The cover ups and defamation of character is what sickens me the most with the way international when it comes to these victims. Otherwise, it breaks my heart to see what has happened time and again with people who simply needed help but were involved with the way international where no true help is given. Thus the results.
I personally know four people who committed suicide, two men and two women. All of them had been associated with TWI at one time or another. Only one of the suicides, though, would I consider a direct result of TWI. (He quit a high-paying job to take a staff position at HQ, only to be turned away when he and his wife arrived there.)
Yep. He went into a deep depression. After he went through his and his wife's savings, he killed himself. Ultimately, he was responsible for his choice; but that doesn't absolve TWI. His wife is doing well, these days.
i know people with problems -- mental issues -- came to the way. but that doesn't excuse. when you look for help, especially to god ( and the green card promises ), you shouldn't be worse off than when you were not in the way
okay, let god be the judge
one fact -- my dear friend wrote in his suicide note, "i wish i were the man i knew to be"
i truly believe the love of christ would have helped many of these people
i wasn't suicidal, but i can't tell you how destroyed i was when wierwille gave me the solution to getting over child sexual abuse -- having sex with him -- a real man of god -- this was supposed to heal me
.
.
.
the love of christ -- one thing would be telling people about medication and counseling ....
They simply said the job wasn't available. I get the impression they pretended that the job was never offered. It wasn't because he and his wife weren't "in good standing." They tithed, abundantly shared, and were at EVERY event. They were simply lied to.
Anyone with a conscience would have taken a step back and reevaluated the situation, looked for ways to better administer the various programs. Not Wierwille. He didn't give a rat's azz whether you lived or died as long as he got what he wanted. He showed his true colors in the way he dealt with the death of of Gary D#nH**f.
Depression sucks, big time. Compassion goes a long way. Just an understanding ear, a handshake or a(n unselfish) hug. I know, I've been there. Stress also contributes dramatically to depression. A narcissistic cult is unlikely to provide, as so many have said in their own words (telling their own story) to provide the support and does indeed compound the stress.
And Excie, no need to apologize to me for anything you've said here. :)
Wow...how can anyone with a conscience read this video and not take a HARD LOOK at the fact that they are trying to preserve something that was SO evil. "A little leaven leaventh the whole lump"...! And I wonder if any of the Offshoot groups went back and scrutinized VPW's teachings---did he teach his plagiarized information out of context??? If so, then they stand on sandy ground.
JAL used to say he didn't throw the baby out with the bath water, but I content there never was a baby in the tub!
Wow...how can anyone with a conscience read this video and not take a HARD LOOK at the fact that they are trying to preserve something that was SO evil. "A little leaven leaventh the whole lump"...! And I wonder if any of the Offshoot groups went back and scrutinized VPW's teachings---did he teach his plagiarized information out of context??? If so, then they stand on sandy ground.
JAL used to say he didn't throw the baby out with the bath water, but I content there never was a baby in the tub!
As far as JAL is concerned, the "baby" is "the Administration of the Sacred Secret", even though the Greek word translated "administration" is NEVER used in the Bible to indicate a period of time. The deaths resulting from CES were tied up with their involvement in the Momentus multi-level marketing scheme, rather than the sorts of shenanigans Wierwille pulled.
When you swear a solemn oath that you will completely ignore the connection between a program and the damage it does, you've made a BIG mistake!
As far as JAL is concerned, the "baby" is "the Administration of the Sacred Secret", even though the Greek word translated "administration" is NEVER used in the Bible to indicate a period of time. The deaths resulting from CES were tied up with their involvement in the Momentus multi-level marketing scheme, rather than the sorts of shenanigans Wierwille pulled.
Nothing I could testify to in court. My own wife unsuccessfully tried to commit suicide during the Momentus training. I heard rumors that there were several who were successful afterward in other trainings, but news like that was suppressed.
For an account of an artificially induced psychotic episode, read the following:
I didn't go through Momentus. I went through something very similar, courtesy of The Way. I don't remember what it was called or if it even had a formal name. Maybe it was a precursor of Momentus, I don't know. I can't speak to how it affected the other participants but I can tell you how it affected me. It left me profoundly depressed, with an unshakable sense of hopelessness. If I had been predisposed to suicidal thoughts, I'm quite sure it might have put me over the edge.
Thank you for your kind consideration, excathedra! We have both been doing very well for about a decade now, and I facilitate a consumer support group for the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I learned what NOT to do as a twig coordinator in TWI.
I girl I knew on the WOW field, C**dy Sh**lds, went into the 7th Way Corps. She went home for Christmas break and while her parents were out shopping, she put the barrel of a .45 in her mouth and pulled the trigger. Her parents blamed LCM.
That's all I know. She was a happy enough little camper on the WOW field, though.
A woman I knew in FLO who was also in the 7th WC told me this. She was not known to lie, at least not then.
To be very frank about this, I was not exposed to any of this type of information while in TWI. Why? Some of it was hidden and swept under the carpet by higher ups. The little that did filter through in analyzing my reactions and mindset, I honestly did not confront the information head on. I rationalized and thought that people were inflating facts because they had an agenda, that some were outright lying, and that some people had deep-seated problems that TWI was not able to help them with. My thoughts were anything other than actually confronting the facts and the truth about the situations that TWI was complicit in and many times responsible in ways that could be prosecuted under manslaughter or depraved indifference.
I believe many people currently in TWI do this consistently and have this viewpoint today. It takes a lot for people to face the truth. Usually it's only prolonged incidents of seeing where TWI really cares nothing for their lives that people start to wake up to the fact that these people in spiritual authority over them are abusing them. And usually only after it hits close to home do people wake up.
When you look at the actions of normal people around a suicidal person there are attempts to help. With TWI leadership the attempts are to distance themselves from the person and incident, to blame the person, to assign blame to another individual for their lack of believing. This is not a normal reaction for a member of the human race, little less the higher standard of a Christian lifestyle that the Bible teaches. Shunning a person with problems is about as far from the good Samaritan teaching that Jesus taught you can get.
With these suicides, those involved and those around those incidents should know that Jesus taught it is better for a millstone to be hung around someone's neck and them drown than to harm these little ones. All the teachings they have about the bema and awards stand - that is rationalization avoiding a just God. With the payback these TWI leaders have coming, their "gold medal" is going to be "cement overshoes".
I believe many people currently in TWI do this consistently and have this viewpoint today. It takes a lot for people to face the truth. Usually it's only prolonged incidents of seeing where TWI really cares nothing for their lives that people start to wake up to the fact that these people in spiritual authority over them are abusing them. And usually only after it hits close to home do people wake up.
you're welcome steve and that's really great how you and your dear wife are trying to help others
i have no doubt about what you said watered garden
and waysider
I didn't go through Momentus. I went through something very similar, courtesy of The Way. I don't remember what it was called or if it even had a formal name. Maybe it was a precursor of Momentus, I don't know. I can't speak to how it affected the other participants but I can tell you how it affected me. It left me profoundly depressed, with an unshakable sense of hopelessness. If I had been predisposed to suicidal thoughts, I'm quite sure it might have put me over the edge.
Though I remember the incident quite well, I don't recall ever hearing it called by any specific name. It was a weekend kind of deal, at limb HQ, when I was in FellowLaborers. (1975-1978) It was run by an outside source. I think Jam3Y L@u!s had a hand in it, if I remember correctly. It was one of those things where they parade you in front of the whole group and subject you to public ridicule and degradation. You couldn't really get up and walk out because it was a required part of the program and we were out in the middle of Podunk, Ohio, ya know? They just kind of sprung it on us at the last minute. They verbally chopped me up into little pieces, in front of everyone (50+ people) because I said "I suppose" instead of "I know that I know." Whatever. What bothered me the most, though, was that one of our FLO sisters "snapped" as a result of it. She became an entirely different person for the rest of the time we were in the program. If you are experiencing suicidal tendencies, that sort of thing is a horrendously bad idea.
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waysider
Just the tip of the iceberg.
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newlife
This is so very sad to have read about these people. Most I had not heard about. Who else took their own lives?
My heart just aches over these people.
I'm glad you posted this, as others need to hear about these tragedies and maybe save their own lives.
Thanks EX
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OldSkool
The cover ups and defamation of character is what sickens me the most with the way international when it comes to these victims. Otherwise, it breaks my heart to see what has happened time and again with people who simply needed help but were involved with the way international where no true help is given. Thus the results.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I personally know four people who committed suicide, two men and two women. All of them had been associated with TWI at one time or another. Only one of the suicides, though, would I consider a direct result of TWI. (He quit a high-paying job to take a staff position at HQ, only to be turned away when he and his wife arrived there.)
:( George
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OldSkool
How heartless.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Yep. He went into a deep depression. After he went through his and his wife's savings, he killed himself. Ultimately, he was responsible for his choice; but that doesn't absolve TWI. His wife is doing well, these days.
George
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Rocky
Why was he turned away from twi hq?
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excathedra
sorry rocky for interrupting you
i know people with problems -- mental issues -- came to the way. but that doesn't excuse. when you look for help, especially to god ( and the green card promises ), you shouldn't be worse off than when you were not in the way
okay, let god be the judge
one fact -- my dear friend wrote in his suicide note, "i wish i were the man i knew to be"
i truly believe the love of christ would have helped many of these people
i wasn't suicidal, but i can't tell you how destroyed i was when wierwille gave me the solution to getting over child sexual abuse -- having sex with him -- a real man of god -- this was supposed to heal me
.
.
.
the love of christ -- one thing would be telling people about medication and counseling ....
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GeorgeStGeorge
They simply said the job wasn't available. I get the impression they pretended that the job was never offered. It wasn't because he and his wife weren't "in good standing." They tithed, abundantly shared, and were at EVERY event. They were simply lied to.
George
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waysider
Anyone with a conscience would have taken a step back and reevaluated the situation, looked for ways to better administer the various programs. Not Wierwille. He didn't give a rat's azz whether you lived or died as long as he got what he wanted. He showed his true colors in the way he dealt with the death of of Gary D#nH**f.
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Rocky
Depression sucks, big time. Compassion goes a long way. Just an understanding ear, a handshake or a(n unselfish) hug. I know, I've been there. Stress also contributes dramatically to depression. A narcissistic cult is unlikely to provide, as so many have said in their own words (telling their own story) to provide the support and does indeed compound the stress.
And Excie, no need to apologize to me for anything you've said here. :)
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Rejoice
Wow...how can anyone with a conscience read this video and not take a HARD LOOK at the fact that they are trying to preserve something that was SO evil. "A little leaven leaventh the whole lump"...! And I wonder if any of the Offshoot groups went back and scrutinized VPW's teachings---did he teach his plagiarized information out of context??? If so, then they stand on sandy ground.
JAL used to say he didn't throw the baby out with the bath water, but I content there never was a baby in the tub!
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Steve Lortz
As far as JAL is concerned, the "baby" is "the Administration of the Sacred Secret", even though the Greek word translated "administration" is NEVER used in the Bible to indicate a period of time. The deaths resulting from CES were tied up with their involvement in the Momentus multi-level marketing scheme, rather than the sorts of shenanigans Wierwille pulled.
When you swear a solemn oath that you will completely ignore the connection between a program and the damage it does, you've made a BIG mistake!
Love,
Steve
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newlife
People from CES committed suicide too? I didn't know that.....where does it end?
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Rejoice
Steve...are you sure about deaths with CES?
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Steve Lortz
Nothing I could testify to in court. My own wife unsuccessfully tried to commit suicide during the Momentus training. I heard rumors that there were several who were successful afterward in other trainings, but news like that was suppressed.
For an account of an artificially induced psychotic episode, read the following:
My link
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
i'm so sorry dear steve and wife
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waysider
I didn't go through Momentus. I went through something very similar, courtesy of The Way. I don't remember what it was called or if it even had a formal name. Maybe it was a precursor of Momentus, I don't know. I can't speak to how it affected the other participants but I can tell you how it affected me. It left me profoundly depressed, with an unshakable sense of hopelessness. If I had been predisposed to suicidal thoughts, I'm quite sure it might have put me over the edge.
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Steve Lortz
Thank you for your kind consideration, excathedra! We have both been doing very well for about a decade now, and I facilitate a consumer support group for the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I learned what NOT to do as a twig coordinator in TWI.
Love,
Steve
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Watered Garden
I girl I knew on the WOW field, C**dy Sh**lds, went into the 7th Way Corps. She went home for Christmas break and while her parents were out shopping, she put the barrel of a .45 in her mouth and pulled the trigger. Her parents blamed LCM.
That's all I know. She was a happy enough little camper on the WOW field, though.
A woman I knew in FLO who was also in the 7th WC told me this. She was not known to lie, at least not then.
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chockfull
To be very frank about this, I was not exposed to any of this type of information while in TWI. Why? Some of it was hidden and swept under the carpet by higher ups. The little that did filter through in analyzing my reactions and mindset, I honestly did not confront the information head on. I rationalized and thought that people were inflating facts because they had an agenda, that some were outright lying, and that some people had deep-seated problems that TWI was not able to help them with. My thoughts were anything other than actually confronting the facts and the truth about the situations that TWI was complicit in and many times responsible in ways that could be prosecuted under manslaughter or depraved indifference.
I believe many people currently in TWI do this consistently and have this viewpoint today. It takes a lot for people to face the truth. Usually it's only prolonged incidents of seeing where TWI really cares nothing for their lives that people start to wake up to the fact that these people in spiritual authority over them are abusing them. And usually only after it hits close to home do people wake up.
When you look at the actions of normal people around a suicidal person there are attempts to help. With TWI leadership the attempts are to distance themselves from the person and incident, to blame the person, to assign blame to another individual for their lack of believing. This is not a normal reaction for a member of the human race, little less the higher standard of a Christian lifestyle that the Bible teaches. Shunning a person with problems is about as far from the good Samaritan teaching that Jesus taught you can get.
With these suicides, those involved and those around those incidents should know that Jesus taught it is better for a millstone to be hung around someone's neck and them drown than to harm these little ones. All the teachings they have about the bema and awards stand - that is rationalization avoiding a just God. With the payback these TWI leaders have coming, their "gold medal" is going to be "cement overshoes".
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OldSkool
This is a pretty apt description of my scenario.
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excathedra
you're welcome steve and that's really great how you and your dear wife are trying to help others
i have no doubt about what you said watered garden
and waysider
try to remember what that was, will you? thanks.
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waysider
Though I remember the incident quite well, I don't recall ever hearing it called by any specific name. It was a weekend kind of deal, at limb HQ, when I was in FellowLaborers. (1975-1978) It was run by an outside source. I think Jam3Y L@u!s had a hand in it, if I remember correctly. It was one of those things where they parade you in front of the whole group and subject you to public ridicule and degradation. You couldn't really get up and walk out because it was a required part of the program and we were out in the middle of Podunk, Ohio, ya know? They just kind of sprung it on us at the last minute. They verbally chopped me up into little pieces, in front of everyone (50+ people) because I said "I suppose" instead of "I know that I know." Whatever. What bothered me the most, though, was that one of our FLO sisters "snapped" as a result of it. She became an entirely different person for the rest of the time we were in the program. If you are experiencing suicidal tendencies, that sort of thing is a horrendously bad idea.
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