Actually kind of humorous there, Mike, with the walking on a boat analogy.
This chaos vs renewed mind binary is a bit unsettling, though. Not much option in there. It you're completely out of control the alternative is being controlled?
Also, The Bible is not saying "there's a spirit called Leviathan that specifically works on alcoholics". Analogies can be made about the effects of alcohol on the mind and life, but there is no spirit of leviathan the alcohol guru in the Bible.
I see two connections between Leviathan and alcohol.
One is how a drunk looks as he tries to walk in a straight line. It looks like someone trying to walk in a boat that is rocking on the high seas, being rocked by a sea monster. It also feels like the high seas to a drunk who attempts to walk on dry land.
The other connection occurs in the Book of Revelation where it says that in the future there will be no more sea. That is a Hebrew idiom for no more WAVERING of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed. Add to this the passages about Peter looking at the waves as he walked on and becoming fearful.
Drunks are notorious for having a tempest tossed mind, full of wavering.
Lambano, laballo, ballo, ball, throw , throw it out there... That's it! That's it! You're speaking the wonderful works of self delusion!
Lambano, laballo, ballo, ball, throw , throw it out there... That's it! That's it! You're speaking the wonderful works of self delusion!
Translating the Bible into the common language of the people and the printing press were big deals at one time.
In The Way for some reason it was decided only the MOG could read. Or was the decoded behind the secret messages. Cause God forbid someone read for themselves without parroting the MOG.
I see two connections between Leviathan and alcohol.
One is how a drunk looks as he tries to walk in a straight line. It looks like someone trying to walk in a boat that is rocking on the high seas, being rocked by a sea monster. It also feels like the high seas to a drunk who attempts to walk on dry land.
The other connection occurs in the Book of Revelation where it says that in the future there will be no more sea. That is a Hebrew idiom for no more WAVERING of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed. Add to this the passages about Peter looking at the waves as he walked on and becoming fearful.
Drunks are notorious for having a tempest tossed mind, full of wavering.
A) One can construct a connection between any 2 things, with a little creativity.
B) The verse you cited was Revelation 21:1. The word "sea" there, in the Greek, was "thalassa." Seems the New Testament usages of it are all literal of the type of body of water, a literal "sea." Strong's Concordance says nothing about it being metaphorical anywhere. Checking the usages of the word "sea" in the Old Testament reflect this also. Do you have a source for claiming that there's a "Hebrew idiom" that "sea" means "wavering of the mind" ?
If you don't, all of that is just exercise of the imagination.
A) One can construct a connection between any 2 things, with a little creativity.
B) The verse you cited was Revelation 21:1. The word "sea" there, in the Greek, was "thalassa." Seems the New Testament usages of it are all literal of the type of body of water, a literal "sea." Strong's Concordance says nothing about it being metaphorical anywhere. Checking the usages of the word "sea" in the Old Testament reflect this also. Do you have a source for claiming that there's a "Hebrew idiom" that "sea" means "wavering of the mind" ?
If you don't, all of that is just exercise of the imagination.
Drunkenness results in collateral damage, wherein is excess. I was taking the first part of Mike's creativity as just having pun. Since only the Father can be creative, it's just a Dad joke.
Do you have any source outside of Wierwille's claims, Mike?
There are plenty of Jewish Bible/Torah/practice sites where you could check information.
chabad.org is one such site. Google also Jewish theology, or Jewish practice and belief, or some other reasonable combination to take you to a wide choice of sites.
Do you have any source outside of Wierwille's claims, Mike?
There are plenty of Jewish Bible/Torah/practice sites where you could check information.
chabad.org is one such site. Google also Jewish theology, or Jewish practice and belief, or some other reasonable combination to take you to a wide choice of sites.
You said it - you support your assertion.
I'm happy with my documentation and associations on this matter. The ball is in your (plural) court.
But it brings up a much more significant, and oft repeated point of mine. Look how no one here had any memory or consciousness of us being taught in that WWAY footnote that in the Book of Revelations the "no more sea" means no more wavering.
How many other footnotes or significant passages have you forgotten were in PFAL?
You people reject the spiritual good that was delivered to you, and want to focus on the messenger's flesh.
I find that grads everywhere forget what was taught them long ago, or were not spiritually mature to receive it all long ago.
There is a lot to be found by those meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL.
I see two connections between Leviathan and alcohol.
One is how a drunk looks as he tries to walk in a straight line. It looks like someone trying to walk in a boat that is rocking on the high seas, being rocked by a sea monster. It also feels like the high seas to a drunk who attempts to walk on dry land.
The other connection occurs in the Book of Revelation where it says that in the future there will be no more sea. That is a Hebrew idiom for no more WAVERING of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed. Add to this the passages about Peter looking at the waves as he walked on and becoming fearful.
Drunks are notorious for having a tempest tossed mind, full of wavering.
The footnote on page 91 of The Word’s Way is an ancillary piece of information that wierwille put there to further explain the sea reference in Revelation 21:1 “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
wierwille’s footnote on page 91 of The Word’s Way reads as follows: “no more sea,” is a Hebraism referring to “no more wavering, confusion, trouble or unrighteousness.”
Granted, wierwille’s footnote does have the word “wavering” but I fail to see the connection to alcohol and drunks as you say nor do I see how it gives support to what you said about it being a ‘Hebrew idiom of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed’ :
Mike said: “I see two connections between Leviathan and alcohol.
One is how a drunk looks as he tries to walk in a straight line. It looks like someone trying to walk in a boat that is rocking on the high seas, being rocked by a sea monster. It also feels like the high seas to a drunk who attempts to walk on dry land.
The other connection occurs in the Book of Revelation where it says that in the future there will be no more sea. That is a Hebrew idiom for no more WAVERING of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed. Add to this the passages about Peter looking at the waves as he walked on and becoming fearful.
Drunks are notorious for having a tempest tossed mind, full of wavering.”
the following comment is offered by Revelation 21:1 …’there was no longer any sea.’ Some sources spoke of the purification of creation; others, of its transformation; still others, of its destruction and rebirth. Because the sea disappears, Revelation at least evokes transformation, though scholars debate how literally Revelation intends its different images. Some scholars associate the sea with evil (or chaos, as much earlier in ancient Near Eastern thought), with death (20:13) or with the beast (13:1), but it appears positively in some other passages in Revelation (5:13; 15:2). Perhaps the sea disappears here because Isaiah’s new heavens and earth do not specifically mention it. More likely it is replaced with the joyful river of life from God’s throne (for the righteous; 22:1) and possibly the lake of (for the wicked; 21:8).
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Early Christian commentaries have had similar ideas of chaos and death as those noted in the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible…to give you a taste here’s
The inside jacket talks about the postcritical revival of the early commentary tradition known as glossa ordinaria – a text artfully elaborated with ancient and authoritative reflections and insights to supplement modern commentaries by framing them with notable interpretive voices that have long since sustained the church…on pages 354 and 355 of this volume it provides the following comments by Augustine a theologians & philosopher and Andrew of Caesarea:
Revelation 21:1b no more sea
The restless and stormy and stormy life of people will pass away. Augustine. It is hard to know whether [the sea] will be dried up by the terrible heat of those flames or will itself be transformed into something better. For though we read that there will be a new heaven and earth, I cannot recall having ever seen mentioned a new sea, save perhaps in the verse of the Apocalypse, “sea of glass similar to crystal” . Yet in that passage John was not talking about the end of the world; moreover, he did not claim to have seen a sea proper, but something like a sea. Still, as prophecy is prone to intermingle the literal and metaphorical and so veil its meaning, it may be that in our present text, “and the sea is no more,” John was speaking of the identical sea he spoke of earlier: “and the sea gave up the dead that were in it.” For then, this world of ours, made restless and stormy by the lives of men (and hence, figuratively, called the sea), will have passed away. City of God 20.16.
There will be no more need of commerce. Andrew of Caesarea. Concerning the sea, it says that “the sea was no more.” For what use is there of a sea when people no longer need to sail it or to acquire by means of it the goods grown in regions lying far away? Moreover the “sea” is symbolic of the turbulence and unsettledness of life, and so there will be no need of it when there remains no trouble or fear among the saints. Commentary on the Apocalypse 21.1
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~
It is inconclusive if Mike actually thought he had a wierwille reference to support his ideas – or that he just imagined wierwille’s reference said more than it did – or that he was merely bluffing and hoped no one would look up the Word’s Way page 91 footnote.
I’ve become somewhat of a softie – and now like to give folks a chance to save face. Perhaps Mike would like to revise his comments intermingling Leviathan and alcohol, drunken pedestrians, tempest tossed drunken minds and the supposed Hebrew idiom for no more WAVERING of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed.
For some reason the scene in Forrest Gump came to mind – where Lieutenant Dan shows up at the dock to say hi to Forrest coming in on his shrimp boat; Lt. Dan explains to Forrest “I’m here to try out my sea legs.” To which Forrest replies back “Well, you ain't got no legs, Lieutenant Dan.”…
Revelation 21:1b Revised Movie Dialog Translation “and there were no more sea legs”.
= = = = =
1 hour ago, Mike said:
I'm happy with my documentation and associations on this matter. The ball is in your (plural) court.
But it brings up a much more significant, and oft repeated point of mine. Look how no one here had any memory or consciousness of us being taught in that WWAY footnote that in the Book of Revelations the "no more sea" means no more wavering.
How many other footnotes or significant passages have you forgotten were in PFAL?
You people reject the spiritual good that was delivered to you, and want to focus on the messenger's flesh.
I find that grads everywhere forget what was taught them long ago, or were not spiritually mature to receive it all long ago.
There is a lot to be found by those meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL.
You needn’t remind me of remembering stuff that wierwille taught! I still have all my PFAL books and his other work, as well as Lifelines, and a 12 year accumulation of Way Mags, Sunday Night Teaching Tapes, my corps journals (plural!), corps night teachings, my own handwritten notes from corps tapes – since I had easy access while in residence, not to mention for 2 years in residence we had to live, breathe and sleep PFAL…so don’t try to bluff me – I was a supreme wierwille-worshipper! And don’t forget – I’m not letting those “precious memories” of toxic-nonsense-doctrine go to waste – one of the big reasons I post at Grease Spot – is to help others escape the nonsense
“here we are at the umpteenth session of the ALLEGED 2nd wave of returning to PFAL has started…in case anyone is wondering about these long and detailed critiques of mine and why I am going full steam ahead – it’s because my target audience are the PFAL-fans mentioned in the very first post on this thread – which includes more than the fans that the thread-starter knows personally – it also includes current followers of TWI and also the offshoots…and really ANY PFAL grad who has a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of PFAL to fulfill the goals/claims/promises/benefits that “The Teacher” (wierwille) stated AND the perception of inconsistencies between the actions of “The Teacher” (wierwille) and the ideals he supposedly represented…
I am trying to be more dispassionate as well as making more of an effort to suppress my weak attempts at comedy and sarcasm – which is a toughie for a class-clown wannabe. Considering my own experience of leaving TWI and what led me to reevaluate their dogma - it was usually persuasive discussions using calm words, logic, and evidence – whether it was from fellow way corps who had already left before me, old friends I knew before I got into TWI, or other EXTERNAL sources like books on systematic theology, psychology, philosophy, critical thinking and websites like Grease Spot Café.
This post was a long time coming – “inspired” by one of my favorite sessions of the PFAL class - battle of the senses (session 6, I think – funny how much I still remember). If I would give this post a parody title, I’d call it battle of the senseless…or maybe YOUR intuition and cognitive skills versus wierwille’s “revelations” …I also thought it could be called PFAL’s sedative to YOUR intuition and cognitive skills. “
end of my quote
~ ~ ~ ~
In case you haven’t figured out my strategy by now – here it is in a nutshell…I’m really not concerned with changing your mind or winning you over to my way of thinking. That’s not to say you’re hopeless – cuz I believe if someone is still alive there’s always hope…My intent is not even to win others over to my way of thinking…All I want is to inspire folks to do their best and clearest thinking…anyway - if we all thought alike then no one is really thinking.
and here’s one more piece of unsolicited advice: maybe you should refrain from that sloppy regurgitation, imaginative elaboration and deceitful misquoting of wierwille-theology when you try to bolster his memory or promote some whacky idea - you wind up actually making wierwille sound worse than he already is…you’re not being a good PR agent for the cause.
That’s all for now -
Edited by T-Bone tales from the drunken editor lost at sea
I'm happy with my documentation and associations on this matter. The ball is in your (plural) court.
But it brings up a much more significant, and oft repeated point of mine. Look how no one here had any memory or consciousness of us being taught in that WWAY footnote that in the Book of Revelations the "no more sea" means no more wavering.
How many other footnotes or significant passages have you forgotten were in PFAL?
You people reject the spiritual good that was delivered to you, and want to focus on the messenger's flesh.
I find that grads everywhere forget what was taught them long ago, or were not spiritually mature to receive it all long ago.
There is a lot to be found by those meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL.
This post sounds condescending and aggressive, Mike. Before I thought you were joking. This is the closest to LCM I've read in your posts.
Spirit of Leviathan pertaining to alcohol has no Biblical basis.
Why look outside the box when we have this to guide us?
2 Petered out 1:3
His divine power VPW hath given unto us all things thatpertainuntolife and godliness, through the knowledge of Him PFAL that hath called us to glory and virtue.
Why look outside the box when we have this to guide us?
2 Petered out 1:3
His divine power VPW hath given unto us all things thatpertainuntolife and godliness, through the knowledge of Him PFAL that hath called us to glory and virtue.
I'm happy with my documentation and associations on this matter. The ball is in your (plural) court. But it brings up a much more significant, and oft repeated point of mine. Look how no one here had any memory or consciousness of us being taught in that WWAY footnote that in the Book of Revelations the "no more sea" means no more wavering. How many other footnotes or significant passages have you forgotten were in PFAL? You people reject the spiritual good that was delivered to you, and want to focus on the messenger's flesh. I find that grads everywhere forget what was taught them long ago, or were not spiritually mature to receive it all long ago. There is a lot to be found by those meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL.
Mike''s last line: “meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL”
Ah yes They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.” from II Peter 2:22 NLT
…Peter devoted his words to false teachers who masqueraded in religious garb and leading new converts astray…to make this apropos to Mike’s coachable grads it’s saying fools are stubbornly inflexible and will eat regurgitated PFAL even if it’s disgusting and even though they may have left TWI and washed off wierwille’s muddied theology they come back for more sludge.
I’m not sure if this is an issue of folks talking past each other…I’m inclined to think it’s Mike’s AUTOMATIC defense strategy - no matter what someone has said about wierwille.
If someone points out wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist, Mike counters with they’re “focusing on the messenger's flesh.” If someone brings up wierwille was a drunkard, Mike counters with they’re “focusing on the messenger's flesh.” If someone brings up wierwille was a known sexual predator, Mike counters with they’re “focusing on the messenger's flesh.” ...and even if someone makes a theological argument that wierwille misinterpreted II Peter 1:20, 21 - Mike just might counter with they're "focusing on the messenger's flesh."
On another thread I happened to mention wierwille’s unabashed plagiarism and flagrant disregard for copyright laws and here was Mike’s response on Second Wave" of returning to PFAL has started:
Mike said: Such righteous anti-plagarism is really a joke to me. Has your mission in life really descended to fight for "Scholars' Rights" and Proper Crediting.
Are you able to think outside that box? It reveals to me a level of desperation in wanting to criticize VPW.
If I didn't think this was a terrible affliction that limits you in life, I'd consider it as hilarious as what happens to Flat Earthers.
I think you and others here have whipped yourself into a 25 year fit of righteous anti-plagarism, and lost track of real priorities in life and living.
But it's your life and you choose what is really important to you.
I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me.
Let's talk about more important issues, OK.
How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?
End of Mike quote
~ ~ ~
To which I replied on the same day a little later – here:
T-Bone said: Wow Mike I did a double take reading your post!
And here’s why: instead of your typical beating around the bush on the plagiarism issue – you talked about it directly, revealing your true feelings – and for that I thank you !!!!!
I sincerely mean that – I’m not being sarcastic.
Mike said, ‘I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me. Let's talk about more important issues, OK.’
Now it’s crystal clear to me what your opinion is of copyrights, plagiarism, proper citation, real scholars and what's due them – and I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of all that – but I will respect your opinion and hopefully you will understand I have a much higher opinion on them than you do.
As far as us talking about more important issues – we’ll have to come to some agreement on what is more important. As I’ve already indicated there will be some differences of opinion as to what matters have greater significance or value – hopefully we can amicably figure that out...
since your last words were “How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?” I figure we can start there...I’m not sure if you said that sarcastically or if you are indicating that is the first of the more important issues you want to talk about...if you intended to convey contempt...well, let’s just leave it at that. If you really do want to talk about speaking in tongues maybe that would warrant a new thread – I’ve already expressed my opinion on speaking in tongues on a few threads already but I always enjoy the opportunity to reiterate my views.
In closing, I wanted to clarify my intentions and the thought behind my posts. I was not making fun of you. My target is usually wierwille and all the deceitful tactics he utilized. That is an important issue to me because in my opinion lying and stealing on a grand scale is wrong. Obviously, you have a different opinion on that.
End of T-Bone quote
~ ~ ~ ~
On Sunday Feb 6th 2022 on that same thread I made two posts – in one I covered a bunch of stuff: how wierwille in plagiarizing Bullinger had actually screwed up what Bullinger got right on II Peter 1:20,21, AND how he also copied what Bullinger got wrong – the 4 crucified with Jesus theory, and I also got into when doing theology what are the degrees of authority in theological statements…
and in a quick follow-up post hot on the heels of analyzing PFAL’s problematic, misleading and shifty methods of Bible interpretation, I mentioned a few books that have an honest and simple approach to interpreting the Bible as well as getting a basic idea of what theology and doctrine are all about, as well as mentioning the four major theories that scholars have come up with to try and explain the limits or extent of HOW inspiration worked > see my reply here
Now mind you, on the 2nd wave thread - starting from my January 23, 2022 post where I decided to zero in on wierwille’s incompetence and theological-sounding-double-talk - or (to convert it into Mike’s currency i.e. something of supposed value that Mike uses in an exchange of ideas with other Grease Spotters) I decided to devalue the "wierwille-dollar" by limiting myself to criticizing ONLY wierwille’s lack of competence as a researcher and teacher AND his “proficiency” in theological- sounding-language that appears to be earnest and meaningful but in fact is a mixture of sense and nonsense – and I kept my aim locked in on that for some 14 posts ! I didn’t get into any of his bad behavior – in other words I did NOT “ focus on the messenger's flesh.”
What I find utterly perplexing is that Mike did NOT respond to any of my 14 posts that analyzed PFAL nor did he try to defend wierwille or even address any of my detailed critiques on wierwille’s ideology – nothing except about my post on Sunday where I gave a brief description of the four major theories of inspiration on HOW the Bible got written… something in that got a response from Mike - that following Monday Mike asks me for a tiny summary of plenary verbal inspiration – here - where Mike quotes me saying
T-Bone said:
“I believe wierwille's theology would have been based on either # 2 Dictation theory or # 4 Plenary verbal inspiration theory”
end of T-Bone quote
...and then Mike says to me :
Mike said: “VPW definitely did NOT ascribe to the Divine Dictation model. He says so in the Corps Thessalonians tapes when he hits verse 1:1 in both of the Epistles. The reason for this, in those two opening verses, is due to those verses making it appear like Paul AND Timothy AND Silus were authors. In those Corps tapes VPW implies that Divine Dictation CAN happen, but GENERALLY the revelation is not given that way.”
End of Mike quote
~ ~ ~
What’s funny is I had JUST GIVEN a tiny summary of the plenary verbal inspiration theory in my post he had quoted!
You know, for a guy that gets on Grease Spotters for missing details or forgetting details of the great things in PFAL – Mike misses out on stuff right in front of him…I don’t know - - are PFAL-blinders that obscuring?
My point in reviewing some details of my 14 posts on the 2nd wave thread is that I’ve noticed Mike had nothing to say when I carefully, technically, and logically evaluated in a detailed and analytical way some of wierwille’s dubious teachings and speculations and his slipshod methods of interpreting Scripture.
My guess is that maybe he could not muster up any tenable counterarguments to my points. Now if you mention anything derogative about wierwille’s character - THAT appears to give him an excuse to avoid addressing wierwille’s ineptitude and deceitfulness and so he launches the countermeasure that the one who is criticizing wierwille’s behavior is “focusing on the messenger's flesh.”
It’s kind of amusing to watch him go on a pro-PFAL-rant like on this thread with:
Mike said:
“How many other footnotes or significant passages have you forgotten were in PFAL? You people reject the spiritual good that was delivered to you, and want to focus on the messenger's flesh. I find that grads everywhere forget what was taught them long ago, or were not spiritually mature to receive it all long ago. There is a lot to be found by those meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL.”
End of Mike quote
~ ~ ~ ~
Seems like Mike makes a big effort to reinterpret, exaggerate, and misquote wierwille, and often alludes to something wierwille said in PFAL, corps tapes or whatever that supposedly supports Mike’s “thesis of PFAL being the greatest thing”– but he makes very little effort to have an actual normal conversation with someone.
As I mentioned in my previous post I WAS a supreme wierwille worshipper – NOT anymore though – BUT - I still have all my PFAL books and his other works, Lifelines – his quotes , a 12 year accumulation of Way Mags, Sunday Night Teaching Tapes, my corps journals (plural!), corps night teachings, my own handwritten notes from corps tapes, 2 years in-residence of living, breathing and sleeping PFAL…I honestly believe I have a more accurate knowledge and better understanding of wierwille's ideology and even PFAL than Mike does – and because I am free of the cultic-mindset driven into me by way corps indoctrination, my cognitive skills are no longer impaired …
…I’ll go even one better…unlike any diehard PFAL-fans, I believe any “newly-minted” PFAL grad will probably still have a healthy mind and will able to think normally since they haven’t yet succumbed to TWI’s long term process of inculcating a person with speculative and dubious ideas, debilitating and self-destructive attitudes, cognitive dissonance and mind-dulling methodologies…
...the road to indoctrination is not shock therapy but rather a gradual immersion… …
it’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink...
Looking back on my own experience - but now in a healthier frame of mind (intellect and emotions now free of the influence and coercion of a cult) I find it extremely sad and almost laughable (if it were not for the wake of destruction left by the lifestyle and ideology that cult leaders promote) that there’s still some diehard PFAL-fans out there…
what qualifies wierwille or any of these cult-leaders of TWI to teach about the Bible, train people to counsel others or to speak authoritatively about any of the important matters of life?
…so I say once again - don’t try to bluff me – I WAS a supreme wierwille-worshipper! And don’t forget – I’m not letting those “precious memories” of toxic-nonsense-doctrine go to waste – one of the big reasons I post at Grease Spot – is to help others escape the nonsense…so I gotta break it down on how harmful and controlling cults work…
In any of my posts it was never my intention to convert anyone to my way of thinking – I just want to challenge folks to do their best and clearest thinking…individuality is a good thing…
...if everyone thinks alike on everything from interpreting the Bible to living the Christian lifestyle, to politics, to priorities, to managing finances, to what one thinks of “natural man music”, to feeling obligated to highly esteem leadership and chose “the ministry” over family and friends, to feeling compelled to give of their finances to “God’s ministry”, to ignoring red flags, intuition, gut feelings, logic, and common sense - - - they just might be in a pseudo-Christian cult that’s also probably harmful and controlling…and it’s initials just might be The Way International.
…My posts are an honest narrative of my experiences, observations and analysis of things wierwille said, wrote and did – and it’s the truth! and if you were way corps YOU WERE THERE TOO and so you KNOW the things that I've said are true !
And I’m not talking about the persona of “Doctor Wierwille” and the pristine image of him packaged in PFAL-propaganda… diehard PFAL-fans still have the wool pulled over their eyes…unfortunately it usually takes being a devoted follower and joining the way corps to see the dark side of wierwille – the supreme hypocrite offstage and in all his glory …when wierwille was not doing his “man of god act” he was in his element – in the zone he was comfortable showing off the “freedom he had in Christ”, being an example of the ideal believer who so renewed his mind that whatever he did it was not sin to him – he excelled at that…because he was just being himself…whenever he sexually molested women he’d say stuff like “this is lockbox, honey…Most believers just wouldn’t understand what you and I did.” Boy, isn’t that the truth !!!!
Just to be clear my observations, comments, criticisms and arguments from Scripture and logic are debatable – and are open for debate. What is NOT debatable: anything wierwille wrote, said or did – because it’s documented in books, magazines, newsletters, recorded on tape in teachings or witnessed by those present.
What is up for argument is trying to guess at wierwille’s motivation or analyze his use of Scripture to justify an action or to surmise any unintended consequences from what he wrote, said or did.
On the 2nd wave thread, I was upfront and honest about who is my target audience being the PFAL-fans Mike mentioned in the very first post on the 2nd wave thread – which includes more than the alleged fans that he supposedly knows personally – it also includes current followers of TWI and also the offshoots…and really ANY PFAL grad who has a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of PFAL to fulfill the goals/claims/promises/benefits that “The Teacher” (wierwille) stated AND the perception of inconsistencies between the actions of “The Teacher” (wierwille) and the ideals he supposedly represented…
…I wish Mike was upfront and honest on threads…instead, it’s like playing a dodgeball game with him. When someone tries to hit Mike up for a reasonable explanation of some PFAL “truth” – Mike dodges by complaining about how all the arguments and documentation that he already did on the subject were lost in the archives of Grease Spot Café…this is part of my reasoning to keep referring to another thread (2nd Wave) on this thread – so Grease Spotters have some sense of continuity with Mike’s dodgeball antics…the topics may change – Mike may consider various threads forever “in play” as he dodges and weaves across threads in the cyberspace-time-continuum .
you know, I don’t mean to brag but if all the stuff I’ve written about criticizing wierwille, his ideology, analyzing PFAL, way corps program, TWI’s “theories and practice” were lost due to a major glitch in Grease Spot’s server – I could write it all up again in a heartbeat – because it’s a part of my life story…I didn’t make this $hit up. I did NOT plagiarize someone else’s whacky cult adventure…It’s all in my head and heart! I don’t even wish I could forget any of it – and why I haven’t thrown out all my Way books, tapes, notes, etc. – BECAUSE I’m still processing all of it and continue to glean life-lessons of what believing in nonsense will do to your life…there’s many more lessons to be learned…and some of which I want to pass on to other poor souls who guzzled down the Kool-Aid.
That’s all for now – the ball is in your court, Mike – maybe one of these days you’ll quit playing dodgeball and take appropriate action like a responsible player in a tennis game…you’ve been served.
I’m not sure if this is an issue of folks talking past each other…I’m inclined to think it’s Mike’s AUTOMATIC defense strategy - no matter what someone has said about wierwille.
It's likely both. Talking past each other is the opposite of active listening. People don't listen to what they don't want to hear.
If the language is cultspeak, does that mind have the option to even process, interpret, or express other modes of thought?
Interesting question, Bolshevik !
Imagine if two people from two different cults strike up a conversation.
I’ve actually experienced that when I was a WOW in 1976 in D.C. …I was street witnessing (of course I was ) in our neighborhood and met a friendly young man by a small park. He seemed really attentive to everything I had to say after I told him why I was out walking in the neighborhood.
He invites me to his home nearby (another good sign I’ve got a fish on the line). I go there – and there’s another guy living with him. My “new friend” explains to his housemate about me being a WOW ambassador on an outreach mission.
Then it all happened so fast – I’m not sure how his housemate segued – or should I say took over the conversation – I was no longer the fisherman – I was the fish being reeled in by a professional fisherman. I had only been in TWI a little over a year – and this guy was all over the place in the Bible. If I butted in to ask a question – he had an answer.
I was not familiar with any cults, nor did I realize I was actually in a cult myself – but as he continued his spiel my brain had a harder and harder time trying to process where he was going.
I kept thinking this is getting weird cuz he was now talking about America being in Bible prophecy. But when he gets to Colossians 1:27 “To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” I felt at ease cuz I’m familiar with that from PFAL.
And then he pulls a “pop quiz” on me – he asked me “and what do we call the American flag?” I froze – then answered “uhm – the American flag?” and he says, “Old Glory” – then the rest was a blur as he threw Bible verses and ideas at me to show me Rev. Sun Myung Moon was the Messiah. Yikes! Never heard of this stuff before. I don’t even remember how I quickly excused myself from their home.
After that I was trigger shy for a while – whenever I was witnessing, I would size up someone the best I could to see if they gave off a Moonie-vibe or just some know-more-Bible-than-me-vibe – I felt most comfortable if I knew I could control the conversation - if I sensed something I'd suggest to my witnessing partner that they handle this one.
I like to call my little story Clash of the Cultists.
To answer your question, Bolshevik – if both parties are trying to communicate in two different cult-speak, the options for either person to process, interpret, or express other modes of thought are probably severely limited.
To answer your question, Bolshevik – if both parties are trying to communicate in two different cult-speak, the options for either person to process, interpret, or express other modes of thought are probably severely limited.
That was an interesting story. I was thinking cultie to non cultie. But cultie to cultie is funny!
Cults have a malignant narcissist at the core, so Mr. Sun-and-Moon and Dr. PeePee propably spoke a "common core" language.
That was an interesting story. I was thinking cultie to non cultie. But cultie to cultie is funny!
Cults have a malignant narcissist at the core, so Mr. Sun-and-Moon and Dr. PeePee propably spoke a "common core" language.
I bet Rev. Moon had his own leadership training program too – so yeah, Moon and wierwille probably did have a common corps language – what’s the Korean word for “indoctrination”?
And you got me thinking…wierwille said “The Word” takes the place of the absent Christ and Rev. Moon was the absent Christ - - seems like there was a missed opportunity for a partnership.
Now, let’s put that through the PFAL-reverse-engineering-translator – first I say the magic words: lambano…laballo…ballo…throw it in low…lo and behold…then
Jueeb…sounds like dweeb…
dweeb…a boring, studious, or socially inept person…
yup – sounds like someone who has been indoctrinated.
Dweeb (드위브) is a pet food/ pet supply company, located in Seoul. So, yeah, your point still stands. Associating with them will assure your life will "go to the dogs".
And that, my friends, is how a word study can lead you to somewhere you never expected.
Dweeb (드위브) is a pet food/ pet supply company, located in Seoul. So, yeah, your point still stands. Associating with them will assure your life will "go to the dogs".
And that, my friends, is how a word study can lead you to somewhere you never expected.
yes yes both dog and dweeb are in Da Werd.
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit,soa fool returneth to his folly.
Vomit of course being a result of alcohol . . .
Edited by Bolshevik putting post back on topic . . . ish
12 step program…the 12 sessions of PFAL…discerning of spirits…the ability to find Drambuie in the enormous selection offered at Dweeb & Leviathan’s Wine and Spirits where you’ll also find a wide variety of cocktail mixers. Cocktail mixers make it easy to create delicious and festive cocktails to guzzle down while on a 5-minute break from “the class”; try their Malignant Narcissist Mixer - a psychological elixir guaranteed to change, enhance, exaggerate, and interpolate wavelengths and languages so your mords get wixed up. This hybrid potion is an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the Malignant Narcissist! Or experiment with your own concoction - just add your favorite spirit and enjoy. If you don’t shop at Dweeb & Leviathan’s Wine and Spirits you’re barking up the wrong tree.
This ad paid for by The Critical Besmirch, Screeching and Felonious Misery of Doctor I-Know-You-Are-But-What-Am-Not.
Edited by T-Bone Ignoring the topic and continuing the loop de loop
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chockfull
In many ways AA has done a work that TWI was and is too lazy to ever do anything close to. They have taken a specific category of people with special needs and dedicated resources to helping them. T
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I had a pretty bad drinking problem when I was with TWI, I tried several things to get a handle on it but to no avail. I did have a Limb coordinator even suggest that I go to AA. After leaving TWI I s
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Bolshevik
Actually kind of humorous there, Mike, with the walking on a boat analogy.
This chaos vs renewed mind binary is a bit unsettling, though. Not much option in there. It you're completely out of control the alternative is being controlled?
Also, The Bible is not saying "there's a spirit called Leviathan that specifically works on alcoholics". Analogies can be made about the effects of alcohol on the mind and life, but there is no spirit of leviathan the alcohol guru in the Bible.
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waysider
Lambano, laballo, ballo, ball, throw , throw it out there... That's it! That's it! You're speaking the wonderful works of self delusion!
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Bolshevik
Translating the Bible into the common language of the people and the printing press were big deals at one time.
In The Way for some reason it was decided only the MOG could read. Or was the decoded behind the secret messages. Cause God forbid someone read for themselves without parroting the MOG.
Likely a case of learned helplessness.
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WordWolf
A) One can construct a connection between any 2 things, with a little creativity.
B) The verse you cited was Revelation 21:1. The word "sea" there, in the Greek, was "thalassa." Seems the New Testament usages of it are all literal of the type of body of water, a literal "sea." Strong's Concordance says nothing about it being metaphorical anywhere. Checking the usages of the word "sea" in the Old Testament reflect this also. Do you have a source for claiming that there's a "Hebrew idiom" that "sea" means "wavering of the mind" ?
If you don't, all of that is just exercise of the imagination.
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Mike
WWAY p. 91 footnote
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Bolshevik
Drunkenness results in collateral damage, wherein is excess. I was taking the first part of Mike's creativity as just having pun. Since only the Father can be creative, it's just a Dad joke.
Pareidolia
There is no serious reason to relate Leviathan to alcohol. I'm assuming VPW didn't come up with this on his own, either.
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Twinky
Do you have any source outside of Wierwille's claims, Mike?
There are plenty of Jewish Bible/Torah/practice sites where you could check information.
chabad.org is one such site. Google also Jewish theology, or Jewish practice and belief, or some other reasonable combination to take you to a wide choice of sites.
You said it - you support your assertion.
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Mike
I'm happy with my documentation and associations on this matter. The ball is in your (plural) court.
But it brings up a much more significant, and oft repeated point of mine. Look how no one here had any memory or consciousness of us being taught in that WWAY footnote that in the Book of Revelations the "no more sea" means no more wavering.
How many other footnotes or significant passages have you forgotten were in PFAL?
You people reject the spiritual good that was delivered to you, and want to focus on the messenger's flesh.
I find that grads everywhere forget what was taught them long ago, or were not spiritually mature to receive it all long ago.
There is a lot to be found by those meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL.
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T-Bone
The footnote on page 91 of The Word’s Way is an ancillary piece of information that wierwille put there to further explain the sea reference in Revelation 21:1
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
wierwille’s footnote on page 91 of The Word’s Way reads as follows:
“no more sea,” is a Hebraism referring to “no more wavering, confusion, trouble or unrighteousness.”
Granted, wierwille’s footnote does have the word “wavering” but I fail to see the connection to alcohol and drunks as you say nor do I see how it gives support to what you said about it being a ‘Hebrew idiom of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed’ :
Mike said:
“I see two connections between Leviathan and alcohol.
One is how a drunk looks as he tries to walk in a straight line. It looks like someone trying to walk in a boat that is rocking on the high seas, being rocked by a sea monster. It also feels like the high seas to a drunk who attempts to walk on dry land.
The other connection occurs in the Book of Revelation where it says that in the future there will be no more sea. That is a Hebrew idiom for no more WAVERING of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed. Add to this the passages about Peter looking at the waves as he walked on and becoming fearful.
Drunks are notorious for having a tempest tossed mind, full of wavering.”
I will say this about wierwille’s footnote – the ONLY word of his that MIGHT come close to what “no more sea” probably means is the word “confusion.”
On page 2265 of NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture
the following comment is offered by Revelation 21:1
…’there was no longer any sea.’ Some sources spoke of the purification of creation; others, of its transformation; still others, of its destruction and rebirth. Because the sea disappears, Revelation at least evokes transformation, though scholars debate how literally Revelation intends its different images. Some scholars associate the sea with evil (or chaos, as much earlier in ancient Near Eastern thought), with death (20:13) or with the beast (13:1), but it appears positively in some other passages in Revelation (5:13; 15:2). Perhaps the sea disappears here because Isaiah’s new heavens and earth do not specifically mention it. More likely it is replaced with the joyful river of life from God’s throne (for the righteous; 22:1) and possibly the lake of (for the wicked; 21:8).
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Early Christian commentaries have had similar ideas of chaos and death as those noted in the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible…to give you a taste here’s
Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament Volume XII: Revelation
The inside jacket talks about the postcritical revival of the early commentary tradition known as glossa ordinaria – a text artfully elaborated with ancient and authoritative reflections and insights to supplement modern commentaries by framing them with notable interpretive voices that have long since sustained the church…on pages 354 and 355 of this volume it provides the following comments by Augustine a theologians & philosopher and Andrew of Caesarea:
Revelation 21:1b no more sea
The restless and stormy and stormy life of people will pass away. Augustine. It is hard to know whether [the sea] will be dried up by the terrible heat of those flames or will itself be transformed into something better. For though we read that there will be a new heaven and earth, I cannot recall having ever seen mentioned a new sea, save perhaps in the verse of the Apocalypse, “sea of glass similar to crystal” . Yet in that passage John was not talking about the end of the world; moreover, he did not claim to have seen a sea proper, but something like a sea. Still, as prophecy is prone to intermingle the literal and metaphorical and so veil its meaning, it may be that in our present text, “and the sea is no more,” John was speaking of the identical sea he spoke of earlier: “and the sea gave up the dead that were in it.” For then, this world of ours, made restless and stormy by the lives of men (and hence, figuratively, called the sea), will have passed away. City of God 20.16.
There will be no more need of commerce. Andrew of Caesarea. Concerning the sea, it says that “the sea was no more.” For what use is there of a sea when people no longer need to sail it or to acquire by means of it the goods grown in regions lying far away? Moreover the “sea” is symbolic of the turbulence and unsettledness of life, and so there will be no need of it when there remains no trouble or fear among the saints. Commentary on the Apocalypse 21.1
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~
It is inconclusive if Mike actually thought he had a wierwille reference to support his ideas – or that he just imagined wierwille’s reference said more than it did – or that he was merely bluffing and hoped no one would look up the Word’s Way page 91 footnote.
I’ve become somewhat of a softie – and now like to give folks a chance to save face. Perhaps Mike would like to revise his comments intermingling Leviathan and alcohol, drunken pedestrians, tempest tossed drunken minds and the supposed Hebrew idiom for no more WAVERING of the mind in the future as all minds will be fully renewed.
For some reason the scene in Forrest Gump came to mind – where Lieutenant Dan shows up at the dock to say hi to Forrest coming in on his shrimp boat; Lt. Dan explains to Forrest “I’m here to try out my sea legs.” To which Forrest replies back “Well, you ain't got no legs, Lieutenant Dan.”…
Revelation 21:1b Revised Movie Dialog Translation “and there were no more sea legs”.
= = = = =
You needn’t remind me of remembering stuff that wierwille taught! I still have all my PFAL books and his other work, as well as Lifelines, and a 12 year accumulation of Way Mags, Sunday Night Teaching Tapes, my corps journals (plural!), corps night teachings, my own handwritten notes from corps tapes – since I had easy access while in residence, not to mention for 2 years in residence we had to live, breathe and sleep PFAL…so don’t try to bluff me – I was a supreme wierwille-worshipper! And don’t forget – I’m not letting those “precious memories” of toxic-nonsense-doctrine go to waste – one of the big reasons I post at Grease Spot – is to help others escape the nonsense
as I said on the thread
in that post I said:
The "Second Wave" of returning to PFAL has SUPPOSEDLY started
“here we are at the umpteenth session of the ALLEGED 2nd wave of returning to PFAL has started…in case anyone is wondering about these long and detailed critiques of mine and why I am going full steam ahead – it’s because my target audience are the PFAL-fans mentioned in the very first post on this thread – which includes more than the fans that the thread-starter knows personally – it also includes current followers of TWI and also the offshoots…and really ANY PFAL grad who has a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of PFAL to fulfill the goals/claims/promises/benefits that “The Teacher” (wierwille) stated AND the perception of inconsistencies between the actions of “The Teacher” (wierwille) and the ideals he supposedly represented…
I am trying to be more dispassionate as well as making more of an effort to suppress my weak attempts at comedy and sarcasm – which is a toughie for a class-clown wannabe. Considering my own experience of leaving TWI and what led me to reevaluate their dogma - it was usually persuasive discussions using calm words, logic, and evidence – whether it was from fellow way corps who had already left before me, old friends I knew before I got into TWI, or other EXTERNAL sources like books on systematic theology, psychology, philosophy, critical thinking and websites like Grease Spot Café.
This post was a long time coming – “inspired” by one of my favorite sessions of the PFAL class - battle of the senses (session 6, I think – funny how much I still remember). If I would give this post a parody title, I’d call it battle of the senseless…or maybe YOUR intuition and cognitive skills versus wierwille’s “revelations” …I also thought it could be called PFAL’s sedative to YOUR intuition and cognitive skills. “
end of my quote
~ ~ ~ ~
In case you haven’t figured out my strategy by now – here it is in a nutshell…I’m really not concerned with changing your mind or winning you over to my way of thinking. That’s not to say you’re hopeless – cuz I believe if someone is still alive there’s always hope…My intent is not even to win others over to my way of thinking…All I want is to inspire folks to do their best and clearest thinking…anyway - if we all thought alike then no one is really thinking.
and here’s one more piece of unsolicited advice: maybe you should refrain from that sloppy regurgitation, imaginative elaboration and deceitful misquoting of wierwille-theology when you try to bolster his memory or promote some whacky idea - you wind up actually making wierwille sound worse than he already is…you’re not being a good PR agent for the cause.
Edited by T-BoneThat’s all for now -
tales from the drunken editor lost at sea
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Bolshevik
This post sounds condescending and aggressive, Mike. Before I thought you were joking. This is the closest to LCM I've read in your posts.
Spirit of Leviathan pertaining to alcohol has no Biblical basis.
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Twinky
Your post is extremely rude, Mike.
Maybe if you were more coachable (if you know what that means) you might actually learn something.
Thanks, T-Bone, for your comprehensive response to Mike. Mike can learn much from your extensive reading and study "outside the box" of PFAL.
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waysider
Why look outside the box when we have this to guide us?
2 Petered out 1:3
Edited by waysiderHis divine powerVPW hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge ofHimPFAL that hath called us to glory and virtue.Link to comment
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Rocky
YIKES!
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T-Bone
Mike''s last line: “meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL”
Ah yes
They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.” from II Peter 2:22 NLT
…Peter devoted his words to false teachers who masqueraded in religious garb and leading new converts astray…to make this apropos to Mike’s coachable grads it’s saying fools are stubbornly inflexible and will eat regurgitated PFAL even if it’s disgusting and even though they may have left TWI and washed off wierwille’s muddied theology they come back for more sludge.
I’m not sure if this is an issue of folks talking past each other…I’m inclined to think it’s Mike’s AUTOMATIC defense strategy - no matter what someone has said about wierwille.
If someone points out wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist, Mike counters with they’re “focusing on the messenger's flesh.” If someone brings up wierwille was a drunkard, Mike counters with they’re “focusing on the messenger's flesh.” If someone brings up wierwille was a known sexual predator, Mike counters with they’re “focusing on the messenger's flesh.” ...and even if someone makes a theological argument that wierwille misinterpreted II Peter 1:20, 21 - Mike just might counter with they're "focusing on the messenger's flesh."
On another thread I happened to mention wierwille’s unabashed plagiarism and flagrant disregard for copyright laws and here was Mike’s response on Second Wave" of returning to PFAL has started :
Mike said: Such righteous anti-plagarism is really a joke to me. Has your mission in life really descended to fight for "Scholars' Rights" and Proper Crediting.
Are you able to think outside that box? It reveals to me a level of desperation in wanting to criticize VPW.
If I didn't think this was a terrible affliction that limits you in life, I'd consider it as hilarious as what happens to Flat Earthers.
I think you and others here have whipped yourself into a 25 year fit of righteous anti-plagarism, and lost track of real priorities in life and living.
But it's your life and you choose what is really important to you.
I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me.
Let's talk about more important issues, OK.
How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?
End of Mike quote
~ ~ ~
To which I replied on the same day a little later – here :
T-Bone said: Wow Mike I did a double take reading your post!
And here’s why: instead of your typical beating around the bush on the plagiarism issue – you talked about it directly, revealing your true feelings – and for that I thank you !!!!!
I sincerely mean that – I’m not being sarcastic.
Mike said, ‘I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me. Let's talk about more important issues, OK.’
Now it’s crystal clear to me what your opinion is of copyrights, plagiarism, proper citation, real scholars and what's due them – and I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of all that – but I will respect your opinion and hopefully you will understand I have a much higher opinion on them than you do.
As far as us talking about more important issues – we’ll have to come to some agreement on what is more important. As I’ve already indicated there will be some differences of opinion as to what matters have greater significance or value – hopefully we can amicably figure that out...
since your last words were “How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?” I figure we can start there...I’m not sure if you said that sarcastically or if you are indicating that is the first of the more important issues you want to talk about...if you intended to convey contempt...well, let’s just leave it at that. If you really do want to talk about speaking in tongues maybe that would warrant a new thread – I’ve already expressed my opinion on speaking in tongues on a few threads already but I always enjoy the opportunity to reiterate my views.
In closing, I wanted to clarify my intentions and the thought behind my posts. I was not making fun of you. My target is usually wierwille and all the deceitful tactics he utilized. That is an important issue to me because in my opinion lying and stealing on a grand scale is wrong. Obviously, you have a different opinion on that.
End of T-Bone quote
~ ~ ~ ~
On Sunday Feb 6th 2022 on that same thread I made two posts – in one I covered a bunch of stuff: how wierwille in plagiarizing Bullinger had actually screwed up what Bullinger got right on II Peter 1:20,21, AND how he also copied what Bullinger got wrong – the 4 crucified with Jesus theory, and I also got into when doing theology what are the degrees of authority in theological statements…
and in a quick follow-up post hot on the heels of analyzing PFAL’s problematic, misleading and shifty methods of Bible interpretation, I mentioned a few books that have an honest and simple approach to interpreting the Bible as well as getting a basic idea of what theology and doctrine are all about, as well as mentioning the four major theories that scholars have come up with to try and explain the limits or extent of HOW inspiration worked > see my reply here
Now mind you, on the 2nd wave thread - starting from my January 23, 2022 post where I decided to zero in on wierwille’s incompetence and theological-sounding-double-talk - or (to convert it into Mike’s currency i.e. something of supposed value that Mike uses in an exchange of ideas with other Grease Spotters)
I decided to devalue the "wierwille-dollar" by limiting myself to criticizing ONLY wierwille’s lack of competence as a researcher and teacher AND his “proficiency” in theological- sounding-language that appears to be earnest and meaningful but in fact is a mixture of sense and nonsense – and I kept my aim locked in on that for some 14 posts ! I didn’t get into any of his bad behavior – in other words I did NOT “ focus on the messenger's flesh.”
What I find utterly perplexing is that Mike did NOT respond to any of my 14 posts that analyzed PFAL nor did he try to defend wierwille or even address any of my detailed critiques on wierwille’s ideology – nothing except about my post on Sunday where I gave a brief description of the four major theories of inspiration on HOW the Bible got written… something in that got a response from Mike - that following Monday Mike asks me for a tiny summary of plenary verbal inspiration – here - where Mike quotes me saying
T-Bone said:
“I believe wierwille's theology would have been based on either # 2 Dictation theory or # 4 Plenary verbal inspiration theory”
end of T-Bone quote
...and then Mike says to me :
Mike said: “VPW definitely did NOT ascribe to the Divine Dictation model. He says so in the Corps Thessalonians tapes when he hits verse 1:1 in both of the Epistles. The reason for this, in those two opening verses, is due to those verses making it appear like Paul AND Timothy AND Silus were authors. In those Corps tapes VPW implies that Divine Dictation CAN happen, but GENERALLY the revelation is not given that way.”
End of Mike quote
~ ~ ~
What’s funny is I had JUST GIVEN a tiny summary of the plenary verbal inspiration theory in my post he had quoted!
You know, for a guy that gets on Grease Spotters for missing details or forgetting details of the great things in PFAL – Mike misses out on stuff right in front of him…I don’t know - - are PFAL-blinders that obscuring?
My point in reviewing some details of my 14 posts on the 2nd wave thread is that I’ve noticed Mike had nothing to say when I carefully, technically, and logically evaluated in a detailed and analytical way some of wierwille’s dubious teachings and speculations and his slipshod methods of interpreting Scripture.
My guess is that maybe he could not muster up any tenable counterarguments to my points. Now if you mention anything derogative about wierwille’s character - THAT appears to give him an excuse to avoid addressing wierwille’s ineptitude and deceitfulness and so he launches the countermeasure that the one who is criticizing wierwille’s behavior is “focusing on the messenger's flesh.”
It’s kind of amusing to watch him go on a pro-PFAL-rant like on this thread with:
Mike said:
“How many other footnotes or significant passages have you forgotten were in PFAL? You people reject the spiritual good that was delivered to you, and want to focus on the messenger's flesh. I find that grads everywhere forget what was taught them long ago, or were not spiritually mature to receive it all long ago. There is a lot to be found by those meek, coach-able grads who return to PFAL.”
End of Mike quote
~ ~ ~ ~
Seems like Mike makes a big effort to reinterpret, exaggerate, and misquote wierwille, and often alludes to something wierwille said in PFAL, corps tapes or whatever that supposedly supports Mike’s “thesis of PFAL being the greatest thing”– but he makes very little effort to have an actual normal conversation with someone.
As I mentioned in my previous post I WAS a supreme wierwille worshipper – NOT anymore though – BUT - I still have all my PFAL books and his other works, Lifelines – his quotes , a 12 year accumulation of Way Mags, Sunday Night Teaching Tapes, my corps journals (plural!), corps night teachings, my own handwritten notes from corps tapes, 2 years in-residence of living, breathing and sleeping PFAL…I honestly believe I have a more accurate knowledge and better understanding of wierwille's ideology and even PFAL than Mike does – and because I am free of the cultic-mindset driven into me by way corps indoctrination, my cognitive skills are no longer impaired …
…I’ll go even one better…unlike any diehard PFAL-fans, I believe any “newly-minted” PFAL grad will probably still have a healthy mind and will able to think normally since they haven’t yet succumbed to TWI’s long term process of inculcating a person with speculative and dubious ideas, debilitating and self-destructive attitudes, cognitive dissonance and mind-dulling methodologies…
...the road to indoctrination is not shock therapy but rather a gradual immersion… …
it’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink...
Looking back on my own experience - but now in a healthier frame of mind (intellect and emotions now free of the influence and coercion of a cult) I find it extremely sad and almost laughable (if it were not for the wake of destruction left by the lifestyle and ideology that cult leaders promote) that there’s still some diehard PFAL-fans out there…
what qualifies wierwille or any of these cult-leaders of TWI to teach about the Bible, train people to counsel others or to speak authoritatively about any of the important matters of life?
…so I say once again - don’t try to bluff me – I WAS a supreme wierwille-worshipper! And don’t forget – I’m not letting those “precious memories” of toxic-nonsense-doctrine go to waste – one of the big reasons I post at Grease Spot – is to help others escape the nonsense…so I gotta break it down on how harmful and controlling cults work…
In any of my posts it was never my intention to convert anyone to my way of thinking – I just want to challenge folks to do their best and clearest thinking…individuality is a good thing…
...if everyone thinks alike on everything from interpreting the Bible to living the Christian lifestyle, to politics, to priorities, to managing finances, to what one thinks of “natural man music”, to feeling obligated to highly esteem leadership and chose “the ministry” over family and friends, to feeling compelled to give of their finances to “God’s ministry”, to ignoring red flags, intuition, gut feelings, logic, and common sense - - - they just might be in a pseudo-Christian cult that’s also probably harmful and controlling…and it’s initials just might be The Way International.
…My posts are an honest narrative of my experiences, observations and analysis of things wierwille said, wrote and did – and it’s the truth! and if you were way corps YOU WERE THERE TOO and so you KNOW the things that I've said are true !
And I’m not talking about the persona of “Doctor Wierwille” and the pristine image of him packaged in PFAL-propaganda… diehard PFAL-fans still have the wool pulled over their eyes…unfortunately it usually takes being a devoted follower and joining the way corps to see the dark side of wierwille – the supreme hypocrite offstage and in all his glory …when wierwille was not doing his “man of god act” he was in his element – in the zone he was comfortable showing off the “freedom he had in Christ”, being an example of the ideal believer who so renewed his mind that whatever he did it was not sin to him – he excelled at that…because he was just being himself…whenever he sexually molested women he’d say stuff like “this is lockbox, honey…Most believers just wouldn’t understand what you and I did.” Boy, isn’t that the truth !!!!
Just to be clear my observations, comments, criticisms and arguments from Scripture and logic are debatable – and are open for debate. What is NOT debatable: anything wierwille wrote, said or did – because it’s documented in books, magazines, newsletters, recorded on tape in teachings or witnessed by those present.
What is up for argument is trying to guess at wierwille’s motivation or analyze his use of Scripture to justify an action or to surmise any unintended consequences from what he wrote, said or did.
On the 2nd wave thread, I was upfront and honest about who is my target audience being the PFAL-fans Mike mentioned in the very first post on the 2nd wave thread – which includes more than the alleged fans that he supposedly knows personally – it also includes current followers of TWI and also the offshoots…and really ANY PFAL grad who has a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of PFAL to fulfill the goals/claims/promises/benefits that “The Teacher” (wierwille) stated AND the perception of inconsistencies between the actions of “The Teacher” (wierwille) and the ideals he supposedly represented…
…I wish Mike was upfront and honest on threads…instead, it’s like playing a dodgeball game with him. When someone tries to hit Mike up for a reasonable explanation of some PFAL “truth” – Mike dodges by complaining about how all the arguments and documentation that he already did on the subject were lost in the archives of Grease Spot Café…this is part of my reasoning to keep referring to another thread (2nd Wave) on this thread – so Grease Spotters have some sense of continuity with Mike’s dodgeball antics…the topics may change – Mike may consider various threads forever “in play” as he dodges and weaves across threads in the cyberspace-time-continuum .
you know, I don’t mean to brag but if all the stuff I’ve written about criticizing wierwille, his ideology, analyzing PFAL, way corps program, TWI’s “theories and practice” were lost due to a major glitch in Grease Spot’s server – I could write it all up again in a heartbeat – because it’s a part of my life story…I didn’t make this $hit up. I did NOT plagiarize someone else’s whacky cult adventure…It’s all in my head and heart! I don’t even wish I could forget any of it – and why I haven’t thrown out all my Way books, tapes, notes, etc. – BECAUSE I’m still processing all of it and continue to glean life-lessons of what believing in nonsense will do to your life…there’s many more lessons to be learned…and some of which I want to pass on to other poor souls who guzzled down the Kool-Aid.
That’s all for now – the ball is in your court, Mike – maybe one of these days you’ll quit playing dodgeball and take appropriate action like a responsible player in a tennis game…you’ve been served.
here's that 2nd wave again
Edited by T-Bonea new wave of 2nd wave edits
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Rocky
It's likely both. Talking past each other is the opposite of active listening. People don't listen to what they don't want to hear.
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Bolshevik
If the language is cultspeak, does that mind have the option to even process, interpret, or express other modes of thought?
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T-Bone
Interesting question, Bolshevik !
Imagine if two people from two different cults strike up a conversation.
I’ve actually experienced that when I was a WOW in 1976 in D.C. …I was street witnessing (of course I was
He invites me to his home nearby (another good sign I’ve got a fish on the line). I go there – and there’s another guy living with him. My “new friend” explains to his housemate about me being a WOW ambassador on an outreach mission.
Then it all happened so fast – I’m not sure how his housemate segued – or should I say took over the conversation – I was no longer the fisherman – I was the fish being reeled in by a professional fisherman. I had only been in TWI a little over a year – and this guy was all over the place in the Bible. If I butted in to ask a question – he had an answer.
I was not familiar with any cults, nor did I realize I was actually in a cult myself
I kept thinking this is getting weird cuz he was now talking about America being in Bible prophecy. But when he gets to Colossians 1:27 “To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” I felt at ease cuz I’m familiar with that from PFAL.
And then he pulls a “pop quiz” on me – he asked me “and what do we call the American flag?” I froze – then answered “uhm – the American flag?” and he says, “Old Glory” – then the rest was a blur as he threw Bible verses and ideas at me to show me Rev. Sun Myung Moon was the Messiah. Yikes! Never heard of this stuff before. I don’t even remember how I quickly excused myself from their home.
After that I was trigger shy for a while – whenever I was witnessing, I would size up someone the best I could to see if they gave off a Moonie-vibe or just some know-more-Bible-than-me-vibe – I felt most comfortable if I knew I could control the conversation - if I sensed something I'd suggest to my witnessing partner that they handle this one.
I like to call my little story Clash of the Cultists.
Edited by T-BoneTo answer your question, Bolshevik – if both parties are trying to communicate in two different cult-speak, the options for either person to process, interpret, or express other modes of thought are probably severely limited.
clash of the editors
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Bolshevik
That was an interesting story. I was thinking cultie to non cultie. But cultie to cultie is funny!
Cults have a malignant narcissist at the core, so Mr. Sun-and-Moon and Dr. PeePee propably spoke a "common core" language.
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T-Bone
I bet Rev. Moon had his own leadership training program too – so yeah, Moon and wierwille probably did have a common corps language – what’s the Korean word for “indoctrination”?
And you got me thinking…wierwille said “The Word” takes the place of the absent Christ and Rev. Moon was the absent Christ - - seems like there was a missed opportunity for a partnership.
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waysider
주입 (jueeb)
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T-Bone
Wow pretty cool – thanks, Waysider!
Now, let’s put that through the PFAL-reverse-engineering-translator – first I say the magic words: lambano…laballo…ballo…throw it in low…lo and behold…then
Jueeb…sounds like dweeb…
dweeb…a boring, studious, or socially inept person…
yup – sounds like someone who has been indoctrinated.
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waysider
Dweeb (드위브) is a pet food/ pet supply company, located in Seoul. So, yeah, your point still stands. Associating with them will assure your life will "go to the dogs".
And that, my friends, is how a word study can lead you to somewhere you never expected.
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Bolshevik
yes yes both dog and dweeb are in Da Werd.
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Vomit of course being a result of alcohol . . .
Edited by Bolshevikputting post back on topic . . . ish
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T-Bone
Tying it all together now:
12 step program…the 12 sessions of PFAL…discerning of spirits…the ability to find Drambuie in the enormous selection offered at Dweeb & Leviathan’s Wine and Spirits where you’ll also find a wide variety of cocktail mixers. Cocktail mixers make it easy to create delicious and festive cocktails to guzzle down while on a 5-minute break from “the class”; try their Malignant Narcissist Mixer - a psychological elixir guaranteed to change, enhance, exaggerate, and interpolate wavelengths and languages so your mords get wixed up. This hybrid potion is an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the Malignant Narcissist! Or experiment with your own concoction - just add your favorite spirit and enjoy. If you don’t shop at Dweeb & Leviathan’s Wine and Spirits you’re barking up the wrong tree.
This ad paid for by The Critical Besmirch, Screeching and Felonious Misery of Doctor I-Know-You-Are-But-What-Am-Not.
Edited by T-BoneIgnoring the topic and continuing the loop de loop
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