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You think I worship VPW? No, you do.

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To Everyone,

I'll tell you what I really think.

Hey, you know, what can you do? People see only what they want to see. Everyone rails on me saying that I am defending and justifying VPW's errors. Well, whatever.

I for one, when leaving the Way told God how I didn't want to carry around evil in my heart. God was able to help me heal and get over my disappoinments. And it didn't take 6 years after being out to get over it either. If God will help me heal, then why hasn't He seemed to help others here at GS who claim to be so devastated? Well of course we know He would if people would come to Him. But they aren't coming to Him. They don't come to Him because they don't want to be healed.

People talk about Buck, myself, and others as justifying error. That's very hypocritical of them because they do the very thing they accuse us of. They justify their bitterness, rage, and unforgiving hearts by putting emphasis on what they have experienced and not what the Word says to do.

John 3:20

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

This scripture comes to mind when I think of people at GS who carry such big axes to grind. Any logic and truth from the Word that is presented to them is immediately dismissed and sarcastic comments and personal criticisms and insults fly from their mouths.

They don't want to listen to the light of God's Word concerning this type of situation because if they listened, they would know that God's Word would tell them to let it go, start fresh, and move on with your life. But that's just it, they don't want to hear that. They are all too content having fury grow like so many weeds and vines that suffocate and choke the life out of the beautiful garden of their hearts for God and for people. Instead of sprinting ahead in life with their new found liberty in Christ, they instead wish to remain spiritually oppressed and enslaved by bitterness.

You know some people here talk about me being a "worshiper" of VPW. This is also very hypocritical to say because in fact it is many here at GS who claim to despise VPW, who indeed are the ones who worhsip him. They are consumed with him. The man has been dead for almost 20 years and yet people who have been out of the Way, some people for decades, are still obsessed with what is happening with the Way International. People basically eat, sleep, and drink here at GS.

People are consumed with what VPW wrote, what VPW said and what VPW did. And people will spend all their free time checking up on what's going on with the Way or checking to see what someone has to say about the Way.

I would love to see how many people come home from work, throw their keys on the table and the first thing that they do is walk over and fire up that computer because they gotta see what's happening in discussions about the Way. It's out of control. It's an obsession for many people here.

No wonder you never get over the hurt. How can you ever move on and repair your heart when you bathe yourself in bitterness? You can't. And as a matter of fact, if that kind of thinking goes on long enough (which for many here, it has), spirits will come in and take up residence in your heart to try to insure that you never get over it. Yes, that's right folks, I am still one who believes that there are devil spirits and that they enter people's lives through weak, ungodly thoughts and habits of life.

There are many weak and ungodly thoughts posted by people here at GS. And saying we should forgive one another is not one of them.

Erick Konkel

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Hi Erick,

While I respect your right to think what you want to, I AM GLAD these people post the FACTS about what ACTUALLY happened to them and the FACTS about what they know.

I'm glad that they post their experiences and observations. I'm glad they share some of the most horrendous abuse and I'm really glad they do it over and over again.

Why? Because if they told their story once and moved on I would have missed it.

I would still think I was the only one hurt.

I would still think I was the only one who felt like a total failure.

I would still think that I was the only one who didn't believe some of the things TWI taught and I wouldn't have the answers that I now do.

I would still think that it wasn't TWI, but me that was failing God.

I would still be blindly obedient to TWI and some-what idolizing the leaders.

I would still be giving an obscene amount of money to them.

I would still be paying rent twice as much as my house payment.

I would still be believing God to somehow cover my retirement instead of putting the money from the above 2 lines into a retirement account and taking 'worldly' advice that is better than ANY I got from TWI.

I would still be afraid to make a decision without the blessing of my leadership.

I would still be afraid of dying because I want to leave the 'household'.

I would still believe that VP was an honest, godly man full of integrity and valor.

I would still believe 'it was a one time affair' and that was the only lawsuit.

I could go on, but I think (hope) you get my drift.

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You know what, Erick? You don't have to defend yourself to us, and we don't have to defend ourselves to you. This is an open forum message board and the people who are here, are here of their own free will.

If Mike wants to call Wierwille's work God-breathed and spent 32 years ferreting out its truths, that's his business and not ours. If he wants to TALK about it, then it's our business only insofar as he has MADE it our business.

If I want to go over the books Wierwille wrote and sort out the good from the bad, not only is that my RIGHT, but it's my BIBLICAL RESPONSIBILITY and I will NOT allow you to criticize me for exercising it (not without responding, anyway). "Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good." I choose to apply that to Wierwille's writings. Don't like it? Too bad.

I understand where you're coming from. I really do. But if you have a problem with people discussing the works and impact of Victor Paul Wierwille and L. Craig Martindale, then this is the wrong Cafe for you. Not that I want you to leave. I think your perspective is as valuable as everyone else's. It's just, what are you doing here if it's not to discuss TWI doctrine, practice, history and influence?

The Living Epistles Society

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you really must be helping people left, right and center with your attitude...

I mean, you have all the answers, right????

...I mean you, and others have "believed" God to go help all these poor, unfortunate, self-duped women who just are all confused and don't know what they're talking about BUT thank God YOU have been there with the Word and all--right???



.... . oh, no??????


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Thanks Insurgent, you wrote almost exactly what I was thinking about.

Posting these incidents and discussions can be part of the healing process.

Try to look at it that way Erick.

Oakspear icon_cool.gif

"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"

Henri Poincare

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Erick, and others who support his drivel....

So what you are saying is, the destruction of the life of my sister is worth what you got out of being involved in TWI?

Her life doesn't matter to you. Only what you got out of being involved in what the man who violated her life did for you.

I know there are far more than just one or two people who VPW violated and devastated and defamed. I suppose if you look at all the broken lives, marriages, families, and even suicides left in the wake of The Way International, I guess you think it was all worth it because of the piddly little bit you think you got out of it.

Too bad Gacy is dead. He probably would have shoveled your driveway.

Can't think of a more selfish attitude at the moment than the one you display.

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Erick - You wrote, "Everyone rails on me saying that I am defending and justifying VPWs errors."

Have *I* railed on you saying those things? I respect the passion you are feeling, but sometimes people in the throes of passion need to take reality checks. I do it, and have to help my wife do it, all the time.

I have some *really big* axes to grind here, but I'm not "spiritually oppressed and enslaved by bitterness". There are some people here who might seem to fall into that catagory, and some of them are hasty and harsh in their speech. But don't lose your perspective on their account.

Other posters like alphakat and Catcup are working through passions every bit as valid as your own.

I have benefited from many of your posts in the past, and am glad you are here, working along your own path to freedom, sharing your experiences with us. Please don't leave, or close your mind to the experiences of others.



[This message was edited by Steve Lortz on January 29, 2003 at 10:23.]

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Erik: It's not that easy to be healed when you've been hurt. (btw, I never met weirwille) My dad has been dead over 10 years and sometimes I think about things in the past and it drives me insane.

Sometimes I still dream of him being alive and I always wake up so relieved that it was just a dream and he's really dead and I don't have to deal with his BS ever again.

It certainly doesn't help, when people try to cover up the truth about situations that happened in the past, as many Wierwille loyalists so fiercly do.

Being healed doesn't mean pretending things never happened. Everybody deals with pain in there own way. It's a personal journey.


...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...

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Okay, I'll accept that I misread you.

Is it possible you've misread the people who post here? Is it possible you don't understand them nearly as much as you implied by offering such stern reproof? Is it possible that you have as much to learn about holding people accountable as others have to learn about forgiveness?

And is it possible that we reach our answers, and maybe at times a consensus, through exactly the kind of conversations that are the norm here at the Cafe?

The Living Epistles Society

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Where ARE you coming from, Erick? [asked very sincerely]

With tempered respect for vpw's life and works, I choose to walk forward in God's goodness and grace. Had I never heard of twi, I believe that God in His infinite mercy would have reached me some other way. That being said.......seeking counsel from dead men, as if it were PRESENT TRUTH, falls into the same category as Saul seeking out the witch of Endor.

Maybe, that is a bit harsh of a comparison........but the similarities are

chilling. Saul had lost his connection, his spirit, with God and sought out the woman of Endor to gain Samuel's (the prophet) counsel. WHY? "...THAT THOU MAYEST MAKE KNOWN UNTO ME WHAT I SHALL DO . What was Saul asking for?? He sought PREVAILING

WORDS [from a dead man, Samuel] in a time of desperation and the Lord had forsaken him.

Saul had disobeyed.....Saul had lied......Saul had deceitfully covered.....Saul blamed others.....Saul no longer had God's power to conquer the enemies. He reached for counterfeit measures........He soon perished.

Relics..........idolatry...........devil spirits...........WITCHCRAFT.

Twi keeps looking "to the dead" for direction, when they should be looking to the God of LIFE!!

Twi keeps honoring the words of men, when they should be worshipping and magnifying the Author of the Words of Eternity!!

Flash forward to present truth twi - seems all we do is read AROUND the Bible .....collaterals, syllabus, tapes, magazine, heartbeat (am I forgeting anything?).......

Course if we ever actually tossed the books and read the Bible none of us would have stuck around so long eh?........ Thank God, Rafael and the others are digging into the TRUTH compared to what we were taught! I've learned more here than I have in all my years with twi.

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Yes, I am sorry to hear about your father. I know everybody deals with pain in their own way. We're all individuals.

I'm no stranger to pain and hurt, lonliness, or sorrow.

The Way stole my mom and dad from me too for awhile. Thank God it didn't take us but about 6 months before we woke up and said "screw this".

I can remember a time in my life when I was in such sorrow and pain, because of the Way and other things in life, that I honestly didn't know what to do. I was alone and had nobody to talk to because the Way had stolen away from me all of my family and friends because I was M&A for basically confronting LCM at the Advanced Class in '98.

I remember balling like a little baby and for the first time in my life I remember going to God and pleading for my life and for Him to help me get out of this mess. Of course I had gone to God many times before. But for the first time I went to him feeling that my life and my future was in jeopardy. God immediatley responded with revelation. Go figure that. God spoke to me while I was M&A!

Sure it wasn't easy to get back on my feet. It took a lot of renewed mind. But despite how great my pain was, God drowned it with His love by reassuring me, by teaching me more of the Word, by breaking down the wall between my parents and I that the Way had built between us. God helped me and was patient with me as I grew strong again.

So I know firsthand what people have gone through. But I cried to the Lord and He heard me and delivered me.

When people want to get out of the sorrow and the hurt and they seek the Lord, God provides deliverance mighty quickly....if you will do your part as well. And walking around cursing VPW, LCM, even other believers on this site who have never done anything to you, all because what happened years ago, is not a blessing to God and you're closing the door on what He has available for you. God is mighty big and he has a way to escape for all people who have suffered loss and ruin by the hands of the Way.

I take comfort in knowing that those here at GS who genuinely want to be delivered, God will show you the way to wholeness.

Erick Konkel

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I will admit to the reality that I'm sure there a lot of great people here at GS. I don't know all of their details nor all of their heart. All I have to go on is the posts that people leave. And ususally, the written word is a good indication of where people's hearts are.

Some people's hearts here appear very genuine and godly, while still many others appear very vile and spiritually debased.

When it's all said and done, my desire is for God's people to be over the past and be over the hurt.

While GS may be of value for some in the healing process, I feel that it is not so good for others who may be looking for deliverance. There's too much animosity waiting to leap upon someone who says anything remotely positive about TWI and people who trash the Word of God and who don't believe. People who need deliverance don't need to be around where that kind of stuff dwells. We shouldn't try to heal hurt by replacing it with hatred and I feel that has happened to many who have come here to the Cafe.

Erick Konkel

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Ever try to pull a splinter out of the paw of a pit bull? Seriously dangerous work.

A lot of people here were wounded. Some physically. Many emotionally and intellectually. Pulling the splinter out can be really painful, but there's no real relief until that happens.

For some people here, the splinter is still in. Talking about the need for forgiveness is like trying to pull it out, and that really hurts. It takes work to convince them that the temporary pain of removing the splinter leads to a much greater healing. But it's easy for me to say, because I don't have a splinter in my paw.

The analogy only goes so far. Suffice it to say that if I were to try to remove a splinter from the paw of a pit bull, I'd try to be a little more careful rather than tell it to shut up and let me pull.

Also: in case you're not aware, this message board is for ex-Way members. It's not solely for Christians. There are many people here who reject the Bible and Christianity. There is no consensus on this board as to the need for and value of forgiveness. So when you come here talking about "deliverance" and other ideals, you can expect some hostility in return precisely because some people have no more interest in the Bible than they do in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Words to consider.

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Ex: LOL (eric, ex has a thing about reading lengthy posts...so do I! icon_smile.gif:)--> )

Eric, I know you have a great heart, I'm just not sure what it means to "seek the lord" anymore. I've had Fundies tell me that. They believe (well, certain branches) that you don't need therapy or support groups..they say you should just Lay everything at the Alter of the Lord.

Well...that sounds real bibical you know? But WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MEAN? Sorry to shout. That wasn't for you.

Or they tell you if you want to seek Jesus, just "look him in the face."

Using one of ex's favorite phrases....huh?

So, eric: I think you have a wonderful heart. I wish I was half the person you are in fact. I guess I just don't get how people can be healed yet?

PS ex: Hope you don't mind me quoting you!


...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...

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Here's something to consider: Maybe you would think differently about VPW and his actions if it had been your family--sister, mom, girlfriend, or wife--who had been coerced into servicing him.

Would you be so forigiving then? He was a sicko either way you look at it. He used his power to get women.

There once was a girl from Nantucket....

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Dear Erick

Many of us wayfers carry alot of emotional/spiritual baggage because of our, in some cases, decades-long involvement with a very hypocritical organization, (ie cult.)

(OK, if you don't like that term, call it what you will, how's denomination sound?) Sometimes working through all the grief and pain of that, and trying to glean some good from it, can be very messy business. But it's very neccessary business in order to move on with life. Everybody here, I feel I can safely say, is working through their own unique experiences and trying to make some sense of it all, and salvage whatever good may come from it. And sadly, for some, there doesn't seem to be much good there. Only heartache and pain. So should we just gloss over the grief? And say "Just get over it?" I don't think that's what Christianity in general, and Jesus in particular are about. Maybe you think differently. I respect that, but I also think you should respect others as well. Jesus always reached out with compassion and understanding, not critical judgment. Just something to think about.....

Love to you and yours,


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Erick, I am sure you mean well. However, I don't think you are objective enough to the sins and doctrinal errors of VPW to be of much help in Christian ministry, yet. Have you written anything of biblical value that does not have Way Ministry theological blinders? Something that can be of value to all Christians and not just Ex-Way people. I have done this. So has Rafael and so have a few other people that have posted on Grease Spot Cafe. To the best of my knowledge you have not. And if you have why haven't you posted some of this in the doctrinal section here?

Erick, I am sure you mean well, but you are still very new to being away from TWI hypocrisy. It is going to take you more time to break away from this snare.

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