Not quite.
There is an element involved where I simply have better things to do elsewhere.... often. I didn't want to be so harsh as to say so outright, but you twisted my arm.
But I still care for you here, so I make some time available to minister here. If you want me to spend more time here, try pretending that I am succeeding in helping you here.... and maybe it will catch my attention to re-prioritize.
No better way to illustrate how God has a budget than you yourself having a budget of what you will look at when.
Thats because your God is more of the key chain figure type. Your Jesus is a dashboard bobble head.
Budget in = budget out.
Most non brainwashed people would prefer the Jesus Christ that has the unlimited version where the power is based upon the creator of the universe and not limited by self censorship of attention.
I realize that using the word budget is a real hot loaded word a real attention getter. I used it to get my own attention in my file cabinet with my paper folder for this topic. It was a very underused folder and it needed an attention getting name to avoid getting completely lost in my file cabinet but it communicates something to me and I haven’t been real clear about what that is, so then so I’m finally getting to that.
This is the beginning list I promised for the budget scriptures. It seems that dumping the whole list here would mean some items get less scrutiny, so I’ll do it in pieces.
*/*/*
The reason budget is such a crazy attention getter is because we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets. But we also know that God doesn’t always get His way on the Earthly flesh realm that we live in and die in. The “Our Father” prayer that Jesus taught embodies this paradox, this anomaly, this “What is going on here?” the universe that we’re living in, where God’s will is rarely done on Earth.
Brand new to the Bible at age 22, I had never even seen a Bible in church, and never touched one, never read one. We had a book we called a Missal, which was Bible clippings, and prayers and passages from the Middle Ages, and a big mixture of a lot of things. But they looked just like Bibles with black covers and ribbons. But I had never read the Bible at all until I became a hippie, and then my working of it was very lame, and then it suddenly changed one day with my first twig fellowship.
One of the first things I noticed in the Bible was that a lot of times God just barely won the battles in the Old Testament. It was a struggle between God and Pharaoh in Egypt.It was a struggle between Archangel Michael and that angel who reported in Daniel 9. Then in everyday life, when God would win the struggle it was always just by a hair, or it seemed sometimes the timing was just at the last minute. These were just impressions I got from life, and I’m noticing at age 22, that it’s in the Bible too that God seemed to be somewhat limited in His dealings with people in the Old Testament.
And then it changed with Jesus.
John 3:34-35 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jesus was given spirit without measure, as opposed to the way things were done in the Old Testament were spirit was given with measure. Jesus got an infinite dose of spirit whatever that means.
Which brings us to the great principle. But more on that later.
Elisha said, “Leave me a double portion of your spirit…”
Elisha had a natural man mind that was enmity against God, and thought the things of God were foolishness, and had a natural reaction of fear to any kind of spiritual intervention by the true God. Daniel 9 talks about the reactions of the other people around Daniel to the angelic visit and how fearful they were about it, resembling the way wild animals are afraid of humans.
*/*/*
2 Kings 2:9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “What can I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha answered, “May I receive a double portion of the prophetic spirit that energizes you.” 2:10 Elijah replied, “That’s a difficult request! If you see me taken from you, may it be so, but if you don’t, it will not happen.” [NET] Remarkably, the Bible records 28 miracles done by Elisha and 14 done by Elijah.
Elisha knew enough that he needed an interface with God so he wouldn’t be afraid, and he wouldn’t be ridiculing the things of God that he heard from Him, and that he could embrace things the way God saw things. A natural man mind can’t do this. It needs help. That’s what “spirit upon” was.
But what’s the most pertinent here is that Jesus got it without measure, while people before him got it with measure. It was limited; not infinite.
I have no idea what double spirit means, but I know God is saying something that’s getting my attention there, and I keep it in mind. why not triple? Why didn’t that prophet ask for triple? I don’t know but I do know we asked for double and that’s interesting to me.
The big question I get from all this is “Why is God using the idea of MEASURE here for spirit and spiritual things?Measure denotes limits, finite bounds to size.That’s what budgets are.Our cars do not have infinite gas tanks or batteries to run on.There is a FINITE MEASURE to how much gas or electricity we have to move our cars, and this applies to lots of other things.This is the stuff budgets are made of if a wise eye is aware of such finite measures.
*/*/*
Sometimes and in some places and some scriptures the “budget” seems a little tight.If it states it in the scriptures then we know something, and we may not know at all, but at least we got SOME kind of info from the scripture.
Paul was being hassled by people a lot, and he prayed (with believing I’d think) for God to open His door to infinite resources and fix this hindering situation.I was stunned to read in my early twenties that God had this answer to Paul’s prayers for deliverance:
2 Corinthians 12:9 NIV
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
There seems to be a sense of glory in just squeaking by with a finite measure… or budget.
This verse STILL gives me cause to pause, and think a little about the things going on behind the scenes spiritually with Jesus and the good angels, doing whatever they do.The verse tells me here it was a tight budget time for Paul at that time… unlike other times where Paul was on top of things, like in jail and singing in a friendly earthquake.
*/*/*
Like that verse on Paul’s thorn in the flesh, this one in Garden of Gethsemane says to me that even for Jesus who had spirit without measure, there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”Look how explicit this scene is here:
Mark 14:35,36
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
*/*/*
Giving a measure indicates a turning away from the possibility of infinite.
Giving a measure indicates a budget if it includes a wise handler of the finite commodity.
A budget means a wise handling of a finite measure.
Not quite.
There is an element involved where I simply have better things to do elsewhere.... often. I didn't want to be so harsh as to say so outright, but you twisted my arm.
But I still care for you here, so I make some time available to minister here. If you want me to spend more time here, try pretending that I am succeeding in helping you here.... and maybe it will catch my attention to re-prioritize.
Well, I don't want you to spend more time here. I don't have any wants for you at all.
You aren't helping me. You aren't ministering to me. And I won't pretend or make believe that you are.
I won't pretend Santa Claus has a side hustle breeding Easter bunnies.
I won't pretend four crucified is accurate.
I won't pretend victor was a THE man of god.
I won't pretend a lie is the truth.
I have a vivid, healthy imagination, but I won't play these pretend games.
I realize that using the word budget is a real hot loaded word a real attention getter. I used it to get my own attention in my file cabinet with my paper folder for this topic. It was a very underused folder and it needed an attention getting name to avoid getting completely lost in my file cabinet but it communicates something to me and I haven’t been real clear about what that is, so then so I’m finally getting to that.
1.)I don’t think “budget” is a hot loaded word – what got my attention was that it’s an inappropriate wordfor an idea you’re trying to shoehorn into a silly theory.
Part of why it seems like your forcing the concept into the Bible is that you’re using modern ideas to interpret ancient thought. (I get more into this in point 4 below modern vs ancient) . Reminds me of how wierwille erroneously taught about the Holy Spirit / holy spirit. Besides misconstruing of a separate entity ( a clone? )– distinct from the Holy Spirit – wierwille also used the car battery analogy to explain how this separate entity – holy spirit – powered the 9 manifestations. This gets into a whole other topic of how wrong wierwille got this – if someone’s interested in rehashing wierwille-doctrineand comparing that to biblical theology on the Holy Spirit, feel free to start a thread in doctrinal. I may or may not contribute, if I have the time – got other study and reading projects going on right now…anyway to summarize car battery, budgets, and mini-me-holy spirits modern mumbo jumbo gumbo to feed the elephant in the collaterals code name Operation Dumbo.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
This is the beginning list I promised for the budget scriptures. It seems that dumping the whole list here would mean some items get less scrutiny, so I’ll do it in pieces.
2.)why not give your audience a little more credit than that. I could be wrong, but that seems to me like you’re either bluffing [because you don’t have the whole list] or you’re afraid some items will not hold up well under scrutiny…have some respect for the intelligence of others and let them choose from the entire menu of your post(s).
It does take some courage to put yourself out there – because you’re opening yourself up – becoming vulnerable. But that helps to develop a rapport with your audience – and with the feedback loop of Grease Spot Café – that would be in keeping with your desire for brainstorming.
Another impractical thing about doing this in pieces is that you lose continuity. That’s probably one of the most obfuscating and deceitful things about PFAL – it was wierwille’s piecemeal attempt to cobble together a weird theology. If you follow that pattern you’ll probably confuse others and lose their attention.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
The reason budget is such a crazy attention getter is because we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets. But we also know that God doesn’t always get His way on the Earthly flesh realm that we live in and die in. The “Our Father” prayer that Jesus taught embodies this paradox, this anomaly, this “What is going on here?” the universe that we’re living in, where God’s will is rarely done on Earth.
3.)already explained why “budget” got my attention [see point 1]. I can’t speak for others – but I will challenge your idea that “we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets.”
just reflecting on that for my journey so far, it might best be described as undulating waves on a self-awareness oscilloscope . Graphically displaying over a lifetime the rise-and-fall-and-rise-and-fall-etcetera of tides - the ebb and flow of what I think I know about God [probably some childish thoughts, clumsy conclusions, false ideas, fantasies, and sci-fi stuff] along with the undercurrents and undertowof my belief system, good & bad habits, sins & imperfections…since there is no constant reference point I don’t think I’m in a position to determine if God is unlimited – or for that matter even knowing what that means.
BUT – your mention of how people might intuitively know something reminded me of a cool book Rocky mentioned earlier A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrongand in response to his recommendation I chimed in with The Case for God by Karen Armstrong – you might enjoy checking those 2 books out…this stuff gets into philosophy of religion and what drives people to look inward and outward…
…the more I think about it getting into alternate sources of inspiration might do you a world of good – since it seems to me you either have a wierwille/PFAL-centric frame of thought or extrapolate out from a wierwille/PFAL a position of central prominence or importance…if you’re interested in broadening your horizons I could recommend a few systematic theologies and stuff on hermeneutics. I’m not suggesting that any reference is perfect – but the ones I favor stand up to close scrutiny and present a coherent organization of the important tenets of Christianity.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
...And then it changed with Jesus.
John 3:34-35 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jesus was given spirit without measure, as opposed to the way things were done in the Old Testament were spirit was given with measure. Jesus got an infinite dose of spirit whatever that means.
4.A)modern vs ancient…using modern concepts to interpret ancient ideas. (a follow-up of point 1) I believe you are probably misinterpreting John 3:34For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaiming the Father’s own message]; for God gives the [gift of the] Spirit without measure [generously and boundlessly]! For so reads the Amplified version. Some info from NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible , The NET Bible: Second Beta Edition Edition , and NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture speak of an idiom referencing Leviticus Rabbahwhich is a homiletic midrash to the Biblical book of Leviticus, and thou online commentaries offer various interpretations most reflect the same idea of the Messiah’s unique stature as the Son of God. Perhaps in our modern way of thinking when you measure something, you’re gauging quantity – but from what I gather of the culturalisms, the idiom simply conveys the concept of Jesus Christ being unique and being authenticated by the Holy Spirit as the Messiah:
John 3:34. The reason assigned for the truth and trustworthiness of Christ’s words is scarcely the reason we expect: οὐ γὰρ … Πνεῦμα. John has told us that Christ is to be believed because He testifies of what He hath seen and heard: now, because the Spirit is given without measure to Him. The meaning of the clause is contested. The omission of ὁ θεός does not materially affect the sense, for ὁ θεός would naturally be supplied as the nominative to δίδωσι from τοῦ θεοῦ of the preceding clause. There are four interpretations. (1) Augustine, Calvin, Lücke, Alford, suppose the clause means that God, instead of giving occasional and limited supplies of the Spirit as had been given to the prophets, gives to Christ the fulness of the Spirit. (2) Meyer thinks that the primary reference is not to Christ but that the statement is general, that God gives the Spirit freely and abundantly, and does thus dispense it to Christ. (3) Westcott, following Cyril, makes Christ the subject and understands the clause as meaning that He proves His Messiahship by giving the Spirit without measure. (4) Godet makes τὸ πνεῦμα the subject, not the object, and supposes the meaning to be that the Spirit gives to Christ the words of God without measure. The words of John 3:35 seem to weigh in favour of the rendering of A.V[47]: “God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him”. The R.V[48] is ambiguous. ἐκ μέτρου, out of a measure, or, by measure, that is, sparingly. So ἐν μέτρῳ in Ezekiel 4:11. Wetstein quotes: “R. Achan dixit: etiam Spiritus S. non habitavit super Prophetas nisi mensura quadam: quidam enim librum unum, quidam duos vaticiniorum ediderunt”. The Spirit was given to Jesus not in the restricted and occasional manner in which it had been given to the O.T. prophets, but wholly, fully, constantly. It was by this Spirit His human nature was enlightened and guided to speak things divine; and this Spirit, interposed as it were between the Logos and the human nature of Christ, was as little cumbrous in its operation or perceptible in consciousness as our breath which is interposed between the thinking mind and the words which utter it.
Elisha said, “Leave me a double portion of your spirit…”
Elisha had a natural man mind that was enmity against God, and thought the things of God were foolishness, and had a natural reaction of fear to any kind of spiritual intervention by the true God. Daniel 9 talks about the reactions of the other people around Daniel to the angelic visit and how fearful they were about it, resembling the way wild animals are afraid of humans.
2 Kings 2:9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “What can I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha answered, “May I receive a double portion of the prophetic spirit that energizes you.” 2:10 Elijah replied, “That’s a difficult request! If you see me taken from you, may it be so, but if you don’t, it will not happen.” [NET] Remarkably, the Bible records 28 miracles done by Elisha and 14 done by Elijah.
Elisha knew enough that he needed an interface with God so he wouldn’t be afraid, and he wouldn’t be ridiculing the things of God that he heard from Him, and that he could embrace things the way God saw things. A natural man mind can’t do this. It needs help. That’s what “spirit upon” was.
But what’s the most pertinent here is that Jesus got it without measure, while people before him got it with measure. It was limited; not infinite.
5.) please review point 4about John 4:34.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
I have no idea what double spirit means
6.)obviously! Please review point 4.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
but I know God is saying something that’s getting my attention there, and I keep it in mind. why not triple? Why didn’t that prophet ask for triple? I don’t know but I do know we asked for double and that’s interesting to me.
The big question I get from all this is “Why is God using the idea of MEASURE here for spirit and spiritual things?Measure denotes limits, finite bounds to size.That’s what budgets are.Our cars do not have infinite gas tanks or batteries to run on.There is a FINITE MEASURE to how much gas or electricity we have to move our cars, and this applies to lots of other things.This is the stuff budgets are made of if a wise eye is aware of such finite measures.
7.)please review point 4.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
Sometimes and in some places and some scriptures the “budget” seems a little tight.If it states it in the scriptures then we know something, and we may not know at all, but at least we got SOME kind of info from the scripture.
8.)Knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgment, the manner in which information is collected and used....Carl Sagan …yes, we do get SOME kind of info from the scriptures – but HOW do we as modern readers interpret an ancient book – written over a span of some 1500 years by various writers holding various worldviews, in various cultures, using various languages?
Please review point 4 and try to draw some LOGICAL conclusions, and maybe learn more about the art and science of hermeneutics to better understand the ancient writers’ frame of mind instead of twisting stuff to fit into a template wierwille taught us.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
Paul was being hassled by people a lot, and he prayed (with believing I’d think) for God to open His door to infinite resources and fix this hindering situation.I was stunned to read in my early twenties that God had this answer to Paul’s prayers for deliverance:
2 Corinthians 12:9 NIV
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
There seems to be a sense of glory in just squeaking by with a finite measure… or budget.
This verse STILL gives me cause to pause, and think a little about the things going on behind the scenes spiritually with Jesus and the good angels, doing whatever they do.The verse tells me here it was a tight budget time for Paul at that time… unlike other times where Paul was on top of things, like in jail and singing in a friendly earthquake.
Like that verse on Paul’s thorn in the flesh, this one in Garden of Gethsemane says to me that even for Jesus who had spirit without measure, there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”Look how explicit this scene is here:
Mark 14:35,36
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
Giving a measure indicates a turning away from the possibility of infinite.
Giving a measure indicates a budget if it includes a wise handler of the finite commodity.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
A budget means a wise handling of a finite measure.
9.)Hermeneutics is a wise handling of Scripture and other thought provoking texts…it’s the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, as well as philosophical texts. Hermeneutics is more than interpretative principles or methods used when immediate comprehension fails and includes the art of understanding and communication.
Edited by T-Bone editing on a budget during this fiscal thread
The “Our Father” prayer that Jesus taught embodies this paradox, this anomaly, this “What is going on here?” the universe that we’re living in, where God’s will is rarely done on Earth.
Man, Mike, I dont know how in the world you even come up with this stuff. I would put forth that there are millions of people doing God's will on Earth. My Lord dude...get out of wierwille land.
Like that verse on Paul’s thorn in the flesh, this one in Garden of Gethsemane says to me that even for Jesus who had spirit without measure, there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”Look how explicit this scene is here:
Mark 14:35,36
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
But, if your "two doors" theory is true, there is as many people doing God's will as are doing Satan's will. The door opens and angels and devil spirits rush through, remember?
And, lest we forget, the real reason for these 39 pages of excuses: to cover Saint Vic's impotence in Iiving up to his own standard of "signs, miracles, and wonders following the man of God like a a tail follows a dog."
Mike, you remind me of the Catholic church making long exotic calculations to explain planets retrograde motion because they believed Earth was the center of the universe. Just as they refused to see the simple truth that the Earth revolved around the sun, you refuse to see the simple truth Saint Vic was a fake.
Man, Mike, I dont know how in the world you even come up with this stuff. I would put forth that there are millions of people doing God's will on Earth. My Lord dude...get out of wierwille land.
What did Jesus mean by teaching us that prayer?
Sure, sometimes people do God's will.
But all sin, sickness, and death are against God's will.
It is MYTH, not fact. Mike is exercising his imagination. I don't criticize him doing so. But it's important for readers to put it in a reasonable perspective.
Like that verse on Paul’s thorn in the flesh, this one in Garden of Gethsemane says to me that even for Jesus who had spirit without measure, there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”Look how explicit this scene is here:
Mark 14:35,36
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
Mike, I personally think this is the lowest I've seen you go. You have taken the most stressful time in Jesus' life according to Luke 22:44 ("And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.") - a time when he puts aside his own will to not be tortured and crucified in the horrific way the OT prophesied it would happen and instead finds the strength in his relationship with His Father to carry out God's will for you (John 3:16,17) and you degrade it with a statement such as "there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”
Do you even care what God your heavenly Father and Jesus your Savior and Redeemer must think and feel about what you wrote?
But all sin, sickness, and death are against God's will.
Teaching us to pray in like manner. Read what is written and you will have your answer.
There are millions and millions of people doing God's will, why do you come off so faithless? Is this the fruit of wierwillism?
All sin, sickness, and death are absolutely covered in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. What, because God chose a period of grace to give all who may come to Christ an opportunity for salvation that he is lack concerning his promises? It's covered in Christ and we have a downpayment in us of new, uncorruptable bodies in the future thus no sin, sickness, and eventually death. Again, read what is written and spend time building your faith in actual scripture.
Mike, I personally think this is the lowest I've seen you go. You have taken the most stressful time in Jesus' life according to Luke 22:44 ("And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.") - a time when he puts aside his own will to not be tortured and crucified in the horrific way the OT prophesied it would happen and instead finds the strength in his relationship with His Father to carry out God's will for you (John 3:16,17) and you degrade it with a statement such as "there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”
Do you even care what God your heavenly Father and Jesus your Savior and Redeemer must think and feel about what you wrote?
Mike will never get it because he is stll stumbling at Christ, the rock of offence because he's rejected the real Jesus Christ in favor of an absent myth made up by a creep that wanted to sit as the head of the body so badly that he made a corporation where he could live out his delusions of granduer. Wierwille and the way international.
Mike will never get it because he is stll stumbling at Christ, the rock of offence because he's rejected the real Jesus Christ in favor of an absent myth made up by a creep that wanted to sit as the head of the body so badly that he made a corporation where he could live out his delusions of granduer. Wierwille and the way international.
And, lest we forget, the real reason for these 39 pages of excuses: to cover Saint Vic's impotence in Iiving up to his own standard of "signs, miracles, and wonders following the man of God like a a tail follows a dog."
Mike will never get it because he is still stumbling at Christ, the rock of offence because he's rejected the real Jesus Christ in favor of an absent myth made up by a creep that wanted to sit as the head of the body so badly that he made a corporation where he could live out his delusions of grandeur. Wierwille and the way international.
I'm not sure you can factually perceive any reason Mike "will never get it."
Yes, Mike is dealing in myth. But it appears to me Mike expands wierwille's mythology by extrapolating verses he's now focused on with his (Mike's) imaginative interpretation of something he has no way of knowing except by way of his own imagination.
Continuing to look at the idea and not the invalid criticisms, I ask you this:
WHY would God put the idea of limited measure in where spiritual commodities are being talked about?
We have no way of performing such measurements, nor understand what they mean.... YET God outs that idea of limited measure of spirit in the scriptures.
I am trying to understand what He is telling us here.
Mike, I personally think this is the lowest I've seen you go. You have taken the most stressful time in Jesus' life according to Luke 22:44 ("And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.") - a time when he puts aside his own will to not be tortured and crucified in the horrific way the OT prophesied it would happen and instead finds the strength in his relationship with His Father to carry out God's will for you (John 3:16,17) and you degrade it with a statement such as "there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”
Do you even care what God your heavenly Father and Jesus your Savior and Redeemer must think and feel about what you wrote?
Nice try, but you are a rank amateur at conjuring up fear and condemnation.
Here's a hint: even if you get skilled at this, it only works on those who have not made the Word the guiding light of their life.
"Science would put an end to human misery and save the world. Nothing must impede this development. All the myths of the world should be subjected to stringent criticism and if they contradicted proven facts they must be cast aside. Reason alone gave access to this truth. The first scientist to fully absorb this empirical ethos was probably Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727), who synthesized the findings of his predecessors by a rigorous use of evolving scientific disciplines of experiment and deduction. He believed he was bringing his fellow human beings unprecedented and certain information about the world, that the cosmic system he had discovered coincided completely with the facts, and that it proved the existence of God, the great 'Mechanick' who brought the intricate machine of the universe into being.
"But this total immersion in logos [reason] made it impossible for Newton to appreciate the more intuitive forms of perception..."
Mike, I appreciate how you've begun to learn to own your role in the communication processes at work in online forums, but you still seem to have plenty of room for improvement because you still haven't forsaken name calling.
Rocky, why is it that you can't see that my calling Charity a rank amateur at evil is a compliment to her?
How is it that you try to avoid the message I gave you by deflection employing fallacy? Whether you intended your name calling as a compliment or not is neither apparent in your words (in the original statement) nor is it relevant to what I posed to you.
'm not sure you can factually perceive any reason Mike "will never get it."
No, but I can have my opinion based on reading a few thousand pages of his point of view. I think his own words are factual enough to form an opinion. Yeah they are like...but we all have one.
Rocky, why is it that you can't see that my calling Charity a rank amateur at evil is a compliment to her?
My name isnt rocky but name calling in a passive agressive manner is highly inappropriate. But so it goes with wierwille's followers...same as wierwille...when you get called on the carpet you result to bullying tactics. So keep showing your true colors.
No, but I can have my opinion based on reading a few thousand pages of his point of view. I think his own words are factual enough to form an opinion. Yeah they are like...but we all have one.
You certainly can have an opinion, which is just as valid as anyone else's. Nevertheless, should your opinion put him in a box he might never decide to climb out of?
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No better way to illustrate how God has a budget than you yourself having a budget of what you will look at when.
Thats because your God is more of the key chain figure type. Your Jesus is a dashboard bobble head.
Budget in = budget out.
Most non brainwashed people would prefer the Jesus Christ that has the unlimited version where the power is based upon the creator of the universe and not limited by self censorship of attention.
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Mike
FINITE MEASURE versus INFINITE
I realize that using the word budget is a real hot loaded word a real attention getter. I used it to get my own attention in my file cabinet with my paper folder for this topic. It was a very underused folder and it needed an attention getting name to avoid getting completely lost in my file cabinet but it communicates something to me and I haven’t been real clear about what that is, so then so I’m finally getting to that.
This is the beginning list I promised for the budget scriptures. It seems that dumping the whole list here would mean some items get less scrutiny, so I’ll do it in pieces.
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The reason budget is such a crazy attention getter is because we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets. But we also know that God doesn’t always get His way on the Earthly flesh realm that we live in and die in. The “Our Father” prayer that Jesus taught embodies this paradox, this anomaly, this “What is going on here?” the universe that we’re living in, where God’s will is rarely done on Earth.
Brand new to the Bible at age 22, I had never even seen a Bible in church, and never touched one, never read one. We had a book we called a Missal, which was Bible clippings, and prayers and passages from the Middle Ages, and a big mixture of a lot of things. But they looked just like Bibles with black covers and ribbons. But I had never read the Bible at all until I became a hippie, and then my working of it was very lame, and then it suddenly changed one day with my first twig fellowship.
One of the first things I noticed in the Bible was that a lot of times God just barely won the battles in the Old Testament. It was a struggle between God and Pharaoh in Egypt. It was a struggle between Archangel Michael and that angel who reported in Daniel 9. Then in everyday life, when God would win the struggle it was always just by a hair, or it seemed sometimes the timing was just at the last minute. These were just impressions I got from life, and I’m noticing at age 22, that it’s in the Bible too that God seemed to be somewhat limited in His dealings with people in the Old Testament.
And then it changed with Jesus.
John 3:34-35
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jesus was given spirit without measure, as opposed to the way things were done in the Old Testament were spirit was given with measure. Jesus got an infinite dose of spirit whatever that means.
Which brings us to the great principle. But more on that later.
Elisha said, “Leave me a double portion of your spirit…”
Elisha had a natural man mind that was enmity against God, and thought the things of God were foolishness, and had a natural reaction of fear to any kind of spiritual intervention by the true God. Daniel 9 talks about the reactions of the other people around Daniel to the angelic visit and how fearful they were about it, resembling the way wild animals are afraid of humans.
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2 Kings 2:9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “What can I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha answered, “May I receive a double portion of the prophetic spirit that energizes you.” 2:10 Elijah replied, “That’s a difficult request! If you see me taken from you, may it be so, but if you don’t, it will not happen.” [NET] Remarkably, the Bible records 28 miracles done by Elisha and 14 done by Elijah.
Elisha knew enough that he needed an interface with God so he wouldn’t be afraid, and he wouldn’t be ridiculing the things of God that he heard from Him, and that he could embrace things the way God saw things. A natural man mind can’t do this. It needs help. That’s what “spirit upon” was.
But what’s the most pertinent here is that Jesus got it without measure, while people before him got it with measure. It was limited; not infinite.
I have no idea what double spirit means, but I know God is saying something that’s getting my attention there, and I keep it in mind. why not triple? Why didn’t that prophet ask for triple? I don’t know but I do know we asked for double and that’s interesting to me.
The big question I get from all this is “Why is God using the idea of MEASURE here for spirit and spiritual things? Measure denotes limits, finite bounds to size. That’s what budgets are. Our cars do not have infinite gas tanks or batteries to run on. There is a FINITE MEASURE to how much gas or electricity we have to move our cars, and this applies to lots of other things. This is the stuff budgets are made of if a wise eye is aware of such finite measures.
*/*/*Sometimes and in some places and some scriptures the “budget” seems a little tight. If it states it in the scriptures then we know something, and we may not know at all, but at least we got SOME kind of info from the scripture.
Paul was being hassled by people a lot, and he prayed (with believing I’d think) for God to open His door to infinite resources and fix this hindering situation. I was stunned to read in my early twenties that God had this answer to Paul’s prayers for deliverance:
2 Corinthians 12:9 NIV
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
There seems to be a sense of glory in just squeaking by with a finite measure… or budget.This verse STILL gives me cause to pause, and think a little about the things going on behind the scenes spiritually with Jesus and the good angels, doing whatever they do. The verse tells me here it was a tight budget time for Paul at that time… unlike other times where Paul was on top of things, like in jail and singing in a friendly earthquake.
*/*/*Like that verse on Paul’s thorn in the flesh, this one in Garden of Gethsemane says to me that even for Jesus who had spirit without measure, there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.” Look how explicit this scene is here:
Mark 14:35,36
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
*/*/*Giving a measure indicates a turning away from the possibility of infinite.
Giving a measure indicates a budget if it includes a wise handler of the finite commodity.
A budget means a wise handling of a finite measure.
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Nathan_Jr
Well, I don't want you to spend more time here. I don't have any wants for you at all.
You aren't helping me. You aren't ministering to me. And I won't pretend or make believe that you are.
I won't pretend Santa Claus has a side hustle breeding Easter bunnies.
I won't pretend four crucified is accurate.
I won't pretend victor was a THE man of god.
I won't pretend a lie is the truth.
I have a vivid, healthy imagination, but I won't play these pretend games.
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T-Bone
1.)I don’t think “budget” is a hot loaded word – what got my attention was that it’s an inappropriate word for an idea you’re trying to shoehorn into a silly theory.
Part of why it seems like your forcing the concept into the Bible is that you’re using modern ideas to interpret ancient thought. (I get more into this in point 4 below modern vs ancient) . Reminds me of how wierwille erroneously taught about the Holy Spirit / holy spirit. Besides misconstruing of a separate entity ( a clone? )– distinct from the Holy Spirit – wierwille also used the car battery analogy to explain how this separate entity – holy spirit – powered the 9 manifestations. This gets into a whole other topic of how wrong wierwille got this – if someone’s interested in rehashing wierwille-doctrine and comparing that to biblical theology on the Holy Spirit, feel free to start a thread in doctrinal. I may or may not contribute, if I have the time – got other study and reading projects going on right now…anyway to summarize car battery, budgets, and mini-me-holy spirits modern mumbo jumbo gumbo to feed the elephant in the collaterals code name Operation Dumbo.
2.)why not give your audience a little more credit than that. I could be wrong, but that seems to me like you’re either bluffing [because you don’t have the whole list] or you’re afraid some items will not hold up well under scrutiny…have some respect for the intelligence of others and let them choose from the entire menu of your post(s).
It does take some courage to put yourself out there – because you’re opening yourself up – becoming vulnerable. But that helps to develop a rapport with your audience – and with the feedback loop of Grease Spot Café – that would be in keeping with your desire for brainstorming.
Another impractical thing about doing this in pieces is that you lose continuity. That’s probably one of the most obfuscating and deceitful things about PFAL – it was wierwille’s piecemeal attempt to cobble together a weird theology. If you follow that pattern you’ll probably confuse others and lose their attention.
3.)already explained why “budget” got my attention [see point 1]. I can’t speak for others – but I will challenge your idea that “we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets.”
just reflecting on that for my journey so far, it might best be described as undulating waves on a self-awareness oscilloscope . Graphically displaying over a lifetime the rise-and-fall-and-rise-and-fall-etcetera of tides - the ebb and flow of what I think I know about God [probably some childish thoughts, clumsy conclusions, false ideas, fantasies, and sci-fi stuff] along with the undercurrents and undertow of my belief system, good & bad habits, sins & imperfections…since there is no constant reference point I don’t think I’m in a position to determine if God is unlimited – or for that matter even knowing what that means.
BUT – your mention of how people might intuitively know something reminded me of a cool book Rocky mentioned earlier A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong and in response to his recommendation I chimed in with The Case for God by Karen Armstrong – you might enjoy checking those 2 books out…this stuff gets into philosophy of religion and what drives people to look inward and outward…
…the more I think about it getting into alternate sources of inspiration might do you a world of good – since it seems to me you either have a wierwille/PFAL-centric frame of thought or extrapolate out from a wierwille/PFAL a position of central prominence or importance…if you’re interested in broadening your horizons I could recommend a few systematic theologies and stuff on hermeneutics. I’m not suggesting that any reference is perfect – but the ones I favor stand up to close scrutiny and present a coherent organization of the important tenets of Christianity.
4.A)modern vs ancient…using modern concepts to interpret ancient ideas. (a follow-up of point 1) I believe you are probably misinterpreting John 3:34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaiming the Father’s own message]; for God gives the [gift of the] Spirit without measure [generously and boundlessly]! For so reads the Amplified version. Some info from NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible , The NET Bible: Second Beta Edition Edition , and NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture speak of an idiom referencing Leviticus Rabbah which is a homiletic midrash to the Biblical book of Leviticus, and thou online commentaries offer various interpretations most reflect the same idea of the Messiah’s unique stature as the Son of God. Perhaps in our modern way of thinking when you measure something, you’re gauging quantity – but from what I gather of the culturalisms, the idiom simply conveys the concept of Jesus Christ being unique and being authenticated by the Holy Spirit as the Messiah:
Expositor's Greek Testament
John 3:34. The reason assigned for the truth and trustworthiness of Christ’s words is scarcely the reason we expect: οὐ γὰρ … Πνεῦμα. John has told us that Christ is to be believed because He testifies of what He hath seen and heard: now, because the Spirit is given without measure to Him. The meaning of the clause is contested. The omission of ὁ θεός does not materially affect the sense, for ὁ θεός would naturally be supplied as the nominative to δίδωσι from τοῦ θεοῦ of the preceding clause. There are four interpretations. (1) Augustine, Calvin, Lücke, Alford, suppose the clause means that God, instead of giving occasional and limited supplies of the Spirit as had been given to the prophets, gives to Christ the fulness of the Spirit. (2) Meyer thinks that the primary reference is not to Christ but that the statement is general, that God gives the Spirit freely and abundantly, and does thus dispense it to Christ. (3) Westcott, following Cyril, makes Christ the subject and understands the clause as meaning that He proves His Messiahship by giving the Spirit without measure. (4) Godet makes τὸ πνεῦμα the subject, not the object, and supposes the meaning to be that the Spirit gives to Christ the words of God without measure. The words of John 3:35 seem to weigh in favour of the rendering of A.V[47]: “God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him”. The R.V[48] is ambiguous. ἐκ μέτρου, out of a measure, or, by measure, that is, sparingly. So ἐν μέτρῳ in Ezekiel 4:11. Wetstein quotes: “R. Achan dixit: etiam Spiritus S. non habitavit super Prophetas nisi mensura quadam: quidam enim librum unum, quidam duos vaticiniorum ediderunt”. The Spirit was given to Jesus not in the restricted and occasional manner in which it had been given to the O.T. prophets, but wholly, fully, constantly. It was by this Spirit His human nature was enlightened and guided to speak things divine; and this Spirit, interposed as it were between the Logos and the human nature of Christ, was as little cumbrous in its operation or perceptible in consciousness as our breath which is interposed between the thinking mind and the words which utter it.
End of excerpt from Bible Hub John 3:34 Commentaries
4.B)too big a topic to rehash here
Please review OldSkool's thread "Great Principle Whitewashed?"_Sunday Jan. 1st 2023, 10:00AM
5.) please review point 4 about John 4:34.
6.)obviously! Please review point 4.
7.)please review point 4.
8.)Knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgment, the manner in which information is collected and used....Carl Sagan …yes, we do get SOME kind of info from the scriptures – but HOW do we as modern readers interpret an ancient book – written over a span of some 1500 years by various writers holding various worldviews, in various cultures, using various languages?
Please review point 4 and try to draw some LOGICAL conclusions, and maybe learn more about the art and science of hermeneutics to better understand the ancient writers’ frame of mind instead of twisting stuff to fit into a template wierwille taught us.
9.) Hermeneutics is a wise handling of Scripture and other thought provoking texts…it’s the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, as well as philosophical texts. Hermeneutics is more than interpretative principles or methods used when immediate comprehension fails and includes the art of understanding and communication.
Edited by T-Boneediting on a budget during this fiscal thread
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Mike
That looks familiar, somehow.
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OldSkool
Man, Mike, I dont know how in the world you even come up with this stuff. I would put forth that there are millions of people doing God's will on Earth. My Lord dude...get out of wierwille land.
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So_crates
But, if your "two doors" theory is true, there is as many people doing God's will as are doing Satan's will. The door opens and angels and devil spirits rush through, remember?
And, lest we forget, the real reason for these 39 pages of excuses: to cover Saint Vic's impotence in Iiving up to his own standard of "signs, miracles, and wonders following the man of God like a a tail follows a dog."
Mike, you remind me of the Catholic church making long exotic calculations to explain planets retrograde motion because they believed Earth was the center of the universe. Just as they refused to see the simple truth that the Earth revolved around the sun, you refuse to see the simple truth Saint Vic was a fake.
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Mike
What did Jesus mean by teaching us that prayer?
Sure, sometimes people do God's will.
But all sin, sickness, and death are against God's will.
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Rocky
It is MYTH, not fact. Mike is exercising his imagination. I don't criticize him doing so. But it's important for readers to put it in a reasonable perspective.
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Charity
Mike, I personally think this is the lowest I've seen you go. You have taken the most stressful time in Jesus' life according to Luke 22:44 ("And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.") - a time when he puts aside his own will to not be tortured and crucified in the horrific way the OT prophesied it would happen and instead finds the strength in his relationship with His Father to carry out God's will for you (John 3:16,17) and you degrade it with a statement such as "there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”
Do you even care what God your heavenly Father and Jesus your Savior and Redeemer must think and feel about what you wrote?
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OldSkool
Teaching us to pray in like manner. Read what is written and you will have your answer.
There are millions and millions of people doing God's will, why do you come off so faithless? Is this the fruit of wierwillism?
All sin, sickness, and death are absolutely covered in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. What, because God chose a period of grace to give all who may come to Christ an opportunity for salvation that he is lack concerning his promises? It's covered in Christ and we have a downpayment in us of new, uncorruptable bodies in the future thus no sin, sickness, and eventually death. Again, read what is written and spend time building your faith in actual scripture.
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OldSkool
Mike will never get it because he is stll stumbling at Christ, the rock of offence because he's rejected the real Jesus Christ in favor of an absent myth made up by a creep that wanted to sit as the head of the body so badly that he made a corporation where he could live out his delusions of granduer. Wierwille and the way international.
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Charity
Where's that vomiting emoji when you need one?
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Nathan_Jr
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Rocky
I'm not sure you can factually perceive any reason Mike "will never get it."
Yes, Mike is dealing in myth. But it appears to me Mike expands wierwille's mythology by extrapolating verses he's now focused on with his (Mike's) imaginative interpretation of something he has no way of knowing except by way of his own imagination.
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Mike
Continuing to look at the idea and not the invalid criticisms, I ask you this:
WHY would God put the idea of limited measure in where spiritual commodities are being talked about?
We have no way of performing such measurements, nor understand what they mean.... YET God outs that idea of limited measure of spirit in the scriptures.
I am trying to understand what He is telling us here.
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Mike
Nice try, but you are a rank amateur at conjuring up fear and condemnation.
Here's a hint: even if you get skilled at this, it only works on those who have not made the Word the guiding light of their life.
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Rocky
Here's an excerpt from Karen Armstrong's A Short History of Myth:
"Science would put an end to human misery and save the world. Nothing must impede this development. All the myths of the world should be subjected to stringent criticism and if they contradicted proven facts they must be cast aside. Reason alone gave access to this truth. The first scientist to fully absorb this empirical ethos was probably Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727), who synthesized the findings of his predecessors by a rigorous use of evolving scientific disciplines of experiment and deduction. He believed he was bringing his fellow human beings unprecedented and certain information about the world, that the cosmic system he had discovered coincided completely with the facts, and that it proved the existence of God, the great 'Mechanick' who brought the intricate machine of the universe into being.
"But this total immersion in logos [reason] made it impossible for Newton to appreciate the more intuitive forms of perception..."
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Rocky
Mike, I appreciate how you've begun to learn to own your role in the communication processes at work in online forums, but you still seem to have plenty of room for improvement because you still haven't forsaken name calling.
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Mike
Rocky, why is it that you can't see that my calling Charity a rank amateur at evil is a compliment to her?
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Rocky
How is it that you try to avoid the message I gave you by deflection employing fallacy? Whether you intended your name calling as a compliment or not is neither apparent in your words (in the original statement) nor is it relevant to what I posed to you.
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OldSkool
No, but I can have my opinion based on reading a few thousand pages of his point of view. I think his own words are factual enough to form an opinion. Yeah they are like...but we all have one.
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OldSkool
My name isnt rocky but name calling in a passive agressive manner is highly inappropriate. But so it goes with wierwille's followers...same as wierwille...when you get called on the carpet you result to bullying tactics. So keep showing your true colors.
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Rocky
You certainly can have an opinion, which is just as valid as anyone else's. Nevertheless, should your opinion put him in a box he might never decide to climb out of?
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