Driscoll is out of control.....he has been confronted by other pastors.....he has been outed as being abusive and he just keeps getting worse. People flock to his church. I don't get it.
I don't want to get too involved here, because I know some Greasespotters love and adore the Reverend Mr. Driscoll as a great man of God. As long ago as 2008 I saw him as a cult waiting to happen. The "discipline contract" is ridiculous and not Christian at all. I realize they quote a lot of Scripture, but hey, the Devil quoted Scripture to Jesus, so I guess anyone can use Scripture to back up their error if they look for the right verse to twist.
Driscoll and his wife, Grace, have a new book out titled Real Marriage which my former church is studying diligently. I read a lot of reviews, and it is basically a sex manual. For someone who absolutely forbids his followers to have any kind of sexual relationship whatsoever, The Reverend Mr. Driscoll seems inordinately interested in the subject.
Their book is very very detailed about their own marriage, physical relationship, her "sin" on a senior trip that caused her husband horrible grief and regret when she confessed to him, and I guess the chapters about sex how-to's and can-we's are very lurid indeed. I have no intention of reading the book. I just mentioned it because I think the whole group of elders shows a voyeuristic interest in everyone's sexual experiences. There are two areas of my life that are no one's damn business unless I invite them: The bank book and the bedroom. This guy is as Geisha says, out of control.
Edited to add: His view of women as basically stupid little chickie-boos is outdated. I don't understand how any intelligent, strong woman can put up with his BS.
I don't want to get too involved here, because I know some Greasespotters love and adore the Reverend Mr. Driscoll as a great man of God. As long ago as 2008 I saw him as a cult waiting to happen. The "discipline contract" is ridiculous and not Christian at all. I realize they quote a lot of Scripture, but hey, the Devil quoted Scripture to Jesus, so I guess anyone can use Scripture to back up their error if they look for the right verse to twist.
Driscoll and his wife, Grace, have a new book out titled Real Marriage which my former church is studying diligently. I read a lot of reviews, and it is basically a sex manual. For someone who absolutely forbids his followers to have any kind of sexual relationship whatsoever, The Reverend Mr. Driscoll seems inordinately interested in the subject.
Their book is very very detailed about their own marriage, physical relationship, her "sin" on a senior trip that caused her husband horrible grief and regret when she confessed to him, and I guess the chapters about sex how-to's and can-we's are very lurid indeed. I have no intention of reading the book. I just mentioned it because I think the whole group of elders shows a voyeuristic interest in everyone's sexual experiences. There are two areas of my life that are no one's damn business unless I invite them: The bank book and the bedroom. This guy is as Geisha says, out of control.
Edited to add: His view of women as basically stupid little chickie-boos is outdated. I don't understand how any intelligent, strong woman can put up with his BS.
Yes, been following (via critics) his tactics and Craig like antics for awhile. No Pastor (sic) should be put in the position to be the ''authority on sex". MYOB!!! exactly, no bank book or bedroom!!!!! This is a sinking ship.
"I don't want to get too involved here, because I know some Greasespotters love and adore the Reverend Mr. Driscoll as a great man of God."
Really? He reads like an a-hole. Actually, he reads like he picked up the Momentus handbook and used it - which would make him the same thing I guess.
" I just mentioned it because I think the whole group of elders shows a voyeuristic interest in everyone's sexual experiences."
Church porno? That's what it sounds like to me, cheap kicks. He may have such personal condemnation over something that he feels guilty about......doing this kind of thing through his "church" provides a means to have the uber thrills that denial produces.
Weird.
Here we are, in the middle of America where freedom chimes like a ring in a bell. And people sign "contracts" like that?
I want those names for a mailing list. I have some land under the Golden Gate Bridge I want to sell them."Water front property".
I follow a blog that recently received a letter from a Mars Hill church member and the abuse he's receiving. Very similar to the control and abuse of power that leadership had over it's Way followers. This poor guy came to THEM with his sin, seeking restoration and forgiveness. What he got was a month of meetings, hoops, gossip and shunning.
Reading through this I can certainly see the similarities. geisha mentioned people flock to his church which got me thinking about the wolf/sheep imagery Jesus used.
There are two elements here - a predator and prey. You need someone with the ego and motives to want to start a church / religious organization to run their own outfit, make a bunch of money, have a lot of power - basically to construct a little idolatrous image to themself here on earth. The other element is the sheep mentality. People are so willing to give up freedom and control of their lives to someone else for the promise of safety, discipline (in a good way - like the appeal of the Corps / WOW programs), a sense of belonging.
There are two problems here - megalomaniacs acting like predators. And naieve Christians acting like prey.
If predators would try that behavior in an environment without people acting like prey they would face lawsuits, physical and verbal confrontation, and worse. One thing I will say I am stronger in after my TWI experience is that I have stopped acting like prey.
Sheeesh. Good for Andrew getting away from there, and good for him seeking a counselor to talk with and help clarify his mind. The part that creeps me out the most in this sucker parade called Mars Hill is the voyeuristic angle; church officials wanting a young man to state in writing all of his sexual experiences. That's truly a sick request. If some other unfortunate young man were to honor that sick request and submit such a statement, he should include photographs and ask for extra credit.
"According to Andrew, at Mars Hill, the cliche “it takes two to tango” isn’t true. Why? Because Pastor Mark teaches that women are “weaker vessels,” and therefore, when a girl and boy engage in consensual sexual activity, it is always assumed that it’s the man’s fault because he failed to lead the woman (or “weaker vessel”) toward righteousness. (And everybody knows that women can’t find righteousness unless a man leads her there. Ugh."
Is this official church doctrine? If it is, I'd like to see book, chapter and verse.
I would be totally amazed that anyone would put up with this kind of nonsense if I hadn't been a TWI-bot myself. A church discipline contract? Is that even Biblical?
A few years back we attended a Mars Hill Church plant. Their church planting division is called "Acts 29" and Driscoll of course is the present of Acts 29. The young pastor and his wife worshipped the ground "Pastor Mark" walked on, much like our last branch leader and his wife worshipped the ground LCM walked on. I could see it coming from miles away and we left after we studied the statement of beliefs of that outfit.
That church plant is now studying Driscoll's new sex manual, one chapter per Sunday. Wonder how they'll teach the chapter on "positions?"
That's just stupid. Never heard of that non-sense before, but hey, I never heard of a pregnancy policy until I was in the way international. Crazy though.
Well, I mean besides China. So China and the way international both have pregnancy policies.
After reading the first post on this thread, I went and googled "Mars Hill". The name seemed to ring a bell with me, though I couldn't point to a specific reason. Maybe one of my classmates mentioned it in passing conversation.
I've had direct personal experience with two "ducks": Wierwille's TWI and wannabe direct off-shoots, and Toccini's Momentus (which included signing a "hold-harmless" contract before being allowed to participate).
It seems to me that Driscoll looks, quacks and walks like a duck. I am sad for those taken in by his quackery. He also goes to show that a cult can be a cult, even with perfectly orthodox theology.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - I remember how I came across reference to Mars Hill. I was looking for the youtube rap presentation called "Jesus vs. Religion", and I came across an excerpt with the same title by Marc Driscoll.
Momentus is the bird droppings from a seagull that flew by Jesus once on his way to the sea.
There's a lot of movement in churches to have an "open door" entry level kind of outreach and shoot for big numbers. Church for those who don't like church, that kind of thing.
Some succeed, some don't. Success in numbers doesn't mean anything worthwhile is getting done.
Driscoll shouts a mean sermon and is described as a "theology buff". Great.
I think a high risk area for pastors is when the personal desire to reach and help others pushes them to redefine scripture, to enter into doctrine and theology, areas that they aren't equipped for. I should say, some are some arent. But I've met people that have gone through some churches ministerial programs where the areas of theology sound like they are mostly skim jobs with no depth of inquiry or real learning and the emphasis was on outreach and building a church congregation (sounds familiar).
Later then in the midst of the challenges of dealing with real people, they grapple with deeper issues and aren't prepared. Rather than expand their resource base and direct their people to the right resources with other's expertise, they declare organizational autonomy and attempt to impose their new visions on the church. (sound familiar?)
I read some of the church pastors say the same thing we did years ago - "Jesus didn't have to ask a committee if it was okay to teach!"
Yeah, but he was Jesus. And He did ask the Father and do the Father's will always. I'm not going to bet my next paycheck on somebodys' word the mean well and know better.
"I meant well" wouldn't cut it with brain surgery. It's tragic some of these guys push forward so aggressively yet so scatter box in the arena's of people's emotional and spiritual lives.
It seems to me that Driscoll looks, quacks and walks like a duck. I am sad for those taken in by his quackery. He also goes to show that a cult can be a cult, even with perfectly orthodox theology.
Yep! My thoughts exactly after reading the links left by the OP. Church discipline contract? That is absolutely crazy.
Sheeesh. Good for Andrew getting away from there, and good for him seeking a counselor to talk with and help clarify his mind. The part that creeps me out the most in this sucker parade called Mars Hill is the voyeuristic angle; church officials wanting a young man to state in writing all of his sexual experiences. That's truly a sick request. If some other unfortunate young man were to honor that sick request and submit such a statement, he should include photographs and ask for extra credit.
Yeah - very sick. Seems many of these megalomaniac cult leaders have some very twisted sexual views - voyeuristic/secret flasher, serial rapist & use sex for power(vpw).
OldSkool and Steve, do you consider their views towards women to be "orthodox?"
Edited to add: those views alone would label them as a cult to me.
I don't consider Driscoll's view on women to be genuinely Christian, but it has certainly been orthodox since the time of Augustine at the turn of the 4th/5th century. Why do you think there has been so much controversy about ordaining women?
Well, ordaining women was certainly controversial back when I was young. Nowadays, the controversy has migrated to other issues.
One of the things that originally appealed to me about TWI was that Wierwille was willing to ordain women, though I later learned that was only a temporary (and public mask) phase in development of TWI's attitude toward women.
OldSkool and Steve, do you consider their views towards women to be "orthodox?"
Edited to add: those views alone would label them as a cult to me.
I'm not sure as I am not very well versed in orthodox Christianity. Just the Southern Baptist Church and the way international. I find their views disgusting though. When I was a wayfer I never agreed with the way men were supposed to treat their wives and never treated mine that way. We work on things together and if she wants to do something I don't want to then more power to her.
One of the things that originally appealed to me about TWI was that Wierwille was willing to ordain women, though I later learned that was only a temporary (and public mask) phase in development of TWI's attitude toward women.
At least in twi there is a veneer of equality of the sexes.
A very thin veneer.
Unless twi has vastly changed and been ordaining women in the past 10 years....
.....there were 26 ordained women in twi at one time.
Today.....as far as I know, only 3 ordained women remain in twi....
...1)Rosalie Rivenbark, 2)M@rcia Gr33ne, and 3)Cl@udette Roy@l.
The Acts 29 church plant we attended does not have women's Bible studies, fellowships or anything of the sort. Their pastor says women are gossiping, lazy, backbiting busybodies (a Driscoll quote, I believe). One of his most precious doctrines is that no female will be allowed to speak from his stage. He has had strong, intelligent women in that church and two of them (a friend of mine and me) have left. Women are to be squashed into submission by their husbands.
I don't even understand this Biblically. I understand the culture of Jesus' time on earth, but He was decent enough to women, so what's the big deal? If Driscoll thinks he is following in the footsteps of Christ, maybe he should have a peek at the Gospels and see where they lead him.
For those of you who are unfamiliar with Driscoll.....here is a video. I caution you, it may cause flashbacks.....it is eerily familiar. Seriously, don't watch it if screaming from the pulpit gives you too much stress.
Driscoll looks like a fat Justin Chambers (of Grey's Anatomy fame) with a Sam Kinneson scream voice. I'm sure he's very threatening to those under his authority though :)
Now that I think about it (I've heard/seen this video before) he reminds me of a guy who for years has done furniture store commercials in this extremely loud, urgent, high-pitched castrato voice. The tag line is "PRICES ARE GREAT AT AMERICAN FREIGHT!" I always want to remove the vise grips from his externals and tell him to take a nice warm bath.
I went back and listened to the first couple of minutes...UGH! He really does sound like that commercial! He is such a cheap trick, a ham actor, and again, WHY would anyone do anything other than RUN LIKE THE VERY DEVIL in the opposite direction from this screaming little b#st&rd?
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geisha779
Driscoll is out of control.....he has been confronted by other pastors.....he has been outed as being abusive and he just keeps getting worse. People flock to his church. I don't get it.
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skyrider
bliss.......similarities are popping up everywhere.
Like many things, this abusive power and control in religion has been around for centuries......and perhaps, more concentrated
in cult and splinter groups. The Herbert Armstrong followers experienced controversy and major fallout, as well.
The more I learn......the more I see that TWI was just another piker.
.
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Watered Garden
I don't want to get too involved here, because I know some Greasespotters love and adore the Reverend Mr. Driscoll as a great man of God. As long ago as 2008 I saw him as a cult waiting to happen. The "discipline contract" is ridiculous and not Christian at all. I realize they quote a lot of Scripture, but hey, the Devil quoted Scripture to Jesus, so I guess anyone can use Scripture to back up their error if they look for the right verse to twist.
Driscoll and his wife, Grace, have a new book out titled Real Marriage which my former church is studying diligently. I read a lot of reviews, and it is basically a sex manual. For someone who absolutely forbids his followers to have any kind of sexual relationship whatsoever, The Reverend Mr. Driscoll seems inordinately interested in the subject.
Their book is very very detailed about their own marriage, physical relationship, her "sin" on a senior trip that caused her husband horrible grief and regret when she confessed to him, and I guess the chapters about sex how-to's and can-we's are very lurid indeed. I have no intention of reading the book. I just mentioned it because I think the whole group of elders shows a voyeuristic interest in everyone's sexual experiences. There are two areas of my life that are no one's damn business unless I invite them: The bank book and the bedroom. This guy is as Geisha says, out of control.
Edited to add: His view of women as basically stupid little chickie-boos is outdated. I don't understand how any intelligent, strong woman can put up with his BS.
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bliss
Yes, been following (via critics) his tactics and Craig like antics for awhile. No Pastor (sic) should be put in the position to be the ''authority on sex". MYOB!!! exactly, no bank book or bedroom!!!!! This is a sinking ship.
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socks
"I don't want to get too involved here, because I know some Greasespotters love and adore the Reverend Mr. Driscoll as a great man of God."
Really? He reads like an a-hole. Actually, he reads like he picked up the Momentus handbook and used it - which would make him the same thing I guess.
" I just mentioned it because I think the whole group of elders shows a voyeuristic interest in everyone's sexual experiences."
Church porno? That's what it sounds like to me, cheap kicks. He may have such personal condemnation over something that he feels guilty about......doing this kind of thing through his "church" provides a means to have the uber thrills that denial produces.
Weird.
Here we are, in the middle of America where freedom chimes like a ring in a bell. And people sign "contracts" like that?
I want those names for a mailing list. I have some land under the Golden Gate Bridge I want to sell them."Water front property".
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chockfull
Reading through this I can certainly see the similarities. geisha mentioned people flock to his church which got me thinking about the wolf/sheep imagery Jesus used.
There are two elements here - a predator and prey. You need someone with the ego and motives to want to start a church / religious organization to run their own outfit, make a bunch of money, have a lot of power - basically to construct a little idolatrous image to themself here on earth. The other element is the sheep mentality. People are so willing to give up freedom and control of their lives to someone else for the promise of safety, discipline (in a good way - like the appeal of the Corps / WOW programs), a sense of belonging.
There are two problems here - megalomaniacs acting like predators. And naieve Christians acting like prey.
If predators would try that behavior in an environment without people acting like prey they would face lawsuits, physical and verbal confrontation, and worse. One thing I will say I am stronger in after my TWI experience is that I have stopped acting like prey.
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skyrider
Yeah......me too, the "seducer/deceiver meter" is fine-tuned thanks to twi.
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OperaBuff
Sheeesh. Good for Andrew getting away from there, and good for him seeking a counselor to talk with and help clarify his mind. The part that creeps me out the most in this sucker parade called Mars Hill is the voyeuristic angle; church officials wanting a young man to state in writing all of his sexual experiences. That's truly a sick request. If some other unfortunate young man were to honor that sick request and submit such a statement, he should include photographs and ask for extra credit.
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Watered Garden
"According to Andrew, at Mars Hill, the cliche “it takes two to tango” isn’t true. Why? Because Pastor Mark teaches that women are “weaker vessels,” and therefore, when a girl and boy engage in consensual sexual activity, it is always assumed that it’s the man’s fault because he failed to lead the woman (or “weaker vessel”) toward righteousness. (And everybody knows that women can’t find righteousness unless a man leads her there. Ugh."
Is this official church doctrine? If it is, I'd like to see book, chapter and verse.
I would be totally amazed that anyone would put up with this kind of nonsense if I hadn't been a TWI-bot myself. A church discipline contract? Is that even Biblical?
A few years back we attended a Mars Hill Church plant. Their church planting division is called "Acts 29" and Driscoll of course is the present of Acts 29. The young pastor and his wife worshipped the ground "Pastor Mark" walked on, much like our last branch leader and his wife worshipped the ground LCM walked on. I could see it coming from miles away and we left after we studied the statement of beliefs of that outfit.
That church plant is now studying Driscoll's new sex manual, one chapter per Sunday. Wonder how they'll teach the chapter on "positions?"
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OldSkool
That's just stupid. Never heard of that non-sense before, but hey, I never heard of a pregnancy policy until I was in the way international. Crazy though.
Well, I mean besides China. So China and the way international both have pregnancy policies.
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Steve Lortz
After reading the first post on this thread, I went and googled "Mars Hill". The name seemed to ring a bell with me, though I couldn't point to a specific reason. Maybe one of my classmates mentioned it in passing conversation.
I've had direct personal experience with two "ducks": Wierwille's TWI and wannabe direct off-shoots, and Toccini's Momentus (which included signing a "hold-harmless" contract before being allowed to participate).
It seems to me that Driscoll looks, quacks and walks like a duck. I am sad for those taken in by his quackery. He also goes to show that a cult can be a cult, even with perfectly orthodox theology.
Love,
Steve
P.S. - I remember how I came across reference to Mars Hill. I was looking for the youtube rap presentation called "Jesus vs. Religion", and I came across an excerpt with the same title by Marc Driscoll.
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socks
Momentus is the bird droppings from a seagull that flew by Jesus once on his way to the sea.
There's a lot of movement in churches to have an "open door" entry level kind of outreach and shoot for big numbers. Church for those who don't like church, that kind of thing.
Some succeed, some don't. Success in numbers doesn't mean anything worthwhile is getting done.
Driscoll shouts a mean sermon and is described as a "theology buff". Great.
I think a high risk area for pastors is when the personal desire to reach and help others pushes them to redefine scripture, to enter into doctrine and theology, areas that they aren't equipped for. I should say, some are some arent. But I've met people that have gone through some churches ministerial programs where the areas of theology sound like they are mostly skim jobs with no depth of inquiry or real learning and the emphasis was on outreach and building a church congregation (sounds familiar).
Later then in the midst of the challenges of dealing with real people, they grapple with deeper issues and aren't prepared. Rather than expand their resource base and direct their people to the right resources with other's expertise, they declare organizational autonomy and attempt to impose their new visions on the church. (sound familiar?)
I read some of the church pastors say the same thing we did years ago - "Jesus didn't have to ask a committee if it was okay to teach!"
Yeah, but he was Jesus. And He did ask the Father and do the Father's will always. I'm not going to bet my next paycheck on somebodys' word the mean well and know better.
"I meant well" wouldn't cut it with brain surgery. It's tragic some of these guys push forward so aggressively yet so scatter box in the arena's of people's emotional and spiritual lives.
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OldSkool
Yep! My thoughts exactly after reading the links left by the OP. Church discipline contract? That is absolutely crazy.
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JavaJane
OldSkool and Steve, do you consider their views towards women to be "orthodox?"
Edited to add: those views alone would label them as a cult to me.
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chockfull
Yeah - very sick. Seems many of these megalomaniac cult leaders have some very twisted sexual views - voyeuristic/secret flasher, serial rapist & use sex for power(vpw).
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Steve Lortz
I don't consider Driscoll's view on women to be genuinely Christian, but it has certainly been orthodox since the time of Augustine at the turn of the 4th/5th century. Why do you think there has been so much controversy about ordaining women?
Well, ordaining women was certainly controversial back when I was young. Nowadays, the controversy has migrated to other issues.
One of the things that originally appealed to me about TWI was that Wierwille was willing to ordain women, though I later learned that was only a temporary (and public mask) phase in development of TWI's attitude toward women.
Love,
Steve
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OldSkool
I'm not sure as I am not very well versed in orthodox Christianity. Just the Southern Baptist Church and the way international. I find their views disgusting though. When I was a wayfer I never agreed with the way men were supposed to treat their wives and never treated mine that way. We work on things together and if she wants to do something I don't want to then more power to her.
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JavaJane
I knew I could count on you guys... I think I was defining orthodox incorrectly as "mainstream".
At least in twi there is a veneer of equality of the sexes. This place is out and out overtly sexist.
...and perverted, voyeuristic, controlling...
Wait, maybe it is twi.
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skyrider
A very thin veneer.
Unless twi has vastly changed and been ordaining women in the past 10 years....
.....there were 26 ordained women in twi at one time.
Today.....as far as I know, only 3 ordained women remain in twi....
...1)Rosalie Rivenbark, 2)M@rcia Gr33ne, and 3)Cl@udette Roy@l.
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Watered Garden
The Acts 29 church plant we attended does not have women's Bible studies, fellowships or anything of the sort. Their pastor says women are gossiping, lazy, backbiting busybodies (a Driscoll quote, I believe). One of his most precious doctrines is that no female will be allowed to speak from his stage. He has had strong, intelligent women in that church and two of them (a friend of mine and me) have left. Women are to be squashed into submission by their husbands.
I don't even understand this Biblically. I understand the culture of Jesus' time on earth, but He was decent enough to women, so what's the big deal? If Driscoll thinks he is following in the footsteps of Christ, maybe he should have a peek at the Gospels and see where they lead him.
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geisha779
For those of you who are unfamiliar with Driscoll.....here is a video. I caution you, it may cause flashbacks.....it is eerily familiar. Seriously, don't watch it if screaming from the pulpit gives you too much stress.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MQNsVf-tf_8" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>
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skyrider
Sounded like many of those corps meetings.....
Some of you (blah, blah, blah)
Some of you (blah, blah, blah)
Ooooh, he's furious......the fury of the Lord, of course.
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chockfull
Driscoll looks like a fat Justin Chambers (of Grey's Anatomy fame) with a Sam Kinneson scream voice. I'm sure he's very threatening to those under his authority though :)
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Watered Garden
Now that I think about it (I've heard/seen this video before) he reminds me of a guy who for years has done furniture store commercials in this extremely loud, urgent, high-pitched castrato voice. The tag line is "PRICES ARE GREAT AT AMERICAN FREIGHT!" I always want to remove the vise grips from his externals and tell him to take a nice warm bath.
I went back and listened to the first couple of minutes...UGH! He really does sound like that commercial! He is such a cheap trick, a ham actor, and again, WHY would anyone do anything other than RUN LIKE THE VERY DEVIL in the opposite direction from this screaming little b#st&rd?
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