrine, even if true, does not justify coercing someone into having an abortion."

I think this is a big issue, as well as one reason i called the consistency issue a big sticking point.

I think that ANY abortion that is forced or coerced is wrong.

Regardless of the issue, coercion is wrong - is it not?

coerce (From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary)

co·erce

Pronunciation:

\kō-ˈərs\

Function:

transitive verb

Inflected Form(s):

co·erced; co·erc·ing

Etymology:

Middle English cohercen, from Anglo-French *cohercer Latin coercēre, from co- + arcēre to shut up, enclose — more at ark

Date:

15th century

1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>

2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing

3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>

synonyms see force

— co·erc·ible \-ˈər-sə-bəl\ adjective

[excathedra]

this is a loooooooooonnnnnnnnggggggggggggg thread

i've tried to get through it and started to copy and paste stuff

having been a victim of incest, no boundaries, many other factors, maybe that's why i didn't leave when he first exposed himself

there are so many other things i could share under a microscope but i don't have the energy

trust me, my life's goal is not to hurt wierwille

[waysider]

this is a loooooooooonnnnnnnnggggggggggggg thread

i've tried to get through it and started to copy and paste stuff

having been a victim of incest, no boundaries, many other factors, maybe that's why i didn't leave when he first exposed himself

there are so many other things i could share under a microscope but i don't have the energy

trust me, my life's goal is not to hurt wierwille

This brings up an interesting point.

When I was running CF&S classes in the mid '70s, there was a questionnaire that was passed out at the last session.

I don't know how often it was used with classes because when I brought this up before, not many seemed to remember it.

It was voluntary and anonymous (if one so desired.)

It was hand written, so logic will tell you that comparisons could possibly be made with Corps papers.

There were several very "off-beat" questions in the mix.

We were to collect the papers and immediately put them into an envelope which we then sealed.

They were then to be sent back to HQ with the other materials.

Being a good Wayfer, I did just that so I have no idea how people responded.

Is it possible those surveys, even though "anonymous", may have been gleaned by dates, cities, handwriting, etc.?

If those surveys, that I unwittingly sent to HQ, had anything to do with some of the things I have seen posted, there are no words that can express my remorse.

I don't know if anything transpired because of them but I would just like to say I am very, very sorry if I somehow was played as a pawn in the game. My sincere apologies.

[Lifted Up]

I think that ANY abortion that is forced or coerced is wrong.

Regardless of the issue, coercion is wrong - is it not?

No argument with you there, because that's what I said in my self quoted post. That was really the basis of my "word to the wise" remark to Oldies.

[excathedra]

awwww i wouldn't worry

it's just weird when people don't believe you

like why in the world would i ever tell "my (stupid) story"

and trust me, i know my own failings

but a MAN OF GOD ?

forget it

[rascal]

I don`t know excathedra, I can only thank God that you did, or I might never have been free.

You have made a huge difference for my family and myself. Thank you hardly seems adequate.