The strange part is that you are blind to the bias you are bringing to the analysis.
The pot here is having a delightful conversation with the kettle. You see, when I disagree with you, it's because of my sh-t-colored bias. But when I agree it's because I've opened my mind to the possibilities of what Scripture really means underneath those pesky little words it actually uses.
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its easy to be critical of everything and to adopt a critical bias. But even with humans if you approach them with a critical bias it completely affects how you perceive them.
This producesa new type of sunglasses- the poop tinted ones.
I'm curious to know what color glasses you wear when you approach the Book of Mormon and the Q'uran.
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There is no “cosmology” of Genesis that is something you are reading into it.
Since you've established in this post and several that precede it that this kind of tone is fair game, I would like to point out that this one sentence (well, comma splice, anyway) may well be the stupidest, most refutable piece of dung you've ever written on this site, and that's saying a lot. [Sorry: YOU brought dung into the conversation as an acceptable reference to my point of view, so it's only fair].
Of course, there IS a cosmology in Genesis 1 that is actually laid out in Genesis 1. Had you taken a deeper look into the history of the Semitic people and the ancient Canaanites, you would see quite clearly that Genesis 1 reflects an actual ancient belief about what people once thought the universe looked like. Of course, you can't DO that without some degree of humility and acknowledgment of the possibility that you MIGHT be WRONG about something, so I wouldn't expect you to undertake this honest kind of inquiry that you have labeled "poop" to absolve yourself of the responsibility to read a f-ing book or two.
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It is an origin story with a lot of symbolic elements.
The ONLY reason those elements are considered symbolic today is that they have been disproven literally. There is no indication that the writers [plural: there was more than one and likely none of them were named Moses] meant anything other than what they said: that the sky is a giant glass wall holding back an ocean above us, and that there are windows in that wall that were opened to create the flood in Noah's day.
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Likewise those who think that Jesus Christ was mentally abusing children he was healing or that somebody made up all those stories completely is delusional.
It would be delusional to say he was mentally abusing children. But to say someone made up all the stories? Of COURSE someone made up those stories! They're preposterous. But if YOU want to say the stories are TRUE, then it is incumbent on you to document the historicity of each account. You can't even tell me who wrote which gospel! Now, you can call it "delusional" to believe the stories are all made up, but you do that while at the same time dismissing all the miracles of the Q'uran and the Book of Mormon as delusional, and you do so without even making room for the faintest of possibilities that they might be a "record" of something that actually happened.
Funny how that works. It's okay to be dismissive of the miracle stories of other holy books, but not of your own. It's almost like, what's the word Jesus [allegedly] used all the time? Hypocrisy?
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They are ignoring probabilities of any kind discounting inaccuracies introduced by centuries of hand copying and just making up their own narrative completely and saying unless you “prove me wrong” what I say is true.
That is LITERALLY what you are doing. You say these stories are true unless we prove them wrong, absolving yourself again of the responsibility in dialectics to prove the affirmative claims you are making. Meanwhile, again, you ignore "probabilities of any kind" that you are wrong to dismiss the miracle claims of other religions. Why is it okay for you to do that to every other religion but it's not okay for us to do that to yours?
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I can read “The Epic of Gilgamesh” and get out of it what it has - the culture of a story passed down by bards, rhyming verse, some elements of the world they lived in, etc.
Yes, but the Epic of Gilgamesh does not hold itself to be the Word of God, and its history is not put forth as a real accounting of events. Also, Spider-Man does not live, even though his comics say he lives in New York City. The fact that a story is placed in a real place, even at a real time, and its characters interact with real people, does not make the story true. Gilgamesh is fiction and never intended to be treated otherwise.
Genesis didn't become symbolism until skepticism exposed it as ahistorical.
Quote
It’s only with the inflated egos like I see on this thread that think they are all the center of the universe…
Ok,, number one, the f'ing namecalling has to stop. I let you get away with it before and I regret it. Second, we LITERALLY do not believe we are the center of the universe. You have us confused with Christians, who actually believe the purpose of the universe is earth, the purpose of the earth is life, the purpose of life is man and the purpose of man is God. Actual Chrisitan dogma. The flipping NERVE to accuse us of that which you do!
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It’s only with the inflated egos like I see on this thread that think they are all the center of the universe that every such literary work must be accompanied by their version of scientific proof.
The second stupidest thing you've written in this post, but probably only fourth or fifth stupidest overall on GSC.
Quote
You’re not that important to require or demand any such thing.
So it's my responsibility to accept that you are right, period, shut up. Right? Because that's what you are actually saying. "Shut up and accept my views or, if you don't, YOU'RE arrogant."
GET
YOURSELF
Quote
The scriptures say of themself they are not valuable without a positive outlook toward them. Your attitude towards a Creator really determines what unlocks for you in scripture. If He doesn’t exist then your bias is to tear down everything attached and pointing out inconsistencies to invalidate any value in His messages.
This is magical thinking, not reason. The whole POINT of using WORDS as the means of communication is reason, our ability to discern meaning from words. The ARROGANCE to suggest that because YOU have a proper attitude toward a Creator while the rest of us have a "bias to tear down everything!"
The GALL. I have news for you. It's not your humility to the Creator that allows you to excuse away any honest examination of scripture. It's your gullibility.
Quote
So you yourself are the impediment to actually accomplishing an in depth analysis of scripture. And your confirmation bias will allow you to “prove” anything you want.
The amount of projecting going on with that statement... there isn't that much projecting at Cannes.
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Regarding censorship I believe you at your word it didn’t happen and the 3 dropped posts were something to do with either login issues or the forum database resetting or something. But between dropped posts and the in line responses within a quote it is too tedious to answer certain posts that are now stacking up with similar kind of illogic.
Literally not my problem. And you’re the only one having trouble following logic here.
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You are being a dog in the manger. That is not my problem.
Reported as namecalling. Knock it the hell off.
Quote
Jesus provided exact guidance for these types of interactions in the gospels as he conversed with the Pharisees. They also did not believe in him and were trying to use their “in depth analysis” of scripture to catch him in his words.
Jesus called out the hypocrisy of people who had a surface understanding of scripture but refused to look deeper. I'm just saying, if there are Pharisees in this conversation, it's not the people saying "do what Jesus did: look closer."
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Conspiracy theory is not in depth analysis. VPWs Advanced Class is living proof of this. To me there absolutely is fundamentalist Way bias in how you are presenting your arguments for being an atheist.
To me there is absolute gullibility and a nearly psychopathic desire to accept any explanation under the sun as long as it means not having to admit that you are wrong in how you are presenting your arguments for taking Scripture at your word instead of reading it in context and learning a bit more about the history of the people who produced it.
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”The Word” does not fit with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision. God does not have a purpose for every adjective He inspired, and He doesn’t possess people and write with their hands like automatic writing.
You seem to have us confused with Christians again. I think the scripture intends to say what it actually says. God may not have a purpose for every adjective, but writers do. And when you eliminate “perfection” as a goal of the writer, the bottom line is that they choose words for reasons. Had they meant to say the sky was an “expanse,” they would have. They said it’s a firmament because that’s what they thought. They were wrong. End of story, unless you think God was the Author and He meant something deeper. He wasn’t and He didn’t.
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That is TWI BS and a symptom of an overly aggressive fundamentalist bias.
There is such a thing as an "anti-fundamentalist bias," a rejection of a thought or idea because that thought or idea is held by fundamentalists. The idea that the Bible is anti-gay is a fundamentalist bias. It’s also pretty dead-on accurate, isn’t it. That the scripture can be read and understood because of the words it uses, that's fundamentalist. It's also completely consistent with reason and scripture. But the idea that "I don't like what this says so I'm going to pretend it doesn't really mean that even though it says that quite clearly and historical analysis of what the people of that time believed and taught bears it out. Because I am humble" is indefensible.
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I find the same hyper ventilation over adjectives in other cults - Mormons and JWs. Except they also use the fundamentalist approach to “prove” Joseph Smiths delusions or the GBs true position as the faithful and discreet slave.
You have rejected the claims of every one of those groups, and I would bet good money that you did so without giving them a FRACTION of the deference that Charity and I have given your views.
Now, I'm going to take a break from this thread so I am not tempted to put the modhat on and treat this obnoxious post of yours with the respect it so truly deserves.
This is the Atheism subforum. Christian scripture gets no special treatment here, and that is what you are explicitly demanding of us, under penalty of being subjected to juvenile namecalling and a level of hypocrisy that is astonishing in its lack of self-awareness.
If you cannot handle this forum, you are welcome to stay off it.
But post this kind of bulls hit again and the response will be, within the rules of this site, appropriate.
So when Paul says he was caught up to the third heaven, he's not traveling forward in time. He's traveling upwards in space.
That was the cosmology he would have known: a spherical earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens. He went to the third one.
But that doesn't come from the dozens of scholars who've written peer-reviewed articles and books on the subject.
Nope. Comes from me. I made it all up to frustrate chockfull on a message board frequented by tens of people on a good weekend. You gotta admit, faking 50-someodd names for a bibliography and then actually going out and ghostwriting books without taking credit for it might seem like overkill, but you have no idea how important it is for me to win a debate on the Internet.
It takes a LOT to process a loss of faith. There is a period of intense emotion akin to mourning. Not the loss of a relationship with a nonexistent god, but a recognition that so much time and energy has been wasted in his service that could certainly have benefitted real people instead. If I took the money I gave the church and sent it instead to cancer or als research or autism or clean water or even just a gotdang food bank, I would have actually helped more people.
It is exhausting to come to terms with what just happened in our lives.
Charity came here to share that journey. The disrespect shown in return, the accusations of arrogance, the prissy, privileged, entitled ANGER at her gall to format responses in a way that made you unhappy...
You wanna talk about not being important enough to DEMAND any such thing!?
You wanna talk about who is acting like a f'ing judgmental Pharisee?
Charity will respond however she chooses to respond, and if you don't like the method, tough s*it. How DARE you act as if this creates a problem for YOU, after the contempt you've shown for Charity's journey and pain?
It takes a LOT to process a loss of faith. There is a period of intense emotion akin to mourning. Not the loss of a relationship with a nonexistent god, but a recognition that so much time and energy has been wasted in his service that could certainly have benefitted real people instead. If I took the money I gave the church and sent it instead to cancer or als research or autism or clean water or even just a gotdang food bank, I would have actually helped more people.
It is exhausting to come to terms with what just happened in our lives.
Charity came here to share that journey. The disrespect shown in return, the accusations of arrogance, the prissy, privileged, entitled ANGER at Charity's gall to format responses in a way that made you unhappy...
You wanna talk about not being important enough to DEMAND any such thing!?
You wanna talk about who is acting like a f'ing judgmental Pharisee?
Charity will respond however Charity chooses to respond, and if you don't like the method, tough s*it. How DARE you act as if this creates a problem for YOU, after the contempt you've shown for Charity's journey and pain?
Ok I need to step away before I lose it.
Some might think I'm not on a journey any longer because I've already made up my mind that god does not exist. Sometimes, I ask myself if I've come to that conclusion, why do I continue to read and consider scripture? Do I have a confirmation bias now when I do so?
In your first post on this thread, you cautioned me against allowing my faith to be undermined by whatever challenges my children or grandchildren are facing and you shared your reason for saying so. Although I did mention in my OP post that the doctrine of the rapture and great tribulation was another reason for questioning my faith, being hurt (and angry) at a god for not answering my prayers concerning my grandson's health did make me think I might be coming across to others as a spoiled brat who's having a temper tantrum or saying 'I hate you" to a parent because they didn't get what they want. I wondered a bit if I was myself.
So self-doubt is an uncomfortable part in the process of moving away from one's faith. I know you've experienced this yourself, so I appreciate your post above.
Is it wrong to compare the actions of an almighty heavenly father to how we as human parents would behave towards our own children? I think doing so is a reasonable thing to do, but others might say it's like comparing apples to oranges for god's ways are higher than ours. If god's ways can only be understood spiritually, perhaps those who want to believe they're spiritual will not want to question god's parenting skills so they rationalize them instead. Similarly, questioning god's wisdom in how he shows "unconditional love" to his children only makes us fools according to Paul.
_____________________
Should we not judge a parent as being inhumane when they commands us to love them or face punishment, who sets us up to fail, who says we were born corrupt and unholy and therefore deserving of their wrath and who will meet our needs only when they decide we have enough trust in them?
What surprises me the most about becoming an atheist is how insane biblical apologists now sound when giving answers to sincere questions about God and what the Bible says. I'll come back with examples later.
Then again, some of you might have examples of your owns.
Hi Charity. Reading what you've written throughout made me think of a couple things I'll share, not sure that it's to "help" at all, but just to give my perspective on what you're doing.
First of which is, you appear to be having a pretty normal experience, living your life the only way you can, which is from your side of the experience. Your life, your story, your stuff. As far as I know nothing of this life survives the inevitable end of it's duration. The stuff stays, every bit of it. If there is something that persists it will be "you", and I'm convinced that whether immediately, over time or someday later, the best of what I am and have done will continue through eternity and in the form of "me", and the life I will continue to have. So to me, authenticity is very important, being as real and honest with myself as I can be. I would encourage you to continue being that, being you and working through this life.
Secondly, to describe my own "beliefs" I do use the bible's history, stories and records as a means to understand life. It's not an entirely "faith based" set of beliefs though. I have a lifetime of events and experiences that have built and formed my view of "God", and life. They've taught me, showed me, provided me, given me a growing sense of who I am, what I'm doing and where I'm going. Of the spiritual aspects, call them the metaphysicals, a long history of "miraculous" events have continued through my years. These have shown me both in the moments and then in retrospect a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what I call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine. I can't pretend to grasp all of it but over time I do have what I consider a way to see life, the world I'm in and what I'm doing in it and that includes things that to most others might seem impossible or the products of a delusional mind. But they're real events, delusional or not. Meaningful to me, if not others and even confusing to those who can vouch for them if not explain them as I would. so - I'm just saying I've learned to accept that my life is - mine. I'll share it and live it with others as best I can but I will do my best to not live by someone else's standards if I don't agree with them. To that degree I pursue choice and freedom of will, to the extent it exists for me.
One defining moment of my beliefs came to clarity when it occurred with me and my entire family involved in a miraculous event that unquestionably revealed forces at work we were not in control of and not at the center of, but that were specifically directed to our benefit. During that set of events, each one of us have a different memory of what happened about the same thing - each person's involvement was unique and their own and as a result had different meaning but very clearly all experienced the same thing. Later when that sunk in I realized something so obvious yet powerful that it was overwhelming, life changing. And so it's gone over the years and why I say I know my "faith" is my own. I trust in things that others might not, but based on my life's learning they're true and reliable. This includes a belief in the life's purposes of the Jesus Christ of biblical record and the idea of a redemptive purpose to life.
Which is a long way of saying, I've learned that if I try to be as honest and thoughtful as I can be I seem to be getting through it all at my own pace and the pace I need to. I'm not a warm and fuzzy foo-foo-your-truth-my-truth kind of thinker, I do believe that there is a reality of which we are part of that is providing the structure and functionality that allows us to consciously go forward in time and that can be learned and understood to some degree.
The task is to find the sources and instruction to teach me about that so that I can live the life I'm here to live - which is what I'm doing, amongst other things but I think that's the priority that informs everything I do, trite or serious or whatever it might be that I'm fuzzing around with that at the moment. : )
I wish you the best, you deserve it. We all do, and why not? We didn't get to choose when we were born or who would bring us forth or even when....yet here we are. That in itself is astounding.
Why is death the wage of sin? God could have made the wage of sin anything he wanted. $3.50. But he made it death. Why?
Because to do otherwise would not be just.
But God establishes and defines justice, doesn't he? So if he says the wages of sin is a sincere apology and a sternly worded letter, that would be JUST, because he said so.
Stoning a man to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week is JUST because God said so. Why shouldn't reducing the wages of sin from death to two bits be just?
Ah, because it doesn't EXPLAIN anything.
God as the determiner of morality and justice makes ZERO sense, especially when you consider the downright barbaric penalties he levies for insignificant infractions while treating slavery as more acceptable than shellfish and cheeseburgers.
"BuT iT was AnOtHeR tImE" say the same people who tell us morality is absolute and subjective morality is wishy washy.
Why is death the wage of sin? God could have made the wage of sin anything he wanted. $3.50. But he made it death. Why?
Maybe implicit in your post is that it really wasn't God who decided the wage(s) of sin was/is death, but rather it was a whole bunch of societal elders instead.
What would or does that possibility say about that bunch of elders if indeed it more fairly and correctly was the old (white?) guys who came up with it?
Maybe implicit in your post is that it really wasn't God who decided the wage(s) of sin was/is death, but rather it was a whole bunch of societal elders instead.
If that was only implicit then I am not doing my job as a communicator.
Why is death the wage of sin? God could have made the wage of sin anything he wanted. $3.50. But he made it death. Why?
Since I was a child I’ve wondered the same.
Yahweh had to pay himself with the life of his only begotten to forgive a debt? He was the creditor, he held the note, but he paid himself? With his only begotten son’s life? Now everyone must feel guilty and submit? What passive aggression! WTF? How does this even make sense?
As a father myself, I can think of no deed more wicked than murdering my own son as a means to… accomplish…
The whole scheme is just odd. He pays the price. He is the price. He is the creditor to whom the debt is owed.
But Satan gets the blame for killing him. And the princes of this world: demons. They did it. And if they knew the result, they would not have killed him.
Ah, but Yahweh allowed the satan and his princes to do it. It's an idiom. Math, see? Tailoring. Bespoke baby deer skin gloves.
If I allow my toddler to walk into the street, if I sit on the curb sipping a beer while watching him get run over by a car, as if watching a football game, who is responsible?
What should I say? "That'll teach these people to drive cars on the street." No!
Yahweh had to pay himself with the life of his only begotten to forgive a debt? He was the creditor, he held the note, but he paid himself? With his only begotten son’s life? Now everyone must feel guilty and submit? What passive aggression! WTF? How does this even make sense?
As a father myself, I can think of no deed more wicked than to murder my own son as a means to… accomplish…
… ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!
Another POV: On Julia Sweeney's 'Letting Go of God' video, she talked about her brother's death from cancer - how long it took him to die a slow, painful death. Then she shared what someone had said to her about Jesus' suffering and crucifixion in comparison and the comment was "Jesus had a bad weekend." Add to this the idea that he was only dead for 3 days and 3 nights and then God got his son back again.
I've never thought of the passive-aggressive point you made above before. John 3:16 also makes this tug-on-the-heartstring point.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
Yet, where are the books? You would think if this was actually true, there would be more historical records other than just the gospels? Yes/no?
Since everyone dies everyone gets paid lol we earned the right
I get it - "the wages of sin is death" idea from Romans 6 which takes you back to the whole Adam and Eve story in Genesis 3. For those who think this was an allegory or a fictional story posing as history to teach us something (a myth), what part of it teaches how sin really entered the world that we are born with it and therefore deserving of death?
I get it - "the wages of sin is death" idea from Romans 6 which takes you back to the whole Adam and Eve story in Genesis 3. For those who think this was an allegory or a fictional story posing as history to teach us something (a myth), what part of it teaches how sin really entered the world that we are born with it and therefore deserving of death?
As if death is a bad thing
Love your enemies, whether it's death or something else
Hi Charity. Reading what you've written throughout made me think of a couple things I'll share, not sure that it's to "help" at all, but just to give my perspective on what you're doing.
First of which is, you appear to be having a pretty normal experience, living your life the only way you can, which is from your side of the experience. Your life, your story, your stuff. As far as I know nothing of this life survives the inevitable end of it's duration. The stuff stays, every bit of it. If there is something that persists it will be "you", and I'm convinced that whether immediately, over time or someday later, the best of what I am and have done will continue through eternity and in the form of "me", and the life I will continue to have. So to me, authenticity is very important, being as real and honest with myself as I can be. I would encourage you to continue being that, being you and working through this life.
Secondly, to describe my own "beliefs" I do use the bible's history, stories and records as a means to understand life. It's not an entirely "faith based" set of beliefs though. I have a lifetime of events and experiences that have built and formed my view of "God", and life. They've taught me, showed me, provided me, given me a growing sense of who I am, what I'm doing and where I'm going. Of the spiritual aspects, call them the metaphysicals, a long history of "miraculous" events have continued through my years. These have shown me both in the moments and then in retrospect a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what I call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine. I can't pretend to grasp all of it but over time I do have what I consider a way to see life, the world I'm in and what I'm doing in it and that includes things that to most others might seem impossible or the products of a delusional mind. But they're real events, delusional or not. Meaningful to me, if not others and even confusing to those who can vouch for them if not explain them as I would. so - I'm just saying I've learned to accept that my life is - mine. I'll share it and live it with others as best I can but I will do my best to not live by someone else's standards if I don't agree with them. To that degree I pursue choice and freedom of will, to the extent it exists for me.
One defining moment of my beliefs came to clarity when it occurred with me and my entire family involved in a miraculous event that unquestionably revealed forces at work we were not in control of and not at the center of, but that were specifically directed to our benefit. During that set of events, each one of us have a different memory of what happened about the same thing - each person's involvement was unique and their own and as a result had different meaning but very clearly all experienced the same thing. Later when that sunk in I realized something so obvious yet powerful that it was overwhelming, life changing. And so it's gone over the years and why I say I know my "faith" is my own. I trust in things that others might not, but based on my life's learning they're true and reliable. This includes a belief in the life's purposes of the Jesus Christ of biblical record and the idea of a redemptive purpose to life.
Which is a long way of saying, I've learned that if I try to be as honest and thoughtful as I can be I seem to be getting through it all at my own pace and the pace I need to. I'm not a warm and fuzzy foo-foo-your-truth-my-truth kind of thinker, I do believe that there is a reality of which we are part of that is providing the structure and functionality that allows us to consciously go forward in time and that can be learned and understood to some degree.
The task is to find the sources and instruction to teach me about that so that I can live the life I'm here to live - which is what I'm doing, amongst other things but I think that's the priority that informs everything I do, trite or serious or whatever it might be that I'm fuzzing around with that at the moment. : )
I wish you the best, you deserve it. We all do, and why not? We didn't get to choose when we were born or who would bring us forth or even when....yet here we are. That in itself is astounding.
Hi, Socks.Thank you for your post and your well wishes.I’ve always liked your twirling, dancing character.
I want to understand the gist of what you are saying, so I hope you don’t mind that I condensed it down to some main points. Feel free to correct any misunderstandings I may have arrived at.
Concerning your beliefs, personal events and experiences have enabled you to form your view of God, your life, your purpose and who you are.The bible also helps you with this but not necessarily in the sense of needing to commit to a prescribed set of beliefs.
In addition to these, a long history of "miraculous" events have shown you a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what you call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine.
One specific miraculous event became a defining moment in what you believe.There were outside forces involved which benefited your life in a special or particular way.
Over the years you have come to know that your “faith” is your own as it is founded on things you have found to be true and reliable, two of which are Jesus Christ and a redemptive purpose in your life.
Finally, you want to find the sources and instruction which will better make known to you a present reality of which we are all a part – a reality that helps us to best fulfill its purpose for our lives.
Here are some questions I have. Are the forces of nature related to or because of God’s active presence in your life or are the two separate from each other?Do you believe it's always been God or the forces of nature (or both) behind the miraculous events over the years? Do you think Jesus Christ has proven to be true and reliable because you have remained aware of his redemptive work in your life? Is the reality you speak of a kind of benevolent relationship you have with someone or something?
What I seem to be seeing is a physical and spiritual life that is free of any authoritative forces or demands but instead is the result of a genuine thankfulness and a willingness to keep God and Jesus Christ in your life which in turn has allowed you live an authentic and progressive life. I'm interested in knowing about any challenges you've had along the way with your faith and how they were resolved if you are inclined to share them.
Love your enemies, whether it's death or something else
Fear not
I appreciate a reply to my post cman, but I was hoping you'd share your thoughts on the source of sin thingy I mentioned. Was it because you didn't have any or you weren't interested in sharing them?
I did alert the other moderator(s) about the content of this thread, but I did not request any action be taken. I alerted them both to make sure we were ALL in compliance with site rules AND to make sure that I personally was held accountable to someone other than myself.
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waysider
Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been
waysider
When you consider the irony in this, it's almost comical in a perversely twisted way. Want something from God? Follow a complicated formula. Make sure to cross every T and dot every I. Want
Raf
William Lane Craig is the master of the Gish Gallop, a form of debate in which you efficiently spout as much bulls hit in the time allotted as you possibly can. Since it takes more time to clean bulls
Posted Images
Raf
The pot here is having a delightful conversation with the kettle. You see, when I disagree with you, it's because of my sh-t-colored bias. But when I agree it's because I've opened my mind to the possibilities of what Scripture really means underneath those pesky little words it actually uses.
I'm curious to know what color glasses you wear when you approach the Book of Mormon and the Q'uran.
Since you've established in this post and several that precede it that this kind of tone is fair game, I would like to point out that this one sentence (well, comma splice, anyway) may well be the stupidest, most refutable piece of dung you've ever written on this site, and that's saying a lot. [Sorry: YOU brought dung into the conversation as an acceptable reference to my point of view, so it's only fair].
Of course, there IS a cosmology in Genesis 1 that is actually laid out in Genesis 1. Had you taken a deeper look into the history of the Semitic people and the ancient Canaanites, you would see quite clearly that Genesis 1 reflects an actual ancient belief about what people once thought the universe looked like. Of course, you can't DO that without some degree of humility and acknowledgment of the possibility that you MIGHT be WRONG about something, so I wouldn't expect you to undertake this honest kind of inquiry that you have labeled "poop" to absolve yourself of the responsibility to read a f-ing book or two.
The ONLY reason those elements are considered symbolic today is that they have been disproven literally. There is no indication that the writers [plural: there was more than one and likely none of them were named Moses] meant anything other than what they said: that the sky is a giant glass wall holding back an ocean above us, and that there are windows in that wall that were opened to create the flood in Noah's day.
It would be delusional to say he was mentally abusing children. But to say someone made up all the stories? Of COURSE someone made up those stories! They're preposterous. But if YOU want to say the stories are TRUE, then it is incumbent on you to document the historicity of each account. You can't even tell me who wrote which gospel! Now, you can call it "delusional" to believe the stories are all made up, but you do that while at the same time dismissing all the miracles of the Q'uran and the Book of Mormon as delusional, and you do so without even making room for the faintest of possibilities that they might be a "record" of something that actually happened.
Funny how that works. It's okay to be dismissive of the miracle stories of other holy books, but not of your own. It's almost like, what's the word Jesus [allegedly] used all the time? Hypocrisy?
That is LITERALLY what you are doing. You say these stories are true unless we prove them wrong, absolving yourself again of the responsibility in dialectics to prove the affirmative claims you are making. Meanwhile, again, you ignore "probabilities of any kind" that you are wrong to dismiss the miracle claims of other religions. Why is it okay for you to do that to every other religion but it's not okay for us to do that to yours?
Yes, but the Epic of Gilgamesh does not hold itself to be the Word of God, and its history is not put forth as a real accounting of events. Also, Spider-Man does not live, even though his comics say he lives in New York City. The fact that a story is placed in a real place, even at a real time, and its characters interact with real people, does not make the story true. Gilgamesh is fiction and never intended to be treated otherwise.
Genesis didn't become symbolism until skepticism exposed it as ahistorical.
Ok,, number one, the f'ing namecalling has to stop. I let you get away with it before and I regret it. Second, we LITERALLY do not believe we are the center of the universe. You have us confused with Christians, who actually believe the purpose of the universe is earth, the purpose of the earth is life, the purpose of life is man and the purpose of man is God. Actual Chrisitan dogma. The flipping NERVE to accuse us of that which you do!
The second stupidest thing you've written in this post, but probably only fourth or fifth stupidest overall on GSC.
So it's my responsibility to accept that you are right, period, shut up. Right? Because that's what you are actually saying. "Shut up and accept my views or, if you don't, YOU'RE arrogant."
GET
YOURSELF
I refer you to the previous thread: Religion has a vaccine for the Reason virus.
This is magical thinking, not reason. The whole POINT of using WORDS as the means of communication is reason, our ability to discern meaning from words. The ARROGANCE to suggest that because YOU have a proper attitude toward a Creator while the rest of us have a "bias to tear down everything!"
The GALL. I have news for you. It's not your humility to the Creator that allows you to excuse away any honest examination of scripture. It's your gullibility.
The amount of projecting going on with that statement... there isn't that much projecting at Cannes.
Literally not my problem. And you’re the only one having trouble following logic here.
Reported as namecalling. Knock it the hell off.
Jesus called out the hypocrisy of people who had a surface understanding of scripture but refused to look deeper. I'm just saying, if there are Pharisees in this conversation, it's not the people saying "do what Jesus did: look closer."
To me there is absolute gullibility and a nearly psychopathic desire to accept any explanation under the sun as long as it means not having to admit that you are wrong in how you are presenting your arguments for taking Scripture at your word instead of reading it in context and learning a bit more about the history of the people who produced it.
You seem to have us confused with Christians again. I think the scripture intends to say what it actually says. God may not have a purpose for every adjective, but writers do. And when you eliminate “perfection” as a goal of the writer, the bottom line is that they choose words for reasons. Had they meant to say the sky was an “expanse,” they would have. They said it’s a firmament because that’s what they thought. They were wrong. End of story, unless you think God was the Author and He meant something deeper. He wasn’t and He didn’t.
There is such a thing as an "anti-fundamentalist bias," a rejection of a thought or idea because that thought or idea is held by fundamentalists. The idea that the Bible is anti-gay is a fundamentalist bias. It’s also pretty dead-on accurate, isn’t it. That the scripture can be read and understood because of the words it uses, that's fundamentalist. It's also completely consistent with reason and scripture. But the idea that "I don't like what this says so I'm going to pretend it doesn't really mean that even though it says that quite clearly and historical analysis of what the people of that time believed and taught bears it out. Because I am humble" is indefensible.
You have rejected the claims of every one of those groups, and I would bet good money that you did so without giving them a FRACTION of the deference that Charity and I have given your views.
Now, I'm going to take a break from this thread so I am not tempted to put the modhat on and treat this obnoxious post of yours with the respect it so truly deserves.
This is the Atheism subforum. Christian scripture gets no special treatment here, and that is what you are explicitly demanding of us, under penalty of being subjected to juvenile namecalling and a level of hypocrisy that is astonishing in its lack of self-awareness.
If you cannot handle this forum, you are welcome to stay off it.
But post this kind of bulls hit again and the response will be, within the rules of this site, appropriate.
[Moderator edit to correct formatting issues]
Edited by RafFormatting issues
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Raf
By the way, this is what I mean about the challenge of responding to a Gish Gallop. It takes a LOT longer than the nonsense you're trying to refute.
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Raf
Biblical cosmology.
Apparently I made all this up.
So when Paul says he was caught up to the third heaven, he's not traveling forward in time. He's traveling upwards in space.
That was the cosmology he would have known: a spherical earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens. He went to the third one.
But that doesn't come from the dozens of scholars who've written peer-reviewed articles and books on the subject.
Nope. Comes from me. I made it all up to frustrate chockfull on a message board frequented by tens of people on a good weekend. You gotta admit, faking 50-someodd names for a bibliography and then actually going out and ghostwriting books without taking credit for it might seem like overkill, but you have no idea how important it is for me to win a debate on the Internet.
FFS.
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Raf
Final thought for now:
It takes a LOT to process a loss of faith. There is a period of intense emotion akin to mourning. Not the loss of a relationship with a nonexistent god, but a recognition that so much time and energy has been wasted in his service that could certainly have benefitted real people instead. If I took the money I gave the church and sent it instead to cancer or als research or autism or clean water or even just a gotdang food bank, I would have actually helped more people.
It is exhausting to come to terms with what just happened in our lives.
Charity came here to share that journey. The disrespect shown in return, the accusations of arrogance, the prissy, privileged, entitled ANGER at her gall to format responses in a way that made you unhappy...
You wanna talk about not being important enough to DEMAND any such thing!?
You wanna talk about who is acting like a f'ing judgmental Pharisee?
Charity will respond however she chooses to respond, and if you don't like the method, tough s*it. How DARE you act as if this creates a problem for YOU, after the contempt you've shown for Charity's journey and pain?
Ok I need to step away before I lose it.
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waysider
"Before the beginning....."
(starts at 8:05)
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Charity
Some might think I'm not on a journey any longer because I've already made up my mind that god does not exist. Sometimes, I ask myself if I've come to that conclusion, why do I continue to read and consider scripture? Do I have a confirmation bias now when I do so?
In your first post on this thread, you cautioned me against allowing my faith to be undermined by whatever challenges my children or grandchildren are facing and you shared your reason for saying so. Although I did mention in my OP post that the doctrine of the rapture and great tribulation was another reason for questioning my faith, being hurt (and angry) at a god for not answering my prayers concerning my grandson's health did make me think I might be coming across to others as a spoiled brat who's having a temper tantrum or saying 'I hate you" to a parent because they didn't get what they want. I wondered a bit if I was myself.
So self-doubt is an uncomfortable part in the process of moving away from one's faith. I know you've experienced this yourself, so I appreciate your post above.
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Charity
Is it wrong to compare the actions of an almighty heavenly father to how we as human parents would behave towards our own children? I think doing so is a reasonable thing to do, but others might say it's like comparing apples to oranges for god's ways are higher than ours. If god's ways can only be understood spiritually, perhaps those who want to believe they're spiritual will not want to question god's parenting skills so they rationalize them instead. Similarly, questioning god's wisdom in how he shows "unconditional love" to his children only makes us fools according to Paul.
_____________________
Should we not judge a parent as being inhumane when they commands us to love them or face punishment, who sets us up to fail, who says we were born corrupt and unholy and therefore deserving of their wrath and who will meet our needs only when they decide we have enough trust in them?
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Charity
What surprises me the most about becoming an atheist is how insane biblical apologists now sound when giving answers to sincere questions about God and what the Bible says. I'll come back with examples later.
Then again, some of you might have examples of your owns.
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socks
Hi Charity. Reading what you've written throughout made me think of a couple things I'll share, not sure that it's to "help" at all, but just to give my perspective on what you're doing.
First of which is, you appear to be having a pretty normal experience, living your life the only way you can, which is from your side of the experience. Your life, your story, your stuff. As far as I know nothing of this life survives the inevitable end of it's duration. The stuff stays, every bit of it. If there is something that persists it will be "you", and I'm convinced that whether immediately, over time or someday later, the best of what I am and have done will continue through eternity and in the form of "me", and the life I will continue to have. So to me, authenticity is very important, being as real and honest with myself as I can be. I would encourage you to continue being that, being you and working through this life.
Secondly, to describe my own "beliefs" I do use the bible's history, stories and records as a means to understand life. It's not an entirely "faith based" set of beliefs though. I have a lifetime of events and experiences that have built and formed my view of "God", and life. They've taught me, showed me, provided me, given me a growing sense of who I am, what I'm doing and where I'm going. Of the spiritual aspects, call them the metaphysicals, a long history of "miraculous" events have continued through my years. These have shown me both in the moments and then in retrospect a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what I call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine. I can't pretend to grasp all of it but over time I do have what I consider a way to see life, the world I'm in and what I'm doing in it and that includes things that to most others might seem impossible or the products of a delusional mind. But they're real events, delusional or not. Meaningful to me, if not others and even confusing to those who can vouch for them if not explain them as I would. so - I'm just saying I've learned to accept that my life is - mine. I'll share it and live it with others as best I can but I will do my best to not live by someone else's standards if I don't agree with them. To that degree I pursue choice and freedom of will, to the extent it exists for me.
One defining moment of my beliefs came to clarity when it occurred with me and my entire family involved in a miraculous event that unquestionably revealed forces at work we were not in control of and not at the center of, but that were specifically directed to our benefit. During that set of events, each one of us have a different memory of what happened about the same thing - each person's involvement was unique and their own and as a result had different meaning but very clearly all experienced the same thing. Later when that sunk in I realized something so obvious yet powerful that it was overwhelming, life changing. And so it's gone over the years and why I say I know my "faith" is my own. I trust in things that others might not, but based on my life's learning they're true and reliable. This includes a belief in the life's purposes of the Jesus Christ of biblical record and the idea of a redemptive purpose to life.
Which is a long way of saying, I've learned that if I try to be as honest and thoughtful as I can be I seem to be getting through it all at my own pace and the pace I need to. I'm not a warm and fuzzy foo-foo-your-truth-my-truth kind of thinker, I do believe that there is a reality of which we are part of that is providing the structure and functionality that allows us to consciously go forward in time and that can be learned and understood to some degree.
The task is to find the sources and instruction to teach me about that so that I can live the life I'm here to live - which is what I'm doing, amongst other things but I think that's the priority that informs everything I do, trite or serious or whatever it might be that I'm fuzzing around with that at the moment. : )
I wish you the best, you deserve it. We all do, and why not? We didn't get to choose when we were born or who would bring us forth or even when....yet here we are. That in itself is astounding.
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Raf
Why did Jesus have to die?
Why is death the wage of sin? God could have made the wage of sin anything he wanted. $3.50. But he made it death. Why?
Because to do otherwise would not be just.
But God establishes and defines justice, doesn't he? So if he says the wages of sin is a sincere apology and a sternly worded letter, that would be JUST, because he said so.
Stoning a man to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week is JUST because God said so. Why shouldn't reducing the wages of sin from death to two bits be just?
Ah, because it doesn't EXPLAIN anything.
God as the determiner of morality and justice makes ZERO sense, especially when you consider the downright barbaric penalties he levies for insignificant infractions while treating slavery as more acceptable than shellfish and cheeseburgers.
"BuT iT was AnOtHeR tImE" say the same people who tell us morality is absolute and subjective morality is wishy washy.
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Rocky
Maybe implicit in your post is that it really wasn't God who decided the wage(s) of sin was/is death, but rather it was a whole bunch of societal elders instead.
What would or does that possibility say about that bunch of elders if indeed it more fairly and correctly was the old (white?) guys who came up with it?
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Raf
If that was only implicit then I am not doing my job as a communicator.
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cman
Since everyone dies everyone gets paid lol we earned the right
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Nathan_Jr
Since I was a child I’ve wondered the same.
Yahweh had to pay himself with the life of his only begotten to forgive a debt? He was the creditor, he held the note, but he paid himself? With his only begotten son’s life? Now everyone must feel guilty and submit? What passive aggression! WTF? How does this even make sense?
As a father myself, I can think of no deed more wicked than murdering my own son as a means to… accomplish…
… ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Raf
The whole scheme is just odd. He pays the price. He is the price. He is the creditor to whom the debt is owed.
But Satan gets the blame for killing him. And the princes of this world: demons. They did it. And if they knew the result, they would not have killed him.
But that makes no sense at all.
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Nathan_Jr
Ah, but Yahweh allowed the satan and his princes to do it. It's an idiom. Math, see? Tailoring. Bespoke baby deer skin gloves.
If I allow my toddler to walk into the street, if I sit on the curb sipping a beer while watching him get run over by a car, as if watching a football game, who is responsible?
What should I say? "That'll teach these people to drive cars on the street." No!
I'll tell you what killed that little boy.
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Charity
Another POV: On Julia Sweeney's 'Letting Go of God' video, she talked about her brother's death from cancer - how long it took him to die a slow, painful death. Then she shared what someone had said to her about Jesus' suffering and crucifixion in comparison and the comment was "Jesus had a bad weekend." Add to this the idea that he was only dead for 3 days and 3 nights and then God got his son back again.
I've never thought of the passive-aggressive point you made above before. John 3:16 also makes this tug-on-the-heartstring point.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
Yet, where are the books? You would think if this was actually true, there would be more historical records other than just the gospels? Yes/no?
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Charity
I get it - "the wages of sin is death" idea from Romans 6 which takes you back to the whole Adam and Eve story in Genesis 3. For those who think this was an allegory or a fictional story posing as history to teach us something (a myth), what part of it teaches how sin really entered the world that we are born with it and therefore deserving of death?
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Rocky
Well, did you say it in words that you wrote? Sorry if you don't like the word "implicit."
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Raf
I was teasing.
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cman
As if death is a bad thing
Love your enemies, whether it's death or something else
Fear not
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Charity
Hi, Socks. Thank you for your post and your well wishes. I’ve always liked your twirling, dancing character.
I want to understand the gist of what you are saying, so I hope you don’t mind that I condensed it down to some main points. Feel free to correct any misunderstandings I may have arrived at.
Concerning your beliefs, personal events and experiences have enabled you to form your view of God, your life, your purpose and who you are. The bible also helps you with this but not necessarily in the sense of needing to commit to a prescribed set of beliefs.
In addition to these, a long history of "miraculous" events have shown you a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what you call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine.
One specific miraculous event became a defining moment in what you believe. There were outside forces involved which benefited your life in a special or particular way.
Over the years you have come to know that your “faith” is your own as it is founded on things you have found to be true and reliable, two of which are Jesus Christ and a redemptive purpose in your life.
Finally, you want to find the sources and instruction which will better make known to you a present reality of which we are all a part – a reality that helps us to best fulfill its purpose for our lives.
Here are some questions I have. Are the forces of nature related to or because of God’s active presence in your life or are the two separate from each other? Do you believe it's always been God or the forces of nature (or both) behind the miraculous events over the years? Do you think Jesus Christ has proven to be true and reliable because you have remained aware of his redemptive work in your life? Is the reality you speak of a kind of benevolent relationship you have with someone or something?
What I seem to be seeing is a physical and spiritual life that is free of any authoritative forces or demands but instead is the result of a genuine thankfulness and a willingness to keep God and Jesus Christ in your life which in turn has allowed you live an authentic and progressive life. I'm interested in knowing about any challenges you've had along the way with your faith and how they were resolved if you are inclined to share them.
Thanks again Socks.
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Charity
I appreciate a reply to my post cman, but I was hoping you'd share your thoughts on the source of sin thingy I mentioned. Was it because you didn't have any or you weren't interested in sharing them?
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Raf
FYI:
I did alert the other moderator(s) about the content of this thread, but I did not request any action be taken. I alerted them both to make sure we were ALL in compliance with site rules AND to make sure that I personally was held accountable to someone other than myself.
Thank you.
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