The reason I posted these verses is because of how they lead up to verses 19-23. Verse 19 talks of the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead… I believe these verses are referring to God’s miraculous power to us-ward who believe. Do these verses hold at least one of the keys as to why there might be a scarcity of miracles as opposed to God having a budget and there being double doors? I don’t know – I’m only asking the question to which I'd really like to know the answer.
(It does help to read all the verses that come before verse 16. They speak of at least 10 things God has already done for us as believers in Christ.)
I want to emphasize that I do not believe the word "believe" in verse 19 has anything whatsoever to do with the law of believing. The word "believes" means to trust and the one we are to trust is God.
T-Bone had written earlier on this thread, "what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes."
I agree with T-Bone. The manifestation of faith needed to do miracles and healings is dependent upon receiving revelation from God and this revelation is dependent upon God's plans and purposes. This revelation from God could be what Paul is praying for when he says in Eph 1:17 "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:"
What Paul is praying for must be God's will which means God wants us to desire these things which will glorify Him. The fact that it all seems just out of my reach makes me wonder why that is. Sorry, I know I'm getting a bit personal here but it is what it is.
What Paul is praying for must be God's will which means God wants us to desire these things which will glorify Him. The fact that it all seems just out of my reach makes me wonder why that is. Sorry, I know I'm getting a bit personal here but it is what it is.
I wonder why you feel you must apologize. You did nothing wrong. However, to me it is noteworthy you feel safe enough to BE personal here. FWIW, I'm reading, this evening, in the book Emotional Inheritance: a Therapist, Her Patients, and the Legacy of Trauma. There are three parts to the book, as author Galit Atlas describes emotional inheritance from our grandparents, then from our parents, then from the perspective of the patient(s) themselves. Thus far, in each (I'm 75-80 percent through the book) I found myself considering what I might have inherited from each, including the two grandparents I never met.
Clearly, Wierwille represented a parental figure to many of us (and likely, to second generation wayfers who never met him, a grandparent figure). My main point is you have every right to work through your own therapy on GSC however you decide you need it.
That could also be what Mike's doing too... but for him, it's trying to justify an unworthy parent.
I want to emphasize that I do not believe the word "believe" in verse 19 has anything whatsoever to do with the law of believing. The word "believes" means to trust and the one we are to trust is God.
T-Bone had written earlier on this thread, "what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes."
I agree with T-Bone. The manifestation of faith needed to do miracles and healings is dependent upon receiving revelation from God and this revelation is dependent upon God's plans and purposes. This revelation from God could be what Paul is praying for when he says in Eph 1:17 "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:"
What Paul is praying for must be God's will which means God wants us to desire these things which will glorify Him. The fact that it all seems just out of my reach makes me wonder why that is. Sorry, I know I'm getting a bit personal here but it is what it is.
T-Bone, you wrote above, "so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do."
The fact that Paul's prayer is part of the scripture in Ephesians 1 seems to tell me that this stuff can happen again. What Paul prays for the church later in chapter 3 would certainly apply to us today.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
I think the idea Mike had for this thread - the scarcity of miracles - is worth pondering.
9 hours ago, Charity said:
I want to emphasize that I do not believe the word "believe" in verse 19 has anything whatsoever to do with the law of believing. The word "believes" means to trust and the one we are to trust is God.
T-Bone had written earlier on this thread, "what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes."
I agree with T-Bone. The manifestation of faith needed to do miracles and healings is dependent upon receiving revelation from God and this revelation is dependent upon God's plans and purposes. This revelation from God could be what Paul is praying for when he says in Eph 1:17 "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:"
What Paul is praying for must be God's will which means God wants us to desire these things which will glorify Him. The fact that it all seems just out of my reach makes me wonder why that is. Sorry, I know I'm getting a bit personal here but it is what it is.
Great posts, Charity!
As far as your mentioning to ponder the scarcity of miracles – I just wanted to say a few words to clarify what I’ve already said. I think my leaning toward cessationism regarding the utterance manifestations is probably due to the regimented mentality I’ve seen in TWI. In my 12 years’ experience THAT is all I saw…Looking back it seems so artificial…man-made. And that’s my sentiment on this thread.
Complaining of the shortage of miracles is another symptom of the TWI-mindset desires to control the power of God. “you operate the manifestations…signs, miracles and wonders follow believers, class…what power we had if we only knew it.”
Maybe it’s just me – so take everything I say with a grain of salt – for 12 years in TWI there I developed an internal self-defeating dynamic. By leadership and groupthink I was prodded…motivated to crave power…but all the hype of the ministry classes and their dubious content left me frustrated and disappointed. So I was up…then down…up…then down…up…then down.
I mentioned seeing the Jesus Revolution movie earlier. What resonated the most with me was the experience of the inner transformation. That is real. That’s what was lacking for me in TWI - it was mostly superficial for me. I think I’ve gotten a lot more out of the Bible and experienced a lot more internal revolutions…evolutions…whatever since I got out of that harmful and controlling cult…In TWI I was looking for and expecting what TWI dictated.
Who ever said miracles are scarce? They may be scarce in an individual's life or even perspective if one is to rationalize them away. God has noore stopped miracles than he has stopped the sun from rising. Lack of miracles in ones life can also generate from a lack of relational faith in Christ.
Who ever said miracles are scarce? They may be scarce in an individual's life or even perspective if one is to rationalize them away. God has noore stopped miracles than he has stopped the sun from rising. Lack of miracles in ones life can also generate from a lack of relational faith in Christ.
You are so right OldSkool – thank you for pointing this out.The deliverance you experienced in your life is a testament to miracles happening in this day and time.
Mike’s opening post on this thread said, “We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen.” (Previously, he was referring to a miracle that never happened [as far as he knew] to George who had a congenital limb defect in one arm.)
T-Bone wrote in the post before yours, “By leadership and groupthink I was prodded…motivated to crave power…but all the hype of the ministry classes and their dubious content left me frustrated and disappointed.”
(I will reply to Mike’s and T-Bone’s posts to share my thoughts directly with them.)
______________
I've now realized that I had narrowed my definition of a miracle to the ones physicallyseen throughout the Bible, but the following websites define a miracle as such:
“A miracle is an event that is inexplicable by natural or scientific laws and accordingly gets attributed to some supernatural or praeternatural cause.”Wikipedia
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › mira...
"an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature" https://dictionary.cambridge.org › dictionary › miracle
“an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.” https://www.dictionary.com › browse › miracle
______________
What happened to Saul on the road to Damascus – the bright light, his conversation with Jesus and his sudden blindness - was a “spectacular” miracle witnessed by the men who travelled with him.But I think just as miraculous was what Paul said in Galatians 1 concerning this event, “ 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen.”
How did God accomplish this other than the work of the holy spirit in Paul’s life?
Every time someone gets born again, it’s a miracle. Is not every time God works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Phil 2:13) a miracle according to these definitions?
Maybe if we recognize these extraordinary internal events also as miracles which happen every day in believer's lives, then we won’t find such outwardly signs of miracles as recorded in the Bible so far-fetched or outside our reach.
Back in the day, on Long Island we had a wonderful new brother added to our Branch one day, pseudo-named George. He was a super nice guy, always fun and laughing, and a real joy to be around. He was meek and joined in on witnessing very well. He was not all messed up and straining to be positive and renew his mind; he HAD it! He seemed to be pretty well adjusted BEFORE taking the class, and just jumped in right away as a renewed mind believer. I wish I had stayed there longer to get to know him better, and regret that I’ve been unable to find him.
George had one good arm and his other was completely withered from birth.A tiny outline of a baby’s hand with some fingers could be seen protruding a tiny bit from his shoulder. He could hide it easily with a shirt, but in the Summertime we could often plainly see it. He didn’t try to hide it, and seemed to be quite skilled at living without the arm. He was active and got around well; an unforgettable guy.
When we would run a PFAL class, just EVERYONE held their breath during the part about the man with the withered hand. We all wanted to see George miraculously healed.I think he went WoW or maybe in the Corps, but I’m not sure.
But I do know for sure, that if George had ever gotten that new arm build by a miracle, I would CERTAINLY have heard about it from all my old Long Island friends. Word about George would have traveled fast, fast, fast.I think there are still a dozen of us still alive and friends on Facebook.
We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen.
I can see how for EVERYONE, God healing George of the congenital limb defect in his one arm would be a spectacular miracle - I would have as well. But I think that the expectation by everyone that God would do it at that specific part in pfal speaks of a misunderstanding of what a miracle is.
A miracle is according to God's plan and purposes - not according to ours.
Where was George's prayer in all of this? By your own words as outlined in red above, George HAD it! The desire for this miracle was obviously in the minds of everyone else, but was it in George's? Did the believers talk to him as if he needed this miracle to live a more than abundant life?
Another thing is that there was no mention in your story, especially in the green high-lighted part, about giving any glory to God should such a miracle had happened. I'm pretty sure there would be many who would have given the glory to vp and pfal.
I believe there is a lot of unlearning about miracles and healings that need to be done.
Complaining of the shortage of miracles is another symptom of the TWI-mindset desires to control the power of God. “you operate the manifestations…signs, miracles and wonders follow believers, class…what power we had if we only knew it.”
Maybe it’s just me – so take everything I say with a grain of salt – for 12 years in TWI there I developed an internal self-defeating dynamic. By leadership and groupthink I was prodded…motivated to crave power…but all the hype of the ministry classes and their dubious content left me frustrated and disappointed. So I was up…then down…up…then down…up…then down.
I mentioned seeing the Jesus Revolution movie earlier. What resonated the most with me was the experience of the inner transformation. That is real. That’s what was lacking for me in TWI - it was mostly superficial for me. I think I’ve gotten a lot more out of the Bible and experienced a lot more internal revolutions…evolutions…whatever since I got out of that harmful and controlling cult…In TWI I was looking for and expecting what TWI dictated.
I can see that what you said about "TWI-mindset desires to control the power of God" was quite evident in Mike's initial post on this thread. I remember when I got back home after taking the advanced class, I immediately heard of a gentleman in our fellowship who had just passed away. I literally was all set to go and raise him from the dead but my wow coordinator from a few years back was with me and stopped me. I can't remember what her reason for doing so was. But that was my first thought of what to do. I'm not saying now that the ac put that idea in my head because I have since forgotten what was taught in it but it does reflect that mindset of controlling the power of God.
I imagine the frustration and disappointment you described -"So I was up…then down…up…then down…up…then down" might also have been due to the hype and dubious teaching of the law of believing. When it comes to the healing of my 8-year-old grandson with non-verbal autism, I see it now as a walk with God to understand his ways and purposes and trusting his eternal love and goodness that whether in this life or when Christ returns, he will be healed.
I wonder why you feel you must apologize. You did nothing wrong. However, to me it is noteworthy you feel safe enough to BE personal here. FWIW, I'm reading, this evening, in the book Emotional Inheritance: a Therapist, Her Patients, and the Legacy of Trauma. There are three parts to the book, as author Galit Atlas describes emotional inheritance from our grandparents, then from our parents, then from the perspective of the patient(s) themselves. Thus far, in each (I'm 75-80 percent through the book) I found myself considering what I might have inherited from each, including the two grandparents I never met.
Clearly, Wierwille represented a parental figure to many of us (and likely, to second generation wayfers who never met him, a grandparent figure). My main point is you have every right to work through your own therapy on GSC however you decide you need it.
That could also be what Mike's doing too... but for him, it's trying to justify an unworthy parent.
Anyway, my best wished to you Charity.
Thank you Rocky. As to what you said about my feeling safe enough to be personal on GSC, this has been true since the first time I posted on the Absent Christ thread.It was and still is the understanding and empathy shown by many of the posters that has helped me to open my heart to what I dealt with in twi and to all Christ has been doing in me since being on GSC.
What you wrote about emotional inheritance is intriguing.I can see how it most likely contributed to my desire to be part of twi when I was 18.I’m wondering as well how this inheritance is playing out in my life now.I’ve just placed a hold on Atlas’ book at the library – I’m fourth in line.Thanks for mentioning it.
It is noteworthy to me how you continue to learn so much from the books you've shared on GSC as part of your own working through things that are on your heart and mind. You are a man on a journey . (Use the space bar before the yellow dude and you can make him walk .)
You are so right OldSkool – thank you for pointing this out.The deliverance you experienced in your life is a testament to miracles happening in this day and time.
I want to point out a few items in this regard:
The way international basically teaches us that miracles happen by OUR OPERATION of the gift of holy spirit and we have been given all the exousia and a few other Greek words to make it happen. Law of believing comes to mind here as well also, the concept that God endowed us with sonship rights and God has already given us everything and all we have to do is claim it.
I tried EVERY bit of this non-sense to the letter and it all fell flat. I had several hot shot clergy guys involved as well and we were all doing it all together with our like minded believing and all. Name it and claim it. It all fell flat. None of it worked, and the directors know it doesnt work. I tried to get John Rupp to even pray for my son and he held him in hand, looked at him dumbfounded and handed him back to me without so much as a thank you Father coming from his lips. At the top levels of the way international miracles are scarce, within the way international miracles are scarce. I can acknowledge that.
But...Ive learned quite a few things since then....In no order of importance:
- Quit demanding God do anything. God resists the proud, and well, God is God. We may not understand everything but we stay faithful in our trust that God will meet our needs above and beyond anything we could ask or think and we should approach God with a repectful mindset, not a demanding one. We should ASK in faith, not demand in faith. Does that mean if we are frustrated and go in prayer we cant ask for clarification of pour out our hearts? No. Sometimes pouring our our hearts to God unloads a lot of unpleasantness, but like David, we should pour out the good, bad, and the ugly and get back to asking respectfully.
- Understand that God has not already given everything, but in scripture many times things are stated as if they are already past. By his stripes we were healed...but take a look at our corrupted bodies and you will see plenty things wrong. So, obviously, its figurative with the emphasis placed on the absolute nature of an extremely certain future where God will wipe away all tears, sickness, death, etc. So instead of trying to find a cookie jar goto God and ASK for what you need. Ask in faith, nothing wavering.
- We do not make miracles happen of our own volition and we do not do it on demand. That's a huge error. We should ask that God/Christ grant miracles to be done by our hands, not demand it happen and get mad when it doesnt, because demanding anything from God is a great way to make sure it doesn't happen. Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened.
- Our society is schooled to not accept the suprenatural, but to rationalize it all away. God is a God of miracles and he made what is natural as well as the super natural. A faithf based perspective is helpful. Im not talking about rose colored glasses, I tossed my pair when I left TWI. Im not talking about taking a course of anti-biotics and calling it a miracle: thats denial. Im talking about having an open enough mind to recognize a miracle when it happens and let that build one's trust in the Father.
Silly example and it involved nothing on my part: Right at the height and the worst of my alcoholism and depression and such, back in 2017/2018 my wife decided to get us a Pomeranian. Mainly for me because she knew it would help, she works with the mentally ill and knows first hand how animals can help people heal and do better and at the time I was mentall ill. I am VERY attached to this dog, to this day. Well, when she was around 8 months old something completely crazy happened.
At the time I lived on a very busy street that was also a bus route for multiple lines. I was sitting on my porch after work and had the dog outside in the front yard. Well, Bella took off running into the street because she wanted to cross and lick the neighbors to death, except she ran directly under a moving bus. It took and entire house length for the bus to come to a complete stop down the street completely in front of my neighbors house on the right. Bella came running out from under the bus at the exact same spot she ran under it except an entire lots lenght down the street. She was yelping and I thought she was injured. I ran over to her as she was running full speed to me. When I picked her up she had not so much as a scratch and not so much as a speck of dirt on her and her fur wasnt even out of place. So my dog literally ran under a moving bus and didnt even have her fur ruffled. There is no logical, natural explanation for what happened or why she wasnt mangled because she was too big to fit under the bus in the first place without getting mangled by the undercarriage of the bus. With me being suicidal at the time who knows how I would have reacted to my little furry friend getting mangled in front of my eyes by a city bus. It's absolutely impossible what happened. There is no "logical" explanation.
That was a clear cut miracle in my life that was granted without me asking, and it was granted at a time when I was a really sick individual. Yet, God stepped in and somehow saved my dog. Ive tried to explain it away so many times and so many ways. Im not embellishing one iota of the story either. if anything Im still talking it down because its mind blowing.
There have been numerous miracles in my life since then. Maintaining a relationship with God/Christ is how miracles come about, except I let them figure out how to bring them to pass and if it involves me then so be it, if it doesnt then cool...I have one more thing to be thankful for.
The way international basically teaches us that miracles happen by OUR OPERATION of the gift of holy spirit and we have been given all the exousia and a few other Greek words to make it happen. Law of believing comes to mind here as well also, the concept that God endowed us with sonship rights and God has already given us everything and all we have to do is claim it.
I tried EVERY bit of this non-sense to the letter and it all fell flat. I had several hot shot clergy guys involved as well and we were all doing it all together with our like minded believing and all. Name it and claim it. It all fell flat. None of it worked, and the directors know it doesnt work. I tried to get John Rupp to even pray for my son and he held him in hand, looked at him dumbfounded and handed him back to me without so much as a thank you Father coming from his lips. At the top levels of the way international miracles are scarce, within the way international miracles are scarce. I can acknowledge that.
But...Ive learned quite a few things since then....In no order of importance:
- Quit demanding God do anything. God resists the proud, and well, God is God. We may not understand everything but we stay faithful in our trust that God will meet our needs above and beyond anything we could ask or think and we should approach God with a repectful mindset, not a demanding one. We should ASK in faith, not demand in faith. Does that mean if we are frustrated and go in prayer we cant ask for clarification of pour out our hearts? No. Sometimes pouring our our hearts to God unloads a lot of unpleasantness, but like David, we should pour out the good, bad, and the ugly and get back to asking respectfully.
- Understand that God has not already given everything, but in scripture many times things are stated as if they are already past. By his stripes we were healed...but take a look at our corrupted bodies and you will see plenty things wrong. So, obviously, its figurative with the emphasis placed on the absolute nature of an extremely certain future where God will wipe away all tears, sickness, death, etc. So instead of trying to find a cookie jar goto God and ASK for what you need. Ask in faith, nothing wavering.
- We do not make miracles happen of our own volition and we do not do it on demand. That's a huge error. We should ask that God/Christ grant miracles to be done by our hands, not demand it happen and get mad when it doesnt, because demanding anything from God is a great way to make sure it doesn't happen. Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened.
- Our society is schooled to not accept the suprenatural, but to rationalize it all away. God is a God of miracles and he made what is natural as well as the super natural. A faithf based perspective is helpful. Im not talking about rose colored glasses, I tossed my pair when I left TWI. Im not talking about taking a course of anti-biotics and calling it a miracle: thats denial. Im talking about having an open enough mind to recognize a miracle when it happens and let that build one's trust in the Father.
Silly example and it involved nothing on my part: Right at the height and the worst of my alcoholism and depression and such, back in 2017/2018 my wife decided to get us a Pomeranian. Mainly for me because she knew it would help, she works with the mentally ill and knows first hand how animals can help people heal and do better and at the time I was mentall ill. I am VERY attached to this dog, to this day. Well, when she was around 8 months old something completely crazy happened.
At the time I lived on a very busy street that was also a bus route for multiple lines. I was sitting on my porch after work and had the dog outside in the front yard. Well, Bella took off running into the street because she wanted to cross and lick the neighbors to death, except she ran directly under a moving bus. It took and entire house length for the bus to come to a complete stop down the street completely in front of my neighbors house on the left. Bella came running out from under the bus at the exact same spot she ran under it except an entire lots lenght down the street. She was yelping and I though she was injured. I ran over to her as she was running full speed to me. When I picked he up she had not so much as a scratch and not so much as a speck of dirt on her and her fur wasnt even out of place. So my dog literally ran under a moving bus and didnt even have her fur ruffled. There is no logical, natural explanation for what happened or why she wasnt mangled because she was too big to fit under the bus in the first place without getting mangled by the undercarriage of the bus. With me being suicidal at the time who knows how I would have reacted to my little furry friend getting mangled in front of my eyes by a city bus. It's absolutely impossible what happened. There is no "logical" explanation.
That was a clear cut miracle in my life that was granted without me asking, and it was granted at a time when I was a really sick individual. Yet, God stepped in and somehow saved my dog. Ive tried to explain it away so many times and so many ways. Im not embellishing one iota of the story either. if anything Im still talking it down because its mind blowing.
There have been numerous miracles in my life since then. Maintaining a relationship with God/Christ is how miracles come about, except I let them figure out how to bring them to pass and if it involves me then so be it, if it doesnt then cool...I have one more thing to be thankful for.
According to the above website, Twi teaches that "the nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a "basic" principle and this "great" principle, according to them, operates in this manner, "God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out." (Underlining is mine.)
Their "great principle" is not only inaccurate and harmful, it is full of pride as you spoke about in your post. According to James 4:6 and 1 Peter 5:5, the opposite of God resisting the proud is that God gives grace to the humble and being humble is to accept that God's miracles are according to His ways and purposes.
Mary did not pray or believe for a miracle that she would become pregnant with a son who according to Luke 1:32,33 "32 ...shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
But God had a purpose in mind and knew Mary was humble as stated in verse 38 "And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."
God knows our hearts and just as with Mary and OldSkool's dog Bella, some miracles are God acting in power to fulfill His purposes without any human interaction. In other words, there was a purpose for both these miracles and that's why God did them.
Thank you Rocky.As to what you said about my feeling safe enough to be personal on GSC, this has been true since the first time I posted on the Absent Christ thread.It was and still is the understanding and empathy shown by many of the posters that has helped me to open my heart to what I dealt with in twi and to all Christ has been doing in me since being on GSC.
Charity.... thank you for so many insightful posts.
Well, since some are telling their stories of miracles and healing.... I thought that this might be the place to share with you one of mine. I have never told this personal miracle here at GSC.
On my second year of college at the University of Nebraska, it was a Friday afternoon and I had decided to head home to see family and friends. At the time, I had a 1967 Ford Galaxy 500 fastback and a 900 Kawasaki motorcycle. Since it was a relatively nice afternoon, I chose the bike. So, packed with nothing but a backpack... I get out on Interstate 80 and head west.
After about 40 miles, the wind gusts were picking up more intensity until it was a straight headwind. Since I wanted my bike to look sporty, I didn't have a windbreaker shield on this motorcycle. After several miles of enduring these strong headwinds, I thought the "reasonable" thing to do was to get behind an 18-wheeler and let this truck buffer the wind for me. All was going pretty well.... or, so I thought.
Another 8-10 miles following this truck and then this miracle unfolded without so much as a thought. Cruising at 75-miles an hour.... a still, small (audible) voice in my head said, "Stop following this truck. Get around him." Immediately startled somewhat, I quickly prompted the question in my mind... "Was that you, God? If so, then I better obey." So I accelerated and moving swiftly into the left lane (4-lane highway) and was side-by-side with the truck driver seating in his seat. This took all of 6-8 seconds. POW !!! The inside dual tire blew and unraveled in a ker-splat, ker-splat.... RIGHT WHERE I HAD BEEN BEHIND THIS TRUCK.
Nearly stunned by this chain of events, I couldn't help but think how devastating this accident would have been. I didn't have a helmet on and was traveling 75-miles an hour. At best, I would have laid the bike down and been scraping along the pavement tearing skin, pavement burning and probably broken many bones. Or death. All I know is that God intervened and saved me from calamity (or death) at 20-years old.
I was a Christian at the time and sporadically attending a few meetings with Campus Crusade on campus. Lest it should be pointed out.... I was NOT involved in twi when this miracle happened. God forewarned little ole me someone who wasn't instructed in wierwille's revelation and power manifestations. I've always believed since being born again that God looks on the heart.... not head knowledge or boasting of the same. He's a loving and passionate Father who looks out for His children.
Having experienced this myself, I often read the Book of John with great interest.... seeing how Jesus ministered one-on-one to individuals, not necessarily groups. God is good always.
I was a Christian at the time and sporadically attending a few meetings with Campus Crusade on campus. Lest it should be pointed out.... I was NOT involved in twi when this miracle happened. God forewarned little ole me someone who wasn't instructed in wierwille's revelation and power manifestations.
Thanks for sharing that your life, I am very inspired. Considering your above quote its of note that when the Bella incident happened I was a cop out corps grad that God would never help, according to the way's doctrines....same with your scenarios Skyrider. Its of note you hadnt been speaking in tongues like a housa fire all those years leading up to....yeah....exactly. God's miracoulous goodness given to the lowly, bruised and broken.
Thanks for sharing that your life, I am very inspired. Considering your above quote its of note that when the Bella incident happened I was a cop out corps grad that God would never help, according to the way's doctrines....same with your scenarios Skyrider. Its of note you hadnt been speaking in tongues like a housa fire all those years leading up to....yeah....exactly. God's miracoulous goodness given to the lowly, bruised and broken.
You are so right, Oldskool.
I was NOT speaking in tongues like a house of fire. I did NOT have all twi's head knowledge of the 16 keys to walking by the spirit. I was NOT "fully instructed" (cough, cough) to the point of spiritual maturity. In fact, I hadn't even heard of twi let alone taken their pfal class. But I was born again and in the beginning stages of learning about my heavenly Father.
Some of the most incredible God-moments in my life were when I was, seemingly, going about my way and just living life. In the process of whole-hearted living, God gave me glimpses of His power and wonder. I rarely speak of them here at GSC, because I hold to the scripture verses that tell us to be humble and silent on these things.... else people start comparing their experiences with mine. Furthermore, we are not to be boastful of how God intervenes in our lives.
My main desire here at GSC is to help others get out of the trap of wierwille's doctrine. There is such a huge world out there. And, to be confined into a box is no way to live.
Some of the most incredible God-moments in my life were when I was, seemingly, going about my way and just living life. In the process of whole-hearted living, God gave me glimpses of His power and wonder. I rarely speak of them here at GSC, because I hold to the scripture verses that tell us to be humble and silent on these things.... else people start comparing their experiences with mine. Furthermore, we are not to be boastful of how God intervenes in our lives.
Sir, I understand fully...my life runs along these lines in a manner unique to me. There is no reason ever to put a man-made organization between myself and God, ever again.
Thanks for sharing that your life, I am very inspired. Considering your above quote its of note that when the Bella incident happened I was a cop out corps grad that God would never help, according to the way's doctrines....same with your scenarios Skyrider. Its of note you hadnt been speaking in tongues like a housa fire all those years leading up to....yeah....exactly. God's miracoulous goodness given to the lowly, bruised and broken.
I can confirm that the miraculous in my life follows this pattern.
I can recall an audible voice saving me from a motorcycle accident. I actually laid a bike down and was looking for whoever yelled at me and couldn’t find a soul in any direction besides the large truck running the stop sign.
I didn’t see any reason why I deserved this beyond the normal fatal accidents of this kind everywhere. That was pre TWI. Post new birth.
I had SIT but didn’t do it regularly - had not much for a couple years after the initial experience. I had no exposure to the law of believing or the greatest secret in the world today or the great principle.
I guess if I had to try and logically break it down I would wonder why God doesn’t yell at everyone prior to a crash or an angel or whatever. Or wonder if there was a prairie dog or a mole hiding that screamed at me like Balaams foot.
I still can’t explain it other than to say that maybe God being just and righteous finds different ways to put his thumb on a scale or something.
I know the depth of that explanation is astounding lol. But I truly have an aspect of my faith that is very childlike.
Charity.... thank you for so many insightful posts.
Well, since some are telling their stories of miracles and healing.... I thought that this might be the place to share with you one of mine. I have never told this personal miracle here at GSC.
On my second year of college at the University of Nebraska, it was a Friday afternoon and I had decided to head home to see family and friends. At the time, I had a 1967 Ford Galaxy 500 fastback and a 900 Kawasaki motorcycle. Since it was a relatively nice afternoon, I chose the bike. So, packed with nothing but a backpack... I get out on Interstate 80 and head west.
After about 40 miles, the wind gusts were picking up more intensity until it was a straight headwind. Since I wanted my bike to look sporty, I didn't have a windbreaker shield on this motorcycle. After several miles of enduring these strong headwinds, I thought the "reasonable" thing to do was to get behind an 18-wheeler and let this truck buffer the wind for me. All was going pretty well.... or, so I thought.
Another 8-10 miles following this truck and then this miracle unfolded without so much as a thought. Cruising at 75-miles an hour.... a still, small (audible) voice in my head said, "Stop following this truck. Get around him." Immediately startled somewhat, I quickly prompted the question in my mind... "Was that you, God? If so, then I better obey." So I accelerated and moving swiftly into the left lane (4-lane highway) and was side-by-side with the truck driver seating in his seat. This took all of 6-8 seconds. POW !!! The inside dual tire blew and unraveled in a ker-splat, ker-splat.... RIGHT WHERE I HAD BEEN BEHIND THIS TRUCK.
Nearly stunned by this chain of events, I couldn't help but think how devastating this accident would have been. I didn't have a helmet on and was traveling 75-miles an hour. At best, I would have laid the bike down and been scraping along the pavement tearing skin, pavement burning and probably broken many bones. Or death. All I know is that God intervened and saved me from calamity (or death) at 20-years old.
I was a Christian at the time and sporadically attending a few meetings with Campus Crusade on campus. Lest it should be pointed out.... I was NOT involved in twi when this miracle happened. God forewarned little ole me someone who wasn't instructed in wierwille's revelation and power manifestations. I've always believed since being born again that God looks on the heart.... not head knowledge or boasting of the same. He's a loving and passionate Father who looks out for His children.
Having experienced this myself, I often read the Book of John with great interest.... seeing how Jesus ministered one-on-one to individuals, not necessarily groups. God is good always.
Your personal relationship with God right after becoming His child makes me curious as to who ministered the Word to you at the time.This bonding between you and God seems to have been pure, uncontaminated by man-made traditions or rules.Your acceptance of Christ came without “need-to-do next steps” and the subsequent guilt and conditional feelings of love to burden you. What a breath of fresh air to see you experience this.
Also, the wonder of your trust in God that when He spoke to you, you immediately obeyed his voice (which in turn saved your life) is so precious. How things must have changed when you took on the heavy yoke of twi.And now to see that you have regained your relationship with a loving and passionate Father who cares for you, his child, is very inspiring.
When comparing what OldSkool, Skyrider and Chockfull shared to how Mike is endeavoring to understand the scarcity of miracles, the difference between the two is striking.
How does his one hunch “that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet” fit in with what they experienced?
When referring to the universal scarcity of miracles (according to him), how does his “very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders” fit in?
I know Mike is putting it out on GSC for us to consider and I will go back to read his explanation of Daniel 10, but you can see how complicated his thinking is on this topic of miracles.I wonder if he did hear a miraculous voice telling him to do something, how applying such a complicated formula would delay his actions resulting in possible harm coming to him.
For the past two weeks I have been reading a lot here; far more than every before.I’ve also been resisting the urge to post every time I see an opportunity. That has helped my reading progress.I even got another chapter read yesterday in “Undertow.”
*/*/*
OldSkool, the more you share your life here, the more I can relate to what you folks are doing here.A few others have also helped me relate to how things went at TWI after I left in 1988. In my mind I was leaving before 1988, and openly criticizing the Corps tactics and structure even as early as 1982.So I turned a deaf ear to lots of TWI-2 by the ’86 meltdown.
The more I read the more I see that things changed more than I thought in the late 80s and thru the 90s.
I have to admit, this separating the baby from the bathwater is more complicated than I thought it would be 20 years ago.
What I am trying to say is I am better recognizing the culty trappings of the Corps and TWI-2 and TWI-3, and the difficulties in breaking away from them.Translated into action, these observations have led me to read more and post less.
*/*/*/*
To avoid directly debating these following points, I will not address them to a quote.
This little theory or hunch I am airing out here is still in the making. I am not insisting that this double door and tight budget thing is true.It just seems to help me think sometimes, and it has been persistent over decades in popping up in my mind.
But NEVER have I been entertaining the thought that God is interested in “turning off miracles.”
I always see it as a temporary STRATEGIC measure, that God would cause the doors to close.It’s limiting the adversary’s power over us that I see as God’s motivation behind the closed doors.I think He is always looking for the safe opportunity for Him to bless us in ways that do not allow the adversary the ability to mess it up. Opening the doors for a direct and powerful intervention seems to not be His inclination, due to circumstances.
God not only looks at our believing before a miracle occurs, but afterwards as well.
He sees in fore-knowledge where our believing will be after the miracle. I feel God looks to see that we are ready and able and believing for the miracle, but He ALSO looks at our believing to handle the “after-challenges” of the adversary.
An example of this might be how Elisha handled the post-healing scenario with Naaman, compared to how Gehazi mis-handled it.
*/*/*
Something that was a big part of my life before my first twig was “cosmic consciousness.”
It was in the wind in those days, late Sixties and early Seventies. It was in the music and in many people’s minds. Achieving it with drugs seemed like a great shortcut, at first, but it was only a taste, at best.
As I studied the ancients as well as modern enlightenment programs I developed a strong sense of SCARCITY of people who were willing to discipline their minds well enough to achieve the delicate state of enlightenment. I had a super hard time following authors who would teach on this. Reading them was an exciting adventure, but disciplining my thinking in between reading sessions was the hard part.
When I got into the Word, it was immediately apparent to me that “ believing” and “fellowship” was equivalent to this delicate cosmic consciousness I had been pursuing. Fellowship got super easy to achieve when I discovered the First Epistle of John, but believing without a trace of doubt remained hard.
When VPW taught about “mental assent” I completely knew what he meant. It was simple agreement with some idea, and a pleasant feeling that it was true, but lacking the crystallization required to take bold action. I could also see many grads around me who lacked any understanding of the difference between believing and mental assent.
Hardly anyone, back then, would even speak out the term “mental assent.”
The word “assent” is relatively rare, and I think the less educated grads never really embraced what mental assent was and how super common it was.
I just always had the feeling that many grads never got the difference, and pretty much ignored the ideas behind these subtle differences.
I think most of the confusion about the law of believing comes from people thinking that their mental assent is real true believing, the kind of true believing that Jesus talked about, and having no doubts. I think real believing is rare and mental assent is very common.I know for sure that’s the way it works with me.
I hardly ever see anyone write the phrase “mental assent” here.
My hunch is that mental assent is abundant and that real solid believing is scarce, and hence the main reason for the scarcity of miracles.
*/*/*
I am almost ready to post the scriptures I had promised. I’ve broken them up into 2 groups:the “double doors” verses and the “budgetary” ones. The double doors ones are fewer, so that will be first.
When comparing what OldSkool, Skyrider and Chockfull shared to how Mike is endeavoring to understand the scarcity of miracles, the difference between the two is striking.
How does his one hunch “that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet” fit in?
When referring to the universal scarcity of miracles (according to him), how does his “very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders” fit in?
I know Mike is putting it out on GSC for us to consider and I will go back to read his explanation of Daniel 10, but you can see how complicated his thinking is on this topic of miracles.I wonder if he did hear a miraculous voice telling him to do something, how applying such a complicated formula would delay his actions resulting in possible harm coming to him.
I used to see things similar to mike, in that everything had to filter through wierwille's doctrines. When I stopped trying to prop up false doctrines is where I began to understand some of the things Ive explained...I didnt come up with the concepts either. Most everything I said above is straight out the Bible.
For the past two weeks I have been reading a lot here; far more than every before.I’ve also been resisting the urge to post every time I see an opportunity. That has helped my reading progress.I even got another chapter read yesterday in “Undertow.”
*/*/*
OldSkool, the more you share your life here, the more I can relate to what you folks are doing here.A few others have also helped me relate to how things went at TWI after I left in 1988. In my mind I was leaving before 1988, and openly criticizing the Corps tactics and structure even as early as 1982.So I turned a deaf ear to lots of TWI-2 by the ’86 meltdown.
The more I read the more I see that things changed more than I thought in the late 80s and thru the 90s.
I have to admit, this separating the baby from the bathwater is more complicated than I thought it would be 20 years ago.
What I am trying to say is I am better recognizing the culty trappings of the Corps and TWI-2 and TWI-3, and the difficulties in breaking away from them.Translated into action, these observations have led me to read more and post less.
*/*/*/*
To avoid directly debating these following points, I will not address them to a quote.
This little theory or hunch I am airing out here is still in the making. I am not insisting that this double door and tight budget thing is true.It just seems to help me think sometimes, and it has been persistent over decades in popping up in my mind.
But NEVER have I been entertaining the thought that God is interested in “turning off miracles.”
I always see it as a temporary STRATEGIC measure, that God would cause the doors to close.It’s limiting the adversary’s power over us that I see as God’s motivation behind the closed doors.I think He is always looking for the safe opportunity for Him to bless us in ways that do not allow the adversary the ability to mess it up. Opening the doors for a direct and powerful intervention seems to not be His inclination, due to circumstances.
God not only looks at our believing before a miracle occurs, but afterwards as well.
He sees in fore-knowledge where our believing will be after the miracle. I feel God looks to see that we are ready and able and believing for the miracle, but He ALSO looks at our believing to handle the “after-challenges” of the adversary.
An example of this might be how Elisha handled the post-healing scenario with Naaman, compared to how Gehazi mis-handled it.
*/*/*
Something that was a big part of my life before my first twig was “cosmic consciousness.”
It was in the wind in those days, late Sixties and early Seventies. It was in the music and in many people’s minds. Achieving it with drugs seemed like a great shortcut, at first, but it was only a taste, at best.
As I studied the ancients as well as modern enlightenment programs I developed a strong sense of SCARCITY of people who were willing to discipline their minds well enough to achieve the delicate state of enlightenment. I had a super hard time following authors who would teach on this. Reading them was an exciting adventure, but disciplining my thinking in between reading sessions was the hard part.
When I got into the Word, it was immediately apparent to me that “ believing” and “fellowship” was equivalent to this delicate cosmic consciousness I had been pursuing. Fellowship got super easy to achieve when I discovered the First Epistle of John, but believing without a trace of doubt remained hard.
When VPW taught about “mental assent” I completely knew what he meant. It was simple agreement with some idea, and a pleasant feeling that it was true, but lacking the crystallization required to take bold action. I could also see many grads around me who lacked any understanding of the difference between believing and mental assent.
Hardly anyone, back then, would even speak out the term “mental assent.”
The word “assent” is relatively rare, and I think the less educated grads never really embraced what mental assent was and how super common it was.
I just always had the feeling that many grads never got the difference, and pretty much ignored the ideas behind these subtle differences.
I think most of the confusion about the law of believing comes from people thinking that their mental assent is real true believing, the kind of true believing that Jesus talked about, and having no doubts. I think real believing is rare and mental assent is very common.I know for sure that’s the way it works with me.
I hardly ever see anyone write the phrase “mental assent” here.
My hunch is that mental assent is abundant and that real solid believing is scarce, and hence the main reason for the scarcity of miracles.
*/*/*
I am almost ready to post the scriptures I had promised. I’ve broken them up into 2 groups:the “double doors” verses and the “budgetary” ones. The double doors ones are fewer, so that will be first.
I'm gonna cut right to the chase here, Mike. If, after all these years, you still cling to the law of believing as being real, I must conclude it's not only the "old grads" (your label) who have had trouble paying attention.
For the past two weeks I have been reading a lot here; far more than every before.I’ve also been resisting the urge to post every time I see an opportunity. That has helped my reading progress.I even got another chapter read yesterday in “Undertow.”
*/*/*
OldSkool, the more you share your life here, the more I can relate to what you folks are doing here.A few others have also helped me relate to how things went at TWI after I left in 1988. In my mind I was leaving before 1988, and openly criticizing the Corps tactics and structure even as early as 1982.So I turned a deaf ear to lots of TWI-2 by the ’86 meltdown.
The more I read the more I see that things changed more than I thought in the late 80s and thru the 90s.
I have to admit, this separating the baby from the bathwater is more complicated than I thought it would be 20 years ago.
What I am trying to say is I am better recognizing the culty trappings of the Corps and TWI-2 and TWI-3, and the difficulties in breaking away from them.Translated into action, these observations have led me to read more and post less.
*/*/*/*
To avoid directly debating these following points, I will not address them to a quote.
This little theory or hunch I am airing out here is still in the making. I am not insisting that this double door and tight budget thing is true.It just seems to help me think sometimes, and it has been persistent over decades in popping up in my mind.
But NEVER have I been entertaining the thought that God is interested in “turning off miracles.”
I always see it as a temporary STRATEGIC measure, that God would cause the doors to close.It’s limiting the adversary’s power over us that I see as God’s motivation behind the closed doors.I think He is always looking for the safe opportunity for Him to bless us in ways that do not allow the adversary the ability to mess it up. Opening the doors for a direct and powerful intervention seems to not be His inclination, due to circumstances.
God not only looks at our believing before a miracle occurs, but afterwards as well.
He sees in fore-knowledge where our believing will be after the miracle. I feel God looks to see that we are ready and able and believing for the miracle, but He ALSO looks at our believing to handle the “after-challenges” of the adversary.
An example of this might be how Elisha handled the post-healing scenario with Naaman, compared to how Gehazi mis-handled it.
*/*/*
Something that was a big part of my life before my first twig was “cosmic consciousness.”
It was in the wind in those days, late Sixties and early Seventies. It was in the music and in many people’s minds. Achieving it with drugs seemed like a great shortcut, at first, but it was only a taste, at best.
As I studied the ancients as well as modern enlightenment programs I developed a strong sense of SCARCITY of people who were willing to discipline their minds well enough to achieve the delicate state of enlightenment. I had a super hard time following authors who would teach on this. Reading them was an exciting adventure, but disciplining my thinking in between reading sessions was the hard part.
When I got into the Word, it was immediately apparent to me that “ believing” and “fellowship” was equivalent to this delicate cosmic consciousness I had been pursuing. Fellowship got super easy to achieve when I discovered the First Epistle of John, but believing without a trace of doubt remained hard.
When VPW taught about “mental assent” I completely knew what he meant. It was simple agreement with some idea, and a pleasant feeling that it was true, but lacking the crystallization required to take bold action. I could also see many grads around me who lacked any understanding of the difference between believing and mental assent.
Hardly anyone, back then, would even speak out the term “mental assent.”
The word “assent” is relatively rare, and I think the less educated grads never really embraced what mental assent was and how super common it was.
I just always had the feeling that many grads never got the difference, and pretty much ignored the ideas behind these subtle differences.
I think most of the confusion about the law of believing comes from people thinking that their mental assent is real true believing, the kind of true believing that Jesus talked about, and having no doubts. I think real believing is rare and mental assent is very common.I know for sure that’s the way it works with me.
I hardly ever see anyone write the phrase “mental assent” here.
My hunch is that mental assent is abundant and that real solid believing is scarce, and hence the main reason for the scarcity of miracles.
*/*/*
I am almost ready to post the scriptures I had promised. I’ve broken them up into 2 groups:the “double doors” verses and the “budgetary” ones. The double doors ones are fewer, so that will be first.
So in your mind, Mike, it all narrows to the cliche excuse of all those B movie mediums and grifters: You didn't belive.
So, tell me, if this is so vital, how does one know if he's mental assenting or believing?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
358
229
215
220
Popular Days
Mar 4
144
May 2
83
Apr 29
77
Mar 5
70
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 358 posts
So_crates 229 posts
OldSkool 215 posts
Nathan_Jr 220 posts
Popular Days
Mar 4 2023
144 posts
May 2 2023
83 posts
Apr 29 2023
77 posts
Mar 5 2023
70 posts
Popular Posts
chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
Posted Images
Charity
I want to emphasize that I do not believe the word "believe" in verse 19 has anything whatsoever to do with the law of believing. The word "believes" means to trust and the one we are to trust is God.
T-Bone had written earlier on this thread, "what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes."
I agree with T-Bone. The manifestation of faith needed to do miracles and healings is dependent upon receiving revelation from God and this revelation is dependent upon God's plans and purposes. This revelation from God could be what Paul is praying for when he says in Eph 1:17 "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:"
What Paul is praying for must be God's will which means God wants us to desire these things which will glorify Him. The fact that it all seems just out of my reach makes me wonder why that is. Sorry, I know I'm getting a bit personal here
but it is what it is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I wonder why you feel you must apologize. You did nothing wrong. However, to me it is noteworthy you feel safe enough to BE personal here. FWIW, I'm reading, this evening, in the book Emotional Inheritance: a Therapist, Her Patients, and the Legacy of Trauma. There are three parts to the book, as author Galit Atlas describes emotional inheritance from our grandparents, then from our parents, then from the perspective of the patient(s) themselves. Thus far, in each (I'm 75-80 percent through the book) I found myself considering what I might have inherited from each, including the two grandparents I never met.
Clearly, Wierwille represented a parental figure to many of us (and likely, to second generation wayfers who never met him, a grandparent figure). My main point is you have every right to work through your own therapy on GSC however you decide you need it.
That could also be what Mike's doing too... but for him, it's trying to justify an unworthy parent.
Anyway, my best wished to you Charity.
Edited by RockyLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Me too! Thank you for sharing that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Great posts, Charity!
As far as your mentioning to ponder the scarcity of miracles – I just wanted to say a few words to clarify what I’ve already said. I think my leaning toward cessationism regarding the utterance manifestations is probably due to the regimented mentality I’ve seen in TWI. In my 12 years’ experience THAT is all I saw…Looking back it seems so artificial…man-made. And that’s my sentiment on this thread.
Complaining of the shortage of miracles is another symptom of the TWI-mindset desires to control the power of God. “you operate the manifestations…signs, miracles and wonders follow believers, class…what power we had if we only knew it.”
Maybe it’s just me – so take everything I say with a grain of salt – for 12 years in TWI there I developed an internal self-defeating dynamic. By leadership and groupthink I was prodded…motivated to crave power…but all the hype of the ministry classes and their dubious content left me frustrated and disappointed. So I was up…then down…up…then down…up…then down.
I mentioned seeing the Jesus Revolution movie earlier. What resonated the most with me was the experience of the inner transformation. That is real. That’s what was lacking for me in TWI - it was mostly superficial for me. I think I’ve gotten a lot more out of the Bible and experienced a lot more internal revolutions…evolutions…whatever since I got out of that harmful and controlling cult…In TWI I was looking for and expecting what TWI dictated.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Who ever said miracles are scarce? They may be scarce in an individual's life or even perspective if one is to rationalize them away. God has noore stopped miracles than he has stopped the sun from rising. Lack of miracles in ones life can also generate from a lack of relational faith in Christ.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
You are so right OldSkool – thank you for pointing this out. The deliverance you experienced in your life is a testament to miracles happening in this day and time.
Mike’s opening post on this thread said, “We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen.” (Previously, he was referring to a miracle that never happened [as far as he knew] to George who had a congenital limb defect in one arm.)
T-Bone wrote in the post before yours, “By leadership and groupthink I was prodded…motivated to crave power…but all the hype of the ministry classes and their dubious content left me frustrated and disappointed.”
(I will reply to Mike’s and T-Bone’s posts to share my thoughts directly with them.)
______________
I've now realized that I had narrowed my definition of a miracle to the ones physically seen throughout the Bible, but the following websites define a miracle as such:
“A miracle is an event that is inexplicable by natural or scientific laws and accordingly gets attributed to some supernatural or praeternatural cause.” Wikipedia
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › mira...
"an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature" https://dictionary.cambridge.org › dictionary › miracle
“an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.” https://www.dictionary.com › browse › miracle
______________
What happened to Saul on the road to Damascus – the bright light, his conversation with Jesus and his sudden blindness - was a “spectacular” miracle witnessed by the men who travelled with him. But I think just as miraculous was what Paul said in Galatians 1 concerning this event, “ 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen.”
How did God accomplish this other than the work of the holy spirit in Paul’s life?
Every time someone gets born again, it’s a miracle. Is not every time God works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Phil 2:13) a miracle according to these definitions?
Maybe if we recognize these extraordinary internal events also as miracles which happen every day in believer's lives, then we won’t find such outwardly signs of miracles as recorded in the Bible so far-fetched or outside our reach.
Edited by CharityLink to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I can see how for EVERYONE, God healing George of the congenital limb defect in his one arm would be a spectacular miracle - I would have as well. But I think that the expectation by everyone that God would do it at that specific part in pfal speaks of a misunderstanding of what a miracle is.
A miracle is according to God's plan and purposes - not according to ours.
Where was George's prayer in all of this? By your own words as outlined in red above, George HAD it! The desire for this miracle was obviously in the minds of everyone else, but was it in George's? Did the believers talk to him as if he needed this miracle to live a more than abundant life?
Another thing is that there was no mention in your story, especially in the green high-lighted part, about giving any glory to God should such a miracle had happened. I'm pretty sure there would be many who would have given the glory to vp and pfal.
I believe there is a lot of unlearning about miracles and healings that need to be done.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I can see that what you said about "TWI-mindset desires to control the power of God" was quite evident in Mike's initial post on this thread. I remember when I got back home after taking the advanced class, I immediately heard of a gentleman in our fellowship who had just passed away. I literally was all set to go and raise him from the dead but my wow coordinator from a few years back was with me and stopped me. I can't remember what her reason for doing so was. But that was my first thought of what to do. I'm not saying now that the ac put that idea in my head because I have since forgotten what was taught in it but it does reflect that mindset of controlling the power of God.
I imagine the frustration and disappointment you described -"So I was up…then down…up…then down…up…then down" might also have been due to the hype and dubious teaching of the law of believing. When it comes to the healing of my 8-year-old grandson with non-verbal autism, I see it now as a walk with God to understand his ways and purposes and trusting his eternal love and goodness that whether in this life or when Christ returns, he will be healed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Thank you Rocky. As to what you said about my feeling safe enough to be personal on GSC, this has been true since the first time I posted on the Absent Christ thread. It was and still is the understanding and empathy shown by many of the posters that has helped me to open my heart to what I dealt with in twi and to all Christ has been doing in me since being on GSC.
What you wrote about emotional inheritance is intriguing. I can see how it most likely contributed to my desire to be part of twi when I was 18. I’m wondering as well how this inheritance is playing out in my life now. I’ve just placed a hold on Atlas’ book at the library – I’m fourth in line. Thanks for mentioning it.
It is noteworthy to me how you continue to learn so much from the books you've shared on GSC as part of your own working through things that are on your heart and mind. You are a man on a journey
. (Use the space bar before the yellow dude and you can make him walk 
.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I want to point out a few items in this regard:
The way international basically teaches us that miracles happen by OUR OPERATION of the gift of holy spirit and we have been given all the exousia and a few other Greek words to make it happen. Law of believing comes to mind here as well also, the concept that God endowed us with sonship rights and God has already given us everything and all we have to do is claim it.
I tried EVERY bit of this non-sense to the letter and it all fell flat. I had several hot shot clergy guys involved as well and we were all doing it all together with our like minded believing and all. Name it and claim it. It all fell flat. None of it worked, and the directors know it doesnt work. I tried to get John Rupp to even pray for my son and he held him in hand, looked at him dumbfounded and handed him back to me without so much as a thank you Father coming from his lips. At the top levels of the way international miracles are scarce, within the way international miracles are scarce. I can acknowledge that.
But...Ive learned quite a few things since then....In no order of importance:
- Quit demanding God do anything. God resists the proud, and well, God is God. We may not understand everything but we stay faithful in our trust that God will meet our needs above and beyond anything we could ask or think and we should approach God with a repectful mindset, not a demanding one. We should ASK in faith, not demand in faith. Does that mean if we are frustrated and go in prayer we cant ask for clarification of pour out our hearts? No. Sometimes pouring our our hearts to God unloads a lot of unpleasantness, but like David, we should pour out the good, bad, and the ugly and get back to asking respectfully.
- Understand that God has not already given everything, but in scripture many times things are stated as if they are already past. By his stripes we were healed...but take a look at our corrupted bodies and you will see plenty things wrong. So, obviously, its figurative with the emphasis placed on the absolute nature of an extremely certain future where God will wipe away all tears, sickness, death, etc. So instead of trying to find a cookie jar goto God and ASK for what you need. Ask in faith, nothing wavering.
- We do not make miracles happen of our own volition and we do not do it on demand. That's a huge error. We should ask that God/Christ grant miracles to be done by our hands, not demand it happen and get mad when it doesnt, because demanding anything from God is a great way to make sure it doesn't happen. Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened.
- Our society is schooled to not accept the suprenatural, but to rationalize it all away. God is a God of miracles and he made what is natural as well as the super natural. A faithf based perspective is helpful. Im not talking about rose colored glasses, I tossed my pair when I left TWI. Im not talking about taking a course of anti-biotics and calling it a miracle: thats denial. Im talking about having an open enough mind to recognize a miracle when it happens and let that build one's trust in the Father.
Silly example and it involved nothing on my part: Right at the height and the worst of my alcoholism and depression and such, back in 2017/2018 my wife decided to get us a Pomeranian. Mainly for me because she knew it would help, she works with the mentally ill and knows first hand how animals can help people heal and do better and at the time I was mentall ill. I am VERY attached to this dog, to this day. Well, when she was around 8 months old something completely crazy happened.
At the time I lived on a very busy street that was also a bus route for multiple lines. I was sitting on my porch after work and had the dog outside in the front yard. Well, Bella took off running into the street because she wanted to cross and lick the neighbors to death, except she ran directly under a moving bus. It took and entire house length for the bus to come to a complete stop down the street completely in front of my neighbors house on the right. Bella came running out from under the bus at the exact same spot she ran under it except an entire lots lenght down the street. She was yelping and I thought she was injured. I ran over to her as she was running full speed to me. When I picked her up she had not so much as a scratch and not so much as a speck of dirt on her and her fur wasnt even out of place. So my dog literally ran under a moving bus and didnt even have her fur ruffled. There is no logical, natural explanation for what happened or why she wasnt mangled because she was too big to fit under the bus in the first place without getting mangled by the undercarriage of the bus. With me being suicidal at the time who knows how I would have reacted to my little furry friend getting mangled in front of my eyes by a city bus. It's absolutely impossible what happened. There is no "logical" explanation.
That was a clear cut miracle in my life that was granted without me asking, and it was granted at a time when I was a really sick individual. Yet, God stepped in and somehow saved my dog. Ive tried to explain it away so many times and so many ways. Im not embellishing one iota of the story either. if anything Im still talking it down because its mind blowing.
There have been numerous miracles in my life since then. Maintaining a relationship with God/Christ is how miracles come about, except I let them figure out how to bring them to pass and if it involves me then so be it, if it doesnt then cool...I have one more thing to be thankful for.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Hi OldSkool,
https://thewayinternational.com/operating-the-gift-of-holy-spirit/
According to the above website, Twi teaches that "the nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a "basic" principle and this "great" principle, according to them, operates in this manner, "God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out." (Underlining is mine.)
Their "great principle" is not only inaccurate and harmful, it is full of pride as you spoke about in your post. According to James 4:6 and 1 Peter 5:5, the opposite of God resisting the proud is that God gives grace to the humble and being humble is to accept that God's miracles are according to His ways and purposes.
Mary did not pray or believe for a miracle that she would become pregnant with a son who according to Luke 1:32,33 "32 ...shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
But God had a purpose in mind and knew Mary was humble as stated in verse 38 "And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."
God knows our hearts and just as with Mary and OldSkool's dog Bella, some miracles are God acting in power to fulfill His purposes without any human interaction. In other words, there was a purpose for both these miracles and that's why God did them.
Awesome sharing OldSkool!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Or our astronomical home from spinning.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Charity.... thank you for so many insightful posts.
Well, since some are telling their stories of miracles and healing.... I thought that this might be the place to share with you one of mine. I have never told this personal miracle here at GSC.
On my second year of college at the University of Nebraska, it was a Friday afternoon and I had decided to head home to see family and friends. At the time, I had a 1967 Ford Galaxy 500 fastback and a 900 Kawasaki motorcycle. Since it was a relatively nice afternoon, I chose the bike. So, packed with nothing but a backpack... I get out on Interstate 80 and head west.
After about 40 miles, the wind gusts were picking up more intensity until it was a straight headwind. Since I wanted my bike to look sporty, I didn't have a windbreaker shield on this motorcycle. After several miles of enduring these strong headwinds, I thought the "reasonable" thing to do was to get behind an 18-wheeler and let this truck buffer the wind for me. All was going pretty well.... or, so I thought.
Another 8-10 miles following this truck and then this miracle unfolded without so much as a thought. Cruising at 75-miles an hour.... a still, small (audible) voice in my head said, "Stop following this truck. Get around him." Immediately startled somewhat, I quickly prompted the question in my mind... "Was that you, God? If so, then I better obey." So I accelerated and moving swiftly into the left lane (4-lane highway) and was side-by-side with the truck driver seating in his seat. This took all of 6-8 seconds. POW !!! The inside dual tire blew and unraveled in a ker-splat, ker-splat.... RIGHT WHERE I HAD BEEN BEHIND THIS TRUCK.
Nearly stunned by this chain of events, I couldn't help but think how devastating this accident would have been. I didn't have a helmet on and was traveling 75-miles an hour. At best, I would have laid the bike down and been scraping along the pavement tearing skin, pavement burning and probably broken many bones. Or death. All I know is that God intervened and saved me from calamity (or death) at 20-years old.
I was a Christian at the time and sporadically attending a few meetings with Campus Crusade on campus. Lest it should be pointed out.... I was NOT involved in twi when this miracle happened. God forewarned little ole me someone who wasn't instructed in wierwille's revelation and power manifestations. I've always believed since being born again that God looks on the heart.... not head knowledge or boasting of the same. He's a loving and passionate Father who looks out for His children.
Having experienced this myself, I often read the Book of John with great interest.... seeing how Jesus ministered one-on-one to individuals, not necessarily groups. God is good always.
Edited by skyridertypos
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Thanks for sharing that your life, I am very inspired. Considering your above quote its of note that when the Bella incident happened I was a cop out corps grad that God would never help, according to the way's doctrines....same with your scenarios Skyrider. Its of note you hadnt been speaking in tongues like a housa fire all those years leading up to....yeah....exactly. God's miracoulous goodness given to the lowly, bruised and broken.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
You are so right, Oldskool.
I was NOT speaking in tongues like a house of fire. I did NOT have all twi's head knowledge of the 16 keys to walking by the spirit. I was NOT "fully instructed" (cough, cough) to the point of spiritual maturity. In fact, I hadn't even heard of twi let alone taken their pfal class. But I was born again and in the beginning stages of learning about my heavenly Father.
Some of the most incredible God-moments in my life were when I was, seemingly, going about my way and just living life. In the process of whole-hearted living, God gave me glimpses of His power and wonder. I rarely speak of them here at GSC, because I hold to the scripture verses that tell us to be humble and silent on these things.... else people start comparing their experiences with mine. Furthermore, we are not to be boastful of how God intervenes in our lives.
My main desire here at GSC is to help others get out of the trap of wierwille's doctrine. There is such a huge world out there. And, to be confined into a box is no way to live.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Sir, I understand fully...my life runs along these lines in a manner unique to me. There is no reason ever to put a man-made organization between myself and God, ever again.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I can confirm that the miraculous in my life follows this pattern.
I can recall an audible voice saving me from a motorcycle accident. I actually laid a bike down and was looking for whoever yelled at me and couldn’t find a soul in any direction besides the large truck running the stop sign.
I didn’t see any reason why I deserved this beyond the normal fatal accidents of this kind everywhere. That was pre TWI. Post new birth.
I had SIT but didn’t do it regularly - had not much for a couple years after the initial experience. I had no exposure to the law of believing or the greatest secret in the world today or the great principle.
I guess if I had to try and logically break it down I would wonder why God doesn’t yell at everyone prior to a crash or an angel or whatever. Or wonder if there was a prairie dog or a mole hiding that screamed at me like Balaams foot.
I still can’t explain it other than to say that maybe God being just and righteous finds different ways to put his thumb on a scale or something.
I know the depth of that explanation is astounding lol. But I truly have an aspect of my faith that is very childlike.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Your personal relationship with God right after becoming His child makes me curious as to who ministered the Word to you at the time. This bonding between you and God seems to have been pure, uncontaminated by man-made traditions or rules. Your acceptance of Christ came without “need-to-do next steps” and the subsequent guilt and conditional feelings of love to burden you. What a breath of fresh air to see you experience this.
Also, the wonder of your trust in God that when He spoke to you, you immediately obeyed his voice (which in turn saved your life) is so precious. How things must have changed when you took on the heavy yoke of twi. And now to see that you have regained your relationship with a loving and passionate Father who cares for you, his child, is very inspiring.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
When comparing what OldSkool, Skyrider and Chockfull shared to how Mike is endeavoring to understand the scarcity of miracles, the difference between the two is striking.
How does his one hunch “that we grads have not yet really graduated to that level yet” fit in with what they experienced?
When referring to the universal scarcity of miracles (according to him), how does his “very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders” fit in?
I know Mike is putting it out on GSC for us to consider and I will go back to read his explanation of Daniel 10, but you can see how complicated his thinking is on this topic of miracles. I wonder if he did hear a miraculous voice telling him to do something, how applying such a complicated formula would delay his actions resulting in possible harm coming to him.
Edited by CharityLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
For the past two weeks I have been reading a lot here; far more than every before. I’ve also been resisting the urge to post every time I see an opportunity. That has helped my reading progress. I even got another chapter read yesterday in “Undertow.”
*/*/*
OldSkool, the more you share your life here, the more I can relate to what you folks are doing here. A few others have also helped me relate to how things went at TWI after I left in 1988. In my mind I was leaving before 1988, and openly criticizing the Corps tactics and structure even as early as 1982. So I turned a deaf ear to lots of TWI-2 by the ’86 meltdown.
The more I read the more I see that things changed more than I thought in the late 80s and thru the 90s.
I have to admit, this separating the baby from the bathwater is more complicated than I thought it would be 20 years ago.
What I am trying to say is I am better recognizing the culty trappings of the Corps and TWI-2 and TWI-3, and the difficulties in breaking away from them. Translated into action, these observations have led me to read more and post less.
*/*/*/*
To avoid directly debating these following points, I will not address them to a quote.
This little theory or hunch I am airing out here is still in the making. I am not insisting that this double door and tight budget thing is true. It just seems to help me think sometimes, and it has been persistent over decades in popping up in my mind.
But NEVER have I been entertaining the thought that God is interested in “turning off miracles.”
I always see it as a temporary STRATEGIC measure, that God would cause the doors to close. It’s limiting the adversary’s power over us that I see as God’s motivation behind the closed doors. I think He is always looking for the safe opportunity for Him to bless us in ways that do not allow the adversary the ability to mess it up. Opening the doors for a direct and powerful intervention seems to not be His inclination, due to circumstances.
God not only looks at our believing before a miracle occurs, but afterwards as well.
He sees in fore-knowledge where our believing will be after the miracle. I feel God looks to see that we are ready and able and believing for the miracle, but He ALSO looks at our believing to handle the “after-challenges” of the adversary.
An example of this might be how Elisha handled the post-healing scenario with Naaman, compared to how Gehazi mis-handled it.
*/*/*
Something that was a big part of my life before my first twig was “cosmic consciousness.”
It was in the wind in those days, late Sixties and early Seventies. It was in the music and in many people’s minds. Achieving it with drugs seemed like a great shortcut, at first, but it was only a taste, at best.
As I studied the ancients as well as modern enlightenment programs I developed a strong sense of SCARCITY of people who were willing to discipline their minds well enough to achieve the delicate state of enlightenment. I had a super hard time following authors who would teach on this. Reading them was an exciting adventure, but disciplining my thinking in between reading sessions was the hard part.
When I got into the Word, it was immediately apparent to me that “ believing” and “fellowship” was equivalent to this delicate cosmic consciousness I had been pursuing. Fellowship got super easy to achieve when I discovered the First Epistle of John, but believing without a trace of doubt remained hard.
When VPW taught about “mental assent” I completely knew what he meant. It was simple agreement with some idea, and a pleasant feeling that it was true, but lacking the crystallization required to take bold action. I could also see many grads around me who lacked any understanding of the difference between believing and mental assent.
Hardly anyone, back then, would even speak out the term “mental assent.”
The word “assent” is relatively rare, and I think the less educated grads never really embraced what mental assent was and how super common it was.
I just always had the feeling that many grads never got the difference, and pretty much ignored the ideas behind these subtle differences.
I think most of the confusion about the law of believing comes from people thinking that their mental assent is real true believing, the kind of true believing that Jesus talked about, and having no doubts. I think real believing is rare and mental assent is very common. I know for sure that’s the way it works with me.
I hardly ever see anyone write the phrase “mental assent” here.
My hunch is that mental assent is abundant and that real solid believing is scarce, and hence the main reason for the scarcity of miracles.
*/*/*
I am almost ready to post the scriptures I had promised. I’ve broken them up into 2 groups: the “double doors” verses and the “budgetary” ones. The double doors ones are fewer, so that will be first.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I used to see things similar to mike, in that everything had to filter through wierwille's doctrines. When I stopped trying to prop up false doctrines is where I began to understand some of the things Ive explained...I didnt come up with the concepts either. Most everything I said above is straight out the Bible.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I'm gonna cut right to the chase here, Mike. If, after all these years, you still cling to the law of believing as being real, I must conclude it's not only the "old grads" (your label) who have had trouble paying attention.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
So in your mind, Mike, it all narrows to the cliche excuse of all those B movie mediums and grifters: You didn't belive.
So, tell me, if this is so vital, how does one know if he's mental assenting or believing?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.