Well, it was interesting to a noob like me, anyway.
I guess one of the concepts that intrigued me the most was that the "dead are dead." They cite several verses that seem to support that belief and it goes completely against what I and most other Christians were taught.
STF's beliefs are more along the lines of the Jewish faith that evolved over time, which is a bodily resurrection when a messiah comes. That is why Jews don't cremate.
It's all pure speculation anyway - eternal life - when it happens. No one knows.
Well, it was interesting to a noob like me, anyway.
I guess one of the concepts that intrigued me the most was that the "dead are dead." They cite several verses that seem to support that belief and it goes completely against what I and most other Christians were taught.
STF's beliefs are more along the lines of the Jewish faith that evolved over time, which is a bodily resurrection when a messiah comes. That is why Jews don't cremate.
It's all pure speculation anyway - eternal life - when it happens. No one knows.
There have been Christian groups that have embraced this belief as well. If you're interested, Google "conditional immortality" or specific groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, the Church of God Abrahamic Faith, Restoration Fellowship, Advent Christian Church, and others. Even the widely recognized main-stream Anglican bishop, N. T. Wright, has recently embraced this view and wrote about it in his book, Surprised By Hope. The belief that the dead are unconscious was not invented by, nor was it ever unique to, The Way Int'l.
Even the widely recognized main-stream Anglican bishop, N. T. Wright, has recently embraced this view and wrote about it in his book, Surprised By Hope. The belief that the dead are unconscious was not invented by, nor was it ever unique to, The Way Int'l.
Just a point here. . . . . if you haven't read Surprised by Hope. . . . I highly recommend it. . . . but NT Wright's vision of what happens after death is not really like TWI's. It could be considered rest or sleep if you must. . . . compared to bodily life. . . . but his is much more complex understanding. Here he says he doesn't think we will be unconscious.
I wrote a big book called "The Resurrection of the Son of God" (2003), and I have another one, smaller and more popular level, called "Surprised by Hope," coming out soon. Yes, of course I believe in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in life AFTER 'life after death' -- i.e. bodily resurrection following a period of being bodily dead. For that to happen, as all C1 Jews and Christians knew, meant that between bodily death and bodily resurrection there would be a period of 'life after death' in a disembodied state, for which e.g. Wisdom 3 uses the language of 'soul'. John Polkinghorne, that great scientist-turned-theologian, says somewhere that God will download our software onto his hardware until he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves.
All cultures, ancient as well as modern, have been more or less familiar with the fact (as I take it to be -- lots of empirical and cross-cultural evidence) that people we love who have died (sometimes when we don't even know yet that they have died) can and do appear to us.
C.S. Lewis, famously, appeared like that to J.B. Phillips. I have a friend whose daughter was murdered, and her fiance a thousand miles away received a totally unexpected 'visit' from her before he'd heard the news. And so on.
For many people, this is a hint, a nudge, that there is indeed 'something beyond'. But for Christians such experiences shouldn't be the decisive factor. And, after all, the genuine Christian hope -- of the whole world remade, reborn (Romans 8, Revelation 21, etc etc) -- indicates that God is passionately interested in THIS world, this cosmos of space, time and matter which he is redeeming, rather than encouraging us to discount it in pursuit of a nebulous afterlife which is as nothing compared to what we're promised after that again.
Easter is the key to it all. And don't be fobbed off by those who say that we can't believe in it now that we know about modern science etc. Face it: Homer, Aeschylus, Pliny and the rest all 'knew' that dead people don't rise. We didn't need Galileo or Descartes or Voltaire or Darwin to teach us that. What matters is belief in the creator God who has promised to set the world right in the end -- and has begun to do it by raising Jesus from the dead.
now.. as far as "are you still searching for the truth"..
I found it once. No, not in way days..
stone, cold sober, I looked it in the face for about .95 seconds.. and it nearly burned my skin off.. funny, it didn't really hurt..
what if you found EVERYTHING you believed to be totally WRONG..
Interesting. Is that what was revealed to you? That everything you believed was wrong?
From a philosophical perspective, one might say that the negation or correction of an error (or errors) does not really yield a positive. It yields a neutral, i.e. zero.
It would seem to me that the revelation of a "real" truth results in a positive.
Interesting. Is that what was revealed to you? That everything you believed was wrong?
From a philosophical perspective, one might say that the negation or correction of an error (or errors) does not really yield a positive. It yields a neutral, i.e. zero.
It would seem to me that the revelation of a "real" truth results in a positive.
I'm just thinking out loud.
personally, I don't see what is wrong with "zero". Its as good an integer, as any other..
I've seen other people go through the same thing and come out believing that there is no God.. I can't exactly say the same. I just can't define Him or Her or What in my or anyone else's terms any more.. nor do I feel an inclination to do so..
I've seen other people go through the same thing and come out believing that there is no God.. I can't exactly say the same. I just can't define Him or Her or What in my or anyone else's terms any more.. nor do I feel an inclination to do so..
I guess that depends somewhat on the direction one's life takes. I didn't give God much thought until recently, but at this point in my life I want to "get right with God" (to quote Lucinda Williams).
I don't know that I'm looking for "the truth" but I found myself missing the "fellowship" with other believers I enjoyed in the cult.
After I left twi, I NEVER missed the "fellowship"...most of the twigs that I attended were full of half wits, wannabes and parasites...people I never would have hung out with otherwise...miss it?...sure, just like I miss a millstone around my neck.
searching for the truth?...I certainly don't need some religious nutcase sharing his/her necro-destiny with me. We live and we die. I have no control over "spiritual matters"...If there's a God, that's his thing...not mine...I'm too busy trying to pay my bills and keep the trains running on time in my world.
We live and we die. I have no control over "spiritual matters"...If there's a God, that's his thing...not mine...I'm too busy trying to pay my bills and keep the trains running on time in my world.
Fsking aye...
The atheists say.. "what makes us so arrogant to think that we should live forever..." and I agree and I've gotten more peace from that than all the born again second coming live forever in heaven jive that Christanity has taught me. I'm just fine with dying and being dead.
I certainly don't need some religious nutcase sharing his/her necro-destiny with me. We live and we die. I have no control over "spiritual matters"...If there's a God, that's his thing...not mine...I'm too busy trying to pay my bills and keep the trains running on time in my world.
Necro-destiny? LOL Did you coin that term?
Anyway, it appears that there are a few agnostics, atheists and non-believers among you ex-Wayers. Interesting. My ex-Way friend still clings to all the tired Way doctrine she absorbed over 25 years.
Anyway, it appears that there are a few agnostics, atheists and non-believers among you ex-Wayers. Interesting.
Yes we are.
My ex-Way friend still clings to all the tired Way doctrine she absorbed over 25 years.
In the last several months several ex-Way folks that I had not seen or heard from in 20 years made contact with me. One is still with TWI, although she claims that she doesn't believe everything that they teach and several others associate with offshoots. A pattern that I have noticed (not only with these folks but with other offshooters) is that they are all insisting that they have rejected anything "off the Word" that was taught in TWI, and retained what was "truth". They all insist that they have found the perfect balance of what to reject and what to retain, and are just as obnoxious about it as any dyed-in-the-wool wayfer ever was.
One of the problems that we ex-wayfers have to deal with is that any actual biblical studying or "research" that we do is going to be tainted with Waythink assumptions unless we take a lot of time and effort to throw out the bathwater, the baby, the tub, gut the bathroom and burn down the house, including that bony fish. So much of our research in TWI was based on Wierwille's faulty assumptions; we looked for things to fit with what we had been taught before, we based interpretations on phony translations of Greek & Hebrew words, we accepted the existence of texts that nobody had ever seen, and wove all of these things into our subconscious and into our basic premises so that our conclusions were bound to be skewed.
I know that I like the freedom I now have to just appreciate anyone who is a Christian and loves God. I no longer feel so limited in my friendships.
I have met some wonderfully wise ladies that have never heard of twi.
I'm no longer searching for perfection defined by unreasonable, unkind and unstable people.
Hi Crystalclearblue, It's wonderful that you can appreciate anyone who is a Christian and loves God but can you appreciate anyone who may not be a Christian? There are a lot of wonderful people out there who aren't Christians. Why limit yourself? Enjoy the day!
A pattern that I have noticed (not only with these folks but with other offshooters) is that they are all insisting that they have rejected anything "off the Word" that was taught in TWI, and retained what was "truth". They all insist that they have found the perfect balance of what to reject and what to retain, and are just as obnoxious about it as any dyed-in-the-wool wayfer ever was.
In fairness to my friend, she does recognize that many of the things she was taught at TWI are faulty or misguided. She sees herself as being in a "transitional phase" in terms of her beliefs but says that it's hard to reject beliefs that have been ingrained into her for so long. And I can understand that.
However, one frustrating aspect of trying to help her is that she still insists that the Christian Holy Bible is perfect, that the Bible never contradicts itself and posesses a Bullinger-like "mathematical precision."
How does one deal with that?
One of the problems that we ex-wayfers have to deal with is that any actual biblical studying or "research" that we do is going to be tainted with Waythink assumptions unless we take a lot of time and effort to throw out the bathwater, the baby, the tub, gut the bathroom and burn down the house, including that bony fish. So much of our research in TWI was based on Wierwille's faulty assumptions; we looked for things to fit with what we had been taught before, we based interpretations on phony translations of Greek & Hebrew words, we accepted the existence of texts that nobody had ever seen, and wove all of these things into our subconscious and into our basic premises so that our conclusions were bound to be skewed.
One advantage that I have is that I have never read the Bible before and was taught very little of it, even after nine years of Catholic catechism. There's a very liberating aspect to reading the Bible for the first time as a married, educated, middle-aged adult with kids. I see things that I could not possibly have understood as an adolescent or even as young college student.
I have to say, though, that it's very useful to have the tools that my friend introduced me to: interlinear/parallel reading, Strong's concordance, various commentaries, etc. Plus, the online versions that can be found at BibleGateway.com and Biblos.com make researching the Bible so much easier.
In fairness to my friend, she does recognize that many of the things she was taught at TWI are faulty or misguided. She sees herself as being in a "transitional phase" in terms of her beliefs but says that it's hard to reject beliefs that have been ingrained into her for so long. And I can understand that.
I dealt with that by embracing spiritual agnosticism. it gives me plenty of time and space to accept the fact that I don't know a damned thing and that spiritual truth may exist but I might never find it but I can examine, question, challenge or consider whatever I want, whenever I want without having to make up my mind about anything.
some would label that being spiritually tepid or say I'm sitting on a fence, but frankly I don't really care.
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soul searcher
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. -- Bertrand Russell British author, mathematician, & philoso
Ham
Congratulations..
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Tzaia
STF's beliefs are more along the lines of the Jewish faith that evolved over time, which is a bodily resurrection when a messiah comes. That is why Jews don't cremate.
It's all pure speculation anyway - eternal life - when it happens. No one knows.
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Mark Clarke
There have been Christian groups that have embraced this belief as well. If you're interested, Google "conditional immortality" or specific groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, the Church of God Abrahamic Faith, Restoration Fellowship, Advent Christian Church, and others. Even the widely recognized main-stream Anglican bishop, N. T. Wright, has recently embraced this view and wrote about it in his book, Surprised By Hope. The belief that the dead are unconscious was not invented by, nor was it ever unique to, The Way Int'l.
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geisha779
Just a point here. . . . . if you haven't read Surprised by Hope. . . . I highly recommend it. . . . but NT Wright's vision of what happens after death is not really like TWI's. It could be considered rest or sleep if you must. . . . compared to bodily life. . . . but his is much more complex understanding. Here he says he doesn't think we will be unconscious.
. .. . just wanted to clarify this a bit.
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Here is another little blurb where he speaks of his book: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/nicholas_t_wright/2007/10/whispers_of_hope_from_the_dead.html
I wrote a big book called "The Resurrection of the Son of God" (2003), and I have another one, smaller and more popular level, called "Surprised by Hope," coming out soon. Yes, of course I believe in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in life AFTER 'life after death' -- i.e. bodily resurrection following a period of being bodily dead. For that to happen, as all C1 Jews and Christians knew, meant that between bodily death and bodily resurrection there would be a period of 'life after death' in a disembodied state, for which e.g. Wisdom 3 uses the language of 'soul'. John Polkinghorne, that great scientist-turned-theologian, says somewhere that God will download our software onto his hardware until he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves.
All cultures, ancient as well as modern, have been more or less familiar with the fact (as I take it to be -- lots of empirical and cross-cultural evidence) that people we love who have died (sometimes when we don't even know yet that they have died) can and do appear to us.
C.S. Lewis, famously, appeared like that to J.B. Phillips. I have a friend whose daughter was murdered, and her fiance a thousand miles away received a totally unexpected 'visit' from her before he'd heard the news. And so on.
For many people, this is a hint, a nudge, that there is indeed 'something beyond'. But for Christians such experiences shouldn't be the decisive factor. And, after all, the genuine Christian hope -- of the whole world remade, reborn (Romans 8, Revelation 21, etc etc) -- indicates that God is passionately interested in THIS world, this cosmos of space, time and matter which he is redeeming, rather than encouraging us to discount it in pursuit of a nebulous afterlife which is as nothing compared to what we're promised after that again.
Easter is the key to it all. And don't be fobbed off by those who say that we can't believe in it now that we know about modern science etc. Face it: Homer, Aeschylus, Pliny and the rest all 'knew' that dead people don't rise. We didn't need Galileo or Descartes or Voltaire or Darwin to teach us that. What matters is belief in the creator God who has promised to set the world right in the end -- and has begun to do it by raising Jesus from the dead.
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soul searcher
Interesting. Is that what was revealed to you? That everything you believed was wrong?
From a philosophical perspective, one might say that the negation or correction of an error (or errors) does not really yield a positive. It yields a neutral, i.e. zero.
It would seem to me that the revelation of a "real" truth results in a positive.
I'm just thinking out loud.
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Bolshevik
crud, I didn't know it was missing!? . . . where did you see it last?
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Ham
personally, I don't see what is wrong with "zero". Its as good an integer, as any other..
I've seen other people go through the same thing and come out believing that there is no God.. I can't exactly say the same. I just can't define Him or Her or What in my or anyone else's terms any more.. nor do I feel an inclination to do so..
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soul searcher
I guess that depends somewhat on the direction one's life takes. I didn't give God much thought until recently, but at this point in my life I want to "get right with God" (to quote Lucinda Williams).
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Ham
at this point.. at least for me this is a given.. non negotiable..
whatever He, She, or Whatever he/she/it happens to be..
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potato
another request for a good working definition of "truth" so I'll know it if I ever run across it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
After I left twi, I NEVER missed the "fellowship"...most of the twigs that I attended were full of half wits, wannabes and parasites...people I never would have hung out with otherwise...miss it?...sure, just like I miss a millstone around my neck.
searching for the truth?...I certainly don't need some religious nutcase sharing his/her necro-destiny with me. We live and we die. I have no control over "spiritual matters"...If there's a God, that's his thing...not mine...I'm too busy trying to pay my bills and keep the trains running on time in my world.
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Jim
Fsking aye...
The atheists say.. "what makes us so arrogant to think that we should live forever..." and I agree and I've gotten more peace from that than all the born again second coming live forever in heaven jive that Christanity has taught me. I'm just fine with dying and being dead.
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frank123lol
It is a personal "thing'.Not a group thing,I like others questioned everything,Zero start?Not really.
Everything you are up to this point is a collection of what you have learned,Zepplin song
if you do not like the road you are on,change direction.As a friend of mine might say >There are absolutes."
i just decided to accept it.Remember Woodstock song?We are stardust.Peace...
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soul searcher
Necro-destiny? LOL Did you coin that term?
Anyway, it appears that there are a few agnostics, atheists and non-believers among you ex-Wayers. Interesting. My ex-Way friend still clings to all the tired Way doctrine she absorbed over 25 years.
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taxicab
No. I'm busy enjoying life.
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waysider
Is that profitable?
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taxicab
It's an "opportunity" to be "profitable".
I'm actually an agnostic. I don't know and I know that I don't know and I know that I'm fine not knowing.
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Rejoice
That just sums up why these offshoots are problematic---the leadership character eventually seems to disintegrate to this.
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waysider
Maybe we've just been wasting our time, trying to climb
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Oakspear
One of the problems that we ex-wayfers have to deal with is that any actual biblical studying or "research" that we do is going to be tainted with Waythink assumptions unless we take a lot of time and effort to throw out the bathwater, the baby, the tub, gut the bathroom and burn down the house, including that bony fish. So much of our research in TWI was based on Wierwille's faulty assumptions; we looked for things to fit with what we had been taught before, we based interpretations on phony translations of Greek & Hebrew words, we accepted the existence of texts that nobody had ever seen, and wove all of these things into our subconscious and into our basic premises so that our conclusions were bound to be skewed.
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taxicab
Hi Crystalclearblue, It's wonderful that you can appreciate anyone who is a Christian and loves God but can you appreciate anyone who may not be a Christian? There are a lot of wonderful people out there who aren't Christians. Why limit yourself? Enjoy the day!
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soul searcher
In fairness to my friend, she does recognize that many of the things she was taught at TWI are faulty or misguided. She sees herself as being in a "transitional phase" in terms of her beliefs but says that it's hard to reject beliefs that have been ingrained into her for so long. And I can understand that.
However, one frustrating aspect of trying to help her is that she still insists that the Christian Holy Bible is perfect, that the Bible never contradicts itself and posesses a Bullinger-like "mathematical precision."
How does one deal with that?
One advantage that I have is that I have never read the Bible before and was taught very little of it, even after nine years of Catholic catechism. There's a very liberating aspect to reading the Bible for the first time as a married, educated, middle-aged adult with kids. I see things that I could not possibly have understood as an adolescent or even as young college student.
I have to say, though, that it's very useful to have the tools that my friend introduced me to: interlinear/parallel reading, Strong's concordance, various commentaries, etc. Plus, the online versions that can be found at BibleGateway.com and Biblos.com make researching the Bible so much easier.
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potato
I dealt with that by embracing spiritual agnosticism. it gives me plenty of time and space to accept the fact that I don't know a damned thing and that spiritual truth may exist but I might never find it but I can examine, question, challenge or consider whatever I want, whenever I want without having to make up my mind about anything.
some would label that being spiritually tepid or say I'm sitting on a fence, but frankly I don't really care.
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waysider
Sometimes "sitting on the fence" can offer the best seat in the house.
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