Was vpw a con artist AND ONLY a con artist?
9 members have voted
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1. Was vpw a con artist and ONLY a con artist?
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Yes, vpw was a con artist, and that's all he ever was, only a con artist.1
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No, vpw was not a con artist.0
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No. vpw was indeed a con artist, but he was other things as well- like a father, a guitar player, a plagiarist, a farmer, rapist, a preacher, a simonist....8
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WordWolf
From time to time, someone eager to elevate vpw as an excellent preacher, an exceptional preacher, and a singularly significant preacher in the eyes of God Almighty throws a fit at the rest of us. They then object to a claim that none of us ever made. In this case, it was that we had an "infallible doctrine" and that doctrine was that vpw was only a con artist and nothing else. None of us ever said that. From time to time, I take one of those claims and make a poll- does anyone here claim that? The claim is that the majority of us, or all of us, make such a claim, but I tend to wonder if ANY of us made such a claim. So, I ask.
What do you people say?
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Rocky
I say that I can't know what's in the heart of a person. But I can evaluate his public actions and things others attest to.
Edited by RockySo, I believe (that's an I statement) he was a con artist from way back. But I don't claim to know if he was always and only so.
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Rocky
One learns something new everyday.
From UrbanDictionary.com for simonist
From Wiktionary for simonist.
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waysider
Well, I mean, we're ALL "something else", as well. And, that's important. But, in the context of Way history, I'm personally not all that interested in whatever else he may have been outside of his role as a religious leader.
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T-Bone
As I mentioned on another thread - here – “I’ve NEVER said wierwille was just a con artist AND NOTHING ELSE. There’s MANY POSTS on Grease Spot where I’ve listed how MULTI-TALENTED he was. He was not JUST a con artist but also an unabashed plagiarist, sexual predator, malignant narcissist, megalomaniac, pathological liar, a poser, a harmful and controlling cult-leader, a voracious wolf in sheep’s clothing, a mean-drunk-Drambuie-guzzler with delusions of grandeur - obviously the man had a lot of issues - I'm just mentioning the ones I know about.”
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Rocky
But was he a simonist?
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T-Bone
Well I’d rule out the first definition you gave - 200 + I Q …the other one comes close - wierwille buying a church office …uhm - he did buy the title of “Doctor” from a degree-granting mill.
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OldSkool
Personally, I have never said that or believed that in any sort of way. Obviously, there was more to VPW than being a con-man although the fact that he was a con man tainted his whole character.
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waysider
I'll just jump right to Godwin's Law here and state that Hitler was a lot of things besides the monster he is remembered to be. In the grand scheme of things, do we really care what personal accomplishments he may have achieved?
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OldSkool
Thats a really good point. I think that vpw's followers pull as many logic fallacies as they can to avoid tackling the issues we discuss here on GSC. That VPW was a plagaraist, adulterer, false prophet, liar, etc. I can think of no scripture ever that balances out someone's evil deeds by the good they may do somewhere along the way.
To me it sound like a straw man argument. Instead of dealing with the issues we discuss here on GSC someone comes along and raises the riducoulous argument that we say that he was only a con-man and there was nothing else to him. Then they attack that fake issue and avoid the real issues. Anywho.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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Nathan_Jr
If one knows by observation or revelation (the second time establishes it) that VPW was a con artist, what else matters?
What else is left to cling to? That he was a skilled rapist? An prolific plagiarist? An inept teacher? He was a thief come to steal, kill, and destroy. What could possibly blot that out? What? He pet his dogs? So what?
And there was never a doctrine, infallible or otherwise, about VPW the con artist. Everything is not doctrine. Some things are simply there to be seen, if one has eyes to see.
Edited by Nathan_JrT7TMOG wears bloody gloves, clown shoes and drives a tiny car
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Rocky
IIRC, DWBH even relayed first hand stories about Vic being physically abusive to his dog(s).
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Nathan_Jr
What a farce! A dark, dark comedy of wickedness. What a real piece of trash this little charlatan was. Clearly, NOT a man of God.
Edited by Nathan_JrIs there no redeeming quality for this sadistic con artist?
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WordWolf
A) From all accounts, vpw was never involved in raising his kids, and vpw was never involved in raising his dogs.
B) On the subjects of raising dogs and raising kids, vpw recommended the same book as a guide for BOTH- "Hunt Close"- a book written for training dogs. (As if he knew enough about raising EITHER well, enough to recommend something healthy, and was not "to child-raising what Jeffrey Dahmer was to fine dining." ) That book reportedly says that to raise a dog, one is to praise good behavior and punish severely all bad behavior. Modern dog-raising techniques CONDEMN this practice, because it's shown to improve the dog's behavior ONLY WHEN THE HANDLER IS AROUND, and not a general improvement. Other than vpw- and anyone listening to him- ever recommends this book or this sort of thing for raising children- as if vpw knows anything about raising children by experience. This is the same man who abandoned his 2nd child for more than a year, as an infant, while his dad, his mom, and his older brother (the 1st child) traveled all over India on vpw's famous India tour, leaving him with family.
So, in public, were things seen as having gone well with vpw and either? Sometimes- but that was appearances, and he wasn't really responsible for any successes there because he never put in the work with either. Anybody who's raised either- or both- can tell you that doing EITHER right takes WORK, time and effort, things which vpw was never fond of expending.
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WordWolf
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simony
"the buying or selling of a church office or ecclesiastical preferment"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simony
"Simony is the act of selling church offices and roles or sacred things."
Although people point out vpw's degree mill degree was largely the result of payment in full and not the result of a peer-reviewed curriculum, I wasn't thinking of vpw as the one who bought a church office- although it appears he did.
I was thinking of how his son, dw, wanted to leave twi and have nothing to do with it and work in education- until vpw bought a school and contrived to have dw run the thing and contrived to keep him in the twi hierarchy and cadre. Based on comments dw said in vpw's last few years, and the few years after vpw's death, it sounds to me like dw deeply regretted letting vpw talk him into staying, and being entangled with twi so deeply.
So, a simonist based on both the buying AND the selling of church office.
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WordWolf
As a matter of curiosity, I'd like to point out vpw was not a good farmer. All accounts agree that he ran off as a kid and skipped out on his farm chores for hours. Decades later, his brother Harry claimed that vpw was off "preaching to the trees" and that's why he'd run off. However, neither Harry nor anyone else actually SAW vpw doing that. That's because vpw hadn't shown much interest in preaching as a kid- he was interested in music and business before switching to preaching. Furthermore, the anecdote of "preaching to the trees" was plagiarized from Billy Graham, who preached to the trees and gave altar calls to the trees to practice overcoming stage fright.
His own farmer was skeptical of vpw's suitability to be a preacher. By vpw's own admission, he said that he thought that vpw wouldn't be a good preacher because he wasn't even an adequate farmer. (That was recounded in TW-LiL and discussed in the thread "The Way-Living in Wonderland.")
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Rocky
Did you mean to say his own FATHER?
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Nathan_Jr
One can abuse their dogs, yet remain uninvolved in their raising, right? Sorry, it almost sounds like you are disputing the dog abuse by not acknowledging it. Just want to be clear.
Was the book Hunt Close! recommended reading in addition to The Thirteenth Tribe and The Myth of the Six Million? Was Hunt Close! in the TWI bookstore?
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waysider
Hunt Close (Jerome B. Robinson) is in current, mainstream circulation. It was released in 1978 and rereleased in 1993. Wierwille recommended it to Way Corps as a guide to... child rearing. I don't know if it was available through the bookstore, but was/is readily available from major booksellers, such as Amazon.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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WordWolf
Yes. I was typing faster than I thought.
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WordWolf
vpw didn't spend that much time with his dogs. I don't know if he abused them personally DURING that time. His standing instructions for their care- if based on "Hunt Close" as he claimed- WAS abusive. Whether or not that counts as him abusing the dogs is a matter for philosophers and lawyers to debate, I think.
BTW, "The Thirteenth Tribe" and "Myth of the Six Million" have BOTH been discredited by reliable sources. In fact, I think the only people who take EITHER book seriously are either vpw fan(atic)s or white supremacists. We've discussed both books before.
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks, WW. I'll do a search for the accounts of animal abuse. But I get your point. The book recommends abuse, victor champions the book as a guide to best practices; so, one could infer that victor abused his dogs. Simple logic. In light of the mountains of evidence already against vic, I'll accept the inference.
It seems Hunt Close! was the precursor to the Tedd Tripp book so love by TWI and other fundamentalist-evangelical Christian zealots.
And, yes, indeed. I was aware of the incredulity of those books even before I knew victor recommended them. It doesn't take much to discredit them - a mere, half-awake whisper of understanding demolishes the counterfeit structure of hay on which those books are based. It requires willful ignorance or stupidity or spiritual wickedness to recommend those books - to even mention them without condemnation.
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Rocky
It happens. No problem, figured you'd want to be clear in retrospect.
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Twinky
People might be interested in episodes or shorts of "It's Me or the Dog!" - available on YouTube. Watch how Victoria Stilwell trains dogs. Always with kindness. often coaxed with (rewarded by) food treats. Not punished for "wrong" or unwanted behaviour, just ignored until the dogs are calm, and then rewarded for calm behaviour.
You won't see her or anyone else kicking a dog in the face to teach it who's boss.
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