That's awful. They did all that research to find your posts on a forum and did nothing to actually answer your questions or fix (or at least LOOK at) their own flawed docterine. Since when was their moto to agree with everything someone says because they say it? I thought the whole point of the ministry was to REASEARCH and FIX stuff if they found something wrong - not just keep the same stagnant crud year after year. Ugh.
In April 2000 we were all called to the local fellowship coordinator's house for an important meeting. This was when the A//en lawsuit was announced. We were told at this time to report any news stories that we saw on the subject, but to not go on the internet looking for information. By midnight I had found WayDale.
You naughty boy you!!!!
Oak --- congrats. Your observations and comments cut to the chase.
There's no one left in twi who could offer a viable answer to your questions.
That's awful. They did all that research to find your posts on a forum and did nothing to actually answer your questions or fix (or at least LOOK at) their own flawed doctrine.
Exactly-all that work to find his posts in a forum,
but no time at all to examine raised questions about their own doctrine.
Since when was their moto to agree with everything someone says because they say it?
The UNofficial motto was to agree with everything vpw said because he said it. No OFFICIAL statement was ever
made aloud to that effect-but it was POLICY.
I thought the whole point of the ministry was to REASEARCH and FIX stuff if they found something wrong - not just keep the same stagnant crud year after year. Ugh.
They never claimed they were there to FIX anything.
Furthermore, they didn't even understand what it meant to RESEARCH anything.
Ever see when they said RESEARCH meant to REREAD submitted materials, to "SEARCH AGAIN" in them?
I no longer have the letter Oldies, and I don't recall everything that I mentioned, but the two biggest things that I addressed were the WayAP segments on "The Original Sin of Mankind" and "The Face of the Deep".
I addressed it from the point of view of someone using the "keys to research" that were taught in TWI. These two topics especially did not utilize any of the fundamentals that were introduced in PFAL. I pointed out that Martindale's claim that certain words he cited had sexual meanings was incorrect, based on a simple word study. I requested that if I was wrong, someone explain to me why and supply evidence.
Some of the issues that I had with Wierwille's stuff shows up in "Actual Errors in PFAL".
... I thought the whole point of the ministry was to RESEARCH and FIX stuff if they found something wrong - not just keep the same stagnant crud year after year. Ugh.
Right. I thought that was the point, too, back in 1970 when someone talked me into taking PFAL. I admit, they didn't have to twist my arm too hard, since I was so hungry for "answers."
Too bad VP did not allow for much FIXING...especially after the PFAL class was filmed. Couldn't redo it after all that $$ was spent!
Oakspear - congrats on your 7th anniversary. My 21st is this month.
In April 2000 we were all called to the local fellowship coordinator's house for an important meeting. This was when the A//en lawsuit was announced. We were told at this time to report any news stories that we saw on the subject, but to not go on the internet looking for information. By midnight I had found WayDale.
Over the next few months I heard things from within TWI that undermined the confidence that I had that I was "where the Word was taught" and started dissecting Way doctrine myself. I found many holes, not only in Martindale's class, but also in the "research" of Wierwille. The only reason that I ever put up with abuse of any kind was that I believed that "the Word" was being taught. Since that was no longer the case, I began looking for a way out, not easy, since my wife at the time was determined to stay in.
I was not shy about pointing out to "leadership" the errors and inconsistancies that I found. At one time, inspired by igotout's letter to Rivenbark, I wrote a letter to Secretary-Treasurer John Reynolds laying out what I saw as TWI's doctrinal problems. He called me one night and suggested that I present my issues to Region Coordinator Tom Horrocks, who would soon be teaching the foundational class in my area. Horrocks would be able to answer my questions, since he would be "working the Word" in preparation for teaching the class. When I told this to Horrocks, he said that he didn't need to work the Word, because if the class was good enough for the Trustees, it was good enough for him :o
A few months later, in August 2001, I was confronted by Horrocks, his wife, and our local fellowship coordinator with a sheef of printouts of my posts as "Twyril" on Grease Spot Cafe. A few days after that, Horrocks called me from Missouri, informing me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships because I "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction".
Thnaks Tom!
Great post, Oak!...just goes to show ya – the mentality of TWI leadership cannot deal with inquiring minds. And it seems as so often is the case, their avoidance of dealing with issues in an upfront, honest manner only leads to their undoing – they lose followers. They just can't control the reaction of a mind that's reached "critical mass" [that's a large sum of questionable details].
It's no secret I'm a big fan of yours – and I'm sure there's a lot of folks here that also appreciate the clarity and critical thinking savvy you bring to Grease Spot.
I can relate to your experience. When Passing of the Patriarch hit the fan – leaderships' stonewalling on many issues only intensified my desire to figure out what really went wrong and what was the current state of affairs [talking about business affairs – not bedroom affairs…although at the time, little did I know for some leaders, bedroom affairs was big business <_< ].
That's awful. They did all that research to find your posts on a forum and did nothing to actually answer your questions or fix (or at least LOOK at) their own flawed docterine. Since when was their moto to agree with everything someone says because they say it? I thought the whole point of the ministry was to REASEARCH and FIX stuff if they found something wrong - not just keep the same stagnant crud year after year. Ugh.
Ah yes – "stagnant crud" an apt description of the TWI frame of thought…The following is a commercial for the new High Colonic – formulated to alleviate such problems: Critical Thinking – it will flush out the stagnant crud.
I've been out for about 16 years now and while I'm happy about that, I have no axe to grind against the folks who are still there... I wish them well and hope they are happy. This is America, thank God for freedom of religion and if that is their chosen religion they have my best wishes.
Over the next few months I heard things from within TWI that undermined the confidence that I had that I was "where the Word was taught" and started dissecting Way doctrine myself. I found many holes, not only in Martindale's class, but also in the "research" of Wierwille.
and the "warm welcome" you received from those sycophants shows one thing, at least to me:
they will NOT change, unless it is EXPEDIENT, or under great duress..
In April 2000 we were all called to the local fellowship coordinator's house for an important meeting. This was when the A//en lawsuit was announced. We were told at this time to report any news stories that we saw on the subject, but to not go on the internet looking for information. By midnight I had found WayDale.
Over the next few months I heard things from within TWI that undermined the confidence that I had that I was "where the Word was taught" and started dissecting Way doctrine myself. I found many holes, not only in Martindale's class, but also in the "research" of Wierwille. The only reason that I ever put up with abuse of any kind was that I believed that "the Word" was being taught. Since that was no longer the case, I began looking for a way out, not easy, since my wife at the time was determined to stay in.
I was not shy about pointing out to "leadership" the errors and inconsistancies that I found. At one time, inspired by igotout's letter to Rivenbark, I wrote a letter to Secretary-Treasurer John Reynolds laying out what I saw as TWI's doctrinal problems. He called me one night and suggested that I present my issues to Region Coordinator Tom Horrocks, who would soon be teaching the foundational class in my area. Horrocks would be able to answer my questions, since he would be "working the Word" in preparation for teaching the class. When I told this to Horrocks, he said that he didn't need to work the Word, because if the class was good enough for the Trustees, it was good enough for him :o
A few months later, in August 2001, I was confronted by Horrocks, his wife, and our local fellowship coordinator with a sheef of printouts of my posts as "Twyril" on Grease Spot Cafe. A few days after that, Horrocks called me from Missouri, informing me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships because I "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction".
Thnaks Tom!
Why does it surprise me that they would not give you clear answers to all the inconsistencies, contradictions, and flat-out lies in TWI doctrine and history? I guess it's because I was never in TWI that I can't understand how a religious group, a group that claims to teach what God wants us to know, could be so deceptive. And the fact that that happened in 2001...it is very telling to me that they have not changed at all.
You also helped me tremendously with a study of epiluo which was met with the same disdain for questioning the validity of TWI teachings. They still teach those very things.
I have always admired you and, during that time especially, envied your strength, resolve and boldness.
A few months later, in August 2001, I was confronted by Horrocks, his wife, and our local fellowship coordinator with a sheef of printouts of my posts as "Twyril" on Grease Spot Cafe. A few days after that, Horrocks called me from Missouri, informing me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships because I "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction".
You know Oak:
Although you had to go thru that stupid kangaroo court, you are better off now being out than being in it and possibly going thru a few more stupid Kangaroo Courts.
Me... I left, more like escape and I never gave them the satisfaction of having me in their stupid Kangaroo Court. With all that scare of being out of protection from God if being out of TWI, I preferred to take on chance on that than being a slave of them.
"If this was being under God's umbrella of protection, it couldn't be any worse outside of it."
The umbrella in this case being closely related to a bag full of holes.
Haggai 1:6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.
I didn't save the work that I did on epiluō, but the short version is that Wierwille mistaught the word in PFAL.
It goes back to Wierwille's misunderstanding of Bullinger's section on it in How to Enjoy the Bible. Bullinger taught that the word epiluō meant to "unloose" and gave several examples from non-biblical Greek literature to illustrate its use. One was to open a letter, another was to let loose dogs upon the game. He also showed a number of uses in the bible where it was used in the sense of "expound".
Wierwille in PFAL used the example of letting the dogs loose and mistakenly focuused on the wild, uncontrolled aspect of the dogs after they had been let go, rampaging after the game, rather than what Bullinger correctly was emphasizing: the act of letting loose.
The point that I had made in a paper that I sent to Belle while we were both in TWI was that contrary to what Wierwille had taught "interpretation" itself was not a bad thing and that the whole "dogs" analogy taught by Wierwille and perpetuated by Martindale was wrong.
Belle brought this up to her "leadership", who, instead of addressing the merits (or lack of) of what I had said, defended and expounded on the analogy itself, teaching the example, rather than teaching the verse. To me this was a perfect illustration of how people in TWI were blindly following what Wierwille taught, and defending it no matter what evidense to the contrary existed. It also showed me how little Wierwille actually understood what Bullinger was writing, one instance among many where Wierwille quotes Bullinger to bolster a point that Bullinger isn't making, or is completely clueless as to what Bullinger is actually saying.
Before I forget, Belle was one of several Grease Spotters who supported me and assisted in maintaining my sanity during the months that I was still in, but working my way out, trying to convince my ex-wife that we ought to leave. Abigail is at the top of that list. Washn' wear tipped me off to the two-facedness of my new region coordinator Tom Horrocks. Igotout was a great help and an inspiration with his letter to Rosie. If it wasn't for GSC and many of the folks here, the transition to life outside a cult would have been much tougher.
I remember that about letting the dogs go loose and them rampaging around. =how our minds would rampage around if we didn't keep them strictly under control. =strictly under their control.
Never anything about the physical action of (as it were) untying the dogs, which you say.
Despite the "principle" of "the verse interprets itself...right there...in the context," so many times verses got yanked right out of context to support some "interpretation" exactly the opposite.
Research and teaching ministry my ****.
Spying and twisting ministry, more like.
Glad you got out and got some good support to ease the transition. It's greatly needed.
All we can do for current innies or recent escapees is to hold out our hands so that they can take their first staggering steps to freedom.
Glad you got out and got some good support to ease the transition. It's greatly needed.
All we can do for current innies or recent escapees is to hold out our hands so that they can take their first staggering steps to freedom.
{{Twinky}}
Yes I remember how it felt after we had jumped off the cliff. I felt like I was crumpled up at the bottom and eventually got around to staggering. But even in my crumpled up state I felt release and freedom from a load I never knew I was carrying!!!
I guess now we know it was a load of BS! :blink: :)
Congratulations Oak! I know you helped me four years later!
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Nero
That's awful. They did all that research to find your posts on a forum and did nothing to actually answer your questions or fix (or at least LOOK at) their own flawed docterine. Since when was their moto to agree with everything someone says because they say it? I thought the whole point of the ministry was to REASEARCH and FIX stuff if they found something wrong - not just keep the same stagnant crud year after year. Ugh.
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dmiller
You naughty boy you!!!!
Oak --- congrats. Your observations and comments cut to the chase.
There's no one left in twi who could offer a viable answer to your questions.
Actually --- I'm wondering if there ever was??
Happy Anniversary!!
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WordWolf
Exactly-all that work to find his posts in a forum,
but no time at all to examine raised questions about their own doctrine.
The UNofficial motto was to agree with everything vpw said because he said it. No OFFICIAL statement was evermade aloud to that effect-but it was POLICY.
They never claimed they were there to FIX anything.
Furthermore, they didn't even understand what it meant to RESEARCH anything.
Ever see when they said RESEARCH meant to REREAD submitted materials, to "SEARCH AGAIN" in them?
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oldiesman
Oakspear, do you still have a copy of the letter to Reynolds? I'd be interested to know what doctrinal problems you mentioned.
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Oakspear
I no longer have the letter Oldies, and I don't recall everything that I mentioned, but the two biggest things that I addressed were the WayAP segments on "The Original Sin of Mankind" and "The Face of the Deep".
I addressed it from the point of view of someone using the "keys to research" that were taught in TWI. These two topics especially did not utilize any of the fundamentals that were introduced in PFAL. I pointed out that Martindale's claim that certain words he cited had sexual meanings was incorrect, based on a simple word study. I requested that if I was wrong, someone explain to me why and supply evidence.
Some of the issues that I had with Wierwille's stuff shows up in "Actual Errors in PFAL".
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penworks
Right. I thought that was the point, too, back in 1970 when someone talked me into taking PFAL. I admit, they didn't have to twist my arm too hard, since I was so hungry for "answers."
Too bad VP did not allow for much FIXING...especially after the PFAL class was filmed. Couldn't redo it after all that $$ was spent!
Oakspear - congrats on your 7th anniversary. My 21st is this month.
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T-Bone
Great post, Oak!...just goes to show ya – the mentality of TWI leadership cannot deal with inquiring minds. And it seems as so often is the case, their avoidance of dealing with issues in an upfront, honest manner only leads to their undoing – they lose followers. They just can't control the reaction of a mind that's reached "critical mass" [that's a large sum of questionable details].
It's no secret I'm a big fan of yours – and I'm sure there's a lot of folks here that also appreciate the clarity and critical thinking savvy you bring to Grease Spot.
I can relate to your experience. When Passing of the Patriarch hit the fan – leaderships' stonewalling on many issues only intensified my desire to figure out what really went wrong and what was the current state of affairs [talking about business affairs – not bedroom affairs…although at the time, little did I know for some leaders, bedroom affairs was big business <_< ].
Ah yes – "stagnant crud" an apt description of the TWI frame of thought…The following is a commercial for the new High Colonic – formulated to alleviate such problems: Critical Thinking – it will flush out the stagnant crud.
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oldiesman
I've been out for about 16 years now and while I'm happy about that, I have no axe to grind against the folks who are still there... I wish them well and hope they are happy. This is America, thank God for freedom of religion and if that is their chosen religion they have my best wishes.
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Ham
and the "warm welcome" you received from those sycophants shows one thing, at least to me:
they will NOT change, unless it is EXPEDIENT, or under great duress..
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Brushstroke
Why does it surprise me that they would not give you clear answers to all the inconsistencies, contradictions, and flat-out lies in TWI doctrine and history? I guess it's because I was never in TWI that I can't understand how a religious group, a group that claims to teach what God wants us to know, could be so deceptive. And the fact that that happened in 2001...it is very telling to me that they have not changed at all.
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Belle
Yay, Oaks!
You also helped me tremendously with a study of epiluo which was met with the same disdain for questioning the validity of TWI teachings. They still teach those very things.
I have always admired you and, during that time especially, envied your strength, resolve and boldness.
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FreeFromCults
You know Oak:
Although you had to go thru that stupid kangaroo court, you are better off now being out than being in it and possibly going thru a few more stupid Kangaroo Courts.
Me... I left, more like escape and I never gave them the satisfaction of having me in their stupid Kangaroo Court. With all that scare of being out of protection from God if being out of TWI, I preferred to take on chance on that than being a slave of them.
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TheHighWay
That's exactly the point that I got to... I thought, "If this was being under God's umbrella of protetion, it couldn't be any worse outside of it."
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FreeFromCults
Good Call!
More like Good Thought!
As we found out, it's a heck of a lot a better outside of it.
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washn'wear
I remember that very well Oak.....
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!!!!!
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Twinky
Haggai 1:6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.
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Twinky
So what's this on "epiluo"?
Oak, can you PM me or attach something?
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Oakspear
I didn't save the work that I did on epiluō, but the short version is that Wierwille mistaught the word in PFAL.
It goes back to Wierwille's misunderstanding of Bullinger's section on it in How to Enjoy the Bible. Bullinger taught that the word epiluō meant to "unloose" and gave several examples from non-biblical Greek literature to illustrate its use. One was to open a letter, another was to let loose dogs upon the game. He also showed a number of uses in the bible where it was used in the sense of "expound".
Wierwille in PFAL used the example of letting the dogs loose and mistakenly focuused on the wild, uncontrolled aspect of the dogs after they had been let go, rampaging after the game, rather than what Bullinger correctly was emphasizing: the act of letting loose.
The point that I had made in a paper that I sent to Belle while we were both in TWI was that contrary to what Wierwille had taught "interpretation" itself was not a bad thing and that the whole "dogs" analogy taught by Wierwille and perpetuated by Martindale was wrong.
Belle brought this up to her "leadership", who, instead of addressing the merits (or lack of) of what I had said, defended and expounded on the analogy itself, teaching the example, rather than teaching the verse. To me this was a perfect illustration of how people in TWI were blindly following what Wierwille taught, and defending it no matter what evidense to the contrary existed. It also showed me how little Wierwille actually understood what Bullinger was writing, one instance among many where Wierwille quotes Bullinger to bolster a point that Bullinger isn't making, or is completely clueless as to what Bullinger is actually saying.
Before I forget, Belle was one of several Grease Spotters who supported me and assisted in maintaining my sanity during the months that I was still in, but working my way out, trying to convince my ex-wife that we ought to leave. Abigail is at the top of that list. Washn' wear tipped me off to the two-facedness of my new region coordinator Tom Horrocks. Igotout was a great help and an inspiration with his letter to Rosie. If it wasn't for GSC and many of the folks here, the transition to life outside a cult would have been much tougher.
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Twinky
I remember that about letting the dogs go loose and them rampaging around. =how our minds would rampage around if we didn't keep them strictly under control. =strictly under their control.
Never anything about the physical action of (as it were) untying the dogs, which you say.
Despite the "principle" of "the verse interprets itself...right there...in the context," so many times verses got yanked right out of context to support some "interpretation" exactly the opposite.
Research and teaching ministry my ****.
Spying and twisting ministry, more like.
Glad you got out and got some good support to ease the transition. It's greatly needed.
All we can do for current innies or recent escapees is to hold out our hands so that they can take their first staggering steps to freedom.
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penguin
{{Twinky}}
Yes I remember how it felt after we had jumped off the cliff. I felt like I was crumpled up at the bottom and eventually got around to staggering. But even in my crumpled up state I felt release and freedom from a load I never knew I was carrying!!!
I guess now we know it was a load of BS! :blink: :)
Congratulations Oak! I know you helped me four years later!
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