Then I can't understand how someone could even think that someone who squandered the meager 12 to 15 percent they were entrusted with on airplanes, motorcoaches and date rape drugs to be a "representative" of god either.
Don't take it as a personal attack. I'm really trying to understand this..
If I change majors, and get into psychology, maybe I'll use it for a thesis..
Maybe this "tithing", "abundant sharing" and "absent Christ" concepts actually do relate to one another.
Example.
Take a Godless, Christless organization, (he's *absent*, is he not?)- it would seem that would leave a rather large "hole". We can't just have a big hole out there.. someone might trip, and we'd get sued.
Wierwille put us up for an extra night at the hotel,because of a major snowstorm.Yes Virginia,This one was real!
I remember that Frank. Only time any "believers" saw any "blessing" in over twenty five years involvement. The only other time I know of that the proceeds of da "ministry" went to anything but it's self-serving purposes.. vic paid some local to bring rabbits in to ohio, because a bad winter killed them all. he wanted his grandkids to be able to see rabbits in the wild.
That's it- all I know of. That any of it went to actually help anyone, or anything.
It's like the memory of Capone. A few got doughnuts, as for the rest, well- they got dope, booze, mayhem and lead..
Who benefited from, and who controlled money given to "TWI?"
VPW was one of only 3 trustees, and his adoring brother and best friend were the other two, which in effect gave him virtually complete control over all the money. The givers had no say whatsoever in how money was used. The trustees answered to no one. All tithing and ABS went to the root, not to local staff.
"TWI" money paid for all VP's food, lodging, travel, airplanes, mobile home, houses in Gunnison and Ohio, vacations, hunting, liquor, cigarettes, etc. While TWI paid other expenses and people's salaries, VPW by far got the greatest (and very large) amounts for what amounted to personal use. TWI's closed financial system encouraged him to use it for self-gratification, without any real oversight.
By contrast, as pastor of a church, I do not control money. All members over age 14 vote on a budget and as a group have power over all uses and amounts. The church pays for none of my personal expenses at all (though I do receive a salary, the amount is set and publically known and voted on). I don't have a church credit card or funds to pay for my personal use of any vehicle, airplane, vacations, food, houses, etc.
VP both controled and benefited from money given so "TWI," so giving to TWI was nearly the same as givng to him.
Did Wierwille (or Martindale, or Rivenbark) ever pay taxes on, or tithe on, things TWI paid for which were essentially for personal use?
I suspect they benefited from others' tithes, but seldom paid any themselves. No leadership by example?
vic claimed to live on some ridiculously low salary. I forget what the exact amount was, but now I'm of the suspicion that it was only the amount that showed on the books. Then there were gifts, cash offerings, etc. from loyal followers. I HIGHLY doubt that any of these showed up on a 1040 form.
Even saying "tithes went to the trustees" would have been more accurate than saying "tithes to VP".
As a former participant, I do remember the heart and intent of the monies were to go for "the outreach of the Word of God" and it was in that heart and mindset that the monies (at least mine) were given.
Who benefited? Not only VP ... When folks got blessed and the word moved, everyone benefited. And as it says in the bible, "give and you shall receive" so there was benefit to the giver as well, something Jesus taught consistently. Also benefited many employees of twi who received pay for their work.
Also inaccurate was the remark about tithing supposedly only counting in twi. VPW taught otherwise.
Did the trustees tithe.. I don't think so. Unless one considers the money vic *reluctantly* forked out for abortions for corps who weren't *careful*.. as some strange, twisted kind of "tithe"..
As far as donations- I think they donated ministry money to the surrounding schools a couple of years ago, and at least one university. Not their own personal money, I don't think.
Who benefited from, and who controlled money given to "TWI?"
VPW was one of only 3 trustees, and his adoring brother and best friend were the other two, which in effect gave him virtually complete control over all the money. The givers had no say whatsoever in how money was used. The trustees answered to no one. All tithing and ABS went to the root, not to local staff.
Actually John that is not true. I've seen money go to the branch where money was kept for paying local expenses ,then the rest to the Limb where again money was spent on expenses then what was left left for Ohio.
Ross Tr*cy personally authorized money to be spent on our home here that we rented and the branch used for classes. They paid to re-wallpaper the downstairs of the home. We also used ABS to remodel an office for the branch leaders use. The Limb spent money on new chairs. As well as some other expenses.
Actually John that is not true. I've seen money go to the branch where money was kept for paying local expenses ,then the rest to the Limb where again money was spent on expenses then what was left left for Ohio.
Ross Tr*cy personally authorized money to be spent on our home here that we rented and the branch used for classes. They paid to re-wallpaper the downstairs of the home. We also used ABS to remodel an office for the branch leaders use. The Limb spent money on new chairs. As well as some other expenses.
Was this money that "went to the branch" abundant sharing? Or was it a separate fund? I was under the impression that any money from abundant sharing, class fees, sales of bookstore materials etc was to go directly to New Knoxville. I believe that this policy went into effect in the very early 70's.
Also inaccurate was the remark about tithing supposedly only counting in twi. VPW taught otherwise.
It was not directly taught that tithes only counted if given to TWI, but there was an assumption that money or energy directed elsewhere was a waste of money and time. I know, because we supported several ministries outside TWI and were told it just wasn't the same. I disagreed and gave according.
It was not directly taught that tithes only counted if given to TWI, but there was an assumption that money or energy directed elsewhere was a waste of money and time. I know, because we supported several ministries outside TWI and were told it just wasn't the same. I disagreed and gave according.
The argument went that (UGH repeating this dribble is nauseating) in order to be a good steward you were responsible to give to the best and not just a good cause.
And of course the Grammy for Best Cause goes to...
Ross Tr*cy personally authorized money to be spent on our home here that we rented and the branch used for classes. They paid to re-wallpaper the downstairs of the home. We also used ABS to remodel an office for the branch leaders use. The Limb spent money on new chairs. As well as some other expenses.
Nice try, WD.......
YOUR example of citing Rev. Ross Tr@cy is far from the twi norm..........but then, I highly suspect that you realize this.
First, Rev. Tr@cy came from out of the pail of church denominational policies and procedures. He was NOT from the same cloth of vpw-indoctrination. He was his OWN man! A confident pastor/minister for the Lord. So, yeah I can easily see how Rev. Tr@cy would allocate funds for the branch and NOT SEND IT TO TWI HQ.
The twi indoctrination to all wows, tc, bc, lc, rc..........SEND MONIES DIRECTLY TO TWI EVERY MONDAY BEFORE THE MAIL GOES OUT. To do otherwise would bring the wrath of the trunk office to your door!
Joh, that sounds like what we were taught while I was involved in the 90's through 2004. I'm glad to see they are at least putting it in writing these days. <_<
Not one penny of ABS was used "on the field" while I was involved until it had been accounted for; gone to HQ and then "approved" by HQ who then cut a check for said approved expenses. Not one penny of those expenses went to help anyone in TWI... it was used for meeting room rent and whatnot, but even then, we usually paid for that, too.
Was this money that "went to the branch" abundant sharing? Or was it a separate fund? I was under the impression that any money from abundant sharing, class fees, sales of bookstore materials etc was to go directly to New Knoxville. I believe that this policy went into effect in the very early 70's.
No it was ABS money The Way of Kansas paid the Branch bills here first, what was left the went to the Limb in Wichita where state bills were paid, then to Ohio for International bills. Later on that did change to a centralized system in Ohio. But then hey what do I know I just live in Kansas.........
The outreach of the word?Were we not part of that outreach?Yeah maybe they fixed a house,but what about
when someone needed somthing?Twi charged the hell out of us,for everything,then told us what a deal we got,
Churches give back,If someones house burnt down,they help,clothes ect.What happens when your car blows up?
I was told to believe,whilst twi had a fleet they owned yes owned not leased,sitting on thier property that sat.
With the tithe I gave them.
Who the hell were the ministry?The bot said they only had 3 members,were we not the "ministry"?
The primary purpose in churches is not to fix someone's car. Ministries need money to function. There always will be someone in line that thinks they are owed a free ride, our country breeds this mentality with its social programs. I took my car in recently for some repair work funny I did not see the United Fund at the counter offering to pay the bill either. It is ridicules to think that they should somehow care for your personal items.
YOUR example of citing Rev. Ross Tr@cy is far from the twi norm..........but then, I highly suspect that you realize this.
First, Rev. Tr@cy came from out of the pail of church denominational policies and procedures. He was NOT from the same cloth of vpw-indoctrination. He was his OWN man! A confident pastor/minister for the Lord. So, yeah I can easily see how Rev. Tr@cy would allocate funds for the branch and NOT SEND IT TO TWI HQ.
The twi indoctrination to all wows, tc, bc, lc, rc..........SEND MONIES DIRECTLY TO TWI EVERY MONDAY BEFORE THE MAIL GOES OUT. To do otherwise would bring the wrath of the trunk office to your door!
Ross was functioning as a Limb leader for the Way as such it was not a personal decision. He was not the only one to do so Bob Wi*ngarner paid to house some believers here in a hotel that had a fire in their house until repairs could be made. K*n Bro*n also did the same when he was here.
Joh, that sounds like what we were taught while I was involved in the 90's through 2004. I'm glad to see they are at least putting it in writing these days. <_<
Not one penny of ABS was used "on the field" while I was involved until it had been accounted for; gone to HQ and then "approved" by HQ who then cut a check for said approved expenses. Not one penny of those expenses went to help anyone in TWI... it was used for meeting room rent and whatnot, but even then, we usually paid for that, too.
I suspect in your time that was true, but it was not always that way.
Look at acts,as every one had need,all things common.
My point was and is the abundance twi had,they could have given of thier abundance ie
extra cars.
On a side light,years later,when I had a "real job" I did let someone use a car of mine,
she paid the insurance,When she blew it up,she called,please pick up your car,it is at such and such.
After pop,the lcs got brand new cars,say bye bye....
I know once given,it was "thier" money.Maybe thats why they lost thier a@@ on Rome city.
Giving and recieving,guess they got coming to them.
Yet it was "ok" to give to the lc region whatever,One time after being "out of twi,It was around christmas,
waiting in line at mejer,a family was in front of me,they were short 20 bucks on thier bill,the husband starting
to get upset,I said here merry christmas.
Point cheapskate twi helped none but themselves.
Ok Frank so they give you a spare car that satisfies you. What about the next 200 behind you and the 200 behind them? Now lets swich to other items like houses medical care and on and on It is impossible to care for everyones lack, nor do I think it is their job.
I know nothing of the sort. All I know is to go by what he taught and wrote and at this point refrain from making an assumption. And no, tithing to VPW IS DIFFERENT than tithing to twi. He didn't say "tithe to the man of God" or even "tithe to me". He said what he said, let's be accurate. I think TWI was much more than just VPW alone. Words mean something and I oppose fudging words like that.
page 38 (CSBP)
"God will open the windows of heaven the moment you lay your tithe at 'the apostle's feet'."
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Ham
Then I don't see how people can't understand logic.
1. God REQUIRES a tithe from you, as a bare MINIMUM, to be given to "those who are his REPRESENTATIVES", as a BARE MINIMUM.
2. *WE* are his REPRESENTATIVES.
3.. So some infer, "naw, they NEVER SAID to give them da money.."
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Ham
Then I can't understand how someone could even think that someone who squandered the meager 12 to 15 percent they were entrusted with on airplanes, motorcoaches and date rape drugs to be a "representative" of god either.
Don't take it as a personal attack. I'm really trying to understand this..
If I change majors, and get into psychology, maybe I'll use it for a thesis..
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frank123lol
My fatherinlaw once said to me,"You give too much dam@ money to the way'That was back in the mid 80"s
Shoulda listened to him! This tithing only "worked" if you were a few special people,Limb or above.
New car,nice clothes,richey neighborhood,seemingly endless suppy of cash ola,(though when I was a Woe,
wow to most.the lc of ole miss borrowed some money from me,til the end of the month)
Like Mr.Ham said,to this effectIf you gotta bribe god,he is pretty small.
Twi,The extra special cheap skate cult!Only once in my 20 some year involvement did they spend any money,
Was at Cicago 1982,Wierwille put us up for an extra night at the hotel,because of a major snowstorm.Yes Virginia,This one was real!
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Ham
Maybe this "tithing", "abundant sharing" and "absent Christ" concepts actually do relate to one another.
Example.
Take a Godless, Christless organization, (he's *absent*, is he not?)- it would seem that would leave a rather large "hole". We can't just have a big hole out there.. someone might trip, and we'd get sued.
What to fill it with? Hmm.. how about.. MONEY?
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Ham
I remember that Frank. Only time any "believers" saw any "blessing" in over twenty five years involvement. The only other time I know of that the proceeds of da "ministry" went to anything but it's self-serving purposes.. vic paid some local to bring rabbits in to ohio, because a bad winter killed them all. he wanted his grandkids to be able to see rabbits in the wild.
That's it- all I know of. That any of it went to actually help anyone, or anything.
It's like the memory of Capone. A few got doughnuts, as for the rest, well- they got dope, booze, mayhem and lead..
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johnj
Was giving to TWI different than giving to VPW?
Who benefited from, and who controlled money given to "TWI?"
VPW was one of only 3 trustees, and his adoring brother and best friend were the other two, which in effect gave him virtually complete control over all the money. The givers had no say whatsoever in how money was used. The trustees answered to no one. All tithing and ABS went to the root, not to local staff.
"TWI" money paid for all VP's food, lodging, travel, airplanes, mobile home, houses in Gunnison and Ohio, vacations, hunting, liquor, cigarettes, etc. While TWI paid other expenses and people's salaries, VPW by far got the greatest (and very large) amounts for what amounted to personal use. TWI's closed financial system encouraged him to use it for self-gratification, without any real oversight.
By contrast, as pastor of a church, I do not control money. All members over age 14 vote on a budget and as a group have power over all uses and amounts. The church pays for none of my personal expenses at all (though I do receive a salary, the amount is set and publically known and voted on). I don't have a church credit card or funds to pay for my personal use of any vehicle, airplane, vacations, food, houses, etc.
VP both controled and benefited from money given so "TWI," so giving to TWI was nearly the same as givng to him.
Did Wierwille (or Martindale, or Rivenbark) ever pay taxes on, or tithe on, things TWI paid for which were essentially for personal use?
I suspect they benefited from others' tithes, but seldom paid any themselves. No leadership by example?
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Ham
vic claimed to live on some ridiculously low salary. I forget what the exact amount was, but now I'm of the suspicion that it was only the amount that showed on the books. Then there were gifts, cash offerings, etc. from loyal followers. I HIGHLY doubt that any of these showed up on a 1040 form.
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frank123lol
Yeah,That is a good question,Did the bot tithe?Practice what they preach,preached?
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oldiesman
Even saying "tithes went to the trustees" would have been more accurate than saying "tithes to VP".
As a former participant, I do remember the heart and intent of the monies were to go for "the outreach of the Word of God" and it was in that heart and mindset that the monies (at least mine) were given.
Who benefited? Not only VP ... When folks got blessed and the word moved, everyone benefited. And as it says in the bible, "give and you shall receive" so there was benefit to the giver as well, something Jesus taught consistently. Also benefited many employees of twi who received pay for their work.
Also inaccurate was the remark about tithing supposedly only counting in twi. VPW taught otherwise.
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Ham
Did the trustees tithe.. I don't think so. Unless one considers the money vic *reluctantly* forked out for abortions for corps who weren't *careful*.. as some strange, twisted kind of "tithe"..
As far as donations- I think they donated ministry money to the surrounding schools a couple of years ago, and at least one university. Not their own personal money, I don't think.
Probably tired of the locals on their backs..
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WhiteDove
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frank123lol
The outreach of the word?Were we not part of that outreach?Yeah maybe they fixed a house,but what about
when someone needed somthing?Twi charged the hell out of us,for everything,then told us what a deal we got,
Churches give back,If someones house burnt down,they help,clothes ect.What happens when your car blows up?
I was told to believe,whilst twi had a fleet they owned yes owned not leased,sitting on thier property that sat.
With the tithe I gave them.
Who the hell were the ministry?The bot said they only had 3 members,were we not the "ministry"?
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Oakspear
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Tzaia
It was not directly taught that tithes only counted if given to TWI, but there was an assumption that money or energy directed elsewhere was a waste of money and time. I know, because we supported several ministries outside TWI and were told it just wasn't the same. I disagreed and gave according.
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doojable
The argument went that (UGH repeating this dribble is nauseating) in order to be a good steward you were responsible to give to the best and not just a good cause.
And of course the Grammy for Best Cause goes to...
*opens envelope*
TWI!
*even the crickets in the audience are silent*
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skyrider
Quote by WD:
Nice try, WD.......
YOUR example of citing Rev. Ross Tr@cy is far from the twi norm..........but then, I highly suspect that you realize this.
First, Rev. Tr@cy came from out of the pail of church denominational policies and procedures. He was NOT from the same cloth of vpw-indoctrination. He was his OWN man! A confident pastor/minister for the Lord. So, yeah I can easily see how Rev. Tr@cy would allocate funds for the branch and NOT SEND IT TO TWI HQ.
The twi indoctrination to all wows, tc, bc, lc, rc..........SEND MONIES DIRECTLY TO TWI EVERY MONDAY BEFORE THE MAIL GOES OUT. To do otherwise would bring the wrath of the trunk office to your door!
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dmiller
Perhaps some of the monies gathered through ABS WERE used out *in the field*. Perhaps.
For what it's worth, I did the ABS route while in also. But I ran into trouble from the org for the way I did it.
Seems ALL MY ABS HAD to go to Hdqtrs., where they would decide what to do with it.
I didn't see it that way. After all it was my money, I was *freely giving*, and I chose where it went.
I helped sponsor a couple of different folks though the corp and I counted that as ABS. It was giving, right?
It was helping to "further the Word" by the *teaching and training* others enjoyed, right?? You'd think so.
But twi didn't. Not noway, nohow, not ever. They were p!$$ed (royally) that I would count sponsorship as ABS.
I was told in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that my giving HAD to go to Hdqtrs. if it "was going to count".
I told them that I figured out my ABS% I wanted to give, did the sponsorship first, and then Hdqtrs got the rest.
Who the-hell-is/was-the-judge-of-what-"counts"?????????????? God judges hearts, NOT men.
I never saw them helping out *the family* with the monies they garnered. Perhaps they did,
but give me something to work with besides wallpaper or re-modeling for a way home, eh?????
I don't know what they did with the money I contributed over the 10 years (or so) I was in,
but that alone could have put someone through the corps with no questions asked, as one example.
There's a black hole in New Knoxville Ohio. And (imo) they want to suck everything they can into it.
Even *giving* (sponsoring future *robots for twi*) wasn't acceptable. They want to see the cash.
"It's the CASH, ALL the Cash, and NOTHING BUT THE CASH!" <<< ----- (Literal according to usage).
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Belle
Joh, that sounds like what we were taught while I was involved in the 90's through 2004. I'm glad to see they are at least putting it in writing these days. <_<
Not one penny of ABS was used "on the field" while I was involved until it had been accounted for; gone to HQ and then "approved" by HQ who then cut a check for said approved expenses. Not one penny of those expenses went to help anyone in TWI... it was used for meeting room rent and whatnot, but even then, we usually paid for that, too.
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WhiteDove
No it was ABS money The Way of Kansas paid the Branch bills here first, what was left the went to the Limb in Wichita where state bills were paid, then to Ohio for International bills. Later on that did change to a centralized system in Ohio. But then hey what do I know I just live in Kansas.........
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WhiteDove
The primary purpose in churches is not to fix someone's car. Ministries need money to function. There always will be someone in line that thinks they are owed a free ride, our country breeds this mentality with its social programs. I took my car in recently for some repair work funny I did not see the United Fund at the counter offering to pay the bill either. It is ridicules to think that they should somehow care for your personal items.
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WhiteDove
Ross was functioning as a Limb leader for the Way as such it was not a personal decision. He was not the only one to do so Bob Wi*ngarner paid to house some believers here in a hotel that had a fire in their house until repairs could be made. K*n Bro*n also did the same when he was here.
I suspect in your time that was true, but it was not always that way.
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frank123lol
Look at acts,as every one had need,all things common.
My point was and is the abundance twi had,they could have given of thier abundance ie
extra cars.
On a side light,years later,when I had a "real job" I did let someone use a car of mine,
she paid the insurance,When she blew it up,she called,please pick up your car,it is at such and such.
After pop,the lcs got brand new cars,say bye bye....
I know once given,it was "thier" money.Maybe thats why they lost thier a@@ on Rome city.
Giving and recieving,guess they got coming to them.
Yet it was "ok" to give to the lc region whatever,One time after being "out of twi,It was around christmas,
waiting in line at mejer,a family was in front of me,they were short 20 bucks on thier bill,the husband starting
to get upset,I said here merry christmas.
Point cheapskate twi helped none but themselves.
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WhiteDove
Ok Frank so they give you a spare car that satisfies you. What about the next 200 behind you and the 200 behind them? Now lets swich to other items like houses medical care and on and on It is impossible to care for everyones lack, nor do I think it is their job.
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waysider
page 38 (CSBP)
"God will open the windows of heaven the moment you lay your tithe at 'the apostle's feet'."
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