Back in 1989-92, the three corps coordinators that I remember:
1) S. Strezp3k......Gunnison corps program
2) W. Cl@pp.........Indiana campus program
3) Ed Horn3y........hq corps program
Martindale continued to be the Corps Director.
But, yes......Rupp has waited a long time being mr. yes-man. He's paid his dues as a card-carrying twi loyalist. He's purported the party line like a good soldier for some 25 years. He's helped to "dig the graves of many" and covered the stench of twi. With men like Pl@tig and Greene and M@gnelli out of the running, Rupp has only to abide his time.
Hopefully, he awaits......not wanting to wait ANOTHER ten years.
Ok, but at ROA '89, when everybody who was left were getting all the vacant titles,
and the Regions were now small enough to be made West, Central, and East
(Instead of Northeast, SouthEast....),
there was talk- serious talk- that Rupp would be IN CHARGE of the Corps from then on.
Someone even eavesdropped on me when I discussed it with someone else, and
interrupted the discussion saying something to the effect that Rupp had grown a lot
in the past year and was now ready for it.
I don't know what happened after the talk- maybe someone with more "pull" wanted it
and Rupp was made an assistant, the first step in his climb up the ladder.
With men like Pl@tig and Greene and M@gnelli out of the running, Rupp has only to abide his time.
Okay... fill me in here... why are men like Platig, Greene, and Magnelli out of the running? Aren't they all still in high-ish positions within the walls of Zion?
Just in general, after ten years of Rivenbark, does anyone here know (I'm sort of sure someone would) about how aware the average Way follower IS concerning Martindale's indiscretions, or Weirwille's. Do you think that most/many/ few of them know what happened in the past?
I've read that VPW's books are still published, although edited posthumously. Are Martindale's book(s) seen the same way or are they stuffed in a corner out of sight, out of mind?
Before I stumbled upon GreaseSpot, my earlier searches had led me to believe that the Way dissolved when Martindale's actions were exposed,... lawsuit, etc. I know you guys consider these subjects "old hat"
I guess my greatest curiosity lies in wondering if a lot of the present Way leadership knows better and sticks with RR, or as some of you have suggested they are waiting for the critter to expire. And how does this contrast to the present Way followers? Do they know better and still follow anyways (THAT does seem less likely). How do you think those who have been there for ten years or more have reconciled all the contradictions to the point where they believe that RR is the "Man" of God for our world today......
One last thing. About what percentage of people would you estimate are blissfully content with the current Way, and think it's "just perfect" the way it is?
(if you've typed something long before about this, and you want to point me toward an older thread, I'll take a look at it as well)
Okay... fill me in here... why are men like Platig, Greene, and Magnelli out of the running? Aren't they all still in high-ish positions within the walls of Zion?
Let me first say.....I have no "insider knowledge" regarding this situation.
But having observed twi for 24 years:
1) Men who are sent or discarded to field assignments are NOT selected to trustee (director) positions. The grooming of a vice-president or president is FULL FRONTAL EXPOSURE CONSISTENTLY AT HQ before any such decision is final. All president-elects were in lockstep with the current president.
2) As far as I know, the three men are serving field assignments. From what was posted on Pl@tig, he was not always a yes-man to rubberstamp Rosie's policies. Therefore, he was sent packing to a field position. Greene went to Atlanta after serving years as the Trunk Coordinator. Plus, I tend to believe that Greene's wife is a factor in this. And, isn't Magn3lli on the field? Same deal....distancing.
3) Promotions are all about grooming and favoritism. Rosie is grooming someone who will "take care of her emeritus situation" when she retires. Partiality goes both ways.
4) The grooming process MUST involve selecting someone who is AN INSIDER. Rupp has been at hq since 1996 after serving as Region Coordinator in Texas. And, he's been serving as one of the vice-presidents for how many years now? If he can "stand the heat in the kitchen".....then he will probably stay. And, odds are in favor of him getting the Big Chair.
Just in general, after ten years of Rivenbark, does anyone here know (I'm sort of sure someone would) about how aware the average Way follower IS concerning Martindale's indiscretions, or Weirwille's. Do you think that most/many/ few of them know what happened in the past?
I've read that VPW's books are still published, although edited posthumously. Are Martindale's book(s) seen the same way or are they stuffed in a corner out of sight, out of mind?
The average follower of the way international is fully capable of knowing the details of l craig martindale's
"indiscretions" and victor paul weirwille's "indiscretions." (The rapes, the molestations, the sexual
harrassments, etc.) They're relatively easy to find online.
Many of the remaining people (of which there are not so many) have made the deliberate decision to
refuse to know those "indiscretions." That's less of a surprise when you realize some people who are
OUT refuse to admit even 1/2 the things vpw did.
Many of the remaining people, however, are well aware of both. Not for nothing did lcm insist people
avoid the internet completely, and finally agree they can go online BRIEFLY then remain offline.
He was trying to keep twi'ers in the dark. Mind you, this was at the same time their Public Relations
mouthpiece was saying they keep everyone informed on everything, "from soup to nuts."
If you believe that one, I have this bridge in Brooklyn that's for sale cheap....
Keep in mind that there's a gap between the numbers of people who admit lcm did ANYTHING
(he admitted to a ONE-TIME "indiscretion" which some people believe but they refuse to believe
any of the other business) and the numbers of people who admit vpw did ANYTHING.
lcm was made to be twi's fall guy by Donna and Rosalie. Despite Rosalie admitting she was
complicit in his deeds for years, twi'ers either don't believe that or don't care- they accept
the version of reality spoon-fed to them by twi. However, they're STILL trying to whitewash
the evil deeds of victor paul wierwille- serial rapist, molester, embezzler, drunkard,
plagiarist, simonist, and all-around abuser of the people for whom Christ died.
I don't have any kind of estimates or educated guesses as to percentages, numbers, or
even ballpark figures. Almost all of them COULD know, a minority know AND BELIEVE it
and are waiting for the right time to leave twi or are higher up the ladder than peons
and hope to get a cushy, make-work job out of it.
In general, lcm isn't mentioned much and "his" classes and materials are mentioned as little
as necessary. He was the writer of a book (which accompanied his class of the same)
on "Rise and Expansion of the First Century Church." It's not without irony that one can note
that this is the same man who said all movements of God's people accompanies growth in numbers
(in his class and book) while his term as twi President was one where membership numbers dropped
eventually to 1/10 of what it was when he took the office. He oversaw the biggest fall and
contraction in twi history.
Before I stumbled upon GreaseSpot, my earlier searches had led me to believe that the Way dissolved when Martindale's actions were exposed,... lawsuit, etc. I know you guys consider these subjects "old hat"
the way international hemorrhaged yet more members when lcm was caught ADMITTING to committing crimes
and abusing his office. There's still a few thousand (possibly as many as 3000 including minors)
who claim membership/ call themselves "followers". However, the exposing of his evil deeds and vpw's
evil deeds are what led to almost all the twi people leaving who did leave, to a small degree or to a
large degree (small degrees in the 1980s, large degrees after that.)
twi has not TECHNICALLY dissolved. However, its membership numbers are miniscule on the world stage
on which they always considered themselves major players.
We may consider this "old hat", but some of us stick around so that new arrivals can ask and
get useful answers. (That and play games in the Reading Room.)
I guess my greatest curiosity lies in wondering if a lot of the present Way leadership knows better and sticks with RR, or as some of you have suggested they are waiting for the critter to expire. And how does this contrast to the present Way followers? Do they know better and still follow anyways (THAT does seem less likely). How do you think those who have been there for ten years or more have reconciled all the contradictions to the point where they believe that RR is the "Man" of God for our world today......
One last thing. About what percentage of people would you estimate are blissfully content with the current Way, and think it's "just perfect" the way it is?
(if you've typed something long before about this, and you want to point me toward an older thread, I'll take a look at it as well)
I'd say that the smallest minority is aware, believes rosalie rivenbark, donna martindale, loy craig martindale,
victor paul wierwille and others were the perpetrators of criminal actions against God's people.
Those few really only care about trying to run the show. A few youngsters ignore decades of previous
youngsters who tried to fix twi and think THEY can succeed where decades of others failed.
(They will learn by experience how futile that is.)
The majority of the few still in twi are willing to accept whatever twi says, and swallow any lie
no matter how ridiculous, because they're terrified of facing the rest of the world and possibly
admit they spent 10,20,30,40 years in error. (There's even those out of twi who think the same.)
There is a great deal of denial, and a resignation that "there's nothing better out there"
(which, of course, is a lie, but an ACCEPTED lie.)
Then again, there's a few people out there who stoked the young victor paul wierwille II's ego and
have him thinking he will be some great leader of God's people and that his namesake was one,
as well. The capability for twi and ex-twi splinters to exercise massive denial is fascinating.
Just in general, after ten years of Rivenbark, does anyone here know (I'm sort of sure someone would) about how aware the average Way follower IS concerning Martindale's indiscretions, or Weirwille's. Do you think that most/many/ few of them know what happened in the past?
In general, I think they don't know or don't care. Maybe they are too afraid to consider what kind of reality all that implies..
Nor do they seem to know or care about rosie's complicity in martindale's situation- that she knew of his "indiscretions" years before they came to light in the lawsuit..
Maybe they are too afraid to consider what kind of reality all that implies..
I think this plays a major role in denial of any sort. I know it did for me before I came to terms with the issues I faced leading up to my decision to quit the research team. Breaking denial requires change and sometimes that means EXTENSIVE changes in one's life. Plus I had to admit I'd been fooled, I'd kept my head in the sand, I had been duped due to my ignorance, etc. That's a bitter pill to swallow...
Unless and until a person faces an issue that affects them PERSONALLY so that they come to a cross roads and have to choose to do something to eleviate the pain they face, it may not be possible for them to break away.
For instance, I remember a conversation I had in 1986 with someone I worked with who now is one of the top VPs and teaches part of the new class at HQ. I thought he was a good guy and would be willing to call a spade a spade. So when I tried to explain why I was resigning from research, why I thought LCM had MAJOR problems, that VP's research had holes in it (he knew this already), etc., he looked at me as if I were possessed but at least was polite about it. He said, "I need some time to think about this." He ended up staying at HQ and now he's rewarded with his big job - apparently nothing happened that affected him very personally so all I can imagine is that he must have rationalized the abuses of VPW and LCM somehow. Humans have convenient ways of doing that. I wonder whether he ever thinks about that conversation...maybe he's reading this now...I hold him partly responsible for perpetuating the cult - he could have opted out, he was smart, he was kind-hearted. Now I think he's let himself be blinded and he has been used.
Sometimes some people are willing to put up with a lot of human failures, crimes, and abuses if they think what they're teaching - the doctrine - is THE TRUTH. In my view, there is no "Truth" worth that price.
I think this plays a major role in denial of any sort. I know it did for me before I came to terms with the issues I faced leading up to my decision to quit the research team. Breaking denial requires change and sometimes that means EXTENSIVE changes in one's life. Plus I had to admit I'd been fooled, I'd kept my head in the sand, I had been duped due to my ignorance, etc. That's a bitter pill to swallow...
Unless and until a person faces an issue that affects them PERSONALLY so that they come to a cross roads and have to choose to do something to eleviate the pain they face, it may not be possible for them to break away.
For instance, I remember a conversation I had in 1986 with someone I worked with who now is one of the top VPs and teaches part of the new class at HQ. I thought he was a good guy and would be willing to call a spade a spade. So when I tried to explain why I was resigning from research, why I thought LCM had MAJOR problems, that VP's research had holes in it (he knew this already), etc., he looked at me as if I were possessed but at least was polite about it. He said, "I need some time to think about this." He ended up staying at HQ and now he's rewarded with his big job - apparently nothing happened that affected him very personally so all I can imagine is that he must have rationalized the abuses of VPW and LCM somehow. Humans have convenient ways of doing that. I wonder whether he ever thinks about that conversation...maybe he's reading this now...I hold him partly responsible for perpetuating the cult - he could have opted out, he was smart, he was kind-hearted. Now I think he's let himself be blinded and he has been used.
Sometimes some people are willing to put up with a lot of human failures, crimes, and abuses if they think what they're teaching - the doctrine - is THE TRUTH. In my view, there is no "Truth" worth that price.
So true, penworks.........thanks.
Until or unless one is involved PERSONALLY.....the twi-staffer or follower is likely to brush it aside or rationalize it away. Wierwille was big on compartmentalizing one's life.......tucking things away in a lockbox.
If a tornado hits the next neighborhood, its an inconvenience........BUT if the tornado hits YOUR HOUSE, its a disaster!!! Same goes for twi's evil. Until you are confronted with it head-on, the easiest approach is to "drive around the obstacles lying in the street" and avoid it.
The wierwille doctrine poisoned the twi well. Peter J. W@de, vp's right-hand man, left in 1975, my 4th corps limb coordinator John Cl@y left in 1978, other corps leaders were splitting out in 1979-81, clergy and corps.......Ambassador One pilot, John R@ce, left around 1980, bodyguards were exiting, more much more,......ALL OF THIS BEFORE MARTINDALE BECAME PRESIDENT.
I think that most of the on-the-field folks who still follow twi's lead do so more out of sense of loyalty, and a feeling of "there is nothing else out there" held over from the early years, than out of any genuine enjoyment of their lifestyle. That being said, they cannot, will not, dare not look too closely at the sins of their leadership or their house of cards "belief and practice" system would crumble.
I know I literally felt like someone pulled the ground out from under my feet when I finally realized that all those "uncomfortable thoughts" and "doubtful feelings" I had been having about twi for YEARS were there for a reason, and not just a result of my "unbelief"... I walked around in a daze for weeks! Even though I knew it was all the truth, I was just stunned. My whole adult life, 19 years, had been based on a flat-out lie. And that meant not only that someone tricked me, but that I was foolish enough to fall for it... for YEARS. You sure feel way beyond stupid when that little nugget of truth hits you. And it's very hard to face. And many people will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid facing that kind of truth. They prefer to stay in their comfort zone.
Thanks to those of you that have answered. I'm really glad I found this site and you guys here.
I'll tell you why.
My dad died last Sept 28th. He only talked to me a few times about the Way. Well after he died I considered looking into taking their class. I mean my dad did and I figured "Hey I'm not some dumb kid now, and, if it was good enough for him,..." yanno? That in spite of him telling me to stay away from the Way, it wasn't worth my time.
But curiosity is a powerful thing for a person that's lost nearly everyone important to her. The last time I looked on the net about the Way had been back in 2001, before I went into the Marines There hadn't been much on the net back then that I found, besides I was on dial up and it took forever and I never found Waydale or this place etc and all indications were that the Way had gone toes up Search engines weren't as good back then and unknown to me my dad knew how to block certain content and I didn't have my own computer back then so the amount of time I could spend was pretty limited, plus my mom discouraged us kids from using the computer for much beyond e-mail and "Mom-approved" activities. I also was finishing up two Bachelors degrees back then and just didn't have much time to look into it, or I would have probably have found more out.
Well I ran into GS in January (this year). slightly after the Way had returned my letter saying I couldn't buy their book that I HAD BEEN Interested in. It was nicely written but set an alarm off in my head,... I mean who in this world doesn't want to make a buck? right?
Anyways, everything I have searched out since validates what you guys have said about the Way. Of course I had to check that out, no offense, but I don't think I'll be taking their class.
Well I ran into GS in January (this year). slightly after the Way had returned my letter saying I couldn't buy their book that I HAD BEEN Interested in. It was nicely written but set an alarm off in my head,... I mean who in this world doesn't want to make a buck? right?
Anyways, everything I have searched out since validates what you guys have said about the Way. Of course I had to check that out, no offense, but I don't think I'll be taking their class.
For an "outreach ministry" the Way sure is "selective", eh?
I think I've mentioned this before, but about 3 years ago I was curious as to how twi was doing here in Minney-soda so I called New Knoxville. All I wanted was info if there was a local twig (no - - I wasn't interested in attending, just interested if there was still any in my area). The person there at the headquarters switchboard would give me NO info on the state/ area/ etc., she said they'd pass on my request to the area leader who would get back to me. 2 or 3 weeks later I got a letter (snail-mail) from the "area leader" that said a whole lot of nothing.
No info about anything in my area, but a lot about what twi (prevailing some-such-BS-over-the-world) was doing with no reference to any of my questions. I called headquarters with a specific request. I got an ambiguous reply. Then I got a form letter from someone that I could've been told about in the initial phone call (but wasn't). Does "peeling an onion's layers" come to mind to you like it does to me?? If there is another group out there who has a greater DISCONNECT with the "audience" they seek, I surely don't know who it could be. Well - - - I take that last sentence back. CES/STFI is right up there too.
Save your money, Gen. Buy something worthwhile for yourself rather than paying for worthless words from a demented outfit.
But curiosity is a powerful thing for a person that's lost nearly everyone important to her. The last time I looked on the net about the Way had been back in 2001, before I went into the Marines There hadn't been much on the net back then that I found, besides I was on dial up and it took forever and I never found Waydale or this place etc and all indications were that the Way had gone toes up Search engines weren't as good back then and unknown to me my dad knew how to block certain content and I didn't have my own computer back then so the amount of time I could spend was pretty limited, plus my mom discouraged us kids from using the computer for much beyond e-mail and "Mom-approved" activities. I also was finishing up two Bachelors degrees back then and just didn't have much time to look into it, or I would have probably have found more out.
Well I ran into GS in January (this year). slightly after the Way had returned my letter saying I couldn't buy their book that I HAD BEEN Interested in. It was nicely written but set an alarm off in my head,... I mean who in this world doesn't want to make a buck? right?
. . .
Back then I wasn't allowed to look outside The Way. Hard to focus on life and school with a countrywide network of inbreds always wondering what you're doing right now. Thought about the marines, thought I'd go face the dragon (more of a skink really), waste of time.
Clear your mind of anything way, never think of them again.
I think that most of the on-the-field folks who still follow twi's lead do so more out of sense of loyalty, and a feeling of "there is nothing else out there" held over from the early years, than out of any genuine enjoyment of their lifestyle. That being said, they cannot, will not, dare not look too closely at the sins of their leadership or their house of cards "belief and practice" system would crumble.
Last September, a long-standing corps couple with teenagers-in-tow came to visit us. Fifteen years had passed since we'd seen them.....mid-90's, when martindale was near his apex of re-making the foundational, intermediate, and advanced The Way of Abundance and Power classes.
Throughout the afternoon, our friends never once tried to extol their twi involvement or encourage us to come back. In fact, they seemed more eager to listen to our journey since exiting twi, our family's successes and experiences. Far more than shielding this "we've got all the answers"......they seemed to be baby-stepping towards the exit door. Not quite ready to ask direct questions, but definitely checking us out to see that the adversary had not grease-spotted us.
Those still ensnared with twi doctrine will probably not find any Rivenbark sins in public view. Rosie is far more subtle than martindale ever was.....and learned those lessons well. After all, she was a school teacher. And, now that she's the "school principal".....she will control the conduct of the students and their curriculum. Her life's quest has brought her to this administrative level. She doesn't have to prove anything to anyone......any more! She will retire on her terms.
Rosalie Fox Rivenbark has removed the "presidential charismatic element" of leadership in twi. She doesn't constitute the teacher of the foundational, intermediate or advanced classes. Other corps leadership have the responsibility of corps meetings. She is The Administrator.....the Chairwoman of the Board. In this position, she has staked out a path of longevity. In all likelihood, Rosalie could easily hold this office for ANOTHER TEN YEARS.
Perhaps it's time for a CRIME report review. Although this is an old thread, I believe it relates to this topic. It might help any innies sitting on the fence...
good point, penworks. it's all so ridiculous. it boggles my unrenewed mind! the power, the sex, etc., at the top of little way world. the gals that got hired to assist MOGs, the homosexual couple who lived with rosie (i'm not talking about any stance on such a lifestyle, just the hypocricy with that horrible purge and ruining people's lives) -- what else? oh there's just too much. seeing donna and rosie together YEARS before the allen lawsuit. not believing my own "senses" eyes lol! donna and craig and donna and M and donna and R. oh cripes.
--
as long as craig and donna could both have their cake and eat it too....
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Ham
Did anybody else hear her acceptance speech?
skyrider
What about her ordination? When the officiating clergy "prophecied" that she had a ministry that would HEAL people....or something to that effect. Is there a ministry of micro-managing for someone
Ham
maybe they transcribed it not so accurately.. "you'll heel people". Some bizarre figure of speech, a noun used as a verb or something.. I think she will remain pres until she is of a condition that
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Tzaia
Oh, but they're so manly [smirk] in their "wait state".
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excathedra
wow, who chose rosie ? stupid god ?
thanks for the info. john rvpp lives in a little world -- but i guess he'll be a big man in that world
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skyrider
Donna chose Rosie............and lcm was sent packing.
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WordWolf
Ok, but at ROA '89, when everybody who was left were getting all the vacant titles,
and the Regions were now small enough to be made West, Central, and East
(Instead of Northeast, SouthEast....),
there was talk- serious talk- that Rupp would be IN CHARGE of the Corps from then on.
Someone even eavesdropped on me when I discussed it with someone else, and
interrupted the discussion saying something to the effect that Rupp had grown a lot
in the past year and was now ready for it.
I don't know what happened after the talk- maybe someone with more "pull" wanted it
and Rupp was made an assistant, the first step in his climb up the ladder.
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excathedra
i must agree, my friend
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TheHighWay
Okay... fill me in here... why are men like Platig, Greene, and Magnelli out of the running? Aren't they all still in high-ish positions within the walls of Zion?
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Gen-2
Just in general, after ten years of Rivenbark, does anyone here know (I'm sort of sure someone would) about how aware the average Way follower IS concerning Martindale's indiscretions, or Weirwille's. Do you think that most/many/ few of them know what happened in the past?
I've read that VPW's books are still published, although edited posthumously. Are Martindale's book(s) seen the same way or are they stuffed in a corner out of sight, out of mind?
Before I stumbled upon GreaseSpot, my earlier searches had led me to believe that the Way dissolved when Martindale's actions were exposed,... lawsuit, etc. I know you guys consider these subjects "old hat"
I guess my greatest curiosity lies in wondering if a lot of the present Way leadership knows better and sticks with RR, or as some of you have suggested they are waiting for the critter to expire. And how does this contrast to the present Way followers? Do they know better and still follow anyways (THAT does seem less likely). How do you think those who have been there for ten years or more have reconciled all the contradictions to the point where they believe that RR is the "Man" of God for our world today......
One last thing. About what percentage of people would you estimate are blissfully content with the current Way, and think it's "just perfect" the way it is?
(if you've typed something long before about this, and you want to point me toward an older thread, I'll take a look at it as well)
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skyrider
Let me first say.....I have no "insider knowledge" regarding this situation.
But having observed twi for 24 years:
1) Men who are sent or discarded to field assignments are NOT selected to trustee (director) positions. The grooming of a vice-president or president is FULL FRONTAL EXPOSURE CONSISTENTLY AT HQ before any such decision is final. All president-elects were in lockstep with the current president.
2) As far as I know, the three men are serving field assignments. From what was posted on Pl@tig, he was not always a yes-man to rubberstamp Rosie's policies. Therefore, he was sent packing to a field position. Greene went to Atlanta after serving years as the Trunk Coordinator. Plus, I tend to believe that Greene's wife is a factor in this. And, isn't Magn3lli on the field? Same deal....distancing.
3) Promotions are all about grooming and favoritism. Rosie is grooming someone who will "take care of her emeritus situation" when she retires. Partiality goes both ways.
4) The grooming process MUST involve selecting someone who is AN INSIDER. Rupp has been at hq since 1996 after serving as Region Coordinator in Texas. And, he's been serving as one of the vice-presidents for how many years now? If he can "stand the heat in the kitchen".....then he will probably stay. And, odds are in favor of him getting the Big Chair.
<_<
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WordWolf
The average follower of the way international is fully capable of knowing the details of l craig martindale's
"indiscretions" and victor paul weirwille's "indiscretions." (The rapes, the molestations, the sexual
harrassments, etc.) They're relatively easy to find online.
Many of the remaining people (of which there are not so many) have made the deliberate decision to
refuse to know those "indiscretions." That's less of a surprise when you realize some people who are
OUT refuse to admit even 1/2 the things vpw did.
Many of the remaining people, however, are well aware of both. Not for nothing did lcm insist people
avoid the internet completely, and finally agree they can go online BRIEFLY then remain offline.
He was trying to keep twi'ers in the dark. Mind you, this was at the same time their Public Relations
mouthpiece was saying they keep everyone informed on everything, "from soup to nuts."
If you believe that one, I have this bridge in Brooklyn that's for sale cheap....
Keep in mind that there's a gap between the numbers of people who admit lcm did ANYTHING
(he admitted to a ONE-TIME "indiscretion" which some people believe but they refuse to believe
any of the other business) and the numbers of people who admit vpw did ANYTHING.
lcm was made to be twi's fall guy by Donna and Rosalie. Despite Rosalie admitting she was
complicit in his deeds for years, twi'ers either don't believe that or don't care- they accept
the version of reality spoon-fed to them by twi. However, they're STILL trying to whitewash
the evil deeds of victor paul wierwille- serial rapist, molester, embezzler, drunkard,
plagiarist, simonist, and all-around abuser of the people for whom Christ died.
I don't have any kind of estimates or educated guesses as to percentages, numbers, or
even ballpark figures. Almost all of them COULD know, a minority know AND BELIEVE it
and are waiting for the right time to leave twi or are higher up the ladder than peons
and hope to get a cushy, make-work job out of it.
In general, lcm isn't mentioned much and "his" classes and materials are mentioned as little
as necessary. He was the writer of a book (which accompanied his class of the same)
on "Rise and Expansion of the First Century Church." It's not without irony that one can note
that this is the same man who said all movements of God's people accompanies growth in numbers
(in his class and book) while his term as twi President was one where membership numbers dropped
eventually to 1/10 of what it was when he took the office. He oversaw the biggest fall and
contraction in twi history.
the way international hemorrhaged yet more members when lcm was caught ADMITTING to committing crimes
and abusing his office. There's still a few thousand (possibly as many as 3000 including minors)
who claim membership/ call themselves "followers". However, the exposing of his evil deeds and vpw's
evil deeds are what led to almost all the twi people leaving who did leave, to a small degree or to a
large degree (small degrees in the 1980s, large degrees after that.)
twi has not TECHNICALLY dissolved. However, its membership numbers are miniscule on the world stage
on which they always considered themselves major players.
We may consider this "old hat", but some of us stick around so that new arrivals can ask and
get useful answers. (That and play games in the Reading Room.)
I'd say that the smallest minority is aware, believes rosalie rivenbark, donna martindale, loy craig martindale,
victor paul wierwille and others were the perpetrators of criminal actions against God's people.
Those few really only care about trying to run the show. A few youngsters ignore decades of previous
youngsters who tried to fix twi and think THEY can succeed where decades of others failed.
(They will learn by experience how futile that is.)
The majority of the few still in twi are willing to accept whatever twi says, and swallow any lie
no matter how ridiculous, because they're terrified of facing the rest of the world and possibly
admit they spent 10,20,30,40 years in error. (There's even those out of twi who think the same.)
There is a great deal of denial, and a resignation that "there's nothing better out there"
(which, of course, is a lie, but an ACCEPTED lie.)
Then again, there's a few people out there who stoked the young victor paul wierwille II's ego and
have him thinking he will be some great leader of God's people and that his namesake was one,
as well. The capability for twi and ex-twi splinters to exercise massive denial is fascinating.
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Ham
In general, I think they don't know or don't care. Maybe they are too afraid to consider what kind of reality all that implies..
Nor do they seem to know or care about rosie's complicity in martindale's situation- that she knew of his "indiscretions" years before they came to light in the lawsuit..
and did little except to encourage his behavior..
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penworks
I think this plays a major role in denial of any sort. I know it did for me before I came to terms with the issues I faced leading up to my decision to quit the research team. Breaking denial requires change and sometimes that means EXTENSIVE changes in one's life. Plus I had to admit I'd been fooled, I'd kept my head in the sand, I had been duped due to my ignorance, etc. That's a bitter pill to swallow...
Unless and until a person faces an issue that affects them PERSONALLY so that they come to a cross roads and have to choose to do something to eleviate the pain they face, it may not be possible for them to break away.
For instance, I remember a conversation I had in 1986 with someone I worked with who now is one of the top VPs and teaches part of the new class at HQ. I thought he was a good guy and would be willing to call a spade a spade. So when I tried to explain why I was resigning from research, why I thought LCM had MAJOR problems, that VP's research had holes in it (he knew this already), etc., he looked at me as if I were possessed but at least was polite about it. He said, "I need some time to think about this." He ended up staying at HQ and now he's rewarded with his big job - apparently nothing happened that affected him very personally so all I can imagine is that he must have rationalized the abuses of VPW and LCM somehow. Humans have convenient ways of doing that. I wonder whether he ever thinks about that conversation...maybe he's reading this now...I hold him partly responsible for perpetuating the cult - he could have opted out, he was smart, he was kind-hearted. Now I think he's let himself be blinded and he has been used.
Sometimes some people are willing to put up with a lot of human failures, crimes, and abuses if they think what they're teaching - the doctrine - is THE TRUTH. In my view, there is no "Truth" worth that price.
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skyrider
So true, penworks.........thanks.
Until or unless one is involved PERSONALLY.....the twi-staffer or follower is likely to brush it aside or rationalize it away. Wierwille was big on compartmentalizing one's life.......tucking things away in a lockbox.
If a tornado hits the next neighborhood, its an inconvenience........BUT if the tornado hits YOUR HOUSE, its a disaster!!! Same goes for twi's evil. Until you are confronted with it head-on, the easiest approach is to "drive around the obstacles lying in the street" and avoid it.
The wierwille doctrine poisoned the twi well. Peter J. W@de, vp's right-hand man, left in 1975, my 4th corps limb coordinator John Cl@y left in 1978, other corps leaders were splitting out in 1979-81, clergy and corps.......Ambassador One pilot, John R@ce, left around 1980, bodyguards were exiting, more much more,......ALL OF THIS BEFORE MARTINDALE BECAME PRESIDENT.
Martindale took over a diseased twi.
<_<
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TheHighWay
I think that most of the on-the-field folks who still follow twi's lead do so more out of sense of loyalty, and a feeling of "there is nothing else out there" held over from the early years, than out of any genuine enjoyment of their lifestyle. That being said, they cannot, will not, dare not look too closely at the sins of their leadership or their house of cards "belief and practice" system would crumble.
I know I literally felt like someone pulled the ground out from under my feet when I finally realized that all those "uncomfortable thoughts" and "doubtful feelings" I had been having about twi for YEARS were there for a reason, and not just a result of my "unbelief"... I walked around in a daze for weeks! Even though I knew it was all the truth, I was just stunned. My whole adult life, 19 years, had been based on a flat-out lie. And that meant not only that someone tricked me, but that I was foolish enough to fall for it... for YEARS. You sure feel way beyond stupid when that little nugget of truth hits you. And it's very hard to face. And many people will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid facing that kind of truth. They prefer to stay in their comfort zone.
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Tzaia
To a "right-fighter," not being right is something to avoid at all cost - even if it means ignoring the facts.
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skyrider
Kinda like the law of inertia.....a body will preserve its velocity and direction so long as no force in its motion's direction acts on it.
Inertia comes from the Latin word, "iners", meaning idle, or lazy....
For far too long, I trusted twi's "research" and "integrity" to INSPECT THE FRUIT AT WIERWILLE'S FARM AND DOORSTEP.
Shame on them for their evil doings. Shame on me for "selling their fruit" that God told me to INSPECT.
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Gen-2
Thanks to those of you that have answered. I'm really glad I found this site and you guys here.
I'll tell you why.
My dad died last Sept 28th. He only talked to me a few times about the Way. Well after he died I considered looking into taking their class. I mean my dad did and I figured "Hey I'm not some dumb kid now, and, if it was good enough for him,..." yanno? That in spite of him telling me to stay away from the Way, it wasn't worth my time.
But curiosity is a powerful thing for a person that's lost nearly everyone important to her. The last time I looked on the net about the Way had been back in 2001, before I went into the Marines There hadn't been much on the net back then that I found, besides I was on dial up and it took forever and I never found Waydale or this place etc and all indications were that the Way had gone toes up Search engines weren't as good back then and unknown to me my dad knew how to block certain content and I didn't have my own computer back then so the amount of time I could spend was pretty limited, plus my mom discouraged us kids from using the computer for much beyond e-mail and "Mom-approved" activities. I also was finishing up two Bachelors degrees back then and just didn't have much time to look into it, or I would have probably have found more out.
Well I ran into GS in January (this year). slightly after the Way had returned my letter saying I couldn't buy their book that I HAD BEEN Interested in. It was nicely written but set an alarm off in my head,... I mean who in this world doesn't want to make a buck? right?
Anyways, everything I have searched out since validates what you guys have said about the Way. Of course I had to check that out, no offense, but I don't think I'll be taking their class.
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dmiller
For an "outreach ministry" the Way sure is "selective", eh?
I think I've mentioned this before, but about 3 years ago I was curious as to how twi was doing here in Minney-soda so I called New Knoxville. All I wanted was info if there was a local twig (no - - I wasn't interested in attending, just interested if there was still any in my area). The person there at the headquarters switchboard would give me NO info on the state/ area/ etc., she said they'd pass on my request to the area leader who would get back to me. 2 or 3 weeks later I got a letter (snail-mail) from the "area leader" that said a whole lot of nothing.
No info about anything in my area, but a lot about what twi (prevailing some-such-BS-over-the-world) was doing with no reference to any of my questions. I called headquarters with a specific request. I got an ambiguous reply. Then I got a form letter from someone that I could've been told about in the initial phone call (but wasn't). Does "peeling an onion's layers" come to mind to you like it does to me?? If there is another group out there who has a greater DISCONNECT with the "audience" they seek, I surely don't know who it could be. Well - - - I take that last sentence back. CES/STFI is right up there too.
Save your money, Gen. Buy something worthwhile for yourself rather than paying for worthless words from a demented outfit.
You'll be glad you did. :)
(edited to add the STFI after CES)
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excathedra
dear gen, i am so very sorry about your dad dying
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Bolshevik
Gen, you should use your helicopter skills to fly over HQ and drop farm animals on them. Make sure to overfeed the animals prior.
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Bolshevik
Back then I wasn't allowed to look outside The Way. Hard to focus on life and school with a countrywide network of inbreds always wondering what you're doing right now. Thought about the marines, thought I'd go face the dragon (more of a skink really), waste of time.
Clear your mind of anything way, never think of them again.
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skyrider
Last September, a long-standing corps couple with teenagers-in-tow came to visit us. Fifteen years had passed since we'd seen them.....mid-90's, when martindale was near his apex of re-making the foundational, intermediate, and advanced The Way of Abundance and Power classes.
Throughout the afternoon, our friends never once tried to extol their twi involvement or encourage us to come back. In fact, they seemed more eager to listen to our journey since exiting twi, our family's successes and experiences. Far more than shielding this "we've got all the answers"......they seemed to be baby-stepping towards the exit door. Not quite ready to ask direct questions, but definitely checking us out to see that the adversary had not grease-spotted us.
Those still ensnared with twi doctrine will probably not find any Rivenbark sins in public view. Rosie is far more subtle than martindale ever was.....and learned those lessons well. After all, she was a school teacher. And, now that she's the "school principal".....she will control the conduct of the students and their curriculum. Her life's quest has brought her to this administrative level. She doesn't have to prove anything to anyone......any more! She will retire on her terms.
Rosalie Fox Rivenbark has removed the "presidential charismatic element" of leadership in twi. She doesn't constitute the teacher of the foundational, intermediate or advanced classes. Other corps leadership have the responsibility of corps meetings. She is The Administrator.....the Chairwoman of the Board. In this position, she has staked out a path of longevity. In all likelihood, Rosalie could easily hold this office for ANOTHER TEN YEARS.
Maybe more......
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penworks
Perhaps it's time for a CRIME report review. Although this is an old thread, I believe it relates to this topic. It might help any innies sitting on the fence...
Lawsuit
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excathedra
good point, penworks. it's all so ridiculous. it boggles my unrenewed mind! the power, the sex, etc., at the top of little way world. the gals that got hired to assist MOGs, the homosexual couple who lived with rosie (i'm not talking about any stance on such a lifestyle, just the hypocricy with that horrible purge and ruining people's lives) -- what else? oh there's just too much. seeing donna and rosie together YEARS before the allen lawsuit. not believing my own "senses" eyes lol! donna and craig and donna and M and donna and R. oh cripes.
--
as long as craig and donna could both have their cake and eat it too....
but then you all know what happened!
ps. i miss old posters and LG died
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