I just gotta say this: It certainly does appear to me that VPW took verbatim from other men's works. Personally, I do not really give a doodly damn. The things in the class that were a blessing to me, regardless of where they came from were, and still are, a blessing to me.
I do not thnk that the argument that "you shall know them by their fruits" is a good way to prove that The Way was evil though, as was outlined in the second post.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
For, so many many of us here are that fruit! You and I have read it over and over again where so many people from the past have been praised up one side and down the other for "the wonderful love of God that they had in their heart", and how they were so "willing to do anything for the believers". Just look at the thread about the Way Corps and the "good ones" that you've known. Or there is a thread about good times at the Rock, just filled with fond memories. And, in the "In Memorium" thread, there have been so many wonderful things said aout these wonderful people who have now fallen asleep that it rather amazes me. It amazes me because in one thread, TWI is/was a ministry of hate and abuse, but on another thread it is/was the place where so many people had some of the finest times of their lives!
I have been roasted for saying positive things here about The Way, and have been challenged by those who disagree with me and say that; "it wasn't The Way or it's leaders that were good, but rather the people in the ministry that were good". Well, these good people spoken of are the fruits of VPWs ministry. You are-we are, whether we like it or not.
And so, to use this argument that there was bad fruit from the PFAL class, therefore the class was bad, I think is a poor argument for the purpose of discrediting the class. Hey, I am a fruit of it, and so were all of you! Are you bad?
And so, I want to tell you that I in no way defend the sexual abuse and the mental abuse that occurred in The Way. I do believe it happened, and that it was wrong, is off the Word, it hurt people, and that the perpetrators were hypocrytical.
But, honestly, and I do not mean to pick a fight here, but, why is it that the "evil minions" of The Way are reviled with reckless abandon on one thread, but then praised up one side and down the other in the In Memorium thread as was the case with ex VP Donald Earnst and many others who have passed on? I mean it does seem to be a huge dichotomy, doesn't it?
I would think that some Psychologist dissecting this site might think that we in this group here are loaded up with a lot of major inconsistencies. Or, that studying this site might be a good basis for a thesis for a doctorate in psychology...
I dunno Johnnie...if Y`all are the *fruit* of this ministry ..... In all humble honesty I have to ask you .... What the he-- does that make the equal number or greater of folks who were devistated in one way or another by this very same ministry?
Do we not count?
Are hearts and lives destroyed not considered putrid fruit?
Where do we fit in your analogy?
If the scriptures say that a GOOD tree can not bring forth corrupt fruit.......on the surface that would appear to disqualify twi right then and there....
The suffering endured by so many seems inconsequential in the *fruit* count.. it feels like we were inconsequencial in the grand scheme of things....and therefor inconsequencial to God.
Plagerism is theft plain and simple.....talk about trees and fruit......
How are you going to have good fruit from something that was dishonest at the very conception....SURE the information was good tha he stole...from a man who gives every evidence of being of the *spirit*...
But then you have a man who`s actions were definatly in the *flesh* catagory* ...he mixes good doctrine with bad in order to support and give credence for some of his pet perversions.......
The way I see it.....you have a crook using some good materials that support some really bad doctrine.....that is a recipe for disaster.
Who were the people who took pfal and became committed to twi?
I believe that those folks were searching for answers...people whose hearts were inclined towards God and desired to do the right thing. Thousands upon thousands of us. Most of us were kind and decent people before we joined. It's true that many of the "recruits" became corrupt as they climbed the waytree but most of the rank and file remained kind and decent.
Speaking only for myself, I was raised in a Christian home and learned about the love of God from my mother. I had a biblical foundation of truth laid in my life before I ever heard of twi. It's true that I learned a lot of bible from twi (some was accurate some was not)...but I do not consider my life to be the fruit of Veepee Wierwille's ministry. Twi was a stepping stone along the journey of life. I doubt that my life would be all that different today had I never heard of twi.
So... When we look at twi in hindsight, you can look at the lives of thousands of people who were really great people...people who loved God and treated others with respect and kindness. I suppose you could look at any Christian ministry and see similar types of people as well. The question is whether all the great folks in twi were great because of Veepee's ministry...or...because they were great folks that just happened to sit through pfal.
Even as I don't blame Wierwille for my own personal sins, I also don't give him credit for the good qualities about my life either. Did Wierwille's ministry impact my life?
Yes, it cheated me out of 13 years of my life when I could have been finishing college and building a secular career...it filled my head with some very wrong and destructive doctrines...it alienated me from my family and friends...and in the final analysis, they rewarded my faithfulness with callous indifference.
What Wierwille had to offer, I could have found in other places. The years that I gave to twi only served to bolster their bank account and their egos. The pfal class is discredited not because of the fruit it produced but because it was loaded with error.
Ya know, there may be a majority of people here at this site who were hurt by TWI. But, you know, there are thousands of others at other websites who are thankful for their time spent in The Way and are sad that it all fell apart. http://eph320.com/ is one place where there are many many who don't view it as a ministry that "destroyed their lives". There are people in CFF who view TWI One as something that was good and wonderful. There are those with CES who view TWI One as something that was a big blessing to their lives that started out good and then went sour due to your basic idolatry, as well as many others. I know a guy who is over in India who is still running the PFAL class in the Hindu language who goes about teaching and converting Hindus and Sikhs to the redemption that is found through Jesus Christ our lord. It's almost weird when I get e-mails from him, because it's like he's in a "time warp". When the Way went down, he just kept on keeping on with no allegience to anyone. And man! You should hear the stories of deliverance! It blows my mind the things he is doing there with "old Way doctrine". In fact, a friend of mine's eighteen year old son is now over there, and he sends thes fantastic e-mails about the blind seeing and the dead being raised, and all kinds of "Ist Century Church In The 21st" kind of stuff. I wonder if he relays the story of "Punjab Jump Up" when he runs the class in Hindi...
And this guy's first real introduction to the Bible came via PFAL at an American university when he first came over to study from India. And this guy is as pure as the driven snow. And to me, just he alone was a beautiful fruit from TWI that has become a fantastic blessing to many thousands in poverty stricken India...
And yes, he has progressed in doctrine well beyond TWI, but has held fast to the good and discarded the bad.
And so, I don't think that the "bad fruit thing" is the best way to discredit PFAL, that's all. And there are many here who have posted that they had great times in The Way and are glad of their involvement. I just got PM'd by two of them this morning and would do it again if they had the chance. But of course these folks take the easy road when they post so they don't come under the normal ridicule that follows when positives are spoken. Well gee now, that kinda speaks volumes now that I think about it. They really liked their time in The Way, but don't really want to mention it publicly because they don't want to be blasted for it. That seems to say something about the "broad minded thinking" of those who blast...
Groucho, sorry I didn't respond to your post. I didn't read it through yet. You kinda snuck it in there when I was contemplating this reply...
And once again, why is there what appears to be such a double standard where on the one hand; that The Way's "evil minions" deserve "Death to Smoochy" for supporting and promoting a ministry of evil even if they weren't the actual perpetrators? But on the other hand when they are talked about on an individual basis at a "happy thread", or sadly at the In Memorium thread, they are revered as wonderful men and women of God full of so much love and believing? I dunno, it does seem a bit contradictory to me, that's all...
The plagerism thing is a better point if you want to pick at it.
In order to say the way and pfal was a tree that brought forth good fruit.....one has to say that the bad fruit didn`t exist....a tree cannot bring forth both according to the scriptural analogy.
So you want to blythly go on touting your way experience and the people you knew as good fruit of the ministry and pfal.........reminiscing about your corpes days like it was some kind of rowdy frat party most of the time......
BUT...to do so completely ignores the putrid fruit of destroyed lives....it cannot exist according to the analogy.
I think that the context of your good times and great friends would have to be something entirely set apart from the fruit of twi and pfal....
It was your buddies and your experiences....your spirituality......good fruit .....verses twi and it`s harmfull doctrines hidden in the good, twi`s leaders who justified abuse of their power and authority, were successfully hidden behind the good leaders of character and integrety...that genuinely tried to help.......THESE are the fruit of twi
Maybe we are talking about two different trees and entirely different situations.
Just because Johnny had fun, doesn`t mean twi was a spiritually wholesom place....... Just like the good doctrine of bg leonard was a vehicle that carried the damaging doctrine in pfal....the good folks were the cover and momentum that permitted the evil practitioners to sneak in and destroy from behind the scenes.
When LCM ran out the good folks the ones with enough charcater and integrety to not accept the atrocious behavior when confronted with his line drawn in the sand....there was litteraly nothing left to disguise the evil practiced anymore.....and twi is folding because of it.
And to others who may care to listen, I believe it was the disobedience to God's Word that we learned in PFAL that caused the bad fruit of hurt lives, not the information in PFAL that caused it. It was the people who ignored and lived their lives in contradiction to I Corinthinas 13 (the love of God chapter) which was also included in PFAL. Just like it was King David the human being who disobeyed God's commandment of "thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, thou shalt not kill" who did the harmful things to his people and his kingdom. It wasn't the commandments themselves that did the harm, it was the people who disobeyed those commandments that have caused the hurt through out the centuries. And the same is here with TWI.
But there was plenty of good from from the Word of God that was taught in The Way, and amazingly, VPW did a lot of teaching of it. There may be a lot of people here in this little microcosm of the GSCafe who believe that it was all evil from beginning to end, and that it was all with the intent of screwing people literally and figuratively from beginning to end, but in reality, these folks who believe this scenario are a minority. Check out www.eph320.com It might make you puke, but, there is a huge amount of people who look back upon their involvement with fondness. Who look at TWI as the ministry that offered them that which saved their lives from wretched defeat, and sometimes sickness and death itself. But I guess since we should judge them for their beliefs, they are just a bunch frolicking frat boys and frat girls....
Look, I have not negated nor denied the negative things that happened to wonderful people at the hands of those disobeying God's commandments who had places of leadership and responsibility. But neither have I negated the good things that I learned in PFAL (plagerized material or not), nor have I negated the wonderful people whom I met during those days who were leaders in responsible positions, and the wonderful times that I had. Personally, I'd rather focus on the positive, for I think it is a far healthier thing to do... :)
I agree with both of you. I too can say I knew a lot of great people in twi and had good times but what I found out about twi in 1999 ruined everything about it. Nope not one damed thing can I think of twi can I say was good.
If the "root" was rotten how could the "leaves" be any good? We as the "leaves" wilted away quick and fell off the tree. It seems with twi tree it bloomed in March but all the "leaves" fell off in May because of the poisen it was being fed by the "root".
twi may have started out well intended but when the MOG could not put it all together by himself he went to plagerizing pafl and claimed it for his own words. So in other words that way tree was dying very quickly after sprouting. Now it is a tree that blooms once every other year. If it was in your yard you would call the tree cutting company and have it cut down, mulch it and put in a toxic waste dump. :)
You missed my point plain and simple..... I am sorry that it wasn`t communicated in a manner that was more effective....I think that the thought was valid...how much better though if I had been able to communicate it in a way that you could comprehend and consider......
You have taken offense where none was intended, my bad for not being able to communicate my intention and thoughts better :(
Ya' know guys, nothing screws things up as quickly as a bad analogy.
When Jesus spoke of fruit he was referring to a person and what came of his life. I'm not sure you can make that analogy work when you change the context and make a class the tree and the people its fruit.
The class was a class. To the extent that the Word was taught and received, there was fruit. You can't blame God, or the Word for people's bad actions. Yes plagiarism is stealing, but that is separate from the Word that was in the class.
There is one line in the class the I have found to be almost prophetic - "the deacons don't deak and the elders don't eld" I'm not trying to be light-hearted but if there were truly pastors and they were doing what they were suppposed to do the people would have been guarded.
If people were hurt they are not the rotten fruit. The PAIN they went through was the rotten fruit of the people that inflicted that pain.
I find it amazing that all these years have gone and so much pain has been felt but sometimes we jump for the jugular way too quickly. I can only be reminded of this image I have of everyone trying to to look out for themselves and in the process they step on someone else's toes.
Hey Merry Christmas you guys! Have a gerat holiday with your families and spend some time counting all the blessings you have. if you've been hurt or injured, thank God that you got out and that you can keep on healing. We should be praying for each other and not attacking each other. Otherwise we get too close to the old days of M& A ....
Lol...just my lack of communication skills at work yet again Just loafing....thank you for understanding...I did indeed mean to address my comments to Mr. Lingo.
Guess I will dig my hole yet even deeper by trying to elaborate on my point...sigh
As far as the rowdy frat party jibe......that is simply what your reminisces have reminded me of...I didn`t really mean to get you mad......the stories all seem light hearted and to revolve around johnny n his buds having fun, flaunting the stuffy authority...able to outsmart the estabishment...even make em look stupid once in a while.......johnny had a good time ....so did his friends in spite of the creeps in charge.......kindda reminded me of the movie animal house...in a GOOD way. ......
So anyway....the criteria for twi/pfal as a tree and the fruit that the tree produced is that it HAD to be good because Johnny and his buddies were the representative good fruit.....in my mind.....it stands to reason that the people who were hurt were either fruit as well...or not important enough to be part of the tree period....
So Johnny has fun ...learns bunches...is successfull.....learns some scripture that helps him....meanwhile his sweet sisters who`s hearts were just as dedicated ....who`s commitments were every bit as earnest as his, their desire to serve God ..........were being groomed for something else besides teaching at sunday night service and running twigs.....they are learning that their primary spiritual responsibility required is to service the filthy old b-stards that were running that nut house :(
Now it is funny, but If God was there.....and the criteria being that Johnny got blessed....that means that the girls who`s call to service involved other areas of responsibility.....were not
I often wonder how differently peoples opinions would have been of wierwilles classes and doctrine had his tastes been for the young men.
Would you be so willing to respect him or his version of the truth if it had been YOU whom had been summoned to his coach....required to give him a pedi cure while he sat naked and then had his member stuck in YOUR mouth??? ...well that is exactly what was happening to your horrified sisters...and much worse......while you guys were recieving your education.
Put your self in their place and for just a brief moment imagine the shame....
Would it have made any difference?
Would he STILL be a trustworthey representative of *truth*?
I think the honest answere is no.....if he was untrustworthey with something as basic as love, moral decency and character...every aspect of his teachings are untrustworthy.....every truth is tainted....
the Good word that was stolen from bg leanard is a HUGE deal because it lent legitimacy to a man who was not spiritual.
He built our trust on that word that was stolen and thus lent legitimacythat he hadn`t earned to his personal crazy doctrines that hurt people.
Is this not how false prophets work?
They have to be close enough to the real thing to fool the believers.....
If wierwille had relied on the fruits of his own labor.....we would have all recognised him a little quicker I think...instead he had to hide himself behind anothers life work.
And to others who may care to listen, I believe it was the disobedience to God's Word that we learned in PFAL that caused the bad fruit of hurt lives, not the information in PFAL that caused it
I care to listen, and understand your point, I just don't agree. I believe that while there was some good stuff in PFAL, the seeds for abuse were planted right there in the class; one example is the "every woman belongs to the king" b.s. - my opinion is that PFAL was designed, not as a vehicle to help peoiple, but as a vehicle to control people, any helpful aspects were part of the bait.
Oh bull&$*#. That statement in the class was simply an effort to show the cultural differences between our times and the times of King David. The fact was, at that time, the King did have those priveledges, right or wrong as they may have been. You gotta have a better argument than that bro...
Oh bull&$*#. That statement in the class was simply an effort to show the cultural differences between our times and the times of King David. The fact was, at that time, the King did have those priveledges, right or wrong as they may have been. You gotta have a better argument than that bro...
Please cite the exact verse that entitled a king-under the Mosaic Law-
to "all the women in the kingdom",
including-since this was the SPECIFIC example being explained-
women who were already married.
If "technically" (as vpw said) this was true, then "technically" Nathan would have
had NO grounds to confront David.
As it was, he did-David violated some of the 10 Commandments here.
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife..."
I can get the exact verses for that if you need them.
Oh bull&$*#. That statement in the class was simply an effort to show the cultural differences between our times and the times of King David. The fact was, at that time, the King did have those priveledges, right or wrong as they may have been. You gotta have a better argument than that bro...
Whoa! Did I accidently step on your pecker or something to rate that bullshirt response?
We may disagree as to the purpose of including that remark in the class, but there is no argument as to its inaccuracy. There is no part of the O.T. law that gives the king the right to all the women in the kingdom, "technically" or otherwise, and the prohibition against adultery specifically would argue against it. Granted, there have been times and places where the droit de signeur was the custom, but one can hardly argue that a culture where "God's Law" was the law of the land was one of them.
There is simply no evidence outside of Wierwille's statement in PFAL that "all of the women belong to the king".
So, no, I don't need a better argument than that "bro" - we may reasonably disagree on why Wierwille included that remark, but it's wrong, unless you have something to prove me wrong.
This does, however, illustrate another point about PFAL: Wierwille's propensity for pulling things like this out of his ear, or citing "old documents" that no one else has ever seen to make his point. For a guy who claimed he was showing us how to research the bible on our own, he sure made a lot of undocumented statements.
This does, however, illustrate another point about PFAL: Wierwille's propensity for pulling things like this out of his ear, or citing "old documents" that no one else has ever seen to make his point. For a guy who claimed he was showing us how to research the bible on our own, he sure made a lot of undocumented statements.
Thanks Oakspear and WordWolf....
Challenging and DISMANTLING wierwille's statements in pfal is so needful.........since so many of us have heard the drumming in our ears for decades.
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Belle
This one, too. :) For some questions that have been asked recently.
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know,
I just gotta say this: It certainly does appear to me that VPW took verbatim from other men's works. Personally, I do not really give a doodly damn. The things in the class that were a blessing to me, regardless of where they came from were, and still are, a blessing to me.
I do not thnk that the argument that "you shall know them by their fruits" is a good way to prove that The Way was evil though, as was outlined in the second post.
For, so many many of us here are that fruit! You and I have read it over and over again where so many people from the past have been praised up one side and down the other for "the wonderful love of God that they had in their heart", and how they were so "willing to do anything for the believers". Just look at the thread about the Way Corps and the "good ones" that you've known. Or there is a thread about good times at the Rock, just filled with fond memories. And, in the "In Memorium" thread, there have been so many wonderful things said aout these wonderful people who have now fallen asleep that it rather amazes me. It amazes me because in one thread, TWI is/was a ministry of hate and abuse, but on another thread it is/was the place where so many people had some of the finest times of their lives!
I have been roasted for saying positive things here about The Way, and have been challenged by those who disagree with me and say that; "it wasn't The Way or it's leaders that were good, but rather the people in the ministry that were good". Well, these good people spoken of are the fruits of VPWs ministry. You are-we are, whether we like it or not.
And so, to use this argument that there was bad fruit from the PFAL class, therefore the class was bad, I think is a poor argument for the purpose of discrediting the class. Hey, I am a fruit of it, and so were all of you! Are you bad?
And so, I want to tell you that I in no way defend the sexual abuse and the mental abuse that occurred in The Way. I do believe it happened, and that it was wrong, is off the Word, it hurt people, and that the perpetrators were hypocrytical.
But, honestly, and I do not mean to pick a fight here, but, why is it that the "evil minions" of The Way are reviled with reckless abandon on one thread, but then praised up one side and down the other in the In Memorium thread as was the case with ex VP Donald Earnst and many others who have passed on? I mean it does seem to be a huge dichotomy, doesn't it?
I would think that some Psychologist dissecting this site might think that we in this group here are loaded up with a lot of major inconsistencies. Or, that studying this site might be a good basis for a thesis for a doctorate in psychology...
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rascal
I dunno Johnnie...if Y`all are the *fruit* of this ministry ..... In all humble honesty I have to ask you .... What the he-- does that make the equal number or greater of folks who were devistated in one way or another by this very same ministry?
Do we not count?
Are hearts and lives destroyed not considered putrid fruit?
Where do we fit in your analogy?
If the scriptures say that a GOOD tree can not bring forth corrupt fruit.......on the surface that would appear to disqualify twi right then and there....
The suffering endured by so many seems inconsequential in the *fruit* count.. it feels like we were inconsequencial in the grand scheme of things....and therefor inconsequencial to God.
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rascal
Plagerism is theft plain and simple.....talk about trees and fruit......
How are you going to have good fruit from something that was dishonest at the very conception....SURE the information was good tha he stole...from a man who gives every evidence of being of the *spirit*...
But then you have a man who`s actions were definatly in the *flesh* catagory* ...he mixes good doctrine with bad in order to support and give credence for some of his pet perversions.......
The way I see it.....you have a crook using some good materials that support some really bad doctrine.....that is a recipe for disaster.
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Raf
Okay.
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GrouchoMarxJr
In response to jonny's post...
Ask yourself this question:
Who were the people who took pfal and became committed to twi?
I believe that those folks were searching for answers...people whose hearts were inclined towards God and desired to do the right thing. Thousands upon thousands of us. Most of us were kind and decent people before we joined. It's true that many of the "recruits" became corrupt as they climbed the waytree but most of the rank and file remained kind and decent.
Speaking only for myself, I was raised in a Christian home and learned about the love of God from my mother. I had a biblical foundation of truth laid in my life before I ever heard of twi. It's true that I learned a lot of bible from twi (some was accurate some was not)...but I do not consider my life to be the fruit of Veepee Wierwille's ministry. Twi was a stepping stone along the journey of life. I doubt that my life would be all that different today had I never heard of twi.
So... When we look at twi in hindsight, you can look at the lives of thousands of people who were really great people...people who loved God and treated others with respect and kindness. I suppose you could look at any Christian ministry and see similar types of people as well. The question is whether all the great folks in twi were great because of Veepee's ministry...or...because they were great folks that just happened to sit through pfal.
Even as I don't blame Wierwille for my own personal sins, I also don't give him credit for the good qualities about my life either. Did Wierwille's ministry impact my life?
Yes, it cheated me out of 13 years of my life when I could have been finishing college and building a secular career...it filled my head with some very wrong and destructive doctrines...it alienated me from my family and friends...and in the final analysis, they rewarded my faithfulness with callous indifference.
What Wierwille had to offer, I could have found in other places. The years that I gave to twi only served to bolster their bank account and their egos. The pfal class is discredited not because of the fruit it produced but because it was loaded with error.
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J0nny Ling0
Rascal,
Ya know, there may be a majority of people here at this site who were hurt by TWI. But, you know, there are thousands of others at other websites who are thankful for their time spent in The Way and are sad that it all fell apart. http://eph320.com/ is one place where there are many many who don't view it as a ministry that "destroyed their lives". There are people in CFF who view TWI One as something that was good and wonderful. There are those with CES who view TWI One as something that was a big blessing to their lives that started out good and then went sour due to your basic idolatry, as well as many others. I know a guy who is over in India who is still running the PFAL class in the Hindu language who goes about teaching and converting Hindus and Sikhs to the redemption that is found through Jesus Christ our lord. It's almost weird when I get e-mails from him, because it's like he's in a "time warp". When the Way went down, he just kept on keeping on with no allegience to anyone. And man! You should hear the stories of deliverance! It blows my mind the things he is doing there with "old Way doctrine". In fact, a friend of mine's eighteen year old son is now over there, and he sends thes fantastic e-mails about the blind seeing and the dead being raised, and all kinds of "Ist Century Church In The 21st" kind of stuff. I wonder if he relays the story of "Punjab Jump Up" when he runs the class in Hindi...
And this guy's first real introduction to the Bible came via PFAL at an American university when he first came over to study from India. And this guy is as pure as the driven snow. And to me, just he alone was a beautiful fruit from TWI that has become a fantastic blessing to many thousands in poverty stricken India...
And yes, he has progressed in doctrine well beyond TWI, but has held fast to the good and discarded the bad.
And so, I don't think that the "bad fruit thing" is the best way to discredit PFAL, that's all. And there are many here who have posted that they had great times in The Way and are glad of their involvement. I just got PM'd by two of them this morning and would do it again if they had the chance. But of course these folks take the easy road when they post so they don't come under the normal ridicule that follows when positives are spoken. Well gee now, that kinda speaks volumes now that I think about it. They really liked their time in The Way, but don't really want to mention it publicly because they don't want to be blasted for it. That seems to say something about the "broad minded thinking" of those who blast...
Groucho, sorry I didn't respond to your post. I didn't read it through yet. You kinda snuck it in there when I was contemplating this reply...
And once again, why is there what appears to be such a double standard where on the one hand; that The Way's "evil minions" deserve "Death to Smoochy" for supporting and promoting a ministry of evil even if they weren't the actual perpetrators? But on the other hand when they are talked about on an individual basis at a "happy thread", or sadly at the In Memorium thread, they are revered as wonderful men and women of God full of so much love and believing? I dunno, it does seem a bit contradictory to me, that's all...
The plagerism thing is a better point if you want to pick at it.
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oldiesman
Thanks for your comments Jonny.
Happy Christ relo Merry Ho HO Christmas
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rascal
The contradiction is....fruit....
In order to say the way and pfal was a tree that brought forth good fruit.....one has to say that the bad fruit didn`t exist....a tree cannot bring forth both according to the scriptural analogy.
So you want to blythly go on touting your way experience and the people you knew as good fruit of the ministry and pfal.........reminiscing about your corpes days like it was some kind of rowdy frat party most of the time......
BUT...to do so completely ignores the putrid fruit of destroyed lives....it cannot exist according to the analogy.
I think that the context of your good times and great friends would have to be something entirely set apart from the fruit of twi and pfal....
It was your buddies and your experiences....your spirituality......good fruit .....verses twi and it`s harmfull doctrines hidden in the good, twi`s leaders who justified abuse of their power and authority, were successfully hidden behind the good leaders of character and integrety...that genuinely tried to help.......THESE are the fruit of twi
Maybe we are talking about two different trees and entirely different situations.
Just because Johnny had fun, doesn`t mean twi was a spiritually wholesom place....... Just like the good doctrine of bg leonard was a vehicle that carried the damaging doctrine in pfal....the good folks were the cover and momentum that permitted the evil practitioners to sneak in and destroy from behind the scenes.
When LCM ran out the good folks the ones with enough charcater and integrety to not accept the atrocious behavior when confronted with his line drawn in the sand....there was litteraly nothing left to disguise the evil practiced anymore.....and twi is folding because of it.
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J0nny Ling0
Jonny the frat boy had fun...That's it? That is your take on me? Okay, think what you want...
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rascal
Johnny if THAT is all you understood from my post then I have wasted your time and mine...I am sorry and certainly will not trouble you again.
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WhiteDove
Hey Johnny Frat Boy
I have one word for you TOGA..........
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J0nny Ling0
Oh sorry Rascal,
I guess your name calling sorta "tainted" the wisdom in your message. I guess there is no need for me to converse with you either...
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J0nny Ling0
And to others who may care to listen, I believe it was the disobedience to God's Word that we learned in PFAL that caused the bad fruit of hurt lives, not the information in PFAL that caused it. It was the people who ignored and lived their lives in contradiction to I Corinthinas 13 (the love of God chapter) which was also included in PFAL. Just like it was King David the human being who disobeyed God's commandment of "thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, thou shalt not kill" who did the harmful things to his people and his kingdom. It wasn't the commandments themselves that did the harm, it was the people who disobeyed those commandments that have caused the hurt through out the centuries. And the same is here with TWI.
But there was plenty of good from from the Word of God that was taught in The Way, and amazingly, VPW did a lot of teaching of it. There may be a lot of people here in this little microcosm of the GSCafe who believe that it was all evil from beginning to end, and that it was all with the intent of screwing people literally and figuratively from beginning to end, but in reality, these folks who believe this scenario are a minority. Check out www.eph320.com It might make you puke, but, there is a huge amount of people who look back upon their involvement with fondness. Who look at TWI as the ministry that offered them that which saved their lives from wretched defeat, and sometimes sickness and death itself. But I guess since we should judge them for their beliefs, they are just a bunch frolicking frat boys and frat girls....
Look, I have not negated nor denied the negative things that happened to wonderful people at the hands of those disobeying God's commandments who had places of leadership and responsibility. But neither have I negated the good things that I learned in PFAL (plagerized material or not), nor have I negated the wonderful people whom I met during those days who were leaders in responsible positions, and the wonderful times that I had. Personally, I'd rather focus on the positive, for I think it is a far healthier thing to do... :)
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justloafing
I agree with both of you. I too can say I knew a lot of great people in twi and had good times but what I found out about twi in 1999 ruined everything about it. Nope not one damed thing can I think of twi can I say was good.
If the "root" was rotten how could the "leaves" be any good? We as the "leaves" wilted away quick and fell off the tree. It seems with twi tree it bloomed in March but all the "leaves" fell off in May because of the poisen it was being fed by the "root".
twi may have started out well intended but when the MOG could not put it all together by himself he went to plagerizing pafl and claimed it for his own words. So in other words that way tree was dying very quickly after sprouting. Now it is a tree that blooms once every other year. If it was in your yard you would call the tree cutting company and have it cut down, mulch it and put in a toxic waste dump. :)
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rascal
You missed my point plain and simple..... I am sorry that it wasn`t communicated in a manner that was more effective....I think that the thought was valid...how much better though if I had been able to communicate it in a way that you could comprehend and consider......
You have taken offense where none was intended, my bad for not being able to communicate my intention and thoughts better :(
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justloafing
I think your talking to Jonny and not me but none taken here. I do understand what you mean. :)
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doojable
Ya' know guys, nothing screws things up as quickly as a bad analogy.
When Jesus spoke of fruit he was referring to a person and what came of his life. I'm not sure you can make that analogy work when you change the context and make a class the tree and the people its fruit.
The class was a class. To the extent that the Word was taught and received, there was fruit. You can't blame God, or the Word for people's bad actions. Yes plagiarism is stealing, but that is separate from the Word that was in the class.
There is one line in the class the I have found to be almost prophetic - "the deacons don't deak and the elders don't eld" I'm not trying to be light-hearted but if there were truly pastors and they were doing what they were suppposed to do the people would have been guarded.
If people were hurt they are not the rotten fruit. The PAIN they went through was the rotten fruit of the people that inflicted that pain.
I find it amazing that all these years have gone and so much pain has been felt but sometimes we jump for the jugular way too quickly. I can only be reminded of this image I have of everyone trying to to look out for themselves and in the process they step on someone else's toes.
Hey Merry Christmas you guys! Have a gerat holiday with your families and spend some time counting all the blessings you have. if you've been hurt or injured, thank God that you got out and that you can keep on healing. We should be praying for each other and not attacking each other. Otherwise we get too close to the old days of M& A ....
Anyways - just kiss and make up - ok?
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rascal
Lol...just my lack of communication skills at work yet again Just loafing....thank you for understanding...I did indeed mean to address my comments to Mr. Lingo.
Guess I will dig my hole yet even deeper by trying to elaborate on my point...sigh
As far as the rowdy frat party jibe......that is simply what your reminisces have reminded me of...I didn`t really mean to get you mad......the stories all seem light hearted and to revolve around johnny n his buds having fun, flaunting the stuffy authority...able to outsmart the estabishment...even make em look stupid once in a while.......johnny had a good time ....so did his friends in spite of the creeps in charge.......kindda reminded me of the movie animal house...in a GOOD way. ......
So anyway....the criteria for twi/pfal as a tree and the fruit that the tree produced is that it HAD to be good because Johnny and his buddies were the representative good fruit.....in my mind.....it stands to reason that the people who were hurt were either fruit as well...or not important enough to be part of the tree period....
So Johnny has fun ...learns bunches...is successfull.....learns some scripture that helps him....meanwhile his sweet sisters who`s hearts were just as dedicated ....who`s commitments were every bit as earnest as his, their desire to serve God ..........were being groomed for something else besides teaching at sunday night service and running twigs.....they are learning that their primary spiritual responsibility required is to service the filthy old b-stards that were running that nut house :(
Now it is funny, but If God was there.....and the criteria being that Johnny got blessed....that means that the girls who`s call to service involved other areas of responsibility.....were not
I often wonder how differently peoples opinions would have been of wierwilles classes and doctrine had his tastes been for the young men.
Would you be so willing to respect him or his version of the truth if it had been YOU whom had been summoned to his coach....required to give him a pedi cure while he sat naked and then had his member stuck in YOUR mouth??? ...well that is exactly what was happening to your horrified sisters...and much worse......while you guys were recieving your education.
Put your self in their place and for just a brief moment imagine the shame....
Would it have made any difference?
Would he STILL be a trustworthey representative of *truth*?
I think the honest answere is no.....if he was untrustworthey with something as basic as love, moral decency and character...every aspect of his teachings are untrustworthy.....every truth is tainted....
the Good word that was stolen from bg leanard is a HUGE deal because it lent legitimacy to a man who was not spiritual.
He built our trust on that word that was stolen and thus lent legitimacythat he hadn`t earned to his personal crazy doctrines that hurt people.
Is this not how false prophets work?
They have to be close enough to the real thing to fool the believers.....
If wierwille had relied on the fruits of his own labor.....we would have all recognised him a little quicker I think...instead he had to hide himself behind anothers life work.
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Oakspear
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J0nny Ling0
Oh bull&$*#. That statement in the class was simply an effort to show the cultural differences between our times and the times of King David. The fact was, at that time, the King did have those priveledges, right or wrong as they may have been. You gotta have a better argument than that bro...
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WordWolf
Please cite the exact verse that entitled a king-under the Mosaic Law-
to "all the women in the kingdom",
including-since this was the SPECIFIC example being explained-
women who were already married.
If "technically" (as vpw said) this was true, then "technically" Nathan would have
had NO grounds to confront David.
As it was, he did-David violated some of the 10 Commandments here.
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife..."
I can get the exact verses for that if you need them.
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Oakspear
We may disagree as to the purpose of including that remark in the class, but there is no argument as to its inaccuracy. There is no part of the O.T. law that gives the king the right to all the women in the kingdom, "technically" or otherwise, and the prohibition against adultery specifically would argue against it. Granted, there have been times and places where the droit de signeur was the custom, but one can hardly argue that a culture where "God's Law" was the law of the land was one of them.
There is simply no evidence outside of Wierwille's statement in PFAL that "all of the women belong to the king".
So, no, I don't need a better argument than that "bro" - we may reasonably disagree on why Wierwille included that remark, but it's wrong, unless you have something to prove me wrong.
This does, however, illustrate another point about PFAL: Wierwille's propensity for pulling things like this out of his ear, or citing "old documents" that no one else has ever seen to make his point. For a guy who claimed he was showing us how to research the bible on our own, he sure made a lot of undocumented statements.
Merry Christmas
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skyrider
Thanks Oakspear and WordWolf....
Challenging and DISMANTLING wierwille's statements in pfal is so needful.........since so many of us have heard the drumming in our ears for decades.
It's good to knock out some of those bricks.....
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