Tape called "Light Began to Dawn." A Partial transcript. Selling Plurality. SNT 214

[T-Bone]

On 9/24/2022 at 1:02 PM, Mike said:

Baloney !!!

I looked at the good fruit first, and THEN I started to believe his claims.

It occurred to me that I didn't have the ability to look at the fruit in HIS life, but in my life, and in the lives of my friends who took the class, the fruit was (and still is) abundant and good. 

This process is STILL going on, where people get massively blessed with the collaterals when they take the new TWI foundational class.  They get to see the fruit in their lives as they put the content of the collaterals into their Bible reading and lives. 

Many thousands right this minute are thankful for PFAL and how it helped them.  You folks missed this bus, but there is still another one you can catch.  It's not too late.  It will be too late someday.

Coming back to PFAL meekly would work for you folks, 
if you looked away from your manufactured anti-idol,
and looked instead at how to work with God by saturating your minds
with the revelation God taught VPW to put into writing to us.

 

Mike said: I looked at the good fruit first, and THEN I started to believe his claims. It occurred to me that I didn't have the ability to look at the fruit in HIS life, but in my life, and in the lives of my friends who took the class, the fruit was (and still is) abundant and good.

T-Bone’s response: perhaps you were deceived by the wax fruit

Found this today - here’s a used item on eBay -  Vintage MCM Wax Fruit Realistic Tones 8 Pieces - $12

looks real doesn't it... back when I was a kid, my friend's mother had a bowl of wax fruit on the table - it always looked so good - one day I grabbed the apple and bit into it - yuk!  not so good...Sorry Mrs. P   

 

 

Jesus warned us about bad fruit:

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.  

Matthew 7: 15 - 20

 

   

Ah, so there’s good fruit and bad fruit. I think a lot of TWI-followers were fooled by the wax fruit wierwille put on the table - his public persona.

We speak of the fruits of one's labor - the outcome or rewards of one's work or efforts – so that brings to mind some rather obvious things he’s produced – not sure if we should count the enormity of plagiarized materials in PFAL class and books, since he didn’t really produce them – rather he illegally reproduced them and slapped his name on it.

What else? Well, there’s The Way International – nonprofit organization.

A non-profit organization is a group organized for purposes other than generating profit and in which no part of the organization's income is distributed to its members, directors, or officers…They can take the form of a corporation, an individual enterprise (for example, individual charitable contributions), unincorporated association, partnership, foundation (distinguished by its endowment by a founder, it takes the form of a trusteeship), or condominium (joint ownership of common areas by owners of adjacent individual units incorporated under state condominium acts). Non-profit organizations include churches, public schools, public charities, public clinics and hospitals, political organizations, legal aid societies, volunteer services organizations, labor unions, professional associations, research institutes, museums, and some governmental agencies…

…Non-profit entities are organized under state law. For non-profit corporations, some states have adopted the Revised Model Non-Profit Corporation Act (1986)…State law also governs solicitation privileges and accreditations requirements such as licenses and permits. Each state defines non-profit differently. Some states make distinctions between organizations not operated for profit without charitable goals (like a sports or professional association) and charitable associations in order to determine what legal privileges the respective organizations will be given.    From: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/non-profit_organizations

 

The term “nonprofit” means different things to many different people. It’s a commonly used word without a common understanding between writer and reader. People often use the words “nonprofit” and “tax exempt” interchangeably. Congress has created almost three dozen types of tax-exempt organizations in different sections of the tax code…

 …Each section identifies certain conditions that must be met to be exempt from paying federal income taxes. The one common condition is not paying out profits (“no part of the organization’s net earnings can inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual”); hence the term, “nonprofit.” Section 501(c)(3) of the tax code refers to “public charities” (also known as charitable nonprofits) and “private foundations.” The tax code considers “churches and religious organizations” (which the IRS defines to include mosques, synagogues, temples, and other houses of worship) to be "public charities.” From     https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/what-is-a-nonprofit

TWI is small potatoes compared to larger cults that have tax-exempt status – while there is a lot of wiggle room on defining nonprofit and tax exempt depending on Federal and State laws – I believe there are a lot of similarities with Scientology - in terms of being very harmful and controlling - and in the unusual and unbiblical elements mixed into their ideology.

 

 I’ve list a few hyperlinks below on TWI and Scientology – there’s some articles and books which get into the shady and intimidating tactics of Scientology you might find interesting. That’s all I’ll say on TWI’s financial stuff…being how they seem to be shrinking to less and less significance and importance – I tend to think if they had the resources of Scientology they’d probably conduct some devious and menacing operations on par with Scientology.

Also see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_International

https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Scientology-Americas-Secretive-Religion/dp/0547750358/

Inside Scientology: The Story of America's Most Secretive Religion by Janet Reitman

 

https://www.amazon.com/Going-Clear-Scientology-Hollywood-Prison/dp/0307745309/

Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief Paperback by Lawrence Wright

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2017/11/12/irs-and-scientology-everything-you-want-to-know-and-more/?sh=264cf42f4042

Forbes article on the IRS and Scientology

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/irs.html

clearing house for reports/court records on Scientology vs IRS controversy.

~ ~ ~ ~

Of course, there's other fruits of wierwille’s labor such as the WOW program, University of Life, Fellow Laborers program, way corps program. I can speak from experience about the WOW and way corps programs – they promised so much and delivered so little – and both had deleterious effects to my finances, social networks, family, marriage, mental health, and career.

~ ~ ~ ~

Paul in Galatians talked more about fruit – mostly the intangible kind:

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

 

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Galatians 5: 13 – 26

 

Note that Paul said, “the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”” Loving yourself is not only personal – it is self-referential. I’ve got a few hyperlinks on that idea – but the big takeaway for me is that I should be constantly running a subroutine in my head which is always asking critical questions about my priorities and checking - whether my intentions and actions are out of tune with my ideology; as a Christian – among other things, it means being honest with myself and being kind, considerate, gracious, and forgiving.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/stronger-the-broken-places/201606/self-referential-is-being-internally-self-referenced

Psychology Today: being internally self-referenced

 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/self-reference/

Plato Stanford Edu: self-reference

https://optimistminds.com/self-reference-effect/

Optimist Minds: the self-reference effect

 

Of course, the golden rule works the way God intended it if you're honest with yourself.

 

 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A12&version=ESV  

So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.   Matthew 7:12

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A12&version=ESV

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Wikipedia: the golden rule

 

If you were in TWI but never participated in any of the programs I mentioned – you probably have a different opinion of wierwille and TWI – probably a less informed one, that enjoys the superficial aspects – the wax fruit.

But many who have been through the various programs have seen, heard about or know someone victimized by the dark underbelly of the beast – wierwille and certain other TWI-leadership with their sexual immorality, debauchery, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, factions, envy, drunkenness like what’s described in Galatians 5.

That does not reflect the good fruit of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 5: 22ff… love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control – these attributes are polar opposites of the works of the flesh.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Mike said: This process is STILL going on, where people get massively blessed with the collaterals when they take the new TWI foundational class.  They get to see the fruit in their lives as they put the content of the collaterals into their Bible reading and lives.

Many thousands right this minute are thankful for PFAL and how it helped them.  You folks missed this bus, but there is still another one you can catch.  It's not too late.  It will be too late someday.

Coming back to PFAL meekly would work for you folks,

if you looked away from your manufactured anti-idol,

and looked instead at how to work with God by saturating your minds

with the revelation God taught VPW to put into writing to us.

 

T-Bone’s response: perhaps Mike is seriously deluded, is lying through his teeth, or  acting like a troll (or maybe all 3             )  to claim people are still getting massively blessed with the collaterals when they take the new TWI foundational class…

The “bad seed” of PFAL will still produce bad fruit.

Mike says Coming back to PFAL   meekly   would work for you folks…

Yikes! You mean like a whipped puppy?!?! “Meekly” ? In a quiet, gentle, and submissive manner?

"Thank you, sir, may I have another"

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

and what the hell is a manufactured anti-idol?  I’ve decoded Mike’s mishmash terminology on another thread    - here

And let me decode the last part of Mike’s post to expose the innerworkings of a possibly deluded cult-zealot/pathological liar/someone acting like a troll:   Mike wants us to look at how to work within wierwille’s idea of a manageable god via brainwashing with the twisted and perverted ideology of PFAL which wierwille stole and through the miracle of incompetency made it “his own”.     ...that's literally - the stuff belonged to other people and wierwille claimed it was his.

Edited November 11, 2022 by T-Bone
revision

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, T-Bone said:

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Uh-oh

[Nathan_Jr]

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

through the miracle of incompetency made it “his own”. 

Nice.

 

[Mike]

On 9/20/2022 at 1:09 PM, WordWolf said:

Ok, let's see.  It's important enough that Mike suddenly won't shut up about it, yet Mike insisted on burying the requests to read it in one thread not about it, and the original post was buried in a DIFFERENT thread not about it.  

Somehow, I think Mike doesn't want us discussing it OPENLY.

There you go again, trying to plant conspiracy theories in my head where there are none.

If I did not want it discussed publicly, WHY would I give people the link to it a few days ago?  Why would I have brought it up last Sept, eventually prompting you to post the entire transcript?  Why would I have posted the entire transcript here 20 years ago, and maybe TWICE?????

Let me relieve you of some fatigue in your brain’s overtaxed conspiracy theory lobe.

HAD I posted that entire transcript last Sept or last week, the first thing that would happen is Rocky demanding I pay for the privilege, and others wining and complaining that I am taking over GreaseSpot.

If  I start a thread, someone will complain about that. If I don’t start a thread, other conspiracy theories crop up about that.  The historians, if they ever are able to figure out this sight, will get a big belly laugh at you folks are so bowled over by almost every thing I do.  You ought to look at yourselves sometime.  It is like the Keyboard Keystone Kops the way people arise out of relative slumber here to take me on.

If I post a lot, people complain.  If I take a break to go washing windows, people complain.  People are in a complaining and conspiracy theory mode over me all the time. What a WASTE of brain cells.

WordWolf, I am very happy you posted “Light Began to Dawn” twice. It is an important tape transcript to get the details accurate from.

 

[Mike]

Oops.  I posted this in the wrong thread.

 

[chockfull]

20 minutes ago, Mike said:

There you go again, trying to plant conspiracy theories in my head where there are none.

If I did not want it discussed publicly, WHY would I give people the link to it a few days ago?  Why would I have brought it up last Sept, eventually prompting you to post the entire transcript?  Why would I have posted the entire transcript here 20 years ago, and maybe TWICE?????

Let me relieve you of some fatigue in your brain’s overtaxed conspiracy theory lobe.

HAD I posted that entire transcript last Sept or last week, the first thing that would happen is Rocky demanding I pay for the privilege, and others wining and complaining that I am taking over GreaseSpot.

If  I start a thread, someone will complain about that. If I don’t start a thread, other conspiracy theories crop up about that.  The historians, if they ever are able to figure out this sight, will get a big belly laugh at you folks are so bowled over by almost every thing I do.  You ought to look at yourselves sometime.  It is like the Keyboard Keystone Kops the way people arise out of relative slumber here to take me on.

If I post a lot, people complain.  If I take a break to go washing windows, people complain.  People are in a complaining and conspiracy theory mode over me all the time. What a WASTE of brain cells.

WordWolf, I am very happy you posted “Light Began to Dawn” twice. It is an important tape transcript to get the details accurate from.

Mike you aren’t gonna get sympathy from me over your head injuries from running into the same tone deaf wall over and over again.

Plurality giving to a “ministry” whose founder wasn’t qualified to be a deacon is taking that tone deaf and turning it up to ELEVEN.

I would donate to ANY charity over the Way and do consistently.  I feel better about the $20 I have a homeless woman last week than I would giving a red cent to those who hide their books to abuse others, stubbornly refuse to change in the face of overwhelming evidence and opinion and abuse others with their positions to make their own lives easier.

[Rocky]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

Oops.  I posted this in the wrong thread.

 

LOL... there YOU go again.   

[Rocky]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

It is like the Keyboard Keystone Kops the way people arise out of relative slumber here to take me on.

Has it EVER occurred to you to consider HOW or WHY that matters to you at all?

[Rocky]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

If  I start a thread, someone will complain about that. If I don’t start a thread, other conspiracy theories crop up about that.  The historians, if they ever are able to figure out this sight, will get a big belly laugh at you folks are so bowled over by almost every thing I do.  You ought to look at yourselves sometime.  It is like the Keyboard Keystone Kops the way people arise out of relative slumber here to take me on.

Back at you, dude!

If only Marcus Aurelius could have heard the (fictional) advice from his adopted grandfather, Hadrian, that Marguerite Yourcenar writes into her prize-winning book Memoirs of Hadrian. “Our great mistake,” she has Hadrian say, “is to try to exact from each person virtues which he does not possess, and to neglect the cultivation of those which he has.” How much happier Marcus would have been had he been more able to see the good in people, and how much better a leader he could have been had he leaned into their strengths rather than disdained their weaknesses.

Each of us would benefit from that advice as well. We have to focus on what we can learn from other people. We have to focus on what is special and unique about them instead of zeroing in on the ways they are not as good as us. We have to be forgiving and patient, kind and appreciative. We have to engage with what they bring to the table, not lament the things they take from it. Then we have to work to make those people around us better…not write them off as hopeless and broken.

****

When I TRY to look at the good in you and bring it out, you declare that I post garbage about you. That's sad.

[WordWolf]

10 hours ago, Mike said:

There you go again, trying to plant conspiracy theories in my head where there are none.

 

 

If I did not want it discussed publicly, WHY would I give people the link to it a few days ago?  Why would I have brought it up last Sept, eventually prompting you to post the entire transcript?  Why would I have posted the entire transcript here 20 years ago, and maybe TWICE?????

 

 

Let me relieve you of some fatigue in your brain’s overtaxed conspiracy theory lobe.

 

 

HAD I posted that entire transcript last Sept or last week, the first thing that would happen is Rocky demanding I pay for the privilege, and others wining and complaining that I am taking over GreaseSpot.

 

 

If  I start a thread, someone will complain about that. If I don’t start a thread, other conspiracy theories crop up about that.  The historians, if they ever are able to figure out this sight, will get a big belly laugh at you folks are so bowled over by almost every thing I do.  You ought to look at yourselves sometime.  It is like the Keyboard Keystone Kops the way people arise out of relative slumber here to take me on.

 

 

If I post a lot, people complain.  If I take a break to go washing windows, people complain.  People are in a complaining and conspiracy theory mode over me all the time. What a WASTE of brain cells.

 

 

WordWolf, I am very happy you posted “Light Began to Dawn” twice. It is an important tape transcript to get the details accurate from.

 

 

 

 

 

You posted the contents and then buried them. When you brought them up again, you were asked to repost them- or even to link them- and you gave a long response that you didn't have time.  You have time to go on for paragraphs or pages on how you don't have time, but the original subject seems to be too much.  I think you're the only one who doesn't know what that means.  So, I found it- it didn't take long- and posted it as a thread, making it easier to find.   Several months later, it's like you're trying to say reposting it was your idea.

As for why you'd want to refer to it without actually posting it or even linking it,  that you did it is a matter of record, that's what you did.  The question would not be, "Did you do it?" (you're trying to rewrite history again and say you didn't, and perhaps you've rewritten your memory of it successfully), but rather "WHY did you do it?"  I can't guarantee your motives, I can only go by actions and results, and intent follows from there.   With your ability to claim the contents without actually showing what they say, they retain a certain flexibility.  It's the same as when you dislike how the Orange Book and yourself are at loggerheads-  you really don't like it that this can be demonstrated.  So, you make claims, imagine you have a shred of credibility left, and imagine that people might believe what you say are the contents.

So, months after the thread's posted, you're fine giving out the link because the genie is already out of the bottle. So, you pretend that was your idea all along, post the links, and pretend you wanted that to begin with.  

As for how much time it would take, it's supposedly all in your records, and cutting-and-pasting would be a good 3 minutes, tops, regardless of post length.  The famous "I don't have time" is such a transparent excuse by this point that I'd be amazed if it convinced ANYONE when you said it nowadays.    There's talking around Scripture, and talking around pfal, but discussion of the actual content is scarce (that's when the "no time for that" pages start multiplying again.

[chockfull]

15 hours ago, WordWolf said:

You posted the contents and then buried them. When you brought them up again, you were asked to repost them- or even to link them- and you gave a long response that you didn't have time.  You have time to go on for paragraphs or pages on how you don't have time, but the original subject seems to be too much.  I think you're the only one who doesn't know what that means.  So, I found it- it didn't take long- and posted it as a thread, making it easier to find.   Several months later, it's like you're trying to say reposting it was your idea.

As for why you'd want to refer to it without actually posting it or even linking it,  that you did it is a matter of record, that's what you did.  The question would not be, "Did you do it?" (you're trying to rewrite history again and say you didn't, and perhaps you've rewritten your memory of it successfully), but rather "WHY did you do it?"  I can't guarantee your motives, I can only go by actions and results, and intent follows from there.   With your ability to claim the contents without actually showing what they say, they retain a certain flexibility.  It's the same as when you dislike how the Orange Book and yourself are at loggerheads-  you really don't like it that this can be demonstrated.  So, you make claims, imagine you have a shred of credibility left, and imagine that people might believe what you say are the contents.

So, months after the thread's posted, you're fine giving out the link because the genie is already out of the bottle. So, you pretend that was your idea all along, post the links, and pretend you wanted that to begin with.  

As for how much time it would take, it's supposedly all in your records, and cutting-and-pasting would be a good 3 minutes, tops, regardless of post length.  The famous "I don't have time" is such a transparent excuse by this point that I'd be amazed if it convinced ANYONE when you said it nowadays.    There's talking around Scripture, and talking around pfal, but discussion of the actual content is scarce (that's when the "no time for that" pages start multiplying again.

That’s why it is idolatry - it is based on an image and a feeling.

Whenever the image gets broken down to component parts which exposes the illogic the response is to flee.  This may even be subconscious.

[waysider]

Years ago, there was a particular TV preacher who had an early Sunday morning, 1/2 hour show. He would start with current events, move on to a couple of songs, reflect on a personal anecdote and, finally, toward the end of the show, he would briefly quote a scripture. Then, he would finish the show by shouting, "JOY! I wish I had more time!".

I'm just sayin'.

[OldSkool]

18 hours ago, WordWolf said:

You posted the contents and then buried them.

He does that sort of thing frequently. Ive noticed if anyone posts something that goes against what mike thinks wierwille said he does his best to try and flash past that particular posts with a flurry of other content besides the content he dislikes. So its not just WW who has noticed this behaviour. Ive started reposting what he wants buried once again so others can read along. Its obvious he is wanting to influence grease spot readers that PFAL is really of God and we are all wrong about wierwille.