Just what is the REAL reason why you can't have a mortgage?
7 members have voted
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1. Why can't you have a mortgage if you are in the Way?
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Because you might not have enough money left to give to the BOD.4
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Because the BOD doesn't want you to feel comfortable in your own home.2
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Because the money you put down for a downpayment could be put in the pockets of the BOD.5
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OperaBuff
I was long gone when they came out with this particular piece of inanity, but I imagine it has to do with keeping their members focused on growing the TWI bank accounts first, ahead of anything else. God would never talk to you directly about your own financial affairs, you see; God talks to TWI first and then they relay the info to you. Er, except that TWI has long taught that God always first talks to you about you. But, through an extra special set of highly spiritual circumstances, TWI got God to talk to them first about your money.
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chockfull
Because people owning homes and property are far less likely to bow down to muckity-mucks living in trailers?
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socks
I understand the debt/financial advice to a congregation. Advising against taking on a mortgage for a home is suspect, right outta the gate. I never caught the development of this. Locally, at one time the Way Credit Union had a standing dollar amount for homes in the surrounding area, if the buyer could come up with the down payment. In fact, I think there was a set home price of 40k on the loans - if you had a home 40k or under you wanted to buy and had x amount for the down, you got the loan, processing was quick 'n' easy. For general membership it was more of a cultural and social influence not to incur debt. If a person could manage the financial part of buying a home themselves it wasn't a big issue.
What the Way got out of that was that they had staffers owning property, paying taxes and with an active vote in their respective communities. It was a way to put down stakes in the area that would allow for meaningful participation. Sphere of influence stuff. It's one thing to come and go every year or two - if you own, spend $ with local providers and suppliers, pay property taxes, sales tax, etc. you have an impact and should by rights have a voice.
I would figure it's probably a combination of two things - exercising their doctrinal authority with members, and the financial drain they went through when Martindale put the Way Corps on full time salary and the resulting need to scale down their financial spends and liabilities. That may have carried over and produced the policy ministry wide for everyone.
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Twinky
Nah, the no-mortgages policy came out way before that, Socks. As I understand it, VP mortgaged one of the campuses and it took a lot to pay off the loan. The mortgage deed (once repayment was effected) was then cut up into small pieces and distributed - to whom I'm not sure, but I do know someone who had a piece.
VP said that having a mortgage put you under enslavement because you always had to work and work, to pay the interest on the mortgage.
Under Martindale, that became part of his no-debt policy and went far too far.
I'd have to agree, having a mortgage does cause worry. The monthly payment has to be met, regularly. It's not so easy to change to smaller, cheaper accommodation. It's not so easy if your location no longer meets your family's needs, for whatever reason. There is the thought of paying off large sums of money for decades. Some kinds of benefit/state aid may not be available, because you have a capital asset that you could (notionally) sell.
But then again - rent has to be paid, or landlords tend to get rid of tenants. Large sums of money, sometimes exceeding what would be a mortgage payment, have to be paid, for decades - except that at the end of the decades, you're still renting.
Whether one rents or buys, there is financial outlay. It should be left to individual families to determine what's best for them - not following everyone else and buying, if they can't afford it - nor renting, if it would be better for the family to live in an owned home.
If the WC managed to own homes - huh, they wouldn't be moved on every few years...a loss of control over them. Or maybe the house-owning WC would move - but just rent their homes out to other people at something that would cover the mortgage payment. Maybe rent to the next Branch Coordinator or whatever.
Martindale was proud that his family owned nothing, no property, but lived well. Yeah, because they'd nabbed the Log Cabin, which was supposed to be for ALL Way Corps; and they lived at virtually no cost on a campus with housekeepers, gardeners, chauffeurs, and any other kind of staff they could desire.
I'd love to know his views now on some of those subjects he once pontificated so vehemently upon.
And I wonder if his kids have taken out mortgages so that they can buy their own homes.
Oh .. and VP said paying interest on a loan for TWI facilities was a waste of ABS. Yeah, sure was...but that doesn't mean the same principle should apply to private (non-TWI) facilities.
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OldSkool
From what I can tell you from personal exposure to Rosie and Donna, it all comes down to control. Those two are the worst micro-managers I have ever met. They really get off on playing the role of the benevolent dictator. They know what is best for people "spiritually" (whatever the h3ll that means?) and believe it is their job to tell people what is best for them. Even though they hold themselves to a different standard in most cases.
Also, the no debt policy was not Craig. Rosalie used Donna to push that through Craig's presidency when they had him over a barrel, so to speak, with his extra-marital affairs.
Rosalie was the power behind the throne before sitting on the throne herself.
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Ham
The real reason? I think "joining" the way is supposed to be like taking a vow of poverty. Can't be distracted by worldly possessions or something..
the *true* followers are supposed to be priests and nuns, serving the doctrines of da way to the world..
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waysider
My 2 cents:
1. Why give it to the bank when you could just as easily give it to The Way?
(Actually, this one could apply to charitable donations, which The Way frowned upon, as well.)
2. People with large financial commitments are prone to stay in one place for extended periods of time.
(This is not compatible with the nomadic lifestyle required of hard core Way devotees.)
Of course, The Way is quite adept at providing "scriptural proof" to bolster whatever their current stance might be on any given issue.
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chockfull
People that are poor are more easily controlled. People without long-term residences can be convinced to move around so that they can be more easily controlled. When a person moves to a new area they have a ready-built new family and authority figures, which the Way controls.
The no-debt policy is a form of cult control.
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OldSkool
I am convinced of this as well, as I stated earlier. I don't think it's so much about extracting more money from people, since they are willing to disqualify people based on having debt. Everything from the advanced class onward requires that a person be debt free. This seems to be a marked change from Wierwille's policies who appears to have used anything he could beg, steal or borrow to grow his organization.
Advanced class, staff, way disciple, way corps training, active way corps, participation in advanced class specials, and other classes or events all require a person(s) to be debt free. These programs and classes are the real money makers for twi. When you think about it advanced class grads are the ones tasked with propagating the way international. Way corps are just the clip board carriers. Way disciples are suckered into a 6 month sabbatical to grow TWI. Both groups are advanced class grads with different colored name tags. Not to oversimplify things.
In regards to the no debt policy, Rosalie has shown how stupid she really is. She has cut off entrance to the advanced class to those who are in debt, thus constricting the way international's growth. I think the results are obvious compared to Wierwille's day who would take anyone as long as their money held out.
My advanced class was in the mid to late 90s and had around 600 students. The year I left the way international they had around 80 (or less) students and they had started the work study program because there weren't enough people on staff to support the advanced class.
Great work Rosie!!!
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skyrider
What Ham said......vow of poverty, no "worldly distractions," of sorts.
What Waysider said....a nomadic lifestyle and "no roots" but twi.
What Chockfull said...people that are poor are easily controlled.
What Oldskool said....another policy to grow the organization, twi always first.
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frank123lol
I was told"So you could go way disciple". To which I replied to hell with that.
That comment put me on thier danglist.So I proceeded to look for a house to buy.
I was told,"You are waving your peepee in gods face"Pffffftttt to that.
Been great leaving yon monsterhood...
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chockfull
IMO Rosalie's goals are to limit the field to a small group of people able to be controlled and to cover the cost of the staff needed to support them. And with the headquarters it's to be able to survive without any field money coming in.
In other words her two goals are:
1) Control
2) Preserving the riches made in previous generations to live off of for her, her girlfriend and compliant minions
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Keith
The Way isn't the only group that preaches a No Debt doctrine. However TWI is the only group that makes it almost a requirement for everyone, and makes you feel guilty if are in debt. Most of the other groups that I know that teach a No Debt doctrine also add, that right now there may not be a choice on big items like houses and cars, but include teaching on how, both spirtually and financially to get out of debt and they certainly do not make it law.
That said, I'm not sure that TWI's No Debt policy was at least partly a means to control you and make you feel small compared to the "heavyweights of leadership."
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mudflaps
Rosalie and her clan are a joke.Sounds like they still will not let up on their no debt legalism,I'm sure in their minds they are thinking "We are so smart with our no debt policy and our punishments we enforce for people who have debt will give them the incentive to get out of debt."
News flash!You are not smart and you are not doing the will of God,look at your lack of fruit produced.
I have heard stories about twi people having a mortgage but they put it in someone elses name and this loophole still allows them to be involvrd in the corp etc.Anyone know if this is true?
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waysider
Oh, they do love their "loopholes", don't they? Reminds me of the time one of the believers tried to rationalize to me why fornication is O.K. "You see", she said, "it's really just skin against skin, no different than putting your finger in someone's ear." Hahahahahaha!......... Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's different.
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OldSkool
Yes, people do this sort of thing.
Gotta say!
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skyrider
Yes, this is true.
And.....there is a high degree of certainty, with WayGB monitoring this site, that Rosalie and controllers KNOW who has these "back door mortgages" as I like to refer to them.
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chockfull
Oh absolutely. The height of hypocrisy is some of these fellowship coordinators, and people with high positions like region coordinators that have a relative that carries their mortgage and then to hear them teach about how debt is wrong and how they support the ministry's debt policy and watch them argue with and condemn others for having mortgages saying they are not as committed.
Obviously they have never read in Proverbs about not being a surety for your neighbor. Oh, but that doesn't apply to them using their relatives in this fashion.
Hypocrisy. Pharisee behavior. Disgusting. Actually a study of the Pharisees pretty much shows you how TWI leadership behaves.
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Ham
Is twi (rosie, donster) aware of this behavior?
Do they approve of it?
I mean.. these region coordinators(?).. I thought they had them on a very short leash. Have to give account for everything, to stay employed with renumeration under needs basis and all.
Have to submit copies of paid water, utility bills, rent receipts..
Wouldn't a receipt for a "rent payment" to a "cop out" relative be at least a little suspicious to those charged with "authority"?
What I really think it is.
They are afraid of running any more top leadership off. Nobody with even less than a quarter of a brain would be willing to step in to take the position..
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frank123lol
One in my area did a land contract with the quit claim so they could "walk"quickly.
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Ham
was that the guy who came here the year after I was out?
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OldSkool
The way most "land contracts" are worded they are usually really bad deals for the buyer. Again, way to go TWI!
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Ham
Nice to see an organization that loves it's people, or participants I guess..
with a *tiny* bit of prodding from this lame organization, I would have likely earned the master's degree twenty years ago..
no I'm not blaming them. They just lost out on a lot of "opportunity"..
they will not see one red nickel, or penny of support. Or "spiritual" support from me..
if I end up being solvent here, the local soup kitchen will be serving a substantially better menu..
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skyrider
Yes, a short leash.......to do the bod's bidding.
Are the region coordinators within the twi-prez's inner circle? Seems so. Are they given perks and favors?.....as well as given free passes on certain mandates? Yeppers.
One has to remember that many have given testimony of Mrs. Moneyhands (wife of region guy) "counseling" some corps girls on Mr. Martindale's sexual predation back in the 80s/90s. As region coordinators, the Moneyhands knew about the abortions, the sexcapades, the unbridled lust on the twi motorcoaches.
When martindale's sh!t hit the fan in 2000......seven or eight region couples and a couple of ex-trunk coordinators scampered for the darkness. Ain't hard to wonder, is it?......knowing that two lawsuits were slapped down at that time!
It is my personal belief that *most* region coordinators KNEW "where the bodies were buried" and with martindale's THUD.....they didn't want to be implicated.
Hell, I knew plenty of Limb guys and clergy that knew NONE of this stuff that was later posted on GS....
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