My analysis is simply using definitions as given and actually respecting what is written and not trying to redefine terms and wrest scripture into compliance.
Did you at least re-read to see I did NOT heal my aluminum block, and that I limped into New Knoxville on 3 cylinders, and had to give up the car. I tried and failed.
Then, the one sentence that may have thrown you off was where I jokingly said that it was a miracle that I made it to N,K. Nothing miraculous happened; I was wrongly applying what we were taught in the class. I was applying a TVT to my car and it BACKFIRED!
Did you miss that pun also? Please re-read with a fresh mind. You were reading hooky pook in there much more than I wrote into it.
I have worked it for many years.
I heard a Pistis Seminar on tape in 1973.
VPW earned my respect in his written works, from me working them carefully since 1971, even before I took the class.
Even over what is plainly written in scripture. Your endless genealogies do not make you the wiser.
In the gospels the miracles listed show that Jesus is the long awaited messiah and they show God's willingness to enter into a relationship with his children where he is their Father and willing to meet all their needs even if its miracalous. The emphasis is faith in God and taking action on that faith in God. Scripture supports what I am saying as Im not blabbering some goofy research project. Im literally repeating back you what is written and using definitions from a standard lexicon. Since that disagrees with wierwille it should get your attention that either God is wrong or wierwille is wrong...but you chose wierwille. Because you heard something in 73 doesnt mean its accurate. The Bible is older than 73 and still says the same things.
Did you at least re-read to see I did NOT heal my aluminum block, and that I limped into New Knoxville on 3 cylinders, and had to give up the car. I tried and failed.
Then, the one sentence that may have thrown you off was where I jokingly said that it was a miracle that I made it to N,K. Nothing miraculous happened; I was wrongly applying what we were taught in the class. I was applying a TVT to my car and it BACKFIRED!
Did you miss that pun also? Please re-read with a fresh mind. You were reading hooky pook in there much more than I wrote into it.
I understood that from the beginning. You circled around and doubled down stating that the law of believing works when we focus on scripture. BS, it absolutely does not. Quoting again from a paper I wrote a few years ago.
My son was born with several serious health issues and nearly died the first week of his life. During this time I was willing to stake my life and well-being on the practices taught via the Law of Believing. While there were notable miracles that God wrought during this time, I believed those miracles were a result of my positive confession. I was very proud and that’s never good because pride goes before a fall and fall I did. As time went on my son’s health stabilized and it became very apparent to me that his medical conditions were going to be a lifelong struggle. For me this was unacceptable. So I doubled down on my confession and my positive thoughts; my then-spouse was fully on board. We enlisted the help of others who believed as we did so they could have their “believing focused” on what we wanted to happen. We spent several years trying to believe for our son’s health problems to disappear. I was very demanding that my desired reality come to pass as I commanded; I even had scriptures wrapped around my actions at every turn. Well, that desired reality never came to pass because all of my confidence was in my believing action and the believing action of others, and frankly life just doesn’t work this way. God was merely a passive observer who had already given everything and I simply could not reach the cookie jar. I was unable to accept reality because that would have been a negative confession.
Eventually I fell off into a very dark place mentally and emotionally. I was filled with self-condemnation/hatred because I could not believe big enough to cure my child. The fact that I was unable to attain my confession intensified my self-condemnation as I spiraled off into a deep depression. Depression eventually led me to alcohol abuse which led to an entirely new set of problems. My pride kept me from humbling myself before God and The Lord Jesus Christ and accepting their help. I was stuck on a spin cycle of failure and self condemnation that only ceased when I turned to God with a ready mind to accept the truth. I do want to add that my son is very healthy today, thanks to God’s many mighty works in his life, combined with a very generous and compassionate organ donor. Yes, God loves us in spite of our failures. God knows that we are but dust; his grace and mercy endure forever just as we will too. But this illustration begs the question where was the failure? Was it doctrinal error in The Law of Believing? Or was it me who just couldn’t muster the believing action to make it work?
I think I see how some may have mis-read my WoW car trip story, especially if they read it fast. I put a red font LATE EDIT sign to help skim reading. Here is how the amended story looks now:
I've been there and done that myself; sometimes spectacularly.
When I was going out WoW in 1982 my car had an aluminum head that had cracked, but I got if fixed “semi-miraculously” and was off in running a cross country trip from San Diego to Ohio.
LATE EDIT: I was joking about "semi-miraculous"
But my new head cracked in the Colorado Rockies!
I could tell, because I had to limp on a blown head for weeks prior to its fixing in San Diego, and I was now limping again.
But I was answering a call from God!
I had resisted acting on the WoW challenge for 11 years, but now finally I am giving God a year of my time and heart. I had put my business in the hands of 5 grads, with verbal promises they would give it all back to me on my return.
No cracked aluminum head was not going to stop this Ambassador for Christ! No sirree!
I started picturing in my mind the aluminum poles that hold up the huge Rock of Ages tents, and how strong that metallic bond was. I was a Physics major, and it was easy to imagine my cracked head “healing” up by God’s power. It would be so easy to work those atoms around, bring in a few needed neutrons or protons, or scoop up aluminum from the road dust…. I was into “the believing images of victory” that we all were galloping with in those days.
As I limped up each hill I’d make these mental images stronger to defy the wobbles in the my car engine’s strength. As I coasted down the next hill I’d be thanking God for that head to he healed on climbing the next hill…. and the next… and the next…
Arrrrggghhhh!! It was mentally exhausting.
It was a miracle I made it to Ohio in time, though !!!
LATE EDIT: I was joking about that miracle arrival.
My diagnosis was right; cracked head. I had a sick feeling when I saw the aluminum poles and how strong they looked at the big tent.
It took another 6 years before I could figure out what went wrong.
I understood that from the beginning. You circled around and doubled down stating that the law of believing works when we focus on scripture. BS, it absolutely does not. Quoting again from a paper I wrote a few years ago.
My son was born with several serious health issues and nearly died the first week of his life. During this time I was willing to stake my life and well-being on the practices taught via the Law of Believing. While there were notable miracles that God wrought during this time, I believed those miracles were a result of my positive confession. I was very proud and that’s never good because pride goes before a fall and fall I did. As time went on my son’s health stabilized and it became very apparent to me that his medical conditions were going to be a lifelong struggle. For me this was unacceptable. So I doubled down on my confession and my positive thoughts; my then-spouse was fully on board. We enlisted the help of others who believed as we did so they could have their “believing focused” on what we wanted to happen. We spent several years trying to believe for our son’s health problems to disappear. I was very demanding that my desired reality come to pass as I commanded; I even had scriptures wrapped around my actions at every turn. Well, that desired reality never came to pass because all of my confidence was in my believing action and the believing action of others, and frankly life just doesn’t work this way. God was merely a passive observer who had already given everything and I simply could not reach the cookie jar. I was unable to accept reality because that would have been a negative confession.
Eventually I fell off into a very dark place mentally and emotionally. I was filled with self-condemnation/hatred because I could not believe big enough to cure my child. The fact that I was unable to attain my confession intensified my self-condemnation as I spiraled off into a deep depression. Depression eventually led me to alcohol abuse which led to an entirely new set of problems. My pride kept me from humbling myself before God and The Lord Jesus Christ and accepting their help. I was stuck on a spin cycle of failure and self condemnation that only ceased when I turned to God with a ready mind to accept the truth. I do want to add that my son is very healthy today, thanks to God’s many mighty works in his life, combined with a very generous and compassionate organ donor. Yes, God loves us in spite of our failures. God knows that we are but dust; his grace and mercy endure forever just as we will too. But this illustration begs the question where was the failure? Was it doctrinal error in The Law of Believing? Or was it me who just couldn’t muster the believing action to make it work?
I have read this story before and I feel for you.
Out of respect to your son and your very delicate situation, I will not comment now, but read it again very carefully, and pray for an good way to respond or not to respond at all.
Out of respect to your son and your very delicate situation, I will not comment now, but read it again very carefully, and pray for an good way to respond or not to respond at all.
As far as bibical verses go, I guess "Beloved I wish above all you prosper and be in good health, even as thy soul prospereth" doesn't count, right?
Out of respect to your son and your very delicate situation, I will not comment now, but read it again very carefully, and pray for an good way to respond or not to respond at all.
Understand that I wouldnt put it out there in an article if I was still sensitive over the illustration. However, I do appreciate you caring and I also appreciate your prayers and heart. I know we banter back and forth on GSC in topics were emotionally invested in but I dont consider you and enemy but a brother in Christ. Peace!
BTW - that illustration spans a two year period of trying and re-trying and doubling back again and trying once again. I now live the way I have been talking about. Trust in God to fulfill his promises. That works.
Understand that I wouldnt put it out there in an article if I was still sensitive over the illustration. However, I do appreciate you caring and I also appreciate your prayers and heart. I know we banter back and forth on GSC in topics were emotionally invested in but I dont consider you and enemy but a brother in Christ. Peace!
BTW - that illustration spans a two year period of trying and re-trying and doubling back again and trying once again. I now live the way I have been talking about. Trust in God to fulfill his promises. That works.
Thanks for that. Thanks much. I think much the same.
I really do harbor the most loving of deep love for everyone here.
I never have said this, but have often thought it, the main reason I come here is I love you folks, all of you.
I fell into a long-suit early in my ministry life of helping new grads understand the class better. I just wanted to love and that was one way. Some people made coffee, I tried to figure out what was bugging new grads about the new material. I watched like a hawk all the new students as they SIT in Session 12.
At first it just fell into my lap; like they'd ask me. Eventually I realized it was a calling, and a duty. If God steered so many great teachers in my path (not merely vpw), so that my deepest questions got answered, then it was my duty to pass them on. Kinda like an echo of the 1942 promise/deal.
Anyway, thanks again for the Brotherly Heads Up.
I have to admit, sometimes I totally forget this Jesus commanded perspective, that we love one another. I am thankful for when I remember, though.
Oh, well, why didn't you say so in the first place?
Because I forgot most of the material. LoL
But I remember it all fitting nicely. I marked all the pistis spots in my Wide Margin, and still have it.
Did you read all those Gospel verses that I posted on page 8, about 3/4 down the page? As I was assembling that, I was recalling working with all them almost 50 years ago.
Trust and believing are almost the same idea.
I wish he had explained it better, but VPW's handling of "faith" was awkward.
AI think his vocabulary was a little "bent" by being in the ministry and very churchy, where in modern English circles "faith" has a special sound, a charisma, just from how people handle it. But how they assign it in Bible translations is pretty hodge podge.
If I had my way all the places where VPW prefers the word faith, I understand him to mean "special believing" but he never clearly or explicitly said it that way. I don't think the collaterals ever get into this much, but I should check someday.
I think VPW's use of the word faith communicated well to him and his vocabulary, but to the rest of us it was confusing. I distinctly remember having to put on my Sherlock Holmes hat to understand this, and I had a hard time ever explaining it to anyone.
Faith is a super buzz word in ministry circles, artificially so, and only in modern English and I think in SOME SCRIPTURES it should be translated or footnoted that way.
Special believing or super believing seems interchangeable to me with faith, but even to my Western Ears, that sounds almost blasphemous. I have learned to resist it.
The main idea in the word "believing" is trusting a promise enough to bet your life on it.
As far as bibical verses go, I guess "Beloved I wish above all you prosper and be in good health, even as thy soul prospereth" doesn't count, right?
I am going to wing it fast, because it is Saturday night and I've got dance fever. We can get back to it.
This may apply to OldSkool, also.
My impression is that believing the promises, like 3 John 1:2, is an everyday thing for overall health, and normal healing the immune system supplies.
But sometimes a medical condition can get way out of normal healing mechanisms already in place.
In other words claiming that 3 John 1:2 promise daily by believing is one key health protector for maintaining good internal chemistry and fighting off normal diseases. But it may not be enough to work a healing when things go over the edge, so to speak. This would be something in the miraculous category.
Nutshell: Normal health and healing comes from believing scripture promises.
Miraculous healing comes from "special believing" a direct revelation from God.
By "special believing" there I mean the manifestation of believing, or possibly labeled "believing-faith" by VPW?
(Physically) Healthy atheists? (rhetorical question) I neither request, nor expect response.
Yes. We were taught that all healings are from God, even normal immune system healings because He designed the human body. The rain falls on the just and the unjust, and same with healings, normal healing that is. Miraculous is different.
(Physically) Healthy atheists? (rhetorical question) I neither request, nor expect response.
Oh. I think I missed some of what you meant.
Atheists can believe their immune system (and the Medical system) will work, and not have to use scriptural promises. But it would work better for them if they did. Remember, this part is a daily persistent thing, and it has ups and downs. Sometimes it challenges us to get a normal healing. With scriptures that can be a less challenging healing.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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OldSkool
Of course you dont it runs contrary to wierwille.
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OldSkool
My analysis is simply using definitions as given and actually respecting what is written and not trying to redefine terms and wrest scripture into compliance.
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Mike
I have worked it for many years.
I heard a Pistis Seminar on tape in 1973.
VPW earned my respect in his written works, from me working them carefully since 1971, even before I took the class.
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Nathan_Jr
Faith = trust, letting go, surrender
Belief = clutching, clinging, adhering
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Mike
Did you at least re-read to see I did NOT heal my aluminum block, and that I limped into New Knoxville on 3 cylinders, and had to give up the car. I tried and failed.
Then, the one sentence that may have thrown you off was where I jokingly said that it was a miracle that I made it to N,K. Nothing miraculous happened; I was wrongly applying what we were taught in the class. I was applying a TVT to my car and it BACKFIRED!
Did you miss that pun also? Please re-read with a fresh mind. You were reading hooky pook in there much more than I wrote into it.
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OldSkool
Even over what is plainly written in scripture. Your endless genealogies do not make you the wiser.
In the gospels the miracles listed show that Jesus is the long awaited messiah and they show God's willingness to enter into a relationship with his children where he is their Father and willing to meet all their needs even if its miracalous. The emphasis is faith in God and taking action on that faith in God. Scripture supports what I am saying as Im not blabbering some goofy research project. Im literally repeating back you what is written and using definitions from a standard lexicon. Since that disagrees with wierwille it should get your attention that either God is wrong or wierwille is wrong...but you chose wierwille. Because you heard something in 73 doesnt mean its accurate. The Bible is older than 73 and still says the same things.
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OldSkool
I understood that from the beginning. You circled around and doubled down stating that the law of believing works when we focus on scripture. BS, it absolutely does not. Quoting again from a paper I wrote a few years ago.
My son was born with several serious health issues and nearly died the first week of his life. During this time I was willing to stake my life and well-being on the practices taught via the Law of Believing. While there were notable miracles that God wrought during this time, I believed those miracles were a result of my positive confession. I was very proud and that’s never good because pride goes before a fall and fall I did. As time went on my son’s health stabilized and it became very apparent to me that his medical conditions were going to be a lifelong struggle. For me this was unacceptable. So I doubled down on my confession and my positive thoughts; my then-spouse was fully on board. We enlisted the help of others who believed as we did so they could have their “believing focused” on what we wanted to happen. We spent several years trying to believe for our son’s health problems to disappear. I was very demanding that my desired reality come to pass as I commanded; I even had scriptures wrapped around my actions at every turn. Well, that desired reality never came to pass because all of my confidence was in my believing action and the believing action of others, and frankly life just doesn’t work this way. God was merely a passive observer who had already given everything and I simply could not reach the cookie jar. I was unable to accept reality because that would have been a negative confession.
Eventually I fell off into a very dark place mentally and emotionally. I was filled with self-condemnation/hatred because I could not believe big enough to cure my child. The fact that I was unable to attain my confession intensified my self-condemnation as I spiraled off into a deep depression. Depression eventually led me to alcohol abuse which led to an entirely new set of problems. My pride kept me from humbling myself before God and The Lord Jesus Christ and accepting their help. I was stuck on a spin cycle of failure and self condemnation that only ceased when I turned to God with a ready mind to accept the truth. I do want to add that my son is very healthy today, thanks to God’s many mighty works in his life, combined with a very generous and compassionate organ donor. Yes, God loves us in spite of our failures. God knows that we are but dust; his grace and mercy endure forever just as we will too. But this illustration begs the question where was the failure? Was it doctrinal error in The Law of Believing? Or was it me who just couldn’t muster the believing action to make it work?
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Mike
I think I see how some may have mis-read my WoW car trip story, especially if they read it fast. I put a red font LATE EDIT sign to help skim reading. Here is how the amended story looks now:
I've been there and done that myself; sometimes spectacularly.
When I was going out WoW in 1982 my car had an aluminum head that had cracked, but I got if fixed “semi-miraculously” and was off in running a cross country trip from San Diego to Ohio.
LATE EDIT: I was joking about "semi-miraculous"
But my new head cracked in the Colorado Rockies!
I could tell, because I had to limp on a blown head for weeks prior to its fixing in San Diego, and I was now limping again.
But I was answering a call from God!
I had resisted acting on the WoW challenge for 11 years, but now finally I am giving God a year of my time and heart. I had put my business in the hands of 5 grads, with verbal promises they would give it all back to me on my return.
No cracked aluminum head was not going to stop this Ambassador for Christ! No sirree!
I started picturing in my mind the aluminum poles that hold up the huge Rock of Ages tents, and how strong that metallic bond was. I was a Physics major, and it was easy to imagine my cracked head “healing” up by God’s power. It would be so easy to work those atoms around, bring in a few needed neutrons or protons, or scoop up aluminum from the road dust…. I was into “the believing images of victory” that we all were galloping with in those days.
As I limped up each hill I’d make these mental images stronger to defy the wobbles in the my car engine’s strength. As I coasted down the next hill I’d be thanking God for that head to he healed on climbing the next hill…. and the next… and the next…
Arrrrggghhhh!! It was mentally exhausting.
It was a miracle I made it to Ohio in time, though !!!
LATE EDIT: I was joking about that miracle arrival.
My diagnosis was right; cracked head. I had a sick feeling when I saw the aluminum poles and how strong they looked at the big tent.
It took another 6 years before I could figure out what went wrong.
Can you see it?
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Mike
I have read this story before and I feel for you.
Out of respect to your son and your very delicate situation, I will not comment now, but read it again very carefully, and pray for an good way to respond or not to respond at all.
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So_crates
As far as bibical verses go, I guess "Beloved I wish above all you prosper and be in good health, even as thy soul prospereth" doesn't count, right?
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OldSkool
Understand that I wouldnt put it out there in an article if I was still sensitive over the illustration. However, I do appreciate you caring and I also appreciate your prayers and heart. I know we banter back and forth on GSC in topics were emotionally invested in but I dont consider you and enemy but a brother in Christ. Peace!
BTW - that illustration spans a two year period of trying and re-trying and doubling back again and trying once again. I now live the way I have been talking about. Trust in God to fulfill his promises. That works.
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Mike
Thanks for that. Thanks much. I think much the same.
I really do harbor the most loving of deep love for everyone here.
I never have said this, but have often thought it, the main reason I come here is I love you folks, all of you.
I fell into a long-suit early in my ministry life of helping new grads understand the class better. I just wanted to love and that was one way. Some people made coffee, I tried to figure out what was bugging new grads about the new material. I watched like a hawk all the new students as they SIT in Session 12.
At first it just fell into my lap; like they'd ask me. Eventually I realized it was a calling, and a duty. If God steered so many great teachers in my path (not merely vpw), so that my deepest questions got answered, then it was my duty to pass them on. Kinda like an echo of the 1942 promise/deal.
Anyway, thanks again for the Brotherly Heads Up.
I have to admit, sometimes I totally forget this Jesus commanded perspective, that we love one another. I am thankful for when I remember, though.
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waysider
Oh, well, why didn't you say so in the first place?
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Mike
Because I forgot most of the material. LoL
But I remember it all fitting nicely. I marked all the pistis spots in my Wide Margin, and still have it.
Did you read all those Gospel verses that I posted on page 8, about 3/4 down the page? As I was assembling that, I was recalling working with all them almost 50 years ago.
Trust and believing are almost the same idea.
I wish he had explained it better, but VPW's handling of "faith" was awkward.
AI think his vocabulary was a little "bent" by being in the ministry and very churchy, where in modern English circles "faith" has a special sound, a charisma, just from how people handle it. But how they assign it in Bible translations is pretty hodge podge.
If I had my way all the places where VPW prefers the word faith, I understand him to mean "special believing" but he never clearly or explicitly said it that way. I don't think the collaterals ever get into this much, but I should check someday.
I think VPW's use of the word faith communicated well to him and his vocabulary, but to the rest of us it was confusing. I distinctly remember having to put on my Sherlock Holmes hat to understand this, and I had a hard time ever explaining it to anyone.
Faith is a super buzz word in ministry circles, artificially so, and only in modern English and I think in SOME SCRIPTURES it should be translated or footnoted that way.
Special believing or super believing seems interchangeable to me with faith, but even to my Western Ears, that sounds almost blasphemous. I have learned to resist it.
The main idea in the word "believing" is
trusting a promise enough to bet your life on it.
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So_crates
Really?!
I did and I face planted.
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waysider
Do tell.
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Mike
I am going to wing it fast, because it is Saturday night and I've got dance fever. We can get back to it.
This may apply to OldSkool, also.
My impression is that believing the promises, like 3 John 1:2, is an everyday thing for overall health, and normal healing the immune system supplies.
But sometimes a medical condition can get way out of normal healing mechanisms already in place.
In other words claiming that 3 John 1:2 promise daily by believing is one key health protector for maintaining good internal chemistry and fighting off normal diseases. But it may not be enough to work a healing when things go over the edge, so to speak. This would be something in the miraculous category.
Nutshell:
Normal health and healing comes from believing scripture promises.
Miraculous healing comes from "special believing" a direct revelation from God.
By "special believing" there I mean the manifestation of believing, or possibly labeled "believing-faith" by VPW?
That is the best I understand it so far.
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Mike
Was that a scripture you believed?
Or was it a direct revelation from God?
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Rocky
Oh really?
(Physically) Healthy atheists? (rhetorical question) I neither request, nor expect response.
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Mike
Yes. We were taught that all healings are from God, even normal immune system healings because He designed the human body. The rain falls on the just and the unjust, and same with healings, normal healing that is. Miraculous is different.
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Mike
Oh. I think I missed some of what you meant.
Atheists can believe their immune system (and the Medical system) will work, and not have to use scriptural promises. But it would work better for them if they did. Remember, this part is a daily persistent thing, and it has ups and downs. Sometimes it challenges us to get a normal healing. With scriptures that can be a less challenging healing.
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So_crates
I posted it from 3 John.
First, you didn't address the prosperity part, even though I boldfaced it.
Second, you're changing the definition of what's written in the text to shoehorn your inability to see that the law of believing is bunk.
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waysider
You're paraphrasing the Advanced Class.
(There is no scriptural basis for this.)
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So_crates
Or how about "I am come that they might have life and have it more abundantly"?
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