This quote from "Passing of the Patriarch" is very interesting in light of the discussion at hand:
"He wanted to die rather than compromise..."
"He did what he had talked about doing..."
CG was fully convinced that "he believed to stop the functions of his body."
So..... was vp in a suicidal state of mind?
If he was, then it would appear that cg was proud of this and the debbil spurt possession that this implies. (Not to mention the argument over "cancer is a ds.")
I'm pointing out how wayspeak kept changing and redefining and separating the "believers" from the MOGs.
Kinda sick IMO.
VERY interesting point!
Of course, lcm and the others claimed they "HELPED KILL" vpw, who, supposedly, chose to die.
(WE HAVE THAT IN WRITING.)
But vpw is supposedly not even PARTIALLY to blame when he drives someone else to suicide.
And, naturally, all our points keep getting CHANGED to "the victim had zero responsibility"
when we're saying "of course that's not true!"
This is NOT about "truth"-this is about ABSOLVING VPW OF RESPONSIBILITY no matter HOW
Of course, lcm and the others claimed they "HELPED KILL" vpw, who, supposedly, chose to die.
(WE HAVE THAT IN WRITING.)
But vpw is supposedly not even PARTIALLY to blame when he drives someone else to suicide.
And, naturally, all our points keep getting CHANGED to "the victim had zero responsibility"
when we're saying "of course that's not true!"
This is NOT about "truth"-this is about ABSOLVING VPW OF RESPONSIBILITY no matter HOW
ludicrous the posts have to get to do that.
That written statement by Howard Allen was bull.... I don't believe they helped kill VP or had any culpability in it. It just goes to show how screwed up their heads were at the time to believe that nonsense. Remember, they were in a fog.
So far I haven't heard any evidence in favor of VPW "driving someone to SUICIDE". Remember, the key word is SUICIDE; not adultery, not alcoholism, not meanness, not selfishness. By saying VP & Co. were culpable of someone else's suicide, they are being accused of murder by another name. This accusation is horrible. Like he and Howard & Co. had that much power and control over people's minds they can command a suicide? Give me a break .... Sorry, still don't believe it, because nobody can guarantee the actions of another.
By saying VP & Co. were culpable of someone else's suicide, they are being accused of murder by another name. This accusation is horrible. Like he and Howard & Co. had that much power and control over people's minds they can command a suicide? Give me a break .... Sorry, still don't believe it, because nobody can guarantee the actions of another.
That written statement by Howard Allen was bull.... I don't believe they helped kill VP or had any culpability in it. It just goes to show how screwed up their heads were at the time to believe that nonsense. Remember, they were in a fog.
So far I haven't heard any evidence in favor of VPW "driving someone to SUICIDE". Remember, the key word is SUICIDE; not adultery, not alcoholism, not meanness, not selfishness. By saying VP & Co. were culpable of someone else's suicide, they are being accused of murder by another name. This accusation is horrible. Like he and Howard & Co. had that much power and control over people's minds they can command a suicide? Give me a break .... Sorry, still don't believe it, because nobody can guarantee the actions of another.
OMG, where's the puking icon??? You are unbelievable Oldies. You make up excuses for people who have done evil, and you blame victims. What kind of sickness is that?
So far I haven't heard any evidence in favor of VPW "driving someone to SUICIDE". Remember, the key word is SUICIDE; not adultery, not alcoholism, not meanness, not selfishness. By saying VP & Co. were culpable of someone else's suicide, they are being accused of murder by another name. This accusation is horrible. Like he and Howard & Co. had that much power and control over people's minds they can command a suicide? Give me a break .... Sorry, still don't believe it, because nobody can guarantee the actions of another.
So on the other hand, you are saying that VP DID drive people to adultery, alcoholism, meanness and selfishness?
So on the other hand, you are saying that VP DID drive people to adultery, alcoholism, meanness and selfishness?
No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that I believe VP is responsible for his own acts, i.e., adultery, alcoholism, meanness, selfishness, etc. I do not believe he is responsible for someone else's acts, such as suicide and the like. If we're talking adultery and he was a part of that, then I believe he's responsible for his part in it. I believe each participant is responsibile for one's own actions, whatever that was. I believe there are exceptions; being drugged for example.
Although, if vpw was correct (and he wasn't, IMO) that suicide was always a devil spirit, and given that devil spirits even exist (which I don't know), vpw might have had a "bigger" devil spirit and could have in fact "commanded" the suicide. ahhhh a whole new scenario.
If you willfully manipulate the thoughts and actions of someone who is mentally ill, you must also share responsibility for the results.
Let me give you a "fer instance", Oldies.
Suppose you, as an Advanced Class grad, tell someone that you know to be psychiatric patient with suicidal tendencies about being "born of the wrong seed" and explain the permanence of it. Now suppose you tell that same person that you think their problems are the result of their being of "the wrong seed". Do you then share any responsibility for their subsequent suicide?
Or is it all their own fault because they were, after all, mentally ill?
Unless the person had "intent" to cause harm to the other, I don't see how one could be culpable. Maybe a legal case can be made, but morally, God looks on the heart and sees all the thoughts and intents and if there was no intent to cause any harm, especially the death of someone, it doesn't make much sense.
I'm sure the guy who carelessly runs a red light in front of your motorcycle will take comfort in knowing it's not really his fault 'cause he didn't mean to kill anybody.
Thanks for the feedback of post #24 which directly relates to the topic of this thread. I think that the mistakes of TOP LEADERSHIP; as it relates to OT kings; relates directly to the biggest single problem that existed in TWI and was a doctrinal "hingepin" if you will that opened the door to much of the "stealing, killing and destroying that shamefully occured in TWI: and especially shamefull that these devilish things were done falsely; in the Lord's own name.
I think that you are correct Brideofjc about the KJV whitewashing the "color" of the Hebrew intent. but it is still extremely relavent in terms of understanding how unstable men will use the scriptures in a fashion that led to so much destruction and I believe at the "very least" will earn them "many stripes", as IT IS WRITTEN in God's Word.
I don't think hare krishna ever promised many stripes to anyone who would dare beat their fellowservants, but JC has. Some of you may point out the dispensational point to me; I say JESUS CHRIST is not a liar, or is he ever going to repent of what he's said.
Frankly Wordwolf the thing that Dr. said in that chapter that really makes me mad is that "David would have said 'woman, get out.'" to Bathsheba if she would have reminded him of the rape. That Dr. Wierwille actually said that makes me fuming mad. After hearing many of you share about so many people getting hurt: that DR.WIERWILLE actually dared say that speaks to the kind of unhinged arrogance and pride that makes me think about hitting something too.
DEAR OLDIESMAN,
I offered you my best advice in post # 29. It concerned you learning to show compassion. It seems that taking my advice is beyond your capability for some reason. I feel both anger towards you and sorrow for you. It's the same kind of sorrow that I feel for a fool who's wise in his own conceipt.
I wish you'd get it, I hope that you get it, I wait for you to get it........ No you don't get it.
It's the same old stuff that Job's comforters had. Knowledge outside of the scope of God's heart. God would have held Job's friends accountable if Job hadn't prayed for them too.
I fear for what will become of you Oldies. But let me be clear that I don't mean to imply that I will in any way act to hurt you in spite of how your words grate on everything in me.
Your judge has compassion on the wounded and the floundering amoung his flock; and you, most unfortunately, do not.
OMG, where's the puking icon??? You are unbelievable Oldies. You make up excuses for people who have done evil, and you blame victims. What kind of sickness is that?
Unless the person had "intent" to cause harm to the other, I don't see how one could be culpable. Maybe a legal case can be made, but morally, God looks on the heart and sees all the thoughts and intents and if there was no intent to cause any harm, especially the death of someone, it doesn't make much sense.
So what about the "intent" to do the right thing?
What about the "intent" to build a person rather than tear them down?
Geez! This was supposed to be a CHRISTIAN ministry?
I'm sure the guy who carelessly runs a red light in front of your motorcycle will take comfort in knowing it's not really his fault 'cause he didn't mean to kill anybody.
From what I know of traffic law, the penalty could be as high as manslaughter or as low as a traffic ticket for running a red light, all depending on the drivers "state of mind". So yeah, its possible the guy could kill someone, and just get off with a traffic ticket! Riding a motorcycle can be a dangerous business and I'm fully aware of the risks involved.
The people who Weird-Wolf injured and damaged very likely didn't think they would be facing any "risks" by entrusting their well being to a man that turned out to be a callous, drunken, sexually deviant, delusional huckster. Shame on them. It's all their fault.
I offered you my best advice in post # 29. It concerned you learning to show compassion. It seems that taking my advice is beyond your capability for some reason. I feel both anger towards you and sorrow for you. It's the same kind of sorrow that I feel for a fool who's wise in his own conceipt.
I wish you'd get it, I hope that you get it, I wait for you to get it........ No you don't get it.
It's the same old stuff that Job's comforters had. Knowledge outside of the scope of God's heart. God would have held Job's friends accountable if Job hadn't prayed for them too.
I fear for what will become of you Oldies. But let me be clear that I don't mean to imply that I will in any way act to hurt you in spite of how your words grate on everything in me.
Your judge has compassion on the wounded and the floundering amoung his flock; and you, most unfortunately, do not.
(edited for grammar)
Jeff,
I get the recurring feeling that when you talk about me having compassion, you really want me to be quiet. But the forums are here for debate and discussion, something you don't seem to get. This isn't a therapy session for wound addiction. As they say "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
I invited you to PM me to discuss any issues you like with me in private, but you declined. That's your prerogative. But I think its time now for you to take a different approach. Voicing your personal feelings toward me on a public forum isn't what the forums are for. I hope you get that.
But as far as the assessment of blame or punishment for the driver, it still falls on the state of mind of the driver, not the state of mind of the motorcyclist.
Sexual abusers never give thought to the affect their actions will have on their victims because they are selfish, cold-hearted bastages who deserve to rot in hell.
if people feel so angry that they give voice to physical violence, then they need to take a step back (imo)
that level of anger being directed at a poster on a message board is MISPLACED and MISDIRECTED (again, imo)
sure we all get annoyed with various posters from time to time, but this kind of intense anger is over the top... i really don't get it... this is just a message board, peeeple...
if people feel so angry that they give voice to physical violence, then they need to take a step back (imo)
that level of anger being directed at a poster on a message board is MISPLACED and MISDIRECTED (again, imo)
sure we all get annoyed with various posters from time to time, but this kind of intense anger is over the top... i really don't get it... this is just a message board, peeeple...
Usually, when tempers flare on messageboards, I recommend people log off and take a brisk walk around the block.
I've found it helps me quite a bit, and doctors recommend the mild exercise for a number of reasons.
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WordWolf
VERY interesting point!
Of course, lcm and the others claimed they "HELPED KILL" vpw, who, supposedly, chose to die.
(WE HAVE THAT IN WRITING.)
But vpw is supposedly not even PARTIALLY to blame when he drives someone else to suicide.
And, naturally, all our points keep getting CHANGED to "the victim had zero responsibility"
when we're saying "of course that's not true!"
This is NOT about "truth"-this is about ABSOLVING VPW OF RESPONSIBILITY no matter HOW
ludicrous the posts have to get to do that.
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Dot Matrix
Great point Dooj
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oldiesman
That written statement by Howard Allen was bull.... I don't believe they helped kill VP or had any culpability in it. It just goes to show how screwed up their heads were at the time to believe that nonsense. Remember, they were in a fog.
So far I haven't heard any evidence in favor of VPW "driving someone to SUICIDE". Remember, the key word is SUICIDE; not adultery, not alcoholism, not meanness, not selfishness. By saying VP & Co. were culpable of someone else's suicide, they are being accused of murder by another name. This accusation is horrible. Like he and Howard & Co. had that much power and control over people's minds they can command a suicide? Give me a break .... Sorry, still don't believe it, because nobody can guarantee the actions of another.
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waysider
I don't recall anyone saying they "commanded" it.
Your hero was a charlatan.
(and a cold hearted one at that.)
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Nottawayfer
OMG, where's the puking icon??? You are unbelievable Oldies. You make up excuses for people who have done evil, and you blame victims. What kind of sickness is that?
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pawtucket
So on the other hand, you are saying that VP DID drive people to adultery, alcoholism, meanness and selfishness?
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oldiesman
No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that I believe VP is responsible for his own acts, i.e., adultery, alcoholism, meanness, selfishness, etc. I do not believe he is responsible for someone else's acts, such as suicide and the like. If we're talking adultery and he was a part of that, then I believe he's responsible for his part in it. I believe each participant is responsibile for one's own actions, whatever that was. I believe there are exceptions; being drugged for example.
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HAPe4me
Although, if vpw was correct (and he wasn't, IMO) that suicide was always a devil spirit, and given that devil spirits even exist (which I don't know), vpw might have had a "bigger" devil spirit and could have in fact "commanded" the suicide. ahhhh a whole new scenario.
~HAP?
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waysider
If you willfully manipulate the thoughts and actions of someone who is mentally ill, you must also share responsibility for the results.
Let me give you a "fer instance", Oldies.
Suppose you, as an Advanced Class grad, tell someone that you know to be psychiatric patient with suicidal tendencies about being "born of the wrong seed" and explain the permanence of it. Now suppose you tell that same person that you think their problems are the result of their being of "the wrong seed". Do you then share any responsibility for their subsequent suicide?
Or is it all their own fault because they were, after all, mentally ill?
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oldiesman
Unless the person had "intent" to cause harm to the other, I don't see how one could be culpable. Maybe a legal case can be made, but morally, God looks on the heart and sees all the thoughts and intents and if there was no intent to cause any harm, especially the death of someone, it doesn't make much sense.
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waysider
I'm sure the guy who carelessly runs a red light in front of your motorcycle will take comfort in knowing it's not really his fault 'cause he didn't mean to kill anybody.
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JeffSjo
Dear Brideofjc and Wordwolf,
Thanks for the feedback of post #24 which directly relates to the topic of this thread. I think that the mistakes of TOP LEADERSHIP; as it relates to OT kings; relates directly to the biggest single problem that existed in TWI and was a doctrinal "hingepin" if you will that opened the door to much of the "stealing, killing and destroying that shamefully occured in TWI: and especially shamefull that these devilish things were done falsely; in the Lord's own name.
I think that you are correct Brideofjc about the KJV whitewashing the "color" of the Hebrew intent. but it is still extremely relavent in terms of understanding how unstable men will use the scriptures in a fashion that led to so much destruction and I believe at the "very least" will earn them "many stripes", as IT IS WRITTEN in God's Word.
I don't think hare krishna ever promised many stripes to anyone who would dare beat their fellowservants, but JC has. Some of you may point out the dispensational point to me; I say JESUS CHRIST is not a liar, or is he ever going to repent of what he's said.
Frankly Wordwolf the thing that Dr. said in that chapter that really makes me mad is that "David would have said 'woman, get out.'" to Bathsheba if she would have reminded him of the rape. That Dr. Wierwille actually said that makes me fuming mad. After hearing many of you share about so many people getting hurt: that DR.WIERWILLE actually dared say that speaks to the kind of unhinged arrogance and pride that makes me think about hitting something too.
DEAR OLDIESMAN,
I offered you my best advice in post # 29. It concerned you learning to show compassion. It seems that taking my advice is beyond your capability for some reason. I feel both anger towards you and sorrow for you. It's the same kind of sorrow that I feel for a fool who's wise in his own conceipt.
I wish you'd get it, I hope that you get it, I wait for you to get it........ No you don't get it.
It's the same old stuff that Job's comforters had. Knowledge outside of the scope of God's heart. God would have held Job's friends accountable if Job hadn't prayed for them too.
I fear for what will become of you Oldies. But let me be clear that I don't mean to imply that I will in any way act to hurt you in spite of how your words grate on everything in me.
Your judge has compassion on the wounded and the floundering amoung his flock; and you, most unfortunately, do not.
(edited for grammar)
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doojable
So what about the "intent" to do the right thing?
What about the "intent" to build a person rather than tear them down?
Geez! This was supposed to be a CHRISTIAN ministry?
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oldiesman
From what I know of traffic law, the penalty could be as high as manslaughter or as low as a traffic ticket for running a red light, all depending on the drivers "state of mind". So yeah, its possible the guy could kill someone, and just get off with a traffic ticket! Riding a motorcycle can be a dangerous business and I'm fully aware of the risks involved.
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waysider
So you see, there's the difference.
You are aware of the risks.
The people who Weird-Wolf injured and damaged very likely didn't think they would be facing any "risks" by entrusting their well being to a man that turned out to be a callous, drunken, sexually deviant, delusional huckster. Shame on them. It's all their fault.
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oldiesman
Jeff,
I get the recurring feeling that when you talk about me having compassion, you really want me to be quiet. But the forums are here for debate and discussion, something you don't seem to get. This isn't a therapy session for wound addiction. As they say "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
I invited you to PM me to discuss any issues you like with me in private, but you declined. That's your prerogative. But I think its time now for you to take a different approach. Voicing your personal feelings toward me on a public forum isn't what the forums are for. I hope you get that.
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oldiesman
But as far as the assessment of blame or punishment for the driver, it still falls on the state of mind of the driver, not the state of mind of the motorcyclist.
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Nottawayfer
Sexual abusers never give thought to the affect their actions will have on their victims because they are selfish, cold-hearted bastages who deserve to rot in hell.
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waysider
Kinda makes ya wonder why anyone would defend and exalt them.(The abusers)
Maybe that's how VP came to be thought of as a king.
His worshipers seated him on a throne so the eyes of scrutiny would be diverted from themselves.
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Rocky
thank you Pawtucket for deleting Bumgarner's post, therefore, I too remove it from here.
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jen-o
if people feel so angry that they give voice to physical violence, then they need to take a step back (imo)
that level of anger being directed at a poster on a message board is MISPLACED and MISDIRECTED (again, imo)
sure we all get annoyed with various posters from time to time, but this kind of intense anger is over the top... i really don't get it... this is just a message board, peeeple...
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WordWolf
Usually, when tempers flare on messageboards, I recommend people log off and take a brisk walk around the block.
I've found it helps me quite a bit, and doctors recommend the mild exercise for a number of reasons.
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rascal
It is more than JUST a message board, friend. Maybe that is why you *don`t get it* ...yet! :)
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Rocky
never mind... and thanks again to Pawtucket for appropriately editing out threats made by another poster.
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