Who contrives limits? Who constructs limits? Who conceives of limits? Who perceives limits? Who beleeeves limits?
Man or God?
If the limit thing is of my construction, then it should be JUNKED.
But if the scriptures talk of said limitations, then it deserves some consideration.
I will be posting more scriptures, but you have a few already. We can see the limitation put on angels from that chapter in Daniel. We see some kind of limitation in the Book of Job when God could only forbid the devil from killing Job. I will be posting more.
...All we have are scriptures to guide us in these matters. They say nothing about "two doors" or God limiting himself to limit the devil. We should not second guess the situation; just learn from it.
Again, it is the IDEA of limitation, not the exact word "limitation" that I am looking for.
The words (limit, budget, door) are all my vocabulary words to express the idea. The same idea could be in the scriptures with different wording.
Wasn't it vp who taught that believers can operate all 9 all the time? If this was true then doesn't it contradict what you are sharing now about "the tight budget that God limits Himself to?" How do you reconcile the two?
Yes, with limits. What I recollect is that it's "available" for believers to operate them, contingent on God's will at the time. Remember when VPW said "I reached up in daddy's cookie jar"? Sometimes a cookie was there, sometimes not. Another way to put it is, we have the inherent power, and God works as you act. But what if God doesn't want or need to do it at the time? Then it won't work. There's obviously other things at play that we might not know about, which is what I think Mike wants to explore in this thread.
Again, it is the IDEA of limitation, not the exact word "limitation" that I am looking for.
Justas I wasspeaking of the IDEA of multi-tasking and not the exact words of "multi-tasking", (as if bibical people understood the concept of multi-tasking) the IDEA of an allknowingGod not knowing something and not the exact words "I am all knowing but I don't know howtohandlethis."
My point being there's obviously more to the accountthanwhat yournarrowviewoffers
55 minutes ago, Mike said:
The words (limit, budget, door) are all my vocabulary words to express the idea. The same idea could be in the scriptures with different wording.
Just as my statements are my vocab words to express those ideas and could be in the scriptures with different wording.
But, I have to backtrack for a bit to situation similar to the Corps, first.
I posted several times here how VPW & Co. were very busy working away for about a year at PFAL'77 being a replacement for the '68 class. Then at lunch, 4 days before PFAL'77 we were surprised to hear VPW pull the plug, in that he confessed to us staff at lunch that he and the top leadership never got the "go ahead" from God on the project. He said they were off the Word.
My current model on VPW is that he had a private project going with PFAL'77 being a replacement for the '68 class. He was wrong in that he was spending God's money (lots of it) on his own private project.Then God FINALLY got through to VPW that day, 4 days before PFAL'77 was to start, that He was ....ed!
Ok, that is something that VPW admitted happened.
That TVT report that I cited about Oral Roberts was similar to this, where Oral was enticed to veer away from healings to get denominations to contribute to his school, his private project.
Another similar situation was Paul’s private project to travel to Jerusalem, which was a major undertaking in those days. God very active in warning Paul against it, because He knew it would limit Paul.God was unable to get through to Paul. He tried His best. Remember, God and Paul are working behind enemy lines, in the devil’s world. That in itself is a limitation on God.
*/*/*
So, VPW admitted that he and the machinery of the ministry were on the wrong track, and for a long time, and spending lots of money and man-hours on without God’s approval and guidance on PFAL’77.I thing that exact same thing happened on a grander scale with the Corps.
PAUSE – I know there was probably a large MAJORITY of good people who got a lot of good things from the Corps training, and then served God well in their Corps service.I am not talking about that majority hump in the Bell Curve. But there was a minority of Corps, found in greater concentrations as you moved up the chain of command, that were drifting in all sorts of directions AWAY from what we were taught and were supposed to go.
UNPAUSE - I think that exact same thing happened on a grander scale a few years later with the Corps. VPW and the machinery of the ministry drifted onto on the wrong track(s), and for a long time, and spending lots of money and man-hours on without God’s approval and guidance when it came to the Corps being trained to take over the ministry leadership as the 1980s progressed.
1 hour ago, waysider said:
Summary:
VP good.
Way Corps bad.
So, I would correct your diagnosis to read:
VPW ~~~ good new-man nature, bad old-man nature
Corps members ~~~ good new-man natures, bad old-man natures
Corps Training and Structure ~~~ lots of good points mixed with a few very bad points
Activities of leadership ~~~ drifting from good to very bad at times
I posted several times here how VPW & Co. were very busy working away for about a year at PFAL'77 being a replacement for the '68 class. Then at lunch, 4 days before PFAL'77 we were surprised to hear VPW pull the plug, in that he confessed to us staff at lunch that he and the top leadership never got the "go ahead" from God o
And now for the facts.
Saint Vic was all gun-holier than thou about PLAF 77 until someone in the audience called out the associative property quicker than he could state it. At that point, Saint Vic realized people knew PLAF better than he did and decided to scrap the class.
He probably used the God told me excuse to cover for his own error in presenting class everyone already knew and protect his ego.
I think of Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1 often and wonder how it can become a reality in our lives.
16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
The best I understand it, as we help others to get the eyes of THEIR understanding enlightened to the verses you quoted, then the more we will understand them.
We have been give LOTS of details on those scriptures, and teaching them by example puts in the maximum position to hear His guidance. He certainly wants us to help others get a LITTLE understanding here, and we certainly can do that. This is the ultimate of what we give out we get back in abundance.
It was always in witnessing and teaching the Word that I grew the most. The action is in helping others with this. That is what 7 of the 9 manifestations are for: ministering to others.
Cain killed Able, what did God do to open the door?
What did God do to allow Noah's flood to occur?
What did God do to give the devil the chance to create Sodom and
Gomorrah?
Paul would walk and his shadow would heal people, how did the devil use this door opening?
Please save those questions for after I lay out the scriptures I have. I think there is some overlap, but I have not committed them to memory very well. Some of them are very old notes I haven't seen or thought about in 30 or 40 years. I am slowly processing them all for posting. It may take a day or two.
If I make the case that this budget/door thing is a useful idea, then you can help me apply it to the scriptures you are bringing up.
Please remember, that there is no guarantee that every situation in scripture will have clues that help us on this topic of the budget/door. But if the scriptures I have found will help solidify the idea, then there may be MANY more scriptures where the clues ARE there to be found.
Please, in addition to opposing this idea, try putting the idea on, to see how it fits. Hold it in mind and try to apply it to odd places in the scriptures. It may help explain some of them.
And at that time then God's full power will be manifest? (following along with your concept) ?
Yes. It is only for a short time that the devil has a wide open door; then it's from door to doom, as Christ returns to Earth with us. That is when the full power of God happens on Earth: "...thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven."
Please remember, that there is no guarantee that every situation in scripture will have clues that help us on this topic of the budget/door. But if the scriptures I have found will help solidify the idea, then there may be MANY more scriptures where the clues ARE there to be found.
So you're disobeying one of the rules of PLAF: If 20 scriptures say something and one contradicts it, you don't throw out the 20 in favor of the one, you look at the one and find out what's wrong with it.
This may surprise you, but there are plenty of accounts were one side acts and there's no reaction from the other side. There's also accounts where the devil acts without any action from God.
Saint Vic was all gun-holier than thou about PLAF 77 until someone in the audience called out the associative property quicker than he could state it. At that point, Saint Vic realized people knew PLAF better than he did and decided to scrap the class.
He probably used the God told me excuse to cover for his own error in presenting class everyone already knew and protect his ego.
Good of you to spread a TVT.
No, NOT at that point. It was much earlier.
I was an eye witness, along with more than a hundred other staffers.
The scrapping of PFAL'77 being a replacement class happened in the BRC basement at lunchtime approximately 4 days before PFAL'77 started. I was there.
Please, in addition to opposing this idea, try putting the idea on, to see how it fits. Hold it in mind and try to apply it to odd places in the scriptures. It may help explain some of them
Says the guy who refuses to budge an inch on his postulates.
If you have zero flexibility on what I offer, why should I have flexibility on what you offer?
Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?
I saw lots of signs and wonders in the early 1970s, some that benefitted me and some benefitting others, and maybe even a miracle or two.This was on Long Island, just across a bridge from the Groovy Christians at Rye, NY.The Word was hot then, and BOTH Jesus Christ and the class were talked up bigtime.It was a genuine work of God.The archives here have a couple of posts from Ralph D verifying this, as he too was in the middle of it all. This is undeniable.
But it is equally undeniable that NOT as many mighty signs, miracles, and wonders were being seen as the Seventies ended. Not coincidentally, by 1982 the Corps had taken over and was supervising most field work. In my most recent theory on this, the over-supervising and stifling influence of the Corps is characterizes lots of how TWI-1 phased out and TWI-2 phased in.
I think we have all agreed here, that since 1986, the higher up in leadership that you look, the less likelihood there is of seeing any signs, miracles, and wonders coming from their hands.
Most of what power I saw in the Seventies was associated with regular believers witnessing, running classes, under-shepherding new people, and splitting twigs.That activity was hotter than hot on Long Island then, but when I moved to HQ in 1976 the local movement of the Word in New Knoxville was down to absolute zero. That was one of the reasons I left there two years later. I can hardly imagine the insularity and passage of 4 decades has only made that worse for the long-term residents at HQ.
Because I had specialized in witnessing back on Long Island, I was able to sign up two locals in the New Knoxville area, and it was considered phenomenal by some on staff.I had to send my sign-ups to Sidney, though, for fellowship and under-shepherding. Things were pretty dead in town, spiritually.
But there is much more to the scarcity of miracles that I want to talk about here, than the ineptness of TWI. I sense the scarcity of miracles is universal, almost regardless of people, and as if it were a law of some sort, with few exceptions.
Back in the day, on Long Island we had a wonderful new brother added to our Branch one day, pseudo-named George.He was a super nice guy, always fun and laughing, and a real joy to be around.He was meek and joined in on witnessing very well.He was not all messed up and straining to be positive and renew his mind; he HAD it!He seemed to be pretty well adjusted BEFORE taking the class, and just jumped in right away as a renewed mind believer.I wish I had stayed there longer to get to know him better, and regret that I’ve been unable to find him.
George had one good arm and his other was completely withered from birth.A tiny outline of a baby’s hand with some fingers could be seen protruding a tiny bit from his shoulder. He could hide it easily with a shirt, but in the Summertime we could often plainly see it. He didn’t try to hide it, and seemed to be quite skilled at living without the arm. He was active and got around well; an unforgettable guy.
When we would run a PFAL class, just EVERYONE held their breath during the part about the man with the withered hand. We all wanted to see George miraculously healed.I think he went WoW or maybe in the Corps, but I’m not sure.
But I do know for sure, that if George had ever gotten that new arm build by a miracle, I would CERTAINLY have heard about it from all my old Long Island friends. Word about George would have traveled fast, fast, fast.I think there are still a dozen of us still alive and friends on Facebook.
We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen.
I have thought long and hard about this scarcity of miracles.
One hunch is that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet.
But that is ONLY PART of my thinking.
The scarcity of miracles is universal, and not just in the failed TWI.
So, the question then becomes, why haven’t ANY groups of Christians in modern times gotten the same results that we see in Acts of the Apostles?
But then, looking closer at Acts, we can see the abundance of miracles there was in spurts (like Long Island?), and that most of the time, they too experienced the same scarcity of miracles.We do see Paul sprung from jail once by a miraculous earthquake, and then some fast acting on revelation by Paul.But then how many times later was Paul NOT sprung from jail?And then, how many of the Apostles eventually died? All of them died. Miracles were rare for them too.
I am thinking out loud here.Still working on all this.
At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders.
I have also noticed that many here are very much against the idea of God having any limitations. This thread is an opportunity for possibly thinking that through in more detail.
God uses angels to do a lot of things. There is an interesting account in the OT about this in the Book of Daniel, where Daniel was praying for some help with something, and nothing happens for a long time, like weeks. Suddenly one day an angel shows up, and says something like “I’m here to help. Sorry I’m so late. I was detained for weeks struggling with some ‘big guy’ out there.”
That was my Super Abbreviated Version; below is the NIV:
Daniel Chapter 10
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks.I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.
On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris,I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist.His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves.So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless.Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.
A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees.He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.
Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless.Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak.How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”
Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength.“Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.”
When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”
So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come;but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.”
Now try not to be distracted by the great example of the Great Principle that is laid out in the open here in Daniel 10, and PLEASE focus on the red fonts that show how God was limited. God’s angels were obviously limited in that chapter, and they struggled to prevail. It looks like they were on a budget that just barely worked.
From this and many other scriptures (forthcoming), I get the impression that, though God has infinite power, He has limited His use of His power for various reasons, and must work within His own constructed framework.
I get the impression He limits Himself to some kind of “Intervention Budget” SO THAT He can limit the devil to the same budget.
WHY it works this way I do not know.
It just seems to be implied to be the case in the scriptures.I think this maybe is what VPW was often referring to when he said the God did things “legally” and not just willy-nilly.I will be soon bringing out more scriptures that gave me this hunch many years ago.
Never once have I heard VPW or anyone else in the ministry, or out of the ministry, bring up an idea like this.I have no idea where I got it from, but it just looks that way when I read the Bible. I think the Book of Job and it’s courtroom scenes may have first planted this idea. Also in that courtroom we see the devil being limited to not killing Job. Also, the many times God’s people in the Bible just barely got delivered at the last minute suggested a budget to me.
The spiritual battles in the OT are often ones of God just barely winning, but often with an abundance of cleverness and foresight. God knew beforehand how big to set His budget so that He could rescue the broken world from the devil. God’s budget is tight; tight enough to make it impossible for the adversary to rule HIS OWN WORLD very efficiently.Not knowing the future, the adversary wastes his budget on failed attempts to thwart God.
Now another feature of this theory or hunch of mine is that the budget not only applies to the “amount” of an intervention from the spiritual to the physical, it ALSO implies a TIME BUDGET as well.
Again, from a bunch of scriptures (forthcoming) I have seen situations in the Scriptures that I describe as “Double Doors.”That mean when God opens the door between the spiritual and physical for an intervention, He must open a corresponding door to the adversary as well.Otherwise the doors are shut tight, like the way we see an angel in Genesis that blocks and guards Eden and the Tree of Live. The doors open at just the right time, and then soon shut.
I first noted this “Double Door” phenomenon in the Road to Damascus incident when Paul was converted. God opened the door for Paul to see Jesus, but the devil pounces in through that same set of doors to try and kill Paul.Like the limitations put on him in the Book of Job, the devil is only successful in blinding Paul. This blinding is against God’s will, but the door was then shut, so God directed Paul and Ananias to get together for healing later.
I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way.I am sure many tangential topics will be included.
6 hours ago, Mike said:
My point with the story about George was that HUGE undeniable miracles (like a new arm where there was never one before) were so rare that CERTAINLY if even ONE had occurred in TWI we'd all have heard about it.
My point was that big miracles were very rare for us, and then I extended it to all ministries, and even to the ministries of the apostles. The scarcity is universal. Why? I think the closed doors are to keep the devils lying signs, miracles, and wonders very scarce also.
There will come a time, after we are gone, when the door will be wide open for the devil's power, and that way he will seduce the whole world.
3 hours ago, Mike said:
I think I understand one of your points – to a degree anyway – what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes.
I totally agree. The only way we can have any surety here is to the extent that we see it in the scriptures.Over the years I kept on THINKING that I was seeing this in the scriptures. I will soon be processing my collection for posting. I have them all in one folder already, so it won’t take too long.
But to say that He “MUST work within His own constructed framework” is to dictate what an all-powerful being can and cannot do.
Here, I think we already have pretty clear scriptures that confirm this part, like God cannot lie, and the scripture cannot be broken.
*We know very little about angels.Again we are totally limited to what the scriptures tell us about them, and it seems they tell us far less about angels than what they tell us about God, and Jesus, and us. We can barely understand free will of our own; far less angels’ free will.
As far as our free will goes, we have precious little said in the scripture about that. I hear rumors Calvin launched a whole religion that has no free will in their doctrine.The Bible does seem to favor determinism at times, a little.
But most of all I think the Bible assumes or implies SOME kind of choice is available to us, without going into the Biology at all.We need to have choice to be individuals.
As for your last question of God fixing problems quickly, versus dragging it all out this way, possibly with a budget and double doors, there is an answer to that.It is in Romans, but the best translation I’ve seen that makes this clear is the New English Translation.
Romans 5N.E.T.
But death held sway from Adam to Moses,
even over those who had not sinned as Adam did,
by disobeying a direct command,
and Adam foreshadows The Man who was to come.
But God’s act of grace
is out of all proportion
to Adam’s wrongdoing.
For if the wrongdoing of that one man
brought death upon so many,
its effect is vastly exceeded
by the grace of God
and the gift that came to so many
by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ.
And again:
the gift of God
is not to be compared in its effect
with that one man’s sin;
for the judicial action,
following upon the one offence,
issued in a verdict of condemnation,
but the act of grace,
following upon so many misdeeds,
issued in a verdict of acquittal.
For, if by the wrongdoing of that one man,
death established its reign
through a single sinner,
much more shall those who receive
God’s grace in far greater measure,
and His gift of righteousness,
live and reign through the one man, Jesus Christ.
What I take away from that is that I trust God that IN THE END it will have been worth all the crap and delays. That passage in Romans 5 is a PROMISE that we will not be disappointed when we get there. It will be the big Ah Ha! moment.The delays will look puny, and all the tears will be wiped away.I think it is connected with Jesus leaving to prepare a place for us, and it takes time.Likewise, in the OT, it took time for angels to get jobs done.Why? We can ask that then, but now we clearly see this happens.
The problem might be you are looking at Scripture, and expecting thatis the model for the modern church. Maybe you’re aware of the cessationism versus continuationism the theological dispute . personally I lean toward cessationism – not only for the passages that indicate certain spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age – the verses terming them as signs of an apostle – i.e. since they authenticated their special office. I believe history will also bear me out on the obvious scarcity. I will acknowledge the Holy Spirit is the one who distributes spiritual gifts as I Cor. 12 shows – so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do.
The utterance manifestations can easily be faked - as wierwille admitted inThe Way: Living in Love. And if we’re going on anecdotal evidence – I will attest to the lack of the power and revelation manifestations wherever I served in TWI. You have zilch credibility in my book, so I dismiss any of your claims. And please note I specified the power and revelation manifestations that wierwille claimed followers can ‘operate’. God doesn’t need wierwille’s hyped up Advanced Class of nonsense to accomplish miracles – and He certainly isn’t limited by someone’s lack of knowledge or ‘weak’ believing.
Your recurring thought on the lack of miraculous in your posts also supports the idea of cessationism.
We just saw the movie Jesus Revolution (2023) the true story of a national spiritual awakening in the early 1970's and its origins within a community of teenage hippies in Southern California. Even though there were some ‘cheesy Hallmark moments’ two things stuck out to me in light of your thread: the film emphasized the inner transformation and didn’t get into theatrics – internal phenomena if you will – of people connecting with Jesus Christ.
In my opinion comparing the Jesus Movement with wierwille’s ministry – they are a million miles apart. The Jesus Movement was a genuine work of God. wierwille’s ministry was as phony as a three-dollar bill – he even hijacked part of the Jesus Movement…there’s been a few threads about that:
So you're telling me Saint Vic pulled a bait and switch.
He claimed PLAF would be the new class. He had all those people pay how much more and travel how far to be a part of it. Then at the last minute he uses the phoney excuse that God told him.
Did he reimburse the people that went through the trouble of attending?
So he'll listen to God on that, but he won't listen to God when God tell Saint Vic keep it in your pants.
The best I understand it, as we help others to get the eyes of THEIR understanding enlightened to the verses you quoted, then the more we will understand them.
We have been give LOTS of details on those scriptures, and teaching them by example puts in the maximum position to hear His guidance. He certainly wants us to help others get a LITTLE understanding here, and we certainly can do that. This is the ultimate of what we give out we get back in abundance.
It was always in witnessing and teaching the Word that I grew the most. The action is in helping others with this. That is what 7 of the 9 manifestations are for: ministering to others.
The reason I posted these verses is because of how they lead up to verses 19-23. Verse 19 talks of the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead… I believe these verses are referring to God’s miraculous power to us-ward who believe. Do these verses hold at least one of the keys as to why there might be a scarcity of miracles as opposed to God having a budget and there being double doors? I don’t know – I’m only asking the question to which I'd really like to know the answer.
(It does help to read all the verses that come before verse 16. They speak of at least 10 things God has already done for us as believers in Christ.)
The problem might be you are looking at Scripture, and expecting thatis the model for the modern church. Maybe you’re aware of the cessationism versus continuationism the theological dispute . personally I lean toward cessationism – not only for the passages that indicate certain spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age – the verses terming them as signs of an apostle – i.e. since they authenticated their special office. I believe history will also bear me out on the obvious scarcity. I will acknowledge the Holy Spirit is the one who distributes spiritual gifts as I Cor. 12 shows – so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do.
T-Bone, you wrote above, "so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do."
The fact that Paul's prayer is part of the scripture in Ephesians 1 seems to tell me that this stuff can happen again. What Paul prays for the church later in chapter 3 would certainly apply to us today.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
I think the idea Mike had for this thread - the scarcity of miracles - is worth pondering.
Yes, with limits. What I recollect is that it's "available" for believers to operate them, contingent on God's will at the time. Remember when VPW said "I reached up in daddy's cookie jar"? Sometimes a cookie was there, sometimes not. Another way to put it is, we have the inherent power, and God works as you act. But what if God doesn't want or need to do it at the time? Then it won't work. There's obviously other things at play that we might not know about, which is what I think Mike wants to explore in this thread.
Yes, but that's not what the "slogan" says. If you have to add conditions in order for "all 9 all the time" to be true, then the slogan is untrue and shouldn't be used (imo).
There is SOOOOOOOO much malarkey in Mike's comments on this thread.
If he had anything genuine to teach or write, it seems obvious he would have actually developed his thoughts and research before presenting it... instead of telling us he'll get back to us with the scriptures which back up his (thesis?) ideas?
I'm not seeing how any one commenting on his half-baked notions will help him or you or anyone else.
What's the meaning of the phrase 'Go off at half cock'?
Speak or act prematurely.
Flintlock firearms have a 'cock' or striker mechanism, which is held in a raised, sprung position ready to discharge and make a spark to 'fire' the gun. These can be set at half-cock, when the gun is in a safe state, or at full-cock, when it is ready to be fired. A gun would only 'go off at half-cock' by mistake.
The term half-cock is as old as flintlock guns and appears in print from the mid 18th century; for example, in John Desaguliers' A course of experimental philosophy 1734–44:
"The gun being at Half-Cock, the Spring acts upon the Tumbler with more Advantage."
The earliest known citation of the phrase 'going off at half-cock' comes from London and Its Environs Described, 1761:
"Some arms taken at Bath in the year 1715, distinguished from all others in the Tower, by having what is called dog locks; that is, a kind of lock with a catch to prevent their going off at half-cock."
We now commonly use 'go off at half-cock' or, in America, 'go off half-cocked', to mean 'speak or act impulsively and without proper preparation'. This clearly alludes to the sudden discharge of a firearm. Despite that, the first figurative use of the phrase had a completely different meaning. When the 'half-cocked' imagery was first appropriated it was to mean tipsy, or half-drunk.
####
So, Mike, what's your favored potent potable these days?
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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Mike
If the limit thing is of my construction, then it should be JUNKED.
But if the scriptures talk of said limitations, then it deserves some consideration.
I will be posting more scriptures, but you have a few already. We can see the limitation put on angels from that chapter in Daniel. We see some kind of limitation in the Book of Job when God could only forbid the devil from killing Job. I will be posting more.
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Mike
Again, it is the IDEA of limitation, not the exact word "limitation" that I am looking for.
The words (limit, budget, door) are all my vocabulary words to express the idea. The same idea could be in the scriptures with different wording.
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oldiesman
And at that time then God's full power will be manifest? (following along with your concept) ?
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oldiesman
Yes, with limits. What I recollect is that it's "available" for believers to operate them, contingent on God's will at the time. Remember when VPW said "I reached up in daddy's cookie jar"? Sometimes a cookie was there, sometimes not. Another way to put it is, we have the inherent power, and God works as you act. But what if God doesn't want or need to do it at the time? Then it won't work. There's obviously other things at play that we might not know about, which is what I think Mike wants to explore in this thread.
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So_crates
Just as I was speaking of the IDEA of multi-tasking and not the exact words of "multi-tasking", (as if bibical people understood the concept of multi-tasking) the IDEA of an all knowing God not knowing something and not the exact words "I am all knowing but I don't know how to handle this."
My point being there's obviously more to the account than what your narrow view offers
Just as my statements are my vocab words to express those ideas and could be in the scriptures with different wording.
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Nathan_Jr
Theodicy.
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Mike
No.
It is more detailed than that.
But, I have to backtrack for a bit to situation similar to the Corps, first.
I posted several times here how VPW & Co. were very busy working away for about a year at PFAL'77 being a replacement for the '68 class. Then at lunch, 4 days before PFAL'77 we were surprised to hear VPW pull the plug, in that he confessed to us staff at lunch that he and the top leadership never got the "go ahead" from God on the project. He said they were off the Word.
A far more detailed account can be seen here:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24553-the-wierwille-legacy-who-will-write-the-book/page/2/#comment-586383
My current model on VPW is that he had a private project going with PFAL'77 being a replacement for the '68 class. He was wrong in that he was spending God's money (lots of it) on his own private project. Then God FINALLY got through to VPW that day, 4 days before PFAL'77 was to start, that He was ....ed!
Ok, that is something that VPW admitted happened.
That TVT report that I cited about Oral Roberts was similar to this, where Oral was enticed to veer away from healings to get denominations to contribute to his school, his private project.
Another similar situation was Paul’s private project to travel to Jerusalem, which was a major undertaking in those days. God very active in warning Paul against it, because He knew it would limit Paul. God was unable to get through to Paul. He tried His best. Remember, God and Paul are working behind enemy lines, in the devil’s world. That in itself is a limitation on God.
*/*/*
So, VPW admitted that he and the machinery of the ministry were on the wrong track, and for a long time, and spending lots of money and man-hours on without God’s approval and guidance on PFAL’77. I thing that exact same thing happened on a grander scale with the Corps.
PAUSE – I know there was probably a large MAJORITY of good people who got a lot of good things from the Corps training, and then served God well in their Corps service. I am not talking about that majority hump in the Bell Curve. But there was a minority of Corps, found in greater concentrations as you moved up the chain of command, that were drifting in all sorts of directions AWAY from what we were taught and were supposed to go.
UNPAUSE - I think that exact same thing happened on a grander scale a few years later with the Corps. VPW and the machinery of the ministry drifted onto on the wrong track(s), and for a long time, and spending lots of money and man-hours on without God’s approval and guidance when it came to the Corps being trained to take over the ministry leadership as the 1980s progressed.
So, I would correct your diagnosis to read:
VPW ~~~ good new-man nature, bad old-man nature
Corps members ~~~ good new-man natures, bad old-man natures
Corps Training and Structure ~~~ lots of good points mixed with a few very bad points
Activities of leadership ~~~ drifting from good to very bad at times
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So_crates
And now for the facts.
Saint Vic was all gun-holier than thou about PLAF 77 until someone in the audience called out the associative property quicker than he could state it. At that point, Saint Vic realized people knew PLAF better than he did and decided to scrap the class.
He probably used the God told me excuse to cover for his own error in presenting class everyone already knew and protect his ego.
Good of you to spread a TVT.
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Mike
The best I understand it, as we help others to get the eyes of THEIR understanding enlightened to the verses you quoted, then the more we will understand them.
We have been give LOTS of details on those scriptures, and teaching them by example puts in the maximum position to hear His guidance. He certainly wants us to help others get a LITTLE understanding here, and we certainly can do that. This is the ultimate of what we give out we get back in abundance.
It was always in witnessing and teaching the Word that I grew the most. The action is in helping others with this. That is what 7 of the 9 manifestations are for: ministering to others.
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Mike
Please save those questions for after I lay out the scriptures I have. I think there is some overlap, but I have not committed them to memory very well. Some of them are very old notes I haven't seen or thought about in 30 or 40 years. I am slowly processing them all for posting. It may take a day or two.
If I make the case that this budget/door thing is a useful idea, then you can help me apply it to the scriptures you are bringing up.
Please remember, that there is no guarantee that every situation in scripture will have clues that help us on this topic of the budget/door. But if the scriptures I have found will help solidify the idea, then there may be MANY more scriptures where the clues ARE there to be found.
Please, in addition to opposing this idea, try putting the idea on, to see how it fits. Hold it in mind and try to apply it to odd places in the scriptures. It may help explain some of them.
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Mike
Yes. It is only for a short time that the devil has a wide open door; then it's from door to doom, as Christ returns to Earth with us. That is when the full power of God happens on Earth: "...thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven."
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Nathan_Jr
So, PFAL '77 was not in God's budget.
Got it.
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So_crates
So you're disobeying one of the rules of PLAF: If 20 scriptures say something and one contradicts it, you don't throw out the 20 in favor of the one, you look at the one and find out what's wrong with it.
This may surprise you, but there are plenty of accounts were one side acts and there's no reaction from the other side. There's also accounts where the devil acts without any action from God.
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Mike
No, NOT at that point. It was much earlier.
I was an eye witness, along with more than a hundred other staffers.
The scrapping of PFAL'77 being a replacement class happened in the BRC basement at lunchtime approximately 4 days before PFAL'77 started. I was there.
Read my detailed account here:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24553-the-wierwille-legacy-who-will-write-the-book/page/2/#comment-586383
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Nathan_Jr
God's money? What kind of bit-chass god is this?
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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So_crates
Says the guy who refuses to budge an inch on his postulates.
If you have zero flexibility on what I offer, why should I have flexibility on what you offer?
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T-Bone
The problem might be you are looking at Scripture, and expecting that is the model for the modern church. Maybe you’re aware of the cessationism versus continuationism the theological dispute . personally I lean toward cessationism – not only for the passages that indicate certain spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age – the verses terming them as signs of an apostle – i.e. since they authenticated their special office. I believe history will also bear me out on the obvious scarcity. I will acknowledge the Holy Spirit is the one who distributes spiritual gifts as I Cor. 12 shows – so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do.
The utterance manifestations can easily be faked - as wierwille admitted in The Way: Living in Love. And if we’re going on anecdotal evidence – I will attest to the lack of the power and revelation manifestations wherever I served in TWI. You have zilch credibility in my book, so I dismiss any of your claims. And please note I specified the power and revelation manifestations that wierwille claimed followers can ‘operate’. God doesn’t need wierwille’s hyped up Advanced Class of nonsense to accomplish miracles – and He certainly isn’t limited by someone’s lack of knowledge or ‘weak’ believing.
Your recurring thought on the lack of miraculous in your posts also supports the idea of cessationism.
We just saw the movie Jesus Revolution (2023) the true story of a national spiritual awakening in the early 1970's and its origins within a community of teenage hippies in Southern California. Even though there were some ‘cheesy Hallmark moments’ two things stuck out to me in light of your thread: the film emphasized the inner transformation and didn’t get into theatrics – internal phenomena if you will – of people connecting with Jesus Christ.
In my opinion comparing the Jesus Movement with wierwille’s ministry – they are a million miles apart. The Jesus Movement was a genuine work of God. wierwille’s ministry was as phony as a three-dollar bill – he even hijacked part of the Jesus Movement…there’s been a few threads about that:
Jim Doop the Way West and VPW
brief timeline of wierwille’s career
about Doop and Heefner
Jimmy Doop's post Sept. 8 2005 about The Way West and wierwille wanting to control the money
That’s all for now, folks
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So_crates
Oh, that's different.
So you're telling me Saint Vic pulled a bait and switch.
He claimed PLAF would be the new class. He had all those people pay how much more and travel how far to be a part of it. Then at the last minute he uses the phoney excuse that God told him.
Did he reimburse the people that went through the trouble of attending?
So he'll listen to God on that, but he won't listen to God when God tell Saint Vic keep it in your pants.
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Nathan_Jr
He wouldn't listen to god about the studio lights, either. And we all know happened because of victor's spite.
If only victor had beleeeved big enough, he could have....
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Charity
The reason I posted these verses is because of how they lead up to verses 19-23. Verse 19 talks of the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead… I believe these verses are referring to God’s miraculous power to us-ward who believe. Do these verses hold at least one of the keys as to why there might be a scarcity of miracles as opposed to God having a budget and there being double doors? I don’t know – I’m only asking the question to which I'd really like to know the answer.
(It does help to read all the verses that come before verse 16. They speak of at least 10 things God has already done for us as believers in Christ.)
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Charity
T-Bone, you wrote above, "so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do."
The fact that Paul's prayer is part of the scripture in Ephesians 1 seems to tell me that this stuff can happen again. What Paul prays for the church later in chapter 3 would certainly apply to us today.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
I think the idea Mike had for this thread - the scarcity of miracles - is worth pondering.
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Charity
Yes, but that's not what the "slogan" says. If you have to add conditions in order for "all 9 all the time" to be true, then the slogan is untrue and shouldn't be used (imo).
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Rocky
Oh pleeze!
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Rocky
There is SOOOOOOOO much malarkey in Mike's comments on this thread.
If he had anything genuine to teach or write, it seems obvious he would have actually developed his thoughts and research before presenting it... instead of telling us he'll get back to us with the scriptures which back up his (thesis?) ideas?
Does the expression/idiom "going off half-cocked" mean anything to any of you?
I'm not seeing how any one commenting on his half-baked notions will help him or you or anyone else.
What's the meaning of the phrase 'Go off at half cock'?
Speak or act prematurely.
Flintlock firearms have a 'cock' or striker mechanism, which is held in a raised, sprung position ready to discharge and make a spark to 'fire' the gun. These can be set at half-cock, when the gun is in a safe state, or at full-cock, when it is ready to be fired. A gun would only 'go off at half-cock' by mistake.
The term half-cock is as old as flintlock guns and appears in print from the mid 18th century; for example, in John Desaguliers' A course of experimental philosophy 1734–44:
"The gun being at Half-Cock, the Spring acts upon the Tumbler with more Advantage."
The earliest known citation of the phrase 'going off at half-cock' comes from London and Its Environs Described, 1761:
"Some arms taken at Bath in the year 1715, distinguished from all others in the Tower, by having what is called dog locks; that is, a kind of lock with a catch to prevent their going off at half-cock."
We now commonly use 'go off at half-cock' or, in America, 'go off half-cocked', to mean 'speak or act impulsively and without proper preparation'. This clearly alludes to the sudden discharge of a firearm. Despite that, the first figurative use of the phrase had a completely different meaning. When the 'half-cocked' imagery was first appropriated it was to mean tipsy, or half-drunk.
####
So, Mike, what's your favored potent potable these days?
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