"it has been all over the map.......Personal Prophecy, a God with limited foreknowledge, Momentus"....
Self-initiated and self-perpetuating chaos - I really feel for those who ride this roller coaster.
There seems to be a core group of the ex-Wayfer gang that always manages to bob up to the top after their newest fad fades and wreaks whatever havoc it does.
Momentus is a perfect example of that - the founders and perpe-traitors of that mind-glue are still smiling proudly, having "moved on". Same with Personal Prophecy, etc. etc.
Tape and gum something together, push it, promote it, make a buck or three on it, then jump clear in time to avoid getting too messed up in the inevitable train wreck Scurry away, look for the next thing.
Stepping through the piles of debris of distrust and broken relationships must be tough but I guess you get good at it after the first few times.
He wrote BOOKS about it. Living in the Eye of the Storm was his work.
If he was so feet first into that doctrine and wrong...what else was and is he wrong about? Those waters may run pretty deep and if he is jumping into them with his mouth open...he may just drown.
That doctrine hurt people...and some people died as a result.
Truly, I hope he works through it all, I would rejoice with him. . . .but, maybe, just not spit out on camera as a bible teacher...each leap he takes?
That is not too much to ask.
maybe He ought to listen to Steven Curtis Chapman's song Dive, teehee
My biggest problem with the video is not the content, but with the presenter. He uses this overt enunciation as if he is preaching to idiots. He's done it for decades. Not that I could stomach reading his tomb on the great mystery, but he apparently made a statement to the effect that God could not perfectly tell the future. Well other than shredding the old testament to bits, he elevated himself a more knowing than God!!
He's got brass balls, I'll give him that. But he is still an arrogant pr**k.
In one felt swoop, he brushed me aside about a career I was pursuing and made me feel like an idiot. He'll never get that chance again. I have no time for a kettle that calls the pot black.
The law of believing is the greatest law in the Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only the greatest law in the Word, it is the greatest law in the whole world. Believing works for saint and sinner alike......VPW
"nobody seems to want to deal with his actual message."
Well, let's get down to that for a mo'.
John has liberally extended his gift ofgabto ex-Wayfers over the years, giving them a shot at hearing or reading his realizations and conclusions because he feels an obligation to them - and I get that. Same with me - who am I to deny you the latest and greatest illuminations that I, socks, have come to? You guys always deserve the early beta, that's just how much I love y'all. You're welcome. Here's some more.
The elephant in the room of PFAL Believing that JAL refers to indirectly but obviously if you're a PFAL grad is the FEAR/NEGATIVE believing doctrine - "you know what killed that little boy - it was the FEAR in the LIFE of the HEART of that mother!".....
He refers to that using the superficial example of dogs and bites - obviously a ridiculous reference that has nothing to do with the example in PFAL of "negative believing" where it's taught that a child dies due to the fear of the parent. That's got some sticky to it when you hear it and needs to be addressed in detail and scripturally.
Barking dogs - who gives a crap?
You can't really dance around the major points of PFAL and not pay the band. Anyone who knows the material and the concepts is going to catch what you're referring to.
"The law of attraction" isn't the same as PFAL and the "law of believing". There's similarities but they're not apples and apples IMO.
JAL's doing a powder puff with this. The media drunk couch potatoes that have glommed onto the latest feel-good self-help craze wrapped in Christian parchment or whatever, may be challenged by what he's saying but all I can think is - yeah. So what? Anything I can really chew on? No? Thanks anyway.
I can only assume that there's an audience for this that will hoot and holler for more but c'mon - really? Is this substance? Really? What next? - "Kicking babies is WRONG! and we're just not going to let it go on without TAKING A STAND!"
The elephant in the room of PFAL Believing that JAL refers to indirectly but obviously if you're a PFAL grad is the FEAR/NEGATIVE believing doctrine - "you know what killed that little boy - it was the FEAR in the LIFE of the HEART of that mother!".....
One thing I'm recalling now that's really funny about this... I remember even when IN TWI, we used to joke around about this section and change it - we would say "you know what killed that little boy? It was the bumper on the car going down the street at 45 mph"...
Now we never made any kind of stink about it, but I think subconsciously that was our brain refusing to accept the ridiculousness of the LOB. Thinking back on it I really do believe there were a lot of things I didn't accept at face value. This is probably a good thing, and probably protected my brain from being filled with hogwash.
As far as specifically what JL is doing here - he is setting himself up a really nice straw man to knock down. If you buy that the scarecrow is real, then you might buy his logic.
But in reality, that straw man is every bit as real as the $13 bill.
One thing I'm recalling now that's really funny about this... I remember even when IN TWI, we used to joke around about this section and change it - we would say "you know what killed that little boy? It was the bumper on the car going down the street at 45 mph"...
We used to say, "You know what killed that little boy? It was the red drapes on the window!"
from the brothel in the red light district in Calgary. Wierwille knew exactly what and where he was. that should have set off spiritual alarm to Leonard right then and there.
The "negative" side of the chart - the "fear is believing" - is misleading, to say the least As part of the process in another in PFAL, same.
I've read that kind of thing a 1,000 times over the years in many places.
"....what I have greatly feared is come upon me.....".............Job's the poster child and the title could be "This could be you!"
Fear as a root cause of unbelief in anything is a very weird idea.
ie.......I'm afraid of (it) whatever, so I don't believe it. That doesn't really work consistently You may choose to not believe it but actually you might be more choosing to not accept or act on something you actually do believe but choose to ignore or avoid because you're - afraid ot it.
"I'm afraid I'll lose my job".
worry worry worry worry.
The fear and the worry aren't actually going to be the cause of losing your job. Not acting on that fear appropriately is what could certainly cause you to have no job if you lose it.
Losing it could reflect that you're such a worry wart your work suffers. Again - the work quality, not the worry.
Stopping the fear may or may not happen. If it's a legitimate concern it's going to be more than reciting "God will provide" and memorizing bible verses to that effect.
That God does provide is a reality that's important to reinforce and fear and worry can be worked with in light of that. But I think it would be correct to say that whether a person worries and fears over a bad outcome is not as important as how they respond to that worry and fear - basically keeping on a clear track or the kinds of outcomes they do want. Fear is never what we "want", or the thing we fear - we fear it, we don't want it so how could we bring it on ourselves? If we reject something we fear and avoid it - ?
As part of a "law" it can't be stated as PFAL does - "believing in reverse".
The irony of the law of believing is that, in some situations, fear can be your greatest friend. Fear can become that all important alarm that sounds when danger is imminent. Pretending it's a bad thing can cost you your life, as some unfortunately discovered
If I'm not mistaken, jal was teaching this stuff 12-15 years ago...how old is that video?
Back in the early 90s, a person I knew in The Way was trying to get me interested in CES. He showed me a letter JAL had sent out to Way people saying he had come to an epithany and realized he had made mistakes in his understanding of Bibical Research.
Among the points he ennumerated was that he came to realize the law of beliving effects nothing outsie your skin.
Other points, I'm a little foggy on--it was 20 years ago--but I belive he was also claiming the giants in Genesis were real giants.
I was reading some things on Creflo Dollar's site, he's a strong proponent of these "laws".
"that is why fear is a magnet for the things of which you are afraid. When you operate in fear, the law of sin and death goes into motion to bring about the very object of your fear.
Christians need to take steps to eliminate doubt and fear from their lives. I want to see my brothers and sisters in the Lord living under the blessings of the law of life in Christ Jesus. Examine yourself. Of what are you afraid? What worries and anxieties consistently occupy your thoughts?"
-----------------------
He explains this thusly:
In fact, any principle in the Bible which involves faith and its ability to bring good things to your life also will apply to fear and its power to bring destruction to your life. For example, we are told in Romans 10:10: "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Just as heart-belief and mouth-confession of God's Word brings about the blessings of salvation, when you have fear in your heart and speak it out loud with your mouth, it brings about destruction.
------------------------
I find it fascinating that he identifies what we believe in the heart and say with our mouth of "God's Word" is what brings about the "blessings" of salvation.
I will say this - I don't like heights. I can get up maybe somewhere between a 1 and 2 story but edges and ledges - don't dig 'em. I've been "afraid" of heights as long as I can remember. Get all sweaty palmed. Properly prepared I can navigate them but I would say quite honestly and without eguivocatin' that while I can't think of too many things I'm "afraid of" - heights would come pretty close to that. I've said it many times, thought about it at others and definitely have it in my list of things not to do if I don't have to. Going on 50 plus years.
I've yet to see a height come out and grab me, hoist me up, and knock me over and down.
It may happen yet but just hasn't happened so far.
Well, this is along those same lines of what I was talking about. Maybe there is something about the way your inner-ears are built that gives you less than optimal balance in these situations. Or, maybe your depth perception isn't well suited for such tasks. Your mind and body have a knack for putting this kinda information together. Like a cat has a knack for evaluating whether a hole is too small to crawl through. (most of the time) So, your mind throws up a red flag of sorts. Generates a sensation we've come to know as "fear". Should you ignore it and try to walk that I-Beam, 4 stories up anyhow? Well, I guess that depends on how big your believing is. (snicker)
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johniam
Very interesting. OK, he's condescending, he's a 13 dollar bill, he's a wanna be cult leader...nobody seems to want to deal with his actual message. Haven't had any dealings with his group. It was go
geisha779
I think you are right. It is really good that he is coming to these things that have so hurt us....but, maybe, he should just stop trying to teach each realization he is coming to in his own life. May
waysider
I'm not sure where to begin to comment on this. :o
shortfuse
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Broken Arrow
I agree. He needs to take a back seat for several years and submit to a good, legitimate Bible teacher. His pride will not let him do that. It's sad.
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Broken Arrow
HAH!!
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Ham
the victoid would just be so proud of him..
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socks
"it has been all over the map.......Personal Prophecy, a God with limited foreknowledge, Momentus"....
Self-initiated and self-perpetuating chaos - I really feel for those who ride this roller coaster.
There seems to be a core group of the ex-Wayfer gang that always manages to bob up to the top after their newest fad fades and wreaks whatever havoc it does.
Momentus is a perfect example of that - the founders and perpe-traitors of that mind-glue are still smiling proudly, having "moved on". Same with Personal Prophecy, etc. etc.
Tape and gum something together, push it, promote it, make a buck or three on it, then jump clear in time to avoid getting too messed up in the inevitable train wreck Scurry away, look for the next thing.
Stepping through the piles of debris of distrust and broken relationships must be tough but I guess you get good at it after the first few times.
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geisha779
That is it exactly. Another way to put it might be always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. The shoe fits.
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Ham
It isn't even a well-designed roller coaster. They aren't supposed to leap off the track at a high rate of speed..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
maybe He ought to listen to Steven Curtis Chapman's song Dive, teehee
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Ham
worst of all, were the daleks..
a Pitiless race..
I hope the republicans don't fit the bill here..
Isn't it a fair question?
Is it this where, we say, goodbye..
I hope not..
I thought I had forgotten something important, but it is nothing, or is it..
the one who "won't do it at all".. ended up being his incarnation.
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pawtucket
My biggest problem with the video is not the content, but with the presenter. He uses this overt enunciation as if he is preaching to idiots. He's done it for decades. Not that I could stomach reading his tomb on the great mystery, but he apparently made a statement to the effect that God could not perfectly tell the future. Well other than shredding the old testament to bits, he elevated himself a more knowing than God!!
He's got brass balls, I'll give him that. But he is still an arrogant pr**k.
In one felt swoop, he brushed me aside about a career I was pursuing and made me feel like an idiot. He'll never get that chance again. I have no time for a kettle that calls the pot black.
Edited by pawtucketI meant tome, or did I?
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excathedra
ugh i'm creepily embarrassed for him and that was for the couple of seconds i watched
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waysider
PFAL ("The Orange Book")
Page 32.
The law of believing is the greatest law in the Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only the greatest law in the Word, it is the greatest law in the whole world. Believing works for saint and sinner alike......VPW
..........................................................
Over, under, sideways, down
Backwards, forward, square and round
When will it end?.....The Yardbirds
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socks
"nobody seems to want to deal with his actual message."
Well, let's get down to that for a mo'.
John has liberally extended his gift of gab to ex-Wayfers over the years, giving them a shot at hearing or reading his realizations and conclusions because he feels an obligation to them - and I get that. Same with me - who am I to deny you the latest and greatest illuminations that I, socks, have come to? You guys always deserve the early beta, that's just how much I love y'all. You're welcome. Here's some more.
The elephant in the room of PFAL Believing that JAL refers to indirectly but obviously if you're a PFAL grad is the FEAR/NEGATIVE believing doctrine - "you know what killed that little boy - it was the FEAR in the LIFE of the HEART of that mother!".....
He refers to that using the superficial example of dogs and bites - obviously a ridiculous reference that has nothing to do with the example in PFAL of "negative believing" where it's taught that a child dies due to the fear of the parent. That's got some sticky to it when you hear it and needs to be addressed in detail and scripturally.
Barking dogs - who gives a crap?
You can't really dance around the major points of PFAL and not pay the band. Anyone who knows the material and the concepts is going to catch what you're referring to.
"The law of attraction" isn't the same as PFAL and the "law of believing". There's similarities but they're not apples and apples IMO.
JAL's doing a powder puff with this. The media drunk couch potatoes that have glommed onto the latest feel-good self-help craze wrapped in Christian parchment or whatever, may be challenged by what he's saying but all I can think is - yeah. So what? Anything I can really chew on? No? Thanks anyway.
I can only assume that there's an audience for this that will hoot and holler for more but c'mon - really? Is this substance? Really? What next? - "Kicking babies is WRONG! and we're just not going to let it go on without TAKING A STAND!"
C'maaaawn.
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chockfull
One thing I'm recalling now that's really funny about this... I remember even when IN TWI, we used to joke around about this section and change it - we would say "you know what killed that little boy? It was the bumper on the car going down the street at 45 mph"...
Now we never made any kind of stink about it, but I think subconsciously that was our brain refusing to accept the ridiculousness of the LOB. Thinking back on it I really do believe there were a lot of things I didn't accept at face value. This is probably a good thing, and probably protected my brain from being filled with hogwash.
As far as specifically what JL is doing here - he is setting himself up a really nice straw man to knock down. If you buy that the scarecrow is real, then you might buy his logic.
But in reality, that straw man is every bit as real as the $13 bill.
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excathedra
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waysider
Fire engine red, doncha know?
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Broken Arrow
We used to say, "You know what killed that little boy? It was the red drapes on the window!"
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
from the brothel in the red light district in Calgary. Wierwille knew exactly what and where he was. that should have set off spiritual alarm to Leonard right then and there.
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socks
The "negative" side of the chart - the "fear is believing" - is misleading, to say the least As part of the process in another in PFAL, same.
I've read that kind of thing a 1,000 times over the years in many places.
"....what I have greatly feared is come upon me.....".............Job's the poster child and the title could be "This could be you!"
Fear as a root cause of unbelief in anything is a very weird idea.
ie.......I'm afraid of (it) whatever, so I don't believe it. That doesn't really work consistently You may choose to not believe it but actually you might be more choosing to not accept or act on something you actually do believe but choose to ignore or avoid because you're - afraid ot it.
"I'm afraid I'll lose my job".
worry worry worry worry.
The fear and the worry aren't actually going to be the cause of losing your job. Not acting on that fear appropriately is what could certainly cause you to have no job if you lose it.
Losing it could reflect that you're such a worry wart your work suffers. Again - the work quality, not the worry.
Stopping the fear may or may not happen. If it's a legitimate concern it's going to be more than reciting "God will provide" and memorizing bible verses to that effect.
That God does provide is a reality that's important to reinforce and fear and worry can be worked with in light of that. But I think it would be correct to say that whether a person worries and fears over a bad outcome is not as important as how they respond to that worry and fear - basically keeping on a clear track or the kinds of outcomes they do want. Fear is never what we "want", or the thing we fear - we fear it, we don't want it so how could we bring it on ourselves? If we reject something we fear and avoid it - ?
As part of a "law" it can't be stated as PFAL does - "believing in reverse".
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waysider
The irony of the law of believing is that, in some situations, fear can be your greatest friend. Fear can become that all important alarm that sounds when danger is imminent. Pretending it's a bad thing can cost you your life, as some unfortunately discovered
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Ham
So what just happened? Did jl just cut his own throat?
It would seem so..
maybe he just doesn't want to kick babies any more.
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So_crates
Back in the early 90s, a person I knew in The Way was trying to get me interested in CES. He showed me a letter JAL had sent out to Way people saying he had come to an epithany and realized he had made mistakes in his understanding of Bibical Research.
Among the points he ennumerated was that he came to realize the law of beliving effects nothing outsie your skin.
Other points, I'm a little foggy on--it was 20 years ago--but I belive he was also claiming the giants in Genesis were real giants.
SoCrates
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socks
I was reading some things on Creflo Dollar's site, he's a strong proponent of these "laws".
"that is why fear is a magnet for the things of which you are afraid. When you operate in fear, the law of sin and death goes into motion to bring about the very object of your fear.
Christians need to take steps to eliminate doubt and fear from their lives. I want to see my brothers and sisters in the Lord living under the blessings of the law of life in Christ Jesus. Examine yourself. Of what are you afraid? What worries and anxieties consistently occupy your thoughts?"
-----------------------
He explains this thusly:
In fact, any principle in the Bible which involves faith and its ability to bring good things to your life also will apply to fear and its power to bring destruction to your life. For example, we are told in Romans 10:10: "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Just as heart-belief and mouth-confession of God's Word brings about the blessings of salvation, when you have fear in your heart and speak it out loud with your mouth, it brings about destruction.
------------------------
I find it fascinating that he identifies what we believe in the heart and say with our mouth of "God's Word" is what brings about the "blessings" of salvation.
I will say this - I don't like heights. I can get up maybe somewhere between a 1 and 2 story but edges and ledges - don't dig 'em. I've been "afraid" of heights as long as I can remember. Get all sweaty palmed. Properly prepared I can navigate them but I would say quite honestly and without eguivocatin' that while I can't think of too many things I'm "afraid of" - heights would come pretty close to that. I've said it many times, thought about it at others and definitely have it in my list of things not to do if I don't have to. Going on 50 plus years.
I've yet to see a height come out and grab me, hoist me up, and knock me over and down.
It may happen yet but just hasn't happened so far.
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waysider
Well, this is along those same lines of what I was talking about. Maybe there is something about the way your inner-ears are built that gives you less than optimal balance in these situations. Or, maybe your depth perception isn't well suited for such tasks. Your mind and body have a knack for putting this kinda information together. Like a cat has a knack for evaluating whether a hole is too small to crawl through. (most of the time) So, your mind throws up a red flag of sorts. Generates a sensation we've come to know as "fear". Should you ignore it and try to walk that I-Beam, 4 stories up anyhow? Well, I guess that depends on how big your believing is. (snicker)
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