They appeal to noble motives, (See Dale Carnegie, How to win friends and influence people, Item 10 in the list of 12 ways to win people to your way of thinking) even if they have no freakin' idea how to actually make those motives produce results (fruit).
maybe so...but i'm not letting them or me off the hook so easily.... i tend to view their "appeal to nobler motives" as a manipulative form of flattery - like "in this leadership role think of how many more people you'll get to bless / serve" - which sounds good and unselfish - and i fell for it thinking i must have a lot to give - - i'm just not aware of it yet....yeah it's all for the good of grooming another first class flunky for TWI.
my criticism addresses leadership / serving / responsibility in TWI
-TWI is parasitic and exploits its members - as an organization their modus operandi does not serve the devout followers of TWI nor "blesses" them in any way, shape or form....
- how TWI "manages" people - leads people - is more along the lines of manipulation and is always self-serving to the organization - that is the "greater good"
there's nothing noble about TWI's agenda or means...or the way i gobbled up their flattery
Edited by T-Bone to add an afterthought and for clarity
maybe so...but i'm not letting them or me off the hook so easily.... i tend to view their "appeal to nobler motives" as a manipulative form of flattery - like "in this leadership role think of how many more people you'll get to bless / serve" - which sounds good and unselfish - and i fell for it thinking i must have a lot to give - - i'm just not aware of it yet....yeah it's all for the good of grooming another first class flunky for TWI.
my criticism addresses leadership / serving / responsibility in TWI
-TWI is parasitic and exploits its members - as an organization their modus operandi does not serve the devout followers of TWI nor "blesses" them in any way, shape or form....
- how TWI "manages" people - leads people - is more along the lines of manipulation and is always self-serving to the organization - that is the "greater good"
there's nothing noble about TWI's agenda or means...or the way i gobbled up their flattery
My comment was most definitely not intended to let them off the hook for anything. Their appeal to nobler motives is most assuredly manipulative rather than authentic.
Two, three, even four decades after the fact, people still have trouble letting go of the (false) idea they were part of some sort of noble cause. You can see it time and again on a certain social media site, where people list their Way involvement as the highlight of their personal history.
[snip] -- my criticism addresses leadership / serving / responsibility in TWI
-TWI is parasitic and exploits its members - as an organization their modus operandi does not serve the devout followers of TWI nor "blesses" them in any way, shape or form....
- how TWI "manages" people - leads people - is more along the lines of manipulation and is always self-serving to the organization - that is the "greater good" [snip]
Yep......parasitic and exploits its followers. Lying in wait to deceive others.
The upper-tier and long-time staffers live off the "blood, sweat and tears" of those on the field......those who got out witnessing, follow-up, knock on doors, run classes, encourage their family or co-workers to get involved and then, faithfully tithe or abs. Those who sit in the "upper seats" have their [temporary] reward of a life of ease and lording over others.
Sure, there is some scripture that has merit.......BUT one has to weed thru all the tweaking, and cherry-picking, and error-ridden dispensationalism and idolatrous mog-doctrine to substantiate any worth in that outfit. The place is a mine field.
And, where is the "charitable giving" of this NON-PROFIT (cough, cough) organization? What percentage goes out the door to help others? How much goes to the administrative/organizational/pleasure of the elites who sit and pontificate and lord over the unsuspecting? 40%? 50%? 60%? And, how much goes into twi's investments and savings accounts SO THAT THEY WILL ALWAYS SUSTAIN THEIR MANIPULATIVE WAYS?
And, Camp Gunnison.......now, just an exclusive pleasure resort for the upper elite in twi to go and be waited on hand-n-foot. Probably Howard is way-too-old to try and go elk hunting anymore. The place should be sold........and the proceeds should be distributed to thousands that twi savaged in their quest for self-gain.
My comment was most definitely not intended to let them off the hook for anything. Their appeal to nobler motives is most assuredly manipulative rather than authentic.
Rocky, I do apologize for the fuzziness of my post – i always appreciate your posts/input – I think sometimes I go for brevity and wind up painting in broad strokes; I do believe there is something to Carnegie’s principles – and I agree with you – like everything else that VPW got his exploitative paws on – it became a twisted and misused means to his egocentric agenda.
I think a lot of folks were captivated by VPW’s charisma and then that morphed into believing they were serving God and truly helping others. At least that’s what VPW told them.
Good folks – clergy, staff, devoted followers in programs, fellowships – whatever the level of involvement - doing their best for “the cause”; but they ALSO were exploited – their resources, time, efforts, money – even just their benevolent nature helped sustain TWI’s life-dominating system…
I believe good-natured folks who managed others in some capacity - tended to act like a buffer between those they serve and Pharisee Central (TWI Headquarters) - insulating folks from TWI’s legalism – the fanatical observance of VPW’s doctrines and practices.
In my humble opinion, true Christianity is centered on Christ.
Cults are centered on some other person.
When I first got involved with TWI in ’74 by taking their foundational class Power for Abundant Living – I thought it was all about Christ. His name is mentioned a lot at first. But as the class progressed – I came to find out “the Word” takes the place of the absent Christ – or so said the teacher VPW.
And if you stick around long enough you’ll come to understand “the Word” does not refer to the Bible or the Holy Bible or any particular translation or version. It’s VPW’s skewed interpretation of the Bible..... It’s really VPW’s Word.
And, where is the "charitable giving" of this NON-PROFIT (cough, cough) organization? What percentage goes out the door to help others? How much goes to the administrative/organizational/pleasure of the elites who sit and pontificate and lord over the unsuspecting? 40%? 50%? 60%? And, how much goes into twi's investments and savings accounts SO THAT THEY WILL ALWAYS SUSTAIN THEIR MANIPULATIVE WAYS?
And, where is the "charitable giving" of this NON-PROFIT (cough, cough) organization? What percentage goes out the door to help others? How much goes to the administrative/organizational/pleasure of the elites who sit and pontificate and lord over the unsuspecting? 40%? 50%? 60%? And, how much goes into twi's investments and savings accounts SO THAT THEY WILL ALWAYS SUSTAIN THEIR MANIPULATIVE WAYS?
This reminded me of a conversation that we had with Jessie recently. We were asking about missions that TWI supports (knowing that there are none) to attempt to get Jessie to think about this. IMHO any Christian organization worth its salt has some 'causes' they support. Whether it's a soup kitchen, Habitat for Humanity, a food bank, or even just handing out water and preparing meals for flood victims. Its one thing to study the bible but just as important to get out there and get to work. (And no, I don't mean getting people to take one of TWI's classes.)
This reminded me of a conversation that we had with Jessie recently. We were asking about missions that TWI supports (knowing that there are none) to attempt to get Jessie to think about this. IMHO any Christian organization worth its salt has some 'causes' they support. Whether it's a soup kitchen, Habitat for Humanity, a food bank, or even just handing out water and preparing meals for flood victims. Its one thing to study the bible but just as important to get out there and get to work. (And no, I don't mean getting people to take one of TWI's classes.)
Brainstormer......Twi's founder, victor paul wierwille, made his justifications to only serve "the word" [classes, teachings, outreach] and let OTHERS do the soup kitchens, food banks, homeless shelters, flood victims, etc. by cherry-picking Acts 6:1-7. And, this continues to be their go-to doctrine whenever this subject is broached. In this context, twi assumes that it is the modern-day equivalent of spiritual elites to handle "the ministry of the word" [translation: twi classes & teachings] while other laymen should "serve tables" and labor for the afflicted. Of course, twi does not tell their followers that they've amassed some $64 MILLION by "laying away treasures for themselves" via this exploitation.
Perhaps, when you are talking with Jessie......you might ask:
1) Why did twi experience a major exodus of followers [28,000 +/- ] after the founder died in 1985 if everything was so peachy?
2) Why have some 3,200 corps quit their involvement with twi? How many thousands of WOW Ambassadors have left?
3) Why have a central-command "headquarters" in Ohio and all monies funnel in to.....yet, no financial support to state-run events?
4) Where are all the Christian pictures and symbols at twi's headquarters? Why all the idolatry to wierwille and its trustees?
5) Why do people in St. Marys and New Knoxville, Ohio stay away from near-by twi?
6) Why does twi have its own armed security force patrolling up-and-down Wierwille Road day and night?
7) Why won't twi display its financial statements to its followers like mainstream churches do?
This reminded me of a conversation that we had with Jessie recently. We were asking about missions that TWI supports (knowing that there are none) to attempt to get Jessie to think about this. IMHO any Christian organization worth its salt has some 'causes' they support. Whether it's a soup kitchen, Habitat for Humanity, a food bank, or even just handing out water and preparing meals for flood victims. Its one thing to study the bible but just as important to get out there and get to work. (And no, I don't mean getting people to take one of TWI's classes.)
To argue that they don't give, volunteer or contribute to communities would make Jessie look ignorant at best.
And . . Shall we list how many ways thousands upon thousands of churches out there waste money?
I'm not sure I understand. How do they give, volunteer or contribute to communities? I do understand that churches waste money. But most churches have financial data that is 'open for viewing' to church members.
I'm not sure I understand. How do they give, volunteer or contribute to communities? I do understand that churches waste money. But most churches have financial data that is 'open for viewing' to church members.
In The Way at times I know I took part in volunteer health screenings, sometimes whole fellowships get together to help some poorer family in the neighborhood.
I don't think the question is, Why does The Way not have financial date "open for viewing". That's obvious. It's why do people consent to The Way's practices?
Plenty of old-timers know, or have heard enough to deny ignorance, Wierwille was a sexual predator. With nothing to gain, and plenty to lose, they stand with The Way. Why is an individual with The Way?
In The Way at times I know I took part in volunteer health screenings, sometimes whole fellowships get together to help some poorer family in the neighborhood.
I don't think the question is, Why does The Way not have financial date "open for viewing". That's obvious. It's why do people consent to The Way's practices?
Plenty of old-timers know, or have heard enough to deny ignorance, Wierwille was a sexual predator. With nothing to gain, and plenty to lose, they stand with The Way. Why is an individual with The Way?
I'd seen individuals who were generous in twi. I'd seen a few people who'd help someone together.
What we DIDN'T see was TWI being generous with finances- once money gets to the top, it stays there, almost always.
BrainStormer, by now you may have some idea on how much of a restraint the TWI mindset can exert on someone – and it’s not the same for everyone – since we’re all individuals. I believe the freedom to think is something we confer upon ourselves – and on the flip side, the freedom to think is something we also may surrender for various reasons.
I believe Grease Spot is a place that encourages TWI followers to break out of their mental prisons; speaking for myself, I know how confining and real the mental prison feels – though while I was in TWI I viewed this prison as a safe haven from the "evil world outside".
It was a courageous step for me to realize that I myself helped build that mental prison. I grant you, some of the “building materials” may have come from another source - the lies and deceit of victor paul wierwille! But my acceptance of his lies as true, combined with my own hopes, fears, shortcomings and desires – over the course of my involvement - made a fairly secure mental prison.
I think Skyrider’s questions are a great way to whet someone’s appetite to look a little deeper into TWI. Sometimes it can take just one little thing to get someone to think outside the box (or mental prison).
We are trying to maintain a loving relationship with Jessie. At the same time, we are asking a lot of questions with the hope that they will get Jessie thinking. We are sharing some information from ex-Wayers. And learning as much as we can about the problems/issues. We've had several long conversations but it's difficult to convince Jessie of anything since Jessie only sees puppies and rainbows at the home based fellowship level. So far, Jessie has not turned away from us.
We are trying to maintain a loving relationship with Jessie. At the same time, we are asking a lot of questions with the hope that they will get Jessie thinking. We are sharing some information from ex-Wayers. And learning as much as we can about the problems/issues. We've had several long conversations but it's difficult to convince Jessie of anything since Jessie only sees puppies and rainbows at the home based fellowship level. So far, Jessie has not turned away from us.
Chances are she won't turn away from you unless she thinks you are trying to tell her how to run her life... which can be difficult for parents in any situation.
The Way Specifically taught us, in very detailed fashion, that we should reject and resist consideration of anything that contradicts their version of "the word". In session 7 of Power For Abundant Living we are instructed to regard the 5 steps that Satan used to trick Eve, ultimately leading to her downfall. The very first step is "questioning the integrity of the word". That may sound innocuous on the surface but, remember, the parameters of what defines "the word" are determined by Way theology and dogma.
Later, in our series of studies, we find 2 classes that are designed to solidify our resolve to adhering to this practice. They are The Renewed Mind and Dealing With The Adversary. The primary purpose of both these classes is to refine our skills in resisting materials that do not conform to Way standards.
It's no coincidence that Way followers appear to be stubbornly loyal to their belief system.
The Way Specifically taught us, in very detailed fashion, that we should reject and resist consideration of anything that contradicts their version of "the word". In session 7 of Power For Abundant Living we are instructed to regard the 5 steps that Satan used to trick Eve, ultimately leading to her downfall. The very first step is "questioning the integrity of the word". That may sound innocuous on the surface but, remember, the parameters of what defines "the word" are determined by Way theology and dogma.
Later, in our series of studies, we find 2 classes that are designed to solidify our resolve to adhering to this practice. They are The Renewed Mind and Dealing With The Adversary. The primary purpose of both these classes is to refine our skills in resisting materials that do not conform to Way standards.
It's no coincidence that Way followers appear to be stubbornly loyal to their belief system.
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Belle
I'm late to the party but wanted to share what I can to help you, Brainstormer. My heart goes out to you. I was in my early 20's when I got involved with TWI and my local fellowship was also butt
Happyasaclam
Something I wish someone had suggested to me ... Ask the regular folks at fellowship, "what happens when someone decides to leave?" Can someone be a part of this outfit and leave without being sham
CLOSE CALL
One of the many red flags I seen in my association with wow's was that while they were in my town one's Mother died. I sat in wonder while I watched this gal beg on the phone for PERMISSION to at
T-Bone
maybe so...but i'm not letting them or me off the hook so easily.... i tend to view their "appeal to nobler motives" as a manipulative form of flattery - like "in this leadership role think of how many more people you'll get to bless / serve" - which sounds good and unselfish - and i fell for it thinking i must have a lot to give - - i'm just not aware of it yet....yeah it's all for the good of grooming another first class flunky for TWI.
my criticism addresses leadership / serving / responsibility in TWI
-TWI is parasitic and exploits its members - as an organization their modus operandi does not serve the devout followers of TWI nor "blesses" them in any way, shape or form....
- how TWI "manages" people - leads people - is more along the lines of manipulation and is always self-serving to the organization - that is the "greater good"
there's nothing noble about TWI's agenda or means...or the way i gobbled up their flattery
Edited by T-Boneto add an afterthought and for clarity
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Rocky
My comment was most definitely not intended to let them off the hook for anything. Their appeal to nobler motives is most assuredly manipulative rather than authentic.
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waysider
Two, three, even four decades after the fact, people still have trouble letting go of the (false) idea they were part of some sort of noble cause. You can see it time and again on a certain social media site, where people list their Way involvement as the highlight of their personal history.
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skyrider
Yep......parasitic and exploits its followers. Lying in wait to deceive others.
The upper-tier and long-time staffers live off the "blood, sweat and tears" of those on the field......those who got out witnessing, follow-up, knock on doors, run classes, encourage their family or co-workers to get involved and then, faithfully tithe or abs. Those who sit in the "upper seats" have their [temporary] reward of a life of ease and lording over others.
Sure, there is some scripture that has merit.......BUT one has to weed thru all the tweaking, and cherry-picking, and error-ridden dispensationalism and idolatrous mog-doctrine to substantiate any worth in that outfit. The place is a mine field.
And, where is the "charitable giving" of this NON-PROFIT (cough, cough) organization? What percentage goes out the door to help others? How much goes to the administrative/organizational/pleasure of the elites who sit and pontificate and lord over the unsuspecting? 40%? 50%? 60%? And, how much goes into twi's investments and savings accounts SO THAT THEY WILL ALWAYS SUSTAIN THEIR MANIPULATIVE WAYS?
And, Camp Gunnison.......now, just an exclusive pleasure resort for the upper elite in twi to go and be waited on hand-n-foot. Probably Howard is way-too-old to try and go elk hunting anymore. The place should be sold........and the proceeds should be distributed to thousands that twi savaged in their quest for self-gain.
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T-Bone
Rocky, I do apologize for the fuzziness of my post – i always appreciate your posts/input – I think sometimes I go for brevity and wind up painting in broad strokes; I do believe there is something to Carnegie’s principles – and I agree with you – like everything else that VPW got his exploitative paws on – it became a twisted and misused means to his egocentric agenda.
I think a lot of folks were captivated by VPW’s charisma and then that morphed into believing they were serving God and truly helping others. At least that’s what VPW told them.
Good folks – clergy, staff, devoted followers in programs, fellowships – whatever the level of involvement - doing their best for “the cause”; but they ALSO were exploited – their resources, time, efforts, money – even just their benevolent nature helped sustain TWI’s life-dominating system…
I believe good-natured folks who managed others in some capacity - tended to act like a buffer between those they serve and Pharisee Central (TWI Headquarters) - insulating folks from TWI’s legalism – the fanatical observance of VPW’s doctrines and practices.
In my humble opinion, true Christianity is centered on Christ.
Cults are centered on some other person.
When I first got involved with TWI in ’74 by taking their foundational class Power for Abundant Living – I thought it was all about Christ. His name is mentioned a lot at first. But as the class progressed – I came to find out “the Word” takes the place of the absent Christ – or so said the teacher VPW.
And if you stick around long enough you’ll come to understand “the Word” does not refer to the Bible or the Holy Bible or any particular translation or version. It’s VPW’s skewed interpretation of the Bible..... It’s really VPW’s Word.
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Brainstormer
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Brainstormer
This reminded me of a conversation that we had with Jessie recently. We were asking about missions that TWI supports (knowing that there are none) to attempt to get Jessie to think about this. IMHO any Christian organization worth its salt has some 'causes' they support. Whether it's a soup kitchen, Habitat for Humanity, a food bank, or even just handing out water and preparing meals for flood victims. Its one thing to study the bible but just as important to get out there and get to work. (And no, I don't mean getting people to take one of TWI's classes.)
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skyrider
Brainstormer......Twi's founder, victor paul wierwille, made his justifications to only serve "the word" [classes, teachings, outreach] and let OTHERS do the soup kitchens, food banks, homeless shelters, flood victims, etc. by cherry-picking Acts 6:1-7. And, this continues to be their go-to doctrine whenever this subject is broached. In this context, twi assumes that it is the modern-day equivalent of spiritual elites to handle "the ministry of the word" [translation: twi classes & teachings] while other laymen should "serve tables" and labor for the afflicted. Of course, twi does not tell their followers that they've amassed some $64 MILLION by "laying away treasures for themselves" via this exploitation.
Perhaps, when you are talking with Jessie......you might ask:
1) Why did twi experience a major exodus of followers [28,000 +/- ] after the founder died in 1985 if everything was so peachy?
2) Why have some 3,200 corps quit their involvement with twi? How many thousands of WOW Ambassadors have left?
3) Why have a central-command "headquarters" in Ohio and all monies funnel in to.....yet, no financial support to state-run events?
4) Where are all the Christian pictures and symbols at twi's headquarters? Why all the idolatry to wierwille and its trustees?
5) Why do people in St. Marys and New Knoxville, Ohio stay away from near-by twi?
6) Why does twi have its own armed security force patrolling up-and-down Wierwille Road day and night?
7) Why won't twi display its financial statements to its followers like mainstream churches do?
8) Etc. etc.
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waysider
"You just get 'em in the class. That's all the help they'll ever need.".........paraphrased from V.P.W.
Edited by waysiderI'm not sure that's a paraphrase. It might be an actual quote.
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Bolshevik
They give to the local Red Cross.
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skyrider
How benevolent of twi.......to toss in some dollars from that $64 MILLION.
Ppppfffttt
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Bolshevik
To argue that they don't give, volunteer or contribute to communities would make Jessie look ignorant at best.
And . . Shall we list how many ways thousands upon thousands of churches out there waste money?
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Brainstormer
Good suggestions for questions. Thank you Skyrider!
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Brainstormer
I'm not sure I understand. How do they give, volunteer or contribute to communities? I do understand that churches waste money. But most churches have financial data that is 'open for viewing' to church members.
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Bolshevik
In The Way at times I know I took part in volunteer health screenings, sometimes whole fellowships get together to help some poorer family in the neighborhood.
I don't think the question is, Why does The Way not have financial date "open for viewing". That's obvious. It's why do people consent to The Way's practices?
Plenty of old-timers know, or have heard enough to deny ignorance, Wierwille was a sexual predator. With nothing to gain, and plenty to lose, they stand with The Way. Why is an individual with The Way?
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WordWolf
I'd seen individuals who were generous in twi. I'd seen a few people who'd help someone together.
What we DIDN'T see was TWI being generous with finances- once money gets to the top, it stays there, almost always.
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Bolshevik
Well, I'll be interested to hear Jessie's response after confronting his/her leadership/wayfer-friends on the matter.
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T-Bone
Skyrider – great questions !!!!!!
BrainStormer, by now you may have some idea on how much of a restraint the TWI mindset can exert on someone – and it’s not the same for everyone – since we’re all individuals. I believe the freedom to think is something we confer upon ourselves – and on the flip side, the freedom to think is something we also may surrender for various reasons.
I believe Grease Spot is a place that encourages TWI followers to break out of their mental prisons; speaking for myself, I know how confining and real the mental prison feels – though while I was in TWI I viewed this prison as a safe haven from the "evil world outside".
It was a courageous step for me to realize that I myself helped build that mental prison. I grant you, some of the “building materials” may have come from another source - the lies and deceit of victor paul wierwille! But my acceptance of his lies as true, combined with my own hopes, fears, shortcomings and desires – over the course of my involvement - made a fairly secure mental prison.
I think Skyrider’s questions are a great way to whet someone’s appetite to look a little deeper into TWI. Sometimes it can take just one little thing to get someone to think outside the box (or mental prison).
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Twinky
Brainstormer, how's it going with Jessie?
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Brainstormer
We are trying to maintain a loving relationship with Jessie. At the same time, we are asking a lot of questions with the hope that they will get Jessie thinking. We are sharing some information from ex-Wayers. And learning as much as we can about the problems/issues. We've had several long conversations but it's difficult to convince Jessie of anything since Jessie only sees puppies and rainbows at the home based fellowship level. So far, Jessie has not turned away from us.
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Rocky
Chances are she won't turn away from you unless she thinks you are trying to tell her how to run her life... which can be difficult for parents in any situation.
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waysider
Something worthy of note:
The Way Specifically taught us, in very detailed fashion, that we should reject and resist consideration of anything that contradicts their version of "the word". In session 7 of Power For Abundant Living we are instructed to regard the 5 steps that Satan used to trick Eve, ultimately leading to her downfall. The very first step is "questioning the integrity of the word". That may sound innocuous on the surface but, remember, the parameters of what defines "the word" are determined by Way theology and dogma.
Later, in our series of studies, we find 2 classes that are designed to solidify our resolve to adhering to this practice. They are The Renewed Mind and Dealing With The Adversary. The primary purpose of both these classes is to refine our skills in resisting materials that do not conform to Way standards.
It's no coincidence that Way followers appear to be stubbornly loyal to their belief system.
Edited by waysiderclarification
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skyrider
EXACTLY.
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Twinky
Brainstormer, check your PMs.
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