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George Maciver

George Maciver

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Hi, one or two of you have mentioned me in other posts so thought I'd stop in and say hello. Not here to start a fight, not at all, we all have eternal life and when Jesus Christ returns, we will all be together and we will all get to know each other and we all enjoy each others company. I'm looking forward to it very much.

I have no issues with anyone. I have no issues with Victor. I have no issues with Craig. I have no issues with Chris. I have no issues with Robert. I have no issues with Rosalie. I have no issues with Vince, or John, or Ricardo, I have no issues with anyone.

It was on a boat sailing up the Gulf of Aqaba in the Red Sea in 1977 when I first asked God for help and asked him to show me the way. He saved my life, and the next day when we tied up alongside in the port of Aqaba, I got a letter from my sister telling me my cousin Ross Munro was in some weird American cult called The Way. Well, how's that for an answer to prayer? When we got back to Southampton, I resigned from the Merchant Navy, and when I got home, I packed my bags and headed over to Stornoway to find my cousin Ross. Took PFAL in April 1978 and went WOW in London the same year. After that I went to Aberdeen and ran a home church there. It was while I was in Aberdeen Victor died.

No need to go into details on the nightmare that was the next few years, but I kept studying everything that was available. I took Chris' classes, including his Advanced Class. I took Craig's classes, including the so-called leadership tapes. I took a few of Rosalie's new classes, though I can't remember now who the teachers were.

In 2006 I completely washed my hands of the whole mess and settled in the Highlands and had nothing to do with anyone.

Now, this is where my story really begins. What Victor did was pull together a mountain of jigsaw pieces from hundreds of sources and spent his life trying to piece it all together. Chris had a few pieces. Craig, believe it or not, had a few pieces. Rosalie, believe it or not even had a few pieces. I've spent 40 years putting the pieces together and now I can clearly see the big picture that God does not dwell in temples made with hands. Victor didn't see it. If he had, he would have realised The Way International was fast becoming a temple made with hands. He should have dismantled the entire Way Ministry before his death and committed the word to the worldwide home church leaders and given them the responsibility to take the word forward.

The first century church thrived because there was no 'ministry', no headquarters, no structured organisation staffed by 'leadership'. There was no structure of leadership running the first century church. Every home church was self supporting, self governing and self propagating and the gift ministries travelled around and energised their ministries where they were needed. Each home church was the headquarters of the move of the Word in that area. All the tithes and abundant sharing stayed within each home church. The home church leaders were the ones who made the decisions on what was done with that tithe money. There was no centralised 'ministry' headquarters where everyone sent all the tithe money off to. When Paul needed financial support, it was the home church leaders who sent him that support from the tithe monies they were responsible to steward.

Folks, we need to get back to running home churches that are self governing, self supporting and self propagating. We need to walk away from any man made structures, organisations, ministries or religions, because God will have nothing to do with anything man constructs to put his religion into. We don't need no broken cisterns, to paraphrase Pink Floyd. This is a family, we are family, we need home churches where folks can enjoy a family environment to thrive and grow in. A home church leader is the highest position available in the body of Christ. Ever heard that before? No one needs a ministry to tell them what to do. We walk by the spirit with Christ as our head.

All those pieces of the puzzle that Victor and others amassed, I spent 40 years gathering and piecing together. The big picture is now published online and in the public domain. I gave the rights to my work to God, asked him what he wanted me to do with it, and he said publish it to the public domain and that's what I did. I make no money at all from this, not a penny. It's all at my website.

www.walkingbythespirit.com

You can read the three classes for free on your phones, iPads, kindles, laptops, computers, whatever, for free. You can download the classes in pdf and word format for free. Yes, you can buy a hard copy at Amazon but I make no profit on sales of the books and have no interest in making any money from sales of the books. All I have ever cared about was seeing the word live.

Now, can we please quit all the bickering and fire up some home churches and get the body of Christ energised again.

:beer:

Edited by George Maciver

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Hello,  George

Welcome to GSC. You and I undoubtedly have differing opinions on many topics. That's OK, though. Healthy discussion of differences leads to deeper understanding of the issues and the individuals discussing them. As you pointed out, bickering is counterproductive and to be avoided. It looks like you've put a good deal of thought into your online endeavor. I commend you for your effort and enthusiasm. Things here can seem contentious from time to time. It's all part of the process. We're glad you've decided to get on board. Feel free to ask questions and disagree whenever you feed the need. All we really ask is for the conversation to remain civil and productive. I hope you will find your time here productive.

 

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Hello W. Is Green a reference to someone I know? One day we will have to sort things out with each other and we all get along and we will all enjoy each others company. No idea how that's going to happen, but if God can sort out the mess Adam and Eve got us into, I have no doubts he can sort this mess out as well. How else could we possibly judge angels in the next administration? How else could we possibly help Christ sort things out on earth when we come back with him? Might as well start getting along now hey? Might make things easier later.

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51 minutes ago, George Maciver said:

Is Green a reference to someone I know?

 

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welcome to Grease Spot, George and thanks for sharing your story...I look forward to your input - and along the lines of what Waysider said, a good, civil discussion helps broaden everyone's horizon.

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On 3/24/2020 at 9:46 AM, George Maciver said:

I've spent 40 years putting the pieces together and now I can clearly see the big picture that God does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Welcome, George

It took 40 years to discover what "normal" churches have been teaching for decades?

You have taken the time to study non-TWI related materials, haven't you?  There are really good Jewish-interpretation sites, NT-Greek sites, and various reputable commentaries.  I looked at your website but not at the articles you included.  You've probably made more of an effort than VPW did, for sure; he chose what he thought he could easily palm off as his own, and what he could use to browbeat others.  But -

On 3/24/2020 at 9:46 AM, George Maciver said:

a mountain of jigsaw pieces from hundreds of sources

- is unlikely to be a fair reflection of genuine study on his part.  Rather, he collected snippets, jigsaw pieces as you describe them, that suited his own agenda.  He didn't match the completed jigsaw to the picture on the box, but rather fitted the jigsaw pieces together as a small child might, ramming them into approximate places.  2 Tim 4:3 seems apposite.  Here's the Berean Study Bible version:

For the time will come when men [VPW] will not tolerate sound doctrine [walked away from established church], but with itching ears they [VPW] will gather around themselves teachers [even respected theologians] to suit their own desires [and so to found his own "ministry" to give place to his lusts].

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Hello Twinky, I have the feeling I know you. Thanks for saying hello. I'm not here to pick fights, or take sides. Here in few words is an overview of what I've learned.

Men are not evil. It is temples made with hands that are evil. God does not dwell in temples made with hands, so when men submit themselves to them, God is not there. That's why our lives cave in when we submit to them.

God energises in home church leaders to move the word in their area. The church in the home is where God energises in this administration. God works with home church leaders. Home church leaders walk by the spirit, Christ is their head, and the word moves, life comes alive, everything is fresh and real, and life works.

To stop this, the enemy constructs religious organisations to take control away from the home church leaders. When that happens, God steps out because he does not dwell in temples made with hands and will have nothing to do with them. That is how you cut off the fountain of living waters. When home church leaders submit to any ministry or organisation constructed by men, whether it is The Way International or the Roman Catholic Church, they forsake the fountain of living waters, they walk away from God and put their trust in men, which is walking by the senses.

When home church leaders do their own thing and run home churches that are self governing, self supporting and self propagating, with no interference from without, and walk with Christ as their head, the word moves and life is amazing. When home church leaders submit to structures of leadership in man made temples, God steps out because he will not work in that framework. God absolutely will NOT give revelation to leadership in temples made with hands to pass on to home church leaders. When religious organisations take control away from the home church leaders, that's the point where God steps out and you have yet another broken cistern where men put their trust in themselves and walk by the flesh by making decisions in counsels of men thinking there is safety in a multitude of counselors. There is nothing safe about walking by the senses, no matter how many people were involved. We must learn to energise the Christ in us and walk by the spirit.

Now, whether anyone here likes this or not, if Rosalie, Chris Geer, or Craig Martindale started a home church right at this moment, God would work in them to will and to do of his good pleasure to get the word moving. He would work in you too. God is faithful, and he always does his job. It is not men that are evil, it is the ridiculous broken cisterns men construct and submit themselves to that are evil. That's why our lives cave in when we submit to them.

Now, if anyone here starts a home church of their own that is self governing, self supporting and self propagating, they will find that the word does indeed work and that God is there and that the more abundant life really is available. No one needs a ministry to start a home church, you just need a room somewhere. What do you think all this social distancing the world is pushing on us is about? Keeping us safe? Yeah right.

We need some home churches fired up folks. Anyone up for it?

Edited by George Maciver

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Hi George.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if we've met, long long ago.  Gartmore, Birminghamor possibly London?

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12 hours ago, George Maciver said:

 

We need some home churches fired up folks. Anyone up for it?

Nevertheless, keeping physical distance (6 feet) from each other is the MOST important thing we can all do to limit the reach of the virus in this pandemic.

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28 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Hi George.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if we've met, long long ago.  Gartmore, Birminghamor possibly London?

Yeah, probably Twinky. I was in London '78-'79, and used to drive to Gartmore every weekend from Aberdeen for the sunday service, did it for years. I was in Birmingham once or twice for something or other, probably stayed in a Holiday Inn, can't remember now.

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On 3/26/2020 at 8:05 PM, Rocky said:

Nevertheless, keeping physical distance (6 feet) from each other is the MOST important thing we can all do to limit the reach of the virus in this pandemic.

So, home-church on Skype or something, is that what you're suggesting?    :)

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5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

So, home-church on Skype or something, is that what you're suggesting?    :)

That's certainly one option, but not necessarily the only one.

I "said what I meant, and meant (only) what I said."

I've been reading up on the history of pandemics, notably the 1918 Spanish Flu.

Anyone not living under a rock knows by now of the concept/practice awkwardly titled social distancing.

I wanted to get more understanding than simply accepting what we're hearing on broadcast news, or in print journalism.
 

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George, I forget myself.  Draw up a chair (keeping your physical distance) and have a coffee and a bite to eat with the other Café patrons.  You too, Waxit.

 

coffee-3163596_1280.jpg

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Looks yummy Twinkie, and a cup of tea is definitely in order. While I'm here, you don't have to be a genius to figure out that if Master Baal has his world totally locked down and is banning meetings of more than 2 people with threats of huge fines or detainment in solitary confinement that the word is moving at the home church level on a global scale. I can't find anything though. Who is moving the word? It isn't the TWI, that's for sure.

Edited by George Maciver

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I'll join you for that tea, George.  Well, I went to church this morning.  Online church.  Those necessary recorded their parts - prayers, notices, songs, and of course sermon (very good, encouraging - we have a great new vicar) - and there's a chat box at the side where the congregation can log in and greet others, and another more private chat box for those who want prayer.  It works really well, there's still a real sense of community and shared worship, and yet personal succour.

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On 3/28/2020 at 5:25 PM, WordWolf said:

So, home-church on Skype or something, is that what you're suggesting?    :)

But instead of standing shoulder-to-shoulder with fellow congregants — Fink in her Paradise Valley synagogue, Lucero in her Catholic parish in Glendale — the women, and millions of others, now worship via television, YouTube, Facebook or Zoom.

For people of all faiths, prayer has taken on a new solitude.
----


This time I am suggesting alternatives. :love3:

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Good point – my problem is most of the time I don’t know what I’m talking about …and I’m lazy so I hit the repeat button…ah shoot I’ve said too much already.

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14 hours ago, George Maciver said:

dalailamaquote.jpg

Preferably, someone you'd want to learn something from. :wink2:

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On 3/26/2020 at 8:30 PM, George Maciver said:

Hello Twinky, I have the feeling I know you. Thanks for saying hello. I'm not here to pick fights, or take sides. Here in few words is an overview of what I've learned.

Men are not evil. It is temples made with hands that are evil. God does not dwell in temples made with hands, so when men submit themselves to them, God is not there. That's why our lives cave in when we submit to them.

God energises in home church leaders to move the word in their area. The church in the home is where God energises in this administration. God works with home church leaders. Home church leaders walk by the spirit, Christ is their head, and the word moves, life comes alive, everything is fresh and real, and life works.

To stop this, the enemy constructs religious organisations to take control away from the home church leaders. When that happens, God steps out because he does not dwell in temples made with hands and will have nothing to do with them. That is how you cut off the fountain of living waters. When home church leaders submit to any ministry or organisation constructed by men, whether it is The Way International or the Roman Catholic Church, they forsake the fountain of living waters, they walk away from God and put their trust in men, which is walking by the senses.

When home church leaders do their own thing and run home churches that are self governing, self supporting and self propagating, with no interference from without, and walk with Christ as their head, the word moves and life is amazing. When home church leaders submit to structures of leadership in man made temples, God steps out because he will not work in that framework. God absolutely will NOT give revelation to leadership in temples made with hands to pass on to home church leaders. When religious organisations take control away from the home church leaders, that's the point where God steps out and you have yet another broken cistern where men put their trust in themselves and walk by the flesh by making decisions in counsels of men thinking there is safety in a multitude of counselors. There is nothing safe about walking by the senses, no matter how many people were involved. We must learn to energise the Christ in us and walk by the spirit.

Now, whether anyone here likes this or not, if Rosalie, Chris Geer, or Craig Martindale started a home church right at this moment, God would work in them to will and to do of his good pleasure to get the word moving. He would work in you too. God is faithful, and he always does his job. It is not men that are evil, it is the ridiculous broken cisterns men construct and submit themselves to that are evil. That's why our lives cave in when we submit to them.

Now, if anyone here starts a home church of their own that is self governing, self supporting and self propagating, they will find that the word does indeed work and that God is there and that the more abundant life really is available. No one needs a ministry to start a home church, you just need a room somewhere. What do you think all this social distancing the world is pushing on us is about? Keeping us safe? Yeah right.

We need some home churches fired up folks. Anyone up for it?

there would STILL need to be overseers to lead, stand up, organize, confront, mediate...look at some of the 'whack jobs' like that dude mentioned on here, Barnard, that was screwing all his young maidens, his first name escapes me at the moment...mans heart is evil !!

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12 hours ago, Allan said:

there would STILL need to be overseers to lead, stand up, organize, confront, mediate...look at some of the 'whack jobs' like that dude mentioned on here, Barnard, that was screwing all his young maidens, his first name escapes me at the moment...mans heart is evil !!

Yeah, I agree with you Allan...oh and that Victor Barnard dude is ex-TWI  too !!! That sexual predator (Barnard) embraced the most morally depraved part of wierwille-centric theology.

What was lacking in the “ministries” of wierwille and Barnard was exactly what you brought up. They were answerable to no one!!!

No overseers to confront them or stand up to them! And that is what this guy thinks is just fine for “moving the word”:

Quote

When home church leaders do their own thing and run home churches that are self governing, self supporting and self propagating, with no interference from without, and walk with Christ as their head, the word moves and life is amazing. When home church leaders submit to structures of leadership in man made temples, God steps out because he will not work in that framework.

Sorry to burst his bubble on his plan for “moving the word” but there are reasons why the pastoral epistles (I & II Timothy and Titus) were written – they’re addressed to individuals with pastoral oversight of churches and of those who oversee other pastors – another word for “oversee” is “supervise” These pastoral epistles discuss issues of Christian living, doctrine and of course qualifications of leadership. I Timothy 3:2 says an overseer is to be above reproach.- and there are a number of attributes and concerns that Paul talks about. And in Titus 1, we read of Paul giving directions to Titus to appoint elders AS PAUL DIRECTED him to: 5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach…”

By the way him saying church in the home should be “self governing, self supporting and self propagating,” is a bunch of BS that he regurgitated from wierwille! It’s a joke! TWI’s fellowships out in the field never operated that way BECAUSE it was pipe dream – some unobtainable delusion that wierwille had after he co-opted the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous   

So here is the big picture. The church is already set up very simply - -  - there is no hierarchy.

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually…I Corinthians 12:27 NKJV

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence…Colossians 1:18 NKJV

== == == ==        === == == ==

And there's another issue with what he said -

Quote

When home church leaders submit to structures of leadership in man made temples, God steps out because he will not work in that framework

Now where in the Bible does it say that ? Chapter and verse please.

I’ve read - and reread several of the articles on his website, and to summarize my critique of his articles, it seems like he's also bear-hugged some of that wierwille-centric theology  -

- but let me be clear on this - 

it’s NOT so much there’s a lot of PFAL stuff on his website -  - though there’s  stuff in PFAL that I still think has merit - I am concerned about the way he presents himself. I doubt his claims of how much he has “researched” the stuff himself…looks like he plagiarized a lot f stuff - reworded the teachings so it looks like his ideas - not giving credit where credit is due…well, what do you know – that’s another “wonderful” trait of wierwille-centric theology. (for some reason I thought of rrobs the former pilot for wierwille - and on Grease Spot he was another great wierwille-centric theologian - had his own website where he had wierwille's books or parts of them on it)

I literally meant wierwille-centric because what he says (aside of any PFAL stuff)  - appears to be tinged with the same “spiritual elitism” that wierwille exhibited…pontificating like he has the authority …or rather he is the authoritative source to speak for God and then actually dictate  what God will or will not do. What audacity!!!!

Edited by T-Bone
Revision-centric

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