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J.L .denounces Law of Believing


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as much as I can't stand the "secret" or the teaching on "the law of believing" they both have good points. You have to picture what you want in order to get it.

now what happens between picturing it and actually achieving it is anyone's guess.

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JAL renounced the so-called "Law of Believing" way back in 1987-88. That was one of the first things to go. Obviously, due to the circumstances of his exit from TWI, it had to. People need to remember that JAL's target audience is someone who is in TWI or who has left and still want to live the "glory days" of TWI (back when he was in and a golden boy). LoB might still be an issue to some. Maybe he feels a need to clearly state his position.

Up until he was shown the door, TWI (from his perspective) was the greatest thing since canned beer and sliced bread. He has spent the rest of his life so far trying to recreate that synergy (that, IMO, must have peaked about a year before I took PFAL).

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This is actually something that John Lynn has understood correctly for some time. Years ago he even did a good study and written teaching on Romans chapter 4. People this in on Youtube. This teaching is for everyone. This is not a teaching for you if you don't want to hear it. If you don't want to hear him do what he likes to do which is teach the bible then don't play the Youtube video and don't listen to him.

However, the teaching was fine and I did not hear anything wrong with it. This is how he ends this bible teaching.

"When we go to Him (God) in prayer, faith and obedience His (God's) power can make things happen outside our skin. And that is how we are suppose to live trusting in God and His Word."

There is nothing biblically wrong with that statement and the way he explains it. I may not agree with everything he teaches, but I know John personally and know that he is receptive to other people's views. I even called him up one time and talked him into giving the lady that he is currently married to a second chance in their relationship. I read some of what the lady wrote and thought she was sharp as a tack. Some of what she wrote is even posted on this web site. When I told John this he listened to me and as far as I know has benefitted from this. But then if you don't want to listen to him then don't. However, in spite of what some of you think here, John does listen to other people.

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Mark, good to see you.

I agree - overall, the topic is pretty much sand bagging for a Christian who simply reads the Bible and participates in a church or fellowship environment with stable caring pastoring. The "law of attraction" isn't really on that person's radar or something they would even come up with out of the Bible - but hold that thought if you would for a mo'......

the videos? Who cares, really? Youtube has videos of everything imaginable. That's what it's for.

John's been something of a religious gadfly over the years, buying into some fairly esoteric doctrinal beliefs. Momentus, "Personal Prophecy", involvement with doctrinal positions as to the nature of God ("foreknowledge")....all efforts that I would describe kindly as over extending himself. But that's his personal business and he's free to believe what he wants and whether he's qualified to be a "teacher" of the Bible can be weighed by the person who hears him. To me he could be saying "the sky is blue" and I probably wouldn't take his word for it simply because I have better sources to know the sky is blue. Today.

A friend of mine who's never been in the Way, ex-Way or anything like that at all, and who is a Christian, calls this kind of stuff "Christianity-Lite". Whereas teachers and pastors may become involved in all sorts of human issues and topics, there are more important issues and topics to promote than railing against the latest religious-flavor-of-the-month or hot-button theological desecration, whatever it might be.

I have no idea what he's doing and no intention of getting involved in any of it, at all. I would recommend to people that want to know God and Jesus Christ to stay away from this stuff and John's current organization, simply on face value of his past track record. He may be a good guy and doing his best - that doesn't mean he's doing good or that his best will be good for others. It's a big world God's put us in - I recommend to people, look up, look around, and definitely look out.

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I agree with you Socks. Just because John Lynn did not make any errors with his denouncing of the law of believing and his Youtube video does not mean he has never made any. Yes, I agree, he did, along with others, swallow some useless garbage with "Momentus" and "Personal Prophecy". Some of which hurt him personally, especially the good hearted lady that he is with. And it has hurt the ministry that he has been involved with. But again, one of my points is that John does listen to people. Sometimes to the wrong people, but sometimes to people like you and me Socks.

Thank you for your honest posting and evaluation my friend.

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Backatya Mark. Good to read you. I'm glad John listens, whoever to. Last time he and I spoke I had some recommendations. He wasn't interested. Things change over time, but I can promise you sooner or later he'll have to come around to those things and many more. They're not my idea, they're in the Bible he's holding.

There are standards and there are standards. We have a good set of standards for church pastors, elders and those who work and help the church. Timothy, Titus, other places in the N.T.

God is very forgiving and has a seemingly endless supply of forgive, of that there's no question.

Life in and of itself, has boundaries and limits and a limited supply of that forgive.

One of the things I try to learn and do teach on - both in practice and presentation - is that those are two different things

Life is terminal and has boundaries, God does not. This current life we live is informed by and rebirthed in Christ and that new life has a longer tail than this one of flesh and bones. Thus we see that while God asks us to live with a view to eternity He give us tools to live for today. It's up to us to use them or not.

When I look at the lifestyle portrayed and desirable for church leadership in Timothy and Titus - it's not asking for Supermen or Women. Basic honesty, integrity, love and care for others, not someone with a past history of ungodly behavior and conduct, someone married once and if they were, still. Someone who doesn't have a long list or history of problems with others.

One might say "well who can fill THOSE shoes"?

They're really not that big. Certainly we all have our problems, mistakes and difficulties. We learn and change.

The Bible simply makes the case that there are limits and and if a person wants to pastor and teach the church they need to have their act together and be serious about keeping it together throughout life.

John got involved with the Way young, as many of us did. He's had time.

Someone else might ask "what about Paul?" He is rather idealized in the biblical records (but who isn't) - still the profile is of a guy going one way then BAM! he gets the message and direction changes - 10, 15 years go by Pauls doing his thing - we know next to no details about those years but again - in the idealized record of his life there's no indication he blew up the church every few years, or continue to ruin people's lives over and over. it SEEMS like the "Saul/Paul" of the bible is a guy who wasn't dishonest or a ruinous to the lives of others post his "new birth". It really WAS a new birth and although he wasn't a big "miracle" guy from what we see, he was certainly the most powerful religious voice of his era - okay, "one of".

I'm not saying this because of anything having to do with the Way or the Way's teachings and stuff from 40 years ago - or because I'm particularly tight-as sed about how people live or what they do or allow.

I didn't make the standards. Some of us won't or can't live up to them. We need to get the message and find what we can do and do well without making a mess of everything else while we do.

And the issue of "gift ministries" adds another flavor and level to all of this. A lot of people feel John has a "teaching ministry".

You couldn't prove that by me - I don't think he does or ever did. He has other abilities that would serve others well, true. Many think he's a good public speaker. He's good, on average. Funny? Depends on how you rate "funny". But yeah, sure.

Course it's not up to me either way on that one, is it?

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JL, already has a gift ministry of helps, that is, preparing students for SAT. He is not a teacher(at least in scripture). He does have hospitality, just wish he had never gotten involved with TWI(likewise Walter Cummins who majored in math). Maybe John and Walter would have been happier in the long run.

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"JL, already has a gift ministry of helps, that is, preparing students for SAT."

Is that what that is - a gift ministry? You sure about that?

Socks, loved your retort. You sir, on the other hand have the gift ministry of biting sarcasm :biglaugh::rolleyes::anim-smile::eusa_clap:

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Old Skool -

Speaking of "believing"....

That's such a huge topic. I don't think that topic of money can be over stated when it comes to church leadership and pastoring in general.

Many ex-Wayfers tend to shrug off the issue of money and ministering. "The laborer is worthy of his hire".

A thoughtful read of the N.T. uses of this sage proverb shows that there's a lot that goes with it. It should never be assumed that because a person invokes the name of God or Jesus in what they do that they're worth the time of day.

We might ask "how much is a dishonest laborer worth and what should he be paid?".

Another could ask "how much is a laborer who doesn't build or contribute lasting work worth?" or "how much should I pay someone who builds me a fence but tears up my lawn doing it?"

In religion a lot of laborers expect to be paid simply because they do 'some" work and it's of a religious nature. Work that perhaps they weren't asked to do, or that they felt compelled to do of their own choice. They want to be paid for "services rendered". Hang up a God shingle, open the doors, start doing business. Is that all there is to it? Even the simplest of businesses require some licensing to operate, some level of certification to indicate the level of proficiency, some degree of experience that would testify to one's abilities. No less than the Son of God offered authentication as to who He was, by what authority He operated and to Whom He answered. Records indicate he backed it up when push came to shove. More than words and less than hollow promises were the standard.

Typically work comes with a warranty. You don't build a brick wall, walk away and if it falls down tomorrow say "sorry, you're on your own, it should have stood longer". Well, you can do that but it doesn't go over very well.

It's characteristic of Lynn to use the "Word of God" delivery......"this is what the Word of God says". He's definitely not a teacher. A salesman perhaps.

You can hear it in his smarmy tone and glib loquaciousness. Ne'er a word hits the floor before ten more are tumbling out and it all reeks of the inner knowledge that all is god-right in the Lynn world and who wouldn't want some of what he has, so good and so much of?

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JL, already has a gift ministry of helps, that is, preparing students for SAT.

why couldn't he just stick at what he is good at..

no, the students he helps will never with devoted subservience call him "da mog"..

it's a weird life.

one takes what one is given.. I taught four semesters of intermediate algebra. The first semester, you are plain awful. Horrible.

:biglaugh:

none of the other teaching assistants ever admitted it. But all of them, were as horrible, as I was..

The last semester.. the students started calling me "professor"..

the title is earned.

in da way, it was assumed..

probably the same today.

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Some people put the cart before the horse. Apparently JL doesn't mind putting the horse's arse before it's head and the announcing to everyone that that was how god intended it all along.

Jeez.

Why bother with him and his ilk? We've seen these morons come and go - maybe it's just entertainment.

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Old Skool -

Speaking of "believing"....

Great post, Socks. JL would make a better impression on me (not that he needs to, but just saying) if his "ministry" found some way to be self supporting w/o fleecing people of donations. Let the work prove itself as a true ministry, complete with signs, miracles, wonders, etc.

All I have seen from Lynn's group is the same useless rhetoric I used to see in the way international. IE, people going on and on about how electrifying the teachings are, and how amazing it is that we "know" so much more than everyone else. <_<

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Thanks Old Skool.

"Let the work prove itself as a true ministry"

"how electrifying the teachings are, and how amazing it is that we "know" so much more than everyone else.'

I guess I'm well grounded at this point as the shock value isn't what it used to be. :biglaugh:

It begs the question - how much does one need to know before one can function? Aside from quantity there's a quality question too, one assumes.

One of the character traits we see in the biblical cast of characters is self-motivation. Granted they were a community of people supporting each other in their beliefs and convictions. But it's clear that the individual convictions were self-sustaining. The people with them carried them regardless of the circumstance. It's a level of conviction that rests in one's own personal life, mind and heart. The "courage" of one's convictions isn't in how a person reacts to opposition (Nietzsche's view) but rather in how one's own life is governed by those convictions, regardless of opposition or agreement from others. (sock's premise) :) And people often call a person's religious beliefs their "faith". That's a misnomer when what a person believes is based on their own experience. When that experience proves to be repeatable and reliable comparing past to present to future, it's no longer truly a "faith" by definition, it's acceptance of reality.

Which goes to the swinish practice of charging others for our own insights. I suppose a course that imparts information about the bible is a commodity, a product that can be given a cost and a value. Ministers hell-bent on getting some money for what they do and teach might state that their teaching is "priceless" and a bargain at 100 bucks or 200 bucks or whatever. The problem with that to me is that it's both immoral and unethical - the information isn't their to sell, if it's "God's Word". Those words are God's. Unless I can show some paperwork I'm not authorized to resell it, as far as I know or can see.

I may be authorized to share it on God's behalf. The going rate for say, eternal salvation is between the individual and God. The bible says something about Jesus Christ settling up on that, as we've all read.......sooooo......

Christianity and the core message is a no-cost operation for us. It's a fascinating exercise to deconstruct how so much of the effort around it has introduced commerce into it.

I really like the U2 song "Vertigo" where Bono riffs on the words of Satan to Jesus when he challenged and tempted him.....

"All of this can yours, just give me what I want and no one gets hurt".........it is a temptation when someone who will make your life hell says they'll go away for a price. Add insult to injury if we pay and they come back later with "Gotcha!!!"

It seems like traces of that carry on in these ex-Way ministries- abundance, blessings beyond imagination and a storehouse of good opening it's doors - if we just know the right things. It can all be yours, and it's what God wants!"

Now give me a donation and I can guarantee you a seat in the next class....:evildenk:

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Great post, Socks. JL would make a better impression on me (not that he needs to, but just saying) if his "ministry" found some way to be self supporting w/o fleecing people of donations. Let the work prove itself as a true ministry, complete with signs, miracles, wonders, etc.

All I have seen from Lynn's group is the same useless rhetoric I used to see in the way international. IE, people going on and on about how electrifying the teachings are, and how amazing it is that we "know" so much more than everyone else. <_<

Speaking of which, I used to think the teachings of TWI and JAL as "electrifying", but when compared to work other people have done, they're mediocre at best. JAL really is an average communicator and not a Bible teacher at all. I'm not saying he isn't a nice guy and a good friend to some. PFAL, the wonder class, really isn't all that impressive either. I, along with most of you, dubbed PFAL as the greatest teaching on the Word of God since the first century. No it isn't. PFAL is a hodgepodge of different points of view of a person. It is not an exhaustive, nor even an introductory view of the Bible. Yes, I realize it's B.G. Leonard's class originally. Regardless, I still have the same opinion of PFAL. It's sad that many started and stopped their Biblical quest with PFAL.

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PFAL, the wonder class, really isn't all that impressive either. I, along with most of you, dubbed PFAL as the greatest teaching on the Word of God since the first century. No it isn't.

Lynn uses the same claim for his group. Greatest teaching since the first century church. <_< I think their claims measure up nicely to P.T. Barnums "The Greatest Show on Earth" hype.

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....the same claim for his group...."Greatest teaching since the first century church."

Marketing 101 - the difference in services and products.

Services are intangible. "He helped me". There's no ownership, no title transfer. A promise to perform a service or deliver a product is like a "box of air" in sales, "I will help you based on our agreement when conditions are met".

Products are things. Stuff. There's ownership and they can be held and transferred. Products have a lifetime, an expiration date or expected length of performance.

The mix of this in the Way's organization was that PFAL was a product, a thing, which provided information and a promise related to performance. "This information will produce these results".

One could say reading the Bible it does the same thing, testimonies to what certain information produces or will produce. However the Bible presents much of it's information in the form of a history, telling what happened, with some more narrative and expository sections. On face value one reads "this happened" and we know it happened because it happened this way to these people at these times and here's the story of what and how and sometimes why.

The statement "greatest teaching since the first century church" is an odd one, as I've pondered it lo these many moons. It's a claim about a product - "teaching".

An aside would be defining what the meaning of that really is but we know it's generally meant to refer to the content, not the actual act of teaching - the greatest presentation and act of teaching - although that actually plays into it the way it's marketed....the form of delivery seems to be part of the brand of Lynn, a patented, recognizable form of presenting that can be anticipated and that has a value in itself and that adds value to the product. Just another humble teacher of the truth yes we're sure, but a funny one and one you'll like more than ever.

The teaching itself, the knowledge being advertised has always existed was never really "lost" as sometimes inferred - knowledge can't be lost even if the things known no longer existed. Meta-phys-ed-whacky topic I know but worth considering in this context.

I would maintain (not an original idea either) that knowledge isn't a product or a thing. The things known are. Defining knowledge is more difficult than it sounds although at the ground-level get my pants on in the morning kind of view it is.

So I guess what that statement makes me think of is how they brand their "class". The "teaching" is a service and the service is to re present the knowledge which then reveals the realities. But when they "product-ize" it and turn it into a "thing", as many many efforts do about all kinds of things - there's an inherent disconnect for me at this point, a kind of "that doesn't work that way" sort of reaction.

Probably not making it clear here but, my keyboard needed dusting.

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Teaching...part of Way jargon.

The Oxford Dictionary defines teaching as:

noun

  • 1 [mass noun] the occupation, profession, or work of a teacher.
  • 2 (teachings) ideas or principles taught by an authority:the teachings of the Koran

and for the avoidance of doubt, "mass noun" is:

mass noun

Grammar

  • a noun denoting something which cannot be counted (e.g. a substance or quality), in English usually a noun which lacks a plural in ordinary usage and is not used with the indefinite article, e.g. china, happiness. Contrasted with count noun
  • a noun denoting something which normally cannot be counted but which may be countable when it refers to different units or types, e.g. coffee (drank some coffee, ordered two coffees).

Teachers teach...a lesson or lessons ...not a teaching, or teachings. A music lesson. A French lesson. Driving lessons.

A collection of works by a teacher might conceivably be his "teachings."

So in fact...that was a fine lesson that JAL taught

not...a fine teaching that JAL taught

But of course if they used normal language it would reduce the mystique.

Like instead of saying a "teaching" they called it a "sermon" (isn't that what the main talking part of a church service is called, hmm?) - or some church services might call it a "message" or a "talk" - but I've never heard any other denomination call that part of a service - a "teaching."

In churchy things, "lesson" is reserved for the Bible reading (which might nowadays simply be called the "reading").

But hey, when has TWI and its derivatives really cared for correct English (or any other language) if it could cloak itself in special words and special understandings...

Teacher, teach thyself...

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The teaching itself, the knowledge being advertised has always existed was never really "lost" as sometimes inferred - knowledge can't be lost even if the things known no longer existed. Meta-phys-ed-whacky topic I know but worth considering in this context.

That's another thing, this stuff about the mystery being hidden since the death of the Apostle Paul, and uncorked only when VP taught it in PFAL is absolute poppycock. I very much remember sitting through session 5 and seeing the grads with awestruck faces as VP said, "Christ in you etc...." I learned the same thing in church, a lot of people did. I thought, "That's it? That's the big deal?" But I decided I was missing something. Soon I joined everyone in lockstep and became awestruck myself as VP would come on the tape again and go, "Christ in you....! Don't get me wrong. I think the new birth is pretty exciting. I just don't think the truth of that was lost and covered until God showed it to VP, and VP taught it to us.

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