Looking at the definitions as they appear in the Advanced Class syllabus, it becomes apparent they did not originate with VPW. They use phrasing and terminology that does not reflect Wierwille's *voice*.
I think he was like one of those guys who starts a small business in his garage , never dreaming it will grow into a large corporation but ready to roll with the punches as it does.
A man's ministry takes on the form of him and of those he attracts and form the ministry together. Maybe vp had a vision from the Holy Spirit of the Holy Spirit help he could bring into the world. I think he did, but I also think he was not willing to pay the price of holiness, which is required to retain the Holy Spirit in one's life.
An example is Billy Graham's ministry (Billy Graham Evanglistic Ministry), and millions of people have been blessed by this ministry. Samaritan's Purse, founded by Billy Graham's son Franklin, has collected and distributed shoebox Christmas presents for millions of children and many other worthy operations of bringing God's kindness to people. Not only Ruth and Billy's children and their families but also the families of the men and women who founded their ministries have helped the Lord bring not only the gospel, but also disaster relief and other physical aid to suffering people. Also Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Joyce Meyer, David Wilkerson (The Cross and the Switchblade) and some other ministries I know of with leaders who lived to serve the Lord. The Way International grew when Holy Spirit was there, but He was driven out by greed and lust and etc. etc. I am sure that twi wasn't the only ministry whose leaders bit the dust.
I think the key in "manifestation calculation" is being willing to keep one's promise to the Lord, to serve Him as He directs.
We will never be able to see where the Lord will take us, only that we need to obey the Lord if we want the blessing of His presence and protection. Moses, Abraham, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego -- none of these people knew where their "ministry" would take them, but their obedience and reverence allowed the Lord to do many mighty things by their hands, giving them the wisdom and strength needed as He did so.
Watchman Nee was imprisoned in China 1952-1972 when he died in prison. But he still has people who love to read what he wrote. I have been receiving for a few years a daily devotional of Watchman Nee's stuff from Christian Fellowship Publishers. And Watchman Nee's "ministry" is not noted by many, but I believe he helped the Lord keep His Word alive and that he has a most precious mansion in heaven.
The big question, in my opinion, is what is the legacy into the world I am leaving. I hope and pray I have helped strengthen the foundation and covering of prayer in the world, so people are more protected from the punches of the wicked one.
A man's ministry takes on the form of him and of those he attracts and form the ministry together. Maybe vp had a vision from the Holy Spirit of the Holy Spirit help he could bring into the world. I think he did, but I also think he was not willing to pay the price of holiness, which is required to retain the Holy Spirit in one's life.
Or......as discussed many times here at GSC, wierwille's ministry was the beneficiary of genuine ministries of other men that vpw plagiarized. The Word of God never returns void......and wherever it travels, it profits the doer regardless of its origin.
Having spent 24 years in twi at nearly every level, and been corps and staff and clergy......in all that I experienced and witnessed, I would testify that wierwille was NOT guided by the Holy Spirit. His decisions were based on self-indulgence and self-promotion, not moved by a godly compassion for others. He favored his enablers and criticized the meek of heart. He lauded the bullies in his presence and loathed the good-hearted.
Having read Mrs. W's book twice.....she documents the account where vic proclaims that HE DID NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE when Rosalind Rin_ker, a missionary, confronts him. And, wierwille was a church pastor during this time. Time and time again, its obvious that wierwille learns by fits-n-starts, by trial-n-error what works and what doesn't work. He attends seminars, listens to Robert Fuller's radio broadcast, and seeks guest speakers time and again. Does Mrs. W. ever highlight vpw's prayer life? Or, express how the Holy Spirit is guiding him? Nope.
I am firmly in the camp that believes wierwille was a "spiritual hitchhiker." Interesting, isn't it? He's the one who highlighted this terminology in pfal. Hmmmm. Perhaps, a brief acknowledgement of a confession?
And, with the passing years, its apparent that wierwille downplays and/or dismisses his plagiarist-past. The forward to his RHST book is altered in a newer edition. The "snowstorm and audible voice revelation" account is retold with different facts. No witnesses around for the black heart/white heart story. All of these past "documentaries" seem to embody the same thing.....take him at his word; no one else was around.
We heard these stories over and over in pfal, or books, or nightowls.......BUT WHAT DID I SEE? Just an older man who taught some scripture and gleaned this knowledge from lots of men before him. So? Plus, a chain-smoking, dramboie-coffee sipping authoritarian who had hundreds of corps sitting on the floor while he rambled on and on. Yeah, lots of us corps sat on the floor, cross-legged, like a bunch of third-graders. Sheeesh.
Excuse me for being so blunt......but, it was pathetic. I could have learned in THREE MONTHS what wierwille's corps program took three years, without the indoctrination slobber-fest. Why some people give wierwille a pass, or the benefit of a doubt on all this, I'll never know. My Bible states very plainly that we are to beware of seducers and wolves in sheep's clothing.
Having read Mrs. W's book twice.....she documents the account where vic proclaims that HE DID NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE when Rosalind Rin_ker, a missionary, confronts him. And, wierwille was a church pastor during this time.
(snip)
It was in "the Way:Living in Love" long before that.
page 177
"After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and
she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near
the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God.
She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible.
She was the one who had me make out lists of the good things I'd done, that was about
half a page, and all the bad things, that amounted to 10 or 12 pages. She was off on
that part, but the Bible as the Word of God, she really pushed that one. And I'd
never heard that in all my years of school-not believing it anyway."
vpw had been a pastor for over a year before this time.
He'd completed work for his masters and his doctorate,
and served for over a year as a pastor.
And, according to vpw, during all that, he never believed the Bible was the
Word of God. On what was he basing all his work- his papers, his sermons?
And the concept of spiritual hitchhiker also can be used to show that vp continued to be a spiritual hitchhiker on the backs of the folks who walked with the Holy Spirit and in His loving kindness.
I had one person tell me (spiritually confessed) that he had a leech spirit. (It was very subtle but very creepy, but eventually he got delivered of that after he got out of twi.)
I think the "spiritual hitchhiker" conveys the free will decisions to ride on the back of others' faith, and that the "leech" is the spirit which thrives on such decisions.
Further, the cult mentality of blind obedience to one person or thought further hinders developing one's own relationship with the Holy Spirit.
Thanks, again, Skyrider, for helping me put "leech" and vp together. And this also helps me see the difference between "leech" and "spiritual hitchhiker" and the circulation of the life-blood of the Body of Christ, the giving and receiving flow of the spirit, of ideas and understanding and "stuff," all of which is so vital to the health of the "one new man" of which we are part.
It was in "the Way: Living in Love" long before that.
page 177
". . .She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible.
Too bad he ignored her advice about getting his own life in alignment and harmony with the BIbie. How precious that is. Thanks, WordWolf. (I don't have these books any more.)
quote: Watchman Nee was imprisoned in China 1952-1972 when he died in prison. But he still has people who love to read what he wrote. I have been receiving for a few years a daily devotional of Watchman Nee's stuff from Christian Fellowship Publishers. And Watchman Nee's "ministry" is not noted by many, but I believe he helped the Lord keep His Word alive and that he has a most precious mansion in heaven.
The big question, in my opinion, is what is the legacy into the world I am leaving. I hope and pray I have helped strengthen the foundation and covering of prayer in the world, so people are more protected from the punches of the wicked one.
We live in a large, global, media infested world. Sometimes, you get the idea that if someone's ministry doesn't have numbers, then it doesn't have impact. Naw! We are the lights of the world. The natural man doesn't see that light, but God does. God sees every time we bless someone. Worldly, ungodly people get much of the limelight today, but part of our hope is when WE get it. In front of the angels and all of God's people. Blessing one person with the love of God punches the wicked one.
quote: Watchman Nee was imprisoned in China 1952-1972 when he died in prison. But he still has people who love to read what he wrote. I have been receiving for a few years a daily devotional of Watchman Nee's stuff from Christian Fellowship Publishers. And Watchman Nee's "ministry" is not noted by many, but I believe he helped the Lord keep His Word alive and that he has a most precious mansion in heaven.
The big question, in my opinion, is what is the legacy into the world I am leaving. I hope and pray I have helped strengthen the foundation and covering of prayer in the world, so people are more protected from the punches of the wicked one.
We live in a large, global, media infested world. Sometimes, you get the idea that if someone's ministry doesn't have numbers, then it doesn't have impact. Naw! We are the lights of the world. The natural man doesn't see that light, but God does. God sees every time we bless someone. Worldly, ungodly people get much of the limelight today, but part of our hope is when WE get it. In front of the angels and all of God's people. Blessing one person with the love of God punches the wicked one.
Many, many times, Christians don't see the results of our prayers.
I realized that back in college. Sometimes you pray for someone and never see
them again. I had that happen in college with a non-Christian. I ran into them
over a year later, at a distance. I waved. They waved back, and called out a
Christian greeting. Another Christian picked up where I left off. But what I
did, small though it may seem, was to set up things so they could hear when the
next Christian came through, and think things through.
I liken these things to when police "share a collar." Bringing in a criminal is
sometimes the work of several police doing different things- but what is
important is that the criminal is brought in. To Christians, the salvation of
others is-or at least should be- far more important than whose congregation
they attend (so long as they don't join an abusive or toxic group,
And the concept of spiritual hitchhiker also can be used to show that vp continued to be a spiritual hitchhiker on the backs of the folks who walked with the Holy Spirit and in His loving kindness.
Yes, absolutely......the likes of Steve Hef_ner, Jim Do_op, Del & Nancy, Donnie F., Lonnell & Brenda J., Ross Tr@cy, etc. etc. passed in and out of twi's doors and twi was the beneficiary of their ministries and good works.
But sadly, the incremental indoctrination of the "absent Christ" permeated the twi ranks and chain-of-command obedience ruled. Wierwille plagiarized from ministers, scholars and mentors and still failed to recognize or appreciate the converging dynamics of the Jesus Movement and this gap in time. The railroading sociopath was incapable of registering compassion, or empathy, or longsuffering, or patience, etc in the very real sense that scripture embodies "fruits of the spirit."
Thus, good men and women have entered and exited twi since its inception....and will continue to do so.
Yet, some become ensnared by vanity, perks, relationships, arrogance, etc...and see no reason to leave.
No surprise, though......the wheat and tares [weeds] will grow together until harvest.
The Lord of the Harvest will then separate the wheat from its chaff and tares.
Having been raised on a wheat farm, I have the most vivid imagery of this!
". The railroading sociopath was incapable of registering compassion, or empathy, or longsuffering, or patience, etc in the very real sense that scripture embodies 'fruits of the spirit'."
He claimed that he spoke in tongues so much he could go for days on end without sleep because SIT was supposed to be a sort of perfect rest/substitute for sleep.
He also claimed that speaking in tongues, and the manifestations in general, produced the fruit of the spirit described in Galatians, yet, he failed to display those qualities in his own life..
For a guy who was supposedly so concerned with mathematical accuracy, I think he failed (or ignored) to notice that something just wasn't "adding up".
". The railroading sociopath was incapable of registering compassion, or empathy, or longsuffering, or patience, etc in the very real sense that scripture embodies 'fruits of the spirit'."
He claimed that he spoke in tongues so much he could go for days on end without sleep because SIT was supposed to be a sort of perfect rest/substitute for sleep.
He also claimed that speaking in tongues, and the manifestations in general, produced the fruit of the spirit described in Galatians, yet, he failed to display those qualities in his own life..
For a guy who was supposedly so concerned with mathematical accuracy, I think he failed (or ignored) to notice that something just wasn't "adding up".
The man was fond of making all sorts of CLAIMS.
The man was not fond of actually doing work.
So, he was all talk when it came to doing good.
If helping you would inconvenience him, he wouldn't do it
and he'd berate you for being selfish.
vpw was oblivious to the hypocrisy that defined much of his life.
He passed along style and substance of others, and never thought
there was anything wrong with being a hearer or teacher of The Word
who was NOT a DOER of The Word. He taught others how to behave
rightly, sometimes, but never taught it BY EXAMPLE.
As a sociopath, there's an abrupt disconnect in his life which is
explained by him having no conscience. So, inconsistencies never
bothered him if they weren't a direct inconvenience to him.
VP stole a class from BG Leonard, then ran it verbatim at the beginning. Later he split one class into three classes, all with dependencies, all with the goal of being "fully instructed" as part of the buzz and culture of his group. The "manifestations", being a tangible element of the classes, became a way to divide up the instruction. With one class only, there was not enough indoctrination time for people really get settled in to the culture which holds such ultimate importance on the day of the week Jesus died, and how many criminals he was executed with, because of "the integrity of the Word". VP himself details his history of faking the SIT stuff, including going to Oral Roberts event, being up on stage, etc. (all in the Way Living in Love, quoted here in the thread). So I don't think initially VP considered all the practice sessions, etc. Actually, the first Intermediate class was less developed, without all the practice session stuff.
I think in the early years of the class (1965 - 72) they ran classes for a lot of people who were members of local Midwest churches. So they would sit thru the class and go back to their church. From a Christianity perspective, awesome. From an empire building perspective, horrible. So VP enacted strategies to extend out the contact, target youth, promote intangibles as benefits and went after membership, not the message. Absolutely the strategy evolved to build more and more dependency on VP's group. The hippies or "groovy Christians" provided the first group that had enough of its own autonomy and enough disconnection with their parents to be able to sway them to that extent. So those elements came together and a generation was exposed to VP's brainwashing tactics.
There are some wonderful folks who are holding forth the life of the Lord Jesus. There are wonderful folks with the integrity of holiness which is vital to a true ministry with the Holy Spirit. The Azusa Street Revival (1906-1910) included a prophecy that there would be a revival in 100 years (2010 and following) that would be greater than the Azusa Street Revival and would not be limited to any one place (such as Brownsville, Wales, and Azusa Street) and would continue until the Lord returns. I think we will be part of that.
I don't know why, but this video starts in the middle for me. The whole thing is nice (in my opinion) If this link doesn't come/connect, you can also find this interview with Tommy Welchel, who interviewed and tells the stories of many of the participants of the Azusa Street Revival on Sid Roth (www.sidroth.org) in one of his "It's Supernatural" archives.
In my opinion, the way those kids talked about their experiences at Azusa Street, it sure sounded like us in the late when we were "hot stuff," when we were looking to see God come into the earth for us at every hand. My favorite was watching $el $uncan contort his face like a demon possessed person so we could see what it looked like. After that I was never afraid of a demon again. I knew by experience that Christ in you in $el was bigger, and therefore I was stronger, too.
Sid Roth's stuff is found on Lightsource, utube, and his own www.sidroth.org website.
I guess all in all, I don't think God is through with us yet. Many people (and their families) were waylaid by the nefarious vp and his twi cult, but God still wills all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (I Timothy 2:4), and He still works all things to His purpose for His people (Romans 8:28). I think the best is yet to come, for those who continue to cast off the filthy rags of the old man and press forward towards our high calling (Ephesians is written to us, the faithful in Christ Jesus).
In my opinion, vp really was worse than that, much worse. A cloud without rain doesn't hurt anyone and in fact provides some shade on a hot day; however, the hurt to God's precious little ones that vp initiated, not only personally but also from the doctrine of deadly hypocricy that he bred into the children who had no other view of Jesus Christ than the one he presented. I for one am happy to know vp receives his just reward.
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waysider
"Is there a third option?"
Yes.... He was flying by the seat of his pants.
Looking at the definitions as they appear in the Advanced Class syllabus, it becomes apparent they did not originate with VPW. They use phrasing and terminology that does not reflect Wierwille's *voice*.
I think he was like one of those guys who starts a small business in his garage , never dreaming it will grow into a large corporation but ready to roll with the punches as it does.
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skyrider
Hmmm....I think I said something like that recently, too. :)
But really.....he may have been incompetent, but vpw was not stupid.
He calculated his marketing strategies; the meticulous details, the
bravado presentation, the empty vessel vs full vessel, etc.
AND....when pfal was packaged as one class (foundational, int, adv) it went nowhere.
He then, broke it down into three classes and undershepherding/follow-up.
See. If you entice them with carrots, and a stick, then there's movement.
How many came out of the advanced class ministering healing like Leonard did?
Or, was it just more knowledge and buzzspeak to ensnare the student?
Besides, the caste system and green nametag was a prerequisite to other stuff. Right?
By looking in the mirror, wierwille knew that others, too, might just up and split.
Therefore.....imo, he calculated a way that would seduce the unsuspecting.
When and where did wierwille EVER operate word of knowledge, word of wisdom and/or
discerning of spirits......let alone faith, miracles or healing? Yeah, he claimed
some corps were possessed, but did he EVER cast out any devil spirits?
NO.
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Steve Lortz
Wierwille was, pretty much, a cloud without rain.
Love,
Steve
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waysider
Like clouds and wind without rain is one who boasts of gifts never given
Proverbs 25:14
New International Version (NIV)
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Kit Sober
"A man's gift makes room for him."
A man's ministry takes on the form of him and of those he attracts and form the ministry together. Maybe vp had a vision from the Holy Spirit of the Holy Spirit help he could bring into the world. I think he did, but I also think he was not willing to pay the price of holiness, which is required to retain the Holy Spirit in one's life.
An example is Billy Graham's ministry (Billy Graham Evanglistic Ministry), and millions of people have been blessed by this ministry. Samaritan's Purse, founded by Billy Graham's son Franklin, has collected and distributed shoebox Christmas presents for millions of children and many other worthy operations of bringing God's kindness to people. Not only Ruth and Billy's children and their families but also the families of the men and women who founded their ministries have helped the Lord bring not only the gospel, but also disaster relief and other physical aid to suffering people. Also Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Joyce Meyer, David Wilkerson (The Cross and the Switchblade) and some other ministries I know of with leaders who lived to serve the Lord. The Way International grew when Holy Spirit was there, but He was driven out by greed and lust and etc. etc. I am sure that twi wasn't the only ministry whose leaders bit the dust.
I think the key in "manifestation calculation" is being willing to keep one's promise to the Lord, to serve Him as He directs.
We will never be able to see where the Lord will take us, only that we need to obey the Lord if we want the blessing of His presence and protection. Moses, Abraham, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego -- none of these people knew where their "ministry" would take them, but their obedience and reverence allowed the Lord to do many mighty things by their hands, giving them the wisdom and strength needed as He did so.
Watchman Nee was imprisoned in China 1952-1972 when he died in prison. But he still has people who love to read what he wrote. I have been receiving for a few years a daily devotional of Watchman Nee's stuff from Christian Fellowship Publishers. And Watchman Nee's "ministry" is not noted by many, but I believe he helped the Lord keep His Word alive and that he has a most precious mansion in heaven.
The big question, in my opinion, is what is the legacy into the world I am leaving. I hope and pray I have helped strengthen the foundation and covering of prayer in the world, so people are more protected from the punches of the wicked one.
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DogLover
Very well put, Kit.
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skyrider
Or......as discussed many times here at GSC, wierwille's ministry was the beneficiary of genuine ministries of other men that vpw plagiarized. The Word of God never returns void......and wherever it travels, it profits the doer regardless of its origin.
Having spent 24 years in twi at nearly every level, and been corps and staff and clergy......in all that I experienced and witnessed, I would testify that wierwille was NOT guided by the Holy Spirit. His decisions were based on self-indulgence and self-promotion, not moved by a godly compassion for others. He favored his enablers and criticized the meek of heart. He lauded the bullies in his presence and loathed the good-hearted.
Having read Mrs. W's book twice.....she documents the account where vic proclaims that HE DID NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE when Rosalind Rin_ker, a missionary, confronts him. And, wierwille was a church pastor during this time. Time and time again, its obvious that wierwille learns by fits-n-starts, by trial-n-error what works and what doesn't work. He attends seminars, listens to Robert Fuller's radio broadcast, and seeks guest speakers time and again. Does Mrs. W. ever highlight vpw's prayer life? Or, express how the Holy Spirit is guiding him? Nope.
I am firmly in the camp that believes wierwille was a "spiritual hitchhiker." Interesting, isn't it? He's the one who highlighted this terminology in pfal. Hmmmm. Perhaps, a brief acknowledgement of a confession?
And, with the passing years, its apparent that wierwille downplays and/or dismisses his plagiarist-past. The forward to his RHST book is altered in a newer edition. The "snowstorm and audible voice revelation" account is retold with different facts. No witnesses around for the black heart/white heart story. All of these past "documentaries" seem to embody the same thing.....take him at his word; no one else was around.
We heard these stories over and over in pfal, or books, or nightowls.......BUT WHAT DID I SEE? Just an older man who taught some scripture and gleaned this knowledge from lots of men before him. So? Plus, a chain-smoking, dramboie-coffee sipping authoritarian who had hundreds of corps sitting on the floor while he rambled on and on. Yeah, lots of us corps sat on the floor, cross-legged, like a bunch of third-graders. Sheeesh.
Excuse me for being so blunt......but, it was pathetic. I could have learned in THREE MONTHS what wierwille's corps program took three years, without the indoctrination slobber-fest. Why some people give wierwille a pass, or the benefit of a doubt on all this, I'll never know. My Bible states very plainly that we are to beware of seducers and wolves in sheep's clothing.
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WordWolf
It was in "the Way:Living in Love" long before that.
page 177
"After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and
she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near
the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God.
She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible.
She was the one who had me make out lists of the good things I'd done, that was about
half a page, and all the bad things, that amounted to 10 or 12 pages. She was off on
that part, but the Bible as the Word of God, she really pushed that one. And I'd
never heard that in all my years of school-not believing it anyway."
vpw had been a pastor for over a year before this time.
He'd completed work for his masters and his doctorate,
and served for over a year as a pastor.
And, according to vpw, during all that, he never believed the Bible was the
Word of God. On what was he basing all his work- his papers, his sermons?
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Kit Sober
SPIRITUAL HITCHHIKER
Thanks, Skyrider, for highlighting "spiritual hitchhiker." That helps me put into perspective how the twi place grew and flourished -- I know I came to events and took classes to hear and see family, friends, and other loved ones. Some famous ones and other not so famous, but all so very precious: D0nnie Fug!t, %el and Nanc! Dun*an, #arl Burt0n, B!ian Bli$$, B0 and $xanley Rea!ard, the Ne$$le's, etc. etc. etc. etc. Oh so many wonderful people who made "hearts knit together" and the other plagiarized catch phrases real to me and to others. Some of these folks I can find here at Greasespot Café, on Facebook, and email communications. (So very thankful for this internet business.)
And the concept of spiritual hitchhiker also can be used to show that vp continued to be a spiritual hitchhiker on the backs of the folks who walked with the Holy Spirit and in His loving kindness.
I had one person tell me (spiritually confessed) that he had a leech spirit. (It was very subtle but very creepy, but eventually he got delivered of that after he got out of twi.)
I think the "spiritual hitchhiker" conveys the free will decisions to ride on the back of others' faith, and that the "leech" is the spirit which thrives on such decisions.
Further, the cult mentality of blind obedience to one person or thought further hinders developing one's own relationship with the Holy Spirit.
Thanks, again, Skyrider, for helping me put "leech" and vp together. And this also helps me see the difference between "leech" and "spiritual hitchhiker" and the circulation of the life-blood of the Body of Christ, the giving and receiving flow of the spirit, of ideas and understanding and "stuff," all of which is so vital to the health of the "one new man" of which we are part.
Many thanks.
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Kit Sober
Too bad he ignored her advice about getting his own life in alignment and harmony with the BIbie. How precious that is. Thanks, WordWolf. (I don't have these books any more.)
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johniam
quote: Watchman Nee was imprisoned in China 1952-1972 when he died in prison. But he still has people who love to read what he wrote. I have been receiving for a few years a daily devotional of Watchman Nee's stuff from Christian Fellowship Publishers. And Watchman Nee's "ministry" is not noted by many, but I believe he helped the Lord keep His Word alive and that he has a most precious mansion in heaven.
The big question, in my opinion, is what is the legacy into the world I am leaving. I hope and pray I have helped strengthen the foundation and covering of prayer in the world, so people are more protected from the punches of the wicked one.
We live in a large, global, media infested world. Sometimes, you get the idea that if someone's ministry doesn't have numbers, then it doesn't have impact. Naw! We are the lights of the world. The natural man doesn't see that light, but God does. God sees every time we bless someone. Worldly, ungodly people get much of the limelight today, but part of our hope is when WE get it. In front of the angels and all of God's people. Blessing one person with the love of God punches the wicked one.
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WordWolf
The discussion about Wh1tes1de's book was in "the way:living in wonderland."
The discussion about lcm's book was in "vp and me in wonderland."
There was a discussion about the supposed history book but I have to find it.
There was also a discussion about "spiritual carjacking" but I'll have to find that
as well, but it sounded relevant to your thinking right now.
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WordWolf
Many, many times, Christians don't see the results of our prayers.
I realized that back in college. Sometimes you pray for someone and never see
them again. I had that happen in college with a non-Christian. I ran into them
over a year later, at a distance. I waved. They waved back, and called out a
Christian greeting. Another Christian picked up where I left off. But what I
did, small though it may seem, was to set up things so they could hear when the
next Christian came through, and think things through.
I liken these things to when police "share a collar." Bringing in a criminal is
sometimes the work of several police doing different things- but what is
important is that the criminal is brought in. To Christians, the salvation of
others is-or at least should be- far more important than whose congregation
they attend (so long as they don't join an abusive or toxic group,
at least.)
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skyrider
Yes, absolutely......the likes of Steve Hef_ner, Jim Do_op, Del & Nancy, Donnie F., Lonnell & Brenda J., Ross Tr@cy, etc. etc. passed in and out of twi's doors and twi was the beneficiary of their ministries and good works.
But sadly, the incremental indoctrination of the "absent Christ" permeated the twi ranks and chain-of-command obedience ruled. Wierwille plagiarized from ministers, scholars and mentors and still failed to recognize or appreciate the converging dynamics of the Jesus Movement and this gap in time. The railroading sociopath was incapable of registering compassion, or empathy, or longsuffering, or patience, etc in the very real sense that scripture embodies "fruits of the spirit."
Thus, good men and women have entered and exited twi since its inception....and will continue to do so.
Yet, some become ensnared by vanity, perks, relationships, arrogance, etc...and see no reason to leave.
No surprise, though......the wheat and tares [weeds] will grow together until harvest.
The Lord of the Harvest will then separate the wheat from its chaff and tares.
Having been raised on a wheat farm, I have the most vivid imagery of this!
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waysider
". The railroading sociopath was incapable of registering compassion, or empathy, or longsuffering, or patience, etc in the very real sense that scripture embodies 'fruits of the spirit'."
He claimed that he spoke in tongues so much he could go for days on end without sleep because SIT was supposed to be a sort of perfect rest/substitute for sleep.
He also claimed that speaking in tongues, and the manifestations in general, produced the fruit of the spirit described in Galatians, yet, he failed to display those qualities in his own life..
For a guy who was supposedly so concerned with mathematical accuracy, I think he failed (or ignored) to notice that something just wasn't "adding up".
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WordWolf
The man was fond of making all sorts of CLAIMS.
The man was not fond of actually doing work.
So, he was all talk when it came to doing good.
If helping you would inconvenience him, he wouldn't do it
and he'd berate you for being selfish.
vpw was oblivious to the hypocrisy that defined much of his life.
He passed along style and substance of others, and never thought
there was anything wrong with being a hearer or teacher of The Word
who was NOT a DOER of The Word. He taught others how to behave
rightly, sometimes, but never taught it BY EXAMPLE.
As a sociopath, there's an abrupt disconnect in his life which is
explained by him having no conscience. So, inconsistencies never
bothered him if they weren't a direct inconvenience to him.
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excathedra
that's so sad. i wish it had been different
also sad about people who really wanted to help people and got slandered, kicked out, etc.
but god / jesus christ is our hope and i'm not sad about that
love,e
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chockfull
VP stole a class from BG Leonard, then ran it verbatim at the beginning. Later he split one class into three classes, all with dependencies, all with the goal of being "fully instructed" as part of the buzz and culture of his group. The "manifestations", being a tangible element of the classes, became a way to divide up the instruction. With one class only, there was not enough indoctrination time for people really get settled in to the culture which holds such ultimate importance on the day of the week Jesus died, and how many criminals he was executed with, because of "the integrity of the Word". VP himself details his history of faking the SIT stuff, including going to Oral Roberts event, being up on stage, etc. (all in the Way Living in Love, quoted here in the thread). So I don't think initially VP considered all the practice sessions, etc. Actually, the first Intermediate class was less developed, without all the practice session stuff.
I think in the early years of the class (1965 - 72) they ran classes for a lot of people who were members of local Midwest churches. So they would sit thru the class and go back to their church. From a Christianity perspective, awesome. From an empire building perspective, horrible. So VP enacted strategies to extend out the contact, target youth, promote intangibles as benefits and went after membership, not the message. Absolutely the strategy evolved to build more and more dependency on VP's group. The hippies or "groovy Christians" provided the first group that had enough of its own autonomy and enough disconnection with their parents to be able to sway them to that extent. So those elements came together and a generation was exposed to VP's brainwashing tactics.
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Kit Sober
There are some wonderful folks who are holding forth the life of the Lord Jesus. There are wonderful folks with the integrity of holiness which is vital to a true ministry with the Holy Spirit. The Azusa Street Revival (1906-1910) included a prophecy that there would be a revival in 100 years (2010 and following) that would be greater than the Azusa Street Revival and would not be limited to any one place (such as Brownsville, Wales, and Azusa Street) and would continue until the Lord returns. I think we will be part of that.
I don't know why, but this video starts in the middle for me. The whole thing is nice (in my opinion) If this link doesn't come/connect, you can also find this interview with Tommy Welchel, who interviewed and tells the stories of many of the participants of the Azusa Street Revival on Sid Roth (www.sidroth.org) in one of his "It's Supernatural" archives.
In my opinion, the way those kids talked about their experiences at Azusa Street, it sure sounded like us in the late when we were "hot stuff," when we were looking to see God come into the earth for us at every hand. My favorite was watching $el $uncan contort his face like a demon possessed person so we could see what it looked like. After that I was never afraid of a demon again. I knew by experience that Christ in you in $el was bigger, and therefore I was stronger, too.
<IFRAME height=315 src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VRcxcv7TWBc" frameBorder=0 width=420 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>
Sid Roth's stuff is found on Lightsource, utube, and his own www.sidroth.org website.
I guess all in all, I don't think God is through with us yet. Many people (and their families) were waylaid by the nefarious vp and his twi cult, but God still wills all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (I Timothy 2:4), and He still works all things to His purpose for His people (Romans 8:28). I think the best is yet to come, for those who continue to cast off the filthy rags of the old man and press forward towards our high calling (Ephesians is written to us, the faithful in Christ Jesus).
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Kit Sober
In my opinion, vp really was worse than that, much worse. A cloud without rain doesn't hurt anyone and in fact provides some shade on a hot day; however, the hurt to God's precious little ones that vp initiated, not only personally but also from the doctrine of deadly hypocricy that he bred into the children who had no other view of Jesus Christ than the one he presented. I for one am happy to know vp receives his just reward.
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