Ash Heap of TWI-story

[skyrider]

From linked thread:

p. 172.....Mrs. Wierwille's book Born Again to Serve

"Dr. Wierwille had designated Dr. Williams as the general overseer of The Way of India, with its headquarters in Bombay, as had been voted at the convention held on February 9 and 10 [1956]. Branches for each state of India were to be established as soon as possible, all under and by the independent national Christians without a foreign system of control. Mr. James John was to be secretary for The Way of India."

...........................................................

But...but...but....The guy was opposed to proselytizing! Here's what he said:

"I dislike proselytization in any form."

.........................................................

I guess there really was a dilemma. How can you establish branches if you are against witnessing?

Yeah.....p.172 Born Again to Serve---"Dr. Wierwille had designated Dr. Williams as the general overseer of The Way of India."

What is THIS? Narcissism run amok?.....1) Dr. Williams was president of the All-India Federation of National Churches,

2) Wierwille was a guest speaker and small-town pastor from Van Wert, Ohio, 3) Who was this pip-squeak wierwille to "designate"

anything? 4) Didn't Dr. Williams wash his hands of wierwille the minute the guest linens were washed and dried?

Just this one subject, wierwille's association with Dr. Williams.......shows glaring discrepancies of wierwille's pfal boastings

and denounces his claims. What about the TWO snowstorms that wierwille purportedly noted with NO FIRST-HAND WITNESSES? Are we

to take wierwille at his word on those?

See......that's why I've stated that Mrs. Wierwille's book has damaging claims on her husband and debunk his mogship. Some of it

just takes a little digging.....some of it just takes a little common-sense thinking.

<_<

[Twinky]

The article excerpted states the convention was 4 and 5 June 1955. Not in February 1956, as in TWI: LIL.

[skyrider]

The article excerpted states the convention was 4 and 5 June 1955. Not in February 1956, as in TWI: LIL.

In Mrs. W's book, Born Again to Serve, p.131 --- "On November 21, 22, and 23 in the city of Ujjain, Dr. Wierwille

addressed a three-day annual convention of the Terapanthi Jains, known as the Anuverat Movement. Dr. Wierwille was the

first Christian ever to be invited to address this body. The Jains are a sect of Hindus and their leader was Acharaya

Shri Tulsi, who spent much time in private telling us about the movement..."

On p.124.....The India Itinerary [1955/56] -- Bombay [11/6-18]; Kota [11/19,20]; Ujjain [11/21-26]; Ahmadabad [11/27-12/1];

Bombay [12/2-4]; Poona, Ahmadnagar, Sholapur [12/6-11]; Bombay [12/15]; Hyderabad [12/16-18]; Madras [12/19-22]; Ernakulam [12/23-26];

Kumbanad [12/27-1/2/56]; Kottayam [1/3-8]; Nagpur [1/10-12]; Raipur, Bilaspur [1/13-16]; Jabalpur [1/17-23]; Calcutta [1/24-27];

Bernares [1/28, 29]; Kanpur [1/30-2/1]; Agra [2/2], Delhi [2/3-6]; Bombay [2/8-11]

Twinky.....regarding the excerpted article, Dr. I.S. Williams was reporting that he presided over a rally of the National Christians

held at Jabalpur on the 4th and 5th June 1955. This rally in Jabalpur was five months prior to the wierwille's arrival in Bombay.

Regarding the February 1956 date in twi's The Way: LIL......I don't know. I trashed that book long ago.

When looking at the wierwille itinerary in India, one has to remember that there are alot of moving parts here: 1)VPW's version of

his grand impact on India and the Jains Convention, 2)Mrs. W's documented and sanitized version in BATS, 3)Dr. I.S. William was there

to open all the doors in every city. He was the president of All-India Federation of National Churches and commanded deep respect

everywhere he went. Wierwille was just another guest "missionary" amongst many. 4)In a three-month period, the itinerary went to 21 cities

and traveled major distances. Train rides thru the night were common.

In the end, the "big splash" of wierwille's teaching in India amounted to very little in the eyes of the Indian people. In studying

thru Dr. I.S. Williams' report and several others, missionaries and denominational movements have been proselytizing India since the

late 1800s. The vast, intricate culture of India is segregated by demographics and an interwoven fabric of sacred cities and sacred

Hindu rituals. Ujjain is about 280 miles north of Bombay and is considered one of the seven sacred cities in India.

.

Edited August 11, 2012 by skyrider

[skyrider]

In Mrs. W's book, Born Again to Serve, p.131 --- "On November 21, 22, and 23 in the city of Ujjain, Dr. Wierwille

addressed a three-day annual convention of the Terapanthi Jains, known as the Anuverat Movement. Dr. Wierwille was the

first Christian ever to be invited to address this body. The Jains are a sect of Hindus and their leader was Acharaya

Shri Tulsi, who spent much time in private telling us about the movement..."

The Terapanth Jains is a sub-sect movement of the two major sects in Jainism, Svetambara and Digambara. When wierwille

claimed to be "the first-ever christian to address the Jain Convention".....what that meant was Dr. Williams ushered vpw

in as a guest speaker to address a splinter group of the Svetambara sect of Jainism in Ujjain, India.

Not Bombay.....not Delhi.....not Calcutta.......not Jabalpur.

Ujjain, India which today has a population of some 515,000 --- Click Here

For those who might want to see the graphic outline of Jainism and its sects,

[from Wikipedia] the following link is provided. Scroll down to #10 Denominations -- Click Here - Jainism

[waysider]

How does a country preacher from Cornfield County, Ohio suddenly develop a fascination for a culture on the other side of the world that is so disparate to his own?

[skyrider]

How does a country preacher from Cornfield County, Ohio suddenly develop a fascination for a culture on the other side of the world that is so disparate to his own?

No "suddenly" about it.

Young wierwille, age 27, attended the E. Stanley Jones Ashram at Salisbury, North Carolina in 1944.

The spiritually towering "Billy Graham of India".....E. Stanley Jones, age 60, exemplified a leader

that commanded great respect. His writings were widely-read:

Books

The Christ of the Indian Road (1925)

Christ at the Round Table (1928)

The Christ of Every Road – A study in Pentecost (1930)

The Christ of the Mount – A Working Philosophy of Life (1931)

Christ and Human Suffering (1933)

Christ’s Alternative to Communism (1935) US title

Christ and Communism (1935) UK title

Victorious Living (1936) (devotional)

The Choice Before Us (1937)

Christ and Present World Issues (1937)

Along the Indian Road (1939)

Is the Kingdom of God Realism? (1940)

Abundant Living (1942) (devotional)

How to Pray (1943)

The Christ of the American Road (1944)

The Way (1946) (devotional)

......and many others.

Also, it is my personal belief......that after 11 more years of church pastoring [1955]

wierwille was ready to strike out on "his own path." Nearing 40 years old, vpw wanted

to springboard his ministry with bold colors.....going to India, like E. Stanley Jones.

Once again, wierwille was NOT original. He followed in the footsteps of other men and

plagairized liberally from them. LOOK at all Jones provided for young wierwille to

"build" his ministry.

.

Edited August 11, 2012 by skyrider

[waysider]

"I'll show those durn heathens, by golly!"

[WordWolf]

vpw's delusions of grandeur come up here.

He claimed to the corps that he once was in discussions with Oral Roberts

and Billy Graham to collaborate as EQUALS concerning matters of Christianity,

and then used their supposed pulling-out and changing their minds as evidence

other Christians can't be trusted.

"I heard that on a sns tape once.

If I recollect correct (and it WAS docvic speaking),

the claim was made that he (docvic), Billy Graham,

and Oral Roberts were going to team up.

Billy Graham would be the evangelist;

Oral Roberts would be the *healer*;

and docvic would be the teacher -- or somethng like that.

I do remember him lumping the three of them together,

then saying it fell apart because he refused to *compromise*.

Docvic and *no compromise* in the same sentence??

Oxymoron. "

=======================================

I'd be surprised if either of them ever HEARD of vpw, much less interacted

with him. vpw went to hear Oral Roberts speak-but we have no guarantee

they even so much as shook hands after Roberts taught.

In vpw's claims, however, they were peers and equals.

That's probably why vpw tried to copy Oral Roberts University and

ended up with that Emporia business, and "the Way Presents"

was a copy of something Billy Graham did.

Find something legitimate that's working, then make a cheap knockoff.

Pretty much how vpw operated.

[excathedra]

start one on when he cast out devils

i think the difficult one was named NO

"name yourself"

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

or something like that

[dabobbada]

vpw's delusions of grandeur come up here.

He claimed to the corps that he once was in discussions with Oral Roberts

and Billy Graham to collaborate as EQUALS concerning matters of Christianity,

and then used their supposed pulling-out and changing their minds as evidence

other Christians can't be trusted.

"I heard that on a sns tape once.

If I recollect correct (and it WAS docvic speaking),

the claim was made that he (docvic), Billy Graham,

and Oral Roberts were going to team up.

Billy Graham would be the evangelist;

Oral Roberts would be the *healer*;

and docvic would be the teacher -- or somethng like that.

I do remember him lumping the three of them together,

then saying it fell apart because he refused to *compromise*.

Docvic and *no compromise* in the same sentence??

Oxymoron. "

=======================================

I'd be surprised if either of them ever HEARD of vpw, much less interacted

with him. vpw went to hear Oral Roberts speak-but we have no guarantee

they even so much as shook hands after Roberts taught.

In vpw's claims, however, they were peers and equals.

That's probably why vpw tried to copy Oral Roberts University and

ended up with that Emporia business, and "the Way Presents"

was a copy of something Billy Graham did.

Find something legitimate that's working, then make a cheap knockoff.

Pretty much how vpw operated.

Yeah I remember that sunday night, I'm sure I was there in a back row, it took me by suprise. (Maybe 1974.) The statements above are exactly what the ol' croc said.

Oral got caught up with his university and faded out of the picture.

Billy got caught up with celebrity, took pictures with kings, presidents, and all kinds of the rich and famous, and faded too.

vp had a habit of going off on tangents while teaching, which often found interesting. Early on he spoke of Oral and Billy in familiar terms often enough. (The ol' croc seemed to have an easy familiarity with everyone he leached off of.)

Oral was supposed to get bogged down with his university. His sons at the time were not interested in continuing Oral's ministry so Oral, getting older, felt pressured to sell his university. The buyers were some form of methodist or somebody who didn't have the same faith healing beliefs as Oral, so Oral had to backtrack and conform to their restrictions, to his downfall.

Billy Graham became his own celebrity, but to keep his rising star he had to conform to standard evangelistic dogma. A couple times I remember, vp's tangent brag about how people who had become christian at a Graham Crusade, sometimes would write back saying "What do I do now." and the Graham staff sometimes would send them back the twi address.

[JavaJane]

A couple times I remember, vp's tangent brag about how people who had become christian at a Graham Crusade, sometimes would write back saying "What do I do now." and the Graham staff sometimes would send them back the twi address.

What???? Wow.

Really?

Just when I thought his lies couldn't shock me anymore, something else pops up.

Seriously?

[chockfull]

A couple times I remember, vp's tangent brag about how people who had become christian at a Graham Crusade, sometimes would write back saying "What do I do now." and the Graham staff sometimes would send them back the twi address.

Along with the rest of VP's bravado claims and bragging, this also is void of any substance. Graham pretty much always worked alongside local church organizations, in a cooperative manner. Those converted in Graham's teachings were referred to local Christian churches. These churches, with mainstream beliefs and practices, were much more able to cooperate and collaborate together with visiting preachers. TWI was not even on Graham's radar, other than being noted as a cult or non-Christian organization to avoid.

I'd be surprised if either of them ever HEARD of vpw, much less interacted

with him. vpw went to hear Oral Roberts speak-but we have no guarantee

they even so much as shook hands after Roberts taught.

I think in Elena Whiteside's book where VP gives his account of being led into speaking in tongues by J.E. Stiles, whose holy spirit book VP later plagiarized, VP attended an Oral Roberts event in a stadium, where Oral called him up on stage and tried to lead VP into tongues. VP spoke in Greek then Hebrew, and fooled Oral. It was proclaimed from the stage a success, but VP said he knew he was a fraud.

I'm paraphrasing this from memory.

So the conclusion drawn was that Oral had interaction with what he termed as a "Midwest preacher who was led into tongues". Outside of this, VP was small potatoes and it is doubtful he even made it onto Oral Roberts radar.

[waysider]

I think in Elena Whiteside's book where VP gives his account of being led into speaking in tongues by J.E. Stiles, whose holy spirit book VP later plagiarized, VP attended an Oral Roberts event in a stadium, where Oral called him up on stage and tried to lead VP into tongues. VP spoke in Greek then Hebrew, and fooled Oral. It was proclaimed from the stage a success, but VP said he knew he was a fraud.

I'm paraphrasing this from memory.

So the conclusion drawn was that Oral had interaction with what he termed as a "Midwest preacher who was led into tongues". Outside of this, VP was small potatoes and it is doubtful he even made it onto Oral Roberts radar.

Pg. 197

"...a piece of mail came regarding a Full Gospel Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, all the great names were going to be there, including a would-be-rising star in Pentecostalism - Oral Roberts."

.............

..............

"I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he'd introduce me to some great men. They'd lay hands on me and lead me into tongues."

"So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, 'Speak another language.' So I spoke Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought I had received and told me to speak in another language."

"So I did. I spoke in Hebrew - quoted from Genesis, and they got all excited, congratulating themselves about it."

"But in my heart, I knew I wasn't speaking in tongues...."

......................................................

......................................................

"So I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John"

Can you imagine Wierwille ever knowing enough Greek to quote the first chapter of John?...... extemporaneously??

Edited August 13, 2012 by waysider

[OldSkool]

Can you imagine Wierwille ever knowing enough Greek to quote the first chapter of John?...... extemporaneously??

He could have thrown a couple of "lo shantas" at them.

[dabobbada]

In PIFFLE, didn't he say he spoke High German at that incident?

[JavaJane]

I can see it now... it was actually in Spanish.

"Muchos burritos para mi pantalones!"

[skyrider]

Pg. 197

"...a piece of mail came regarding a Full Gospel Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, all the great names were going to be there, including a would-be-rising star in Pentecostalism - Oral Roberts."

.............

..............

"I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he'd introduce me to some great men. They'd lay hands on me and lead me into tongues."

"So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, 'Speak another language.' So I spoke Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought I had received and told me to speak in another language."

"So I did. I spoke in Hebrew - quoted from Genesis, and they got all excited, congratulating themselves about it."

"But in my heart, I knew I wasn't speaking in tongues...."

......................................................

......................................................

"So I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John"

Can you imagine Wierwille ever knowing enough Greek to quote the first chapter of John?...... extemporaneously??

Wierwille's recollection of events is derisive, vague and troubling. He uses loaded language by referring

to these "nine great men" who [all?] started praying, then three or four [which is it?] laid hands on him

and finally [really?] one of them said, "Speak another lanugage."

Pppppppfffffssstttt. I don't buy wierwille's accounting of this for one New-York-second.

[waysider]

In PIFFLE, didn't he say he spoke High German at that incident?

I'm going by memory but, my recollection is that he said he heard someone else speak in High German and recognized it.

edit:

Gee, imagine someone from western Ohio speaking in High German. What are the chances of that? <_<

Edited August 13, 2012 by waysider

[skyrider]

I going by memory but, my recollection is that he said he heard someone else speak in High German and recognized it.

Here's the takeaway in that tidbit.......wierwille interjected that distinction of "High" German in an attempt

to cement his adeptness of languages. Why, lookey here.....the mog knows Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, High German,

Low German, etc. etc.

Heck, the guy is a dog-whisperer EVEN. <_<

[OldSkool]

Wierwille's recollection of events is derisive, vague and troubling. He uses loaded language by referring

to these "nine great men" who [all?] started praying, then three or four [which is it?] laid hands on him

and finally [really?] one of them said, "Speak another lanugage."

Sounds ambiguous and very embellished. So, I guess by reason, if the Apostle Paul needed Ananias lay hands on him to get him straight, then in all of Wierwille's MOGFODAT-ness it would take at least nine great men.

These "great" men. Were they great in stature, fat, or exceptional in some other category. WTF made them great.

Or just great because God brought them to Wierwille?

[skyrider]

Sounds ambiguous and very embellished. So, I guess by reason, if the Apostle Paul needed Ananias lay hands on him to get him straight, then in all of Wierwille's MOGFODAT-ness it would take at least nine great men.

These "great" men. Were they great in stature, fat, or exceptional in some other category. WTF made them great.

Or just great because God brought them to Wierwille?

Or......was its intent to be derisive and ridicule these "great" men?

Wierwille went rogue and divisive in pitting his mogship against the church establishment and assorted denominations.

These "nine great men" didn't know how to lead wierwille into speaking in tongues. They tried, but they didn't know.

Yet, a few years later.....wierwille, supposedly, "tapped the resources for the more abundant life" and could lead

others into manifesting via pfal.

He deceptively labels them as "great men"......only to pull the rug out from underneath their greatness. And, one is

left with the implication, that if "great men" could NOT do it......HOW GREAT IS WIERWILLE TO ACTUALLY DO IT??!!

[OldSkool]

He deceptively labels them as "great men"......only to pull the rug out from underneath their greatness. And, one is

left with the implication, that if "great men" could NOT do it......HOW GREAT IS WIERWILLE TO ACTUALLY DO IT??!!

Good point. It's sounds so bogus that this would have been such a big event in Wierwille's supposed journey in MOGFODATdom that he doesn't name them. If they were so great why not drop names? He sure did that with others to gain credibility, even when it was obvious that some of the others washed their hands of Wierwille rather quickly. Dr. Williams for example.

Could it be that the supposed great men were simply Robert's helpers? Working with hundreds through out the day. Wierwille would have been just another face.

[waysider]

PFAL...Pg. 30

...."He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment to tell Mrs. Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event he had ever witnessed...."

..................................................

He had supposedly just experienced a life altering event but, he doesn't remember this man's name and has to refer to him as "so-and-so/the member of Parliament"??

[OldSkool]

PFAL...Pg. 30

...."He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment to tell Mrs. Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event he had ever witnessed...."

..................................................

He had supposedly just experienced a life altering event but, he doesn't remember this man's name and has to refer to him as "so-and-so/the member of Parliament"??

Shows a pattern of unverifiable claims, IMO anyways.

[chockfull]

PFAL...Pg. 30

...."He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment to tell Mrs. Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event he had ever witnessed...."

..................................................

He had supposedly just experienced a life altering event but, he doesn't remember this man's name and has to refer to him as "so-and-so/the member of Parliament"??

Or he is deliberately trying to remove evidence that could be traced and verified by a third party. If he published the man's name, then someone could ask the man if this account was true. VP was probably afraid that he would deny his account of the events, so went with the "so-and-so" route, but conveniently kept in the "member of Parliament in New Delhi" so that all of us youngsters would be unduly impressed.

VP's accounts of major life-changing events seem to change with his storytelling over time. Especially his accounts of revelation. This is highly suspect, especially when scrutinized by those who have seen the genuine article. I know personally that the details of my accounts of revelation and/or healing do not change over time - they have the same strange, seemingly random, and insignificant details they did years ago when they happened.

I would definitely say from my experience and the facts surrounding VP that I believe he fabricated the larger part of the stories he told us over the years in teachings, books, and classes.

Edited August 13, 2012 by chockfull