There's a variety of opinions on CES/STFI at the Cafe.
In my opinion, they are far less controlling or demanding than TWI. I've never felt pressured by them to do anything, give anything, or believe anything (beyond the normal "pressure" that comes from being part of a faith community). I have my disagreements with them and have never, not once, been told to drop my disagreements or drop my involvement.
On giving: they believe in free-will offerings and they do NOT believe that tithing is necessary in the church.
Have to admit that you have a point. It would probably earn a blank stare from many folks. Or worse. It probably clicks for PFAL/WOBP grads. Not that I have a better title for a ministry that doesn't sound like a cliche'.
There's a variety of opinions on CES/STFI at the Cafe.
In my opinion, they are far less controlling or demanding than TWI. I've never felt pressured by them to do anything, give anything, or believe anything (beyond the normal "pressure" that comes from being part of a faith community). I have my disagreements with them and have never, not once, been told to drop my disagreements or drop my involvement.
On giving: they believe in free-will offerings and they do NOT believe that tithing is necessary in the church.
I have other thoughts: write me privately.
listen to yourself... it was all 'free-will' offering in TWI !!!
should we go out in the way woods at night for a private meeting?
is there a normal pressure tolerence level exclusive to TWIster Sisters?
ok, i've said enuf
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on December 17, 2003 at 17:37.]
No it wasn't! It was made to look like that, but we all know that God would not spit in our direction unless we shelled out a certain %. If we thought it was "free will" we were kidding ourselves.
They supervised our budget and made sure a certain % was the first thing listed. They had a guaranteed predictable income and if your name did not appear on a blue form periodically next to a decent chunk of change you heard about it!
You're simply mistaken to compare giving in TWI to giving in CES.
One laid a guilt trip on you and accused you of robbing God if you gave less than 10 percent. The other tells you to set the amount according to your heart and give whatever you want.
Your bitterness at TWI is causing you to judge CES inappropriately. You're simply wrong to compare the two.
As for this statement:
quote:(beyond the normal "pressure" that comes from being part of a faith community).
You should note that I was not talking about giving, I was talking about the pressure of accepting doctrine, which is a normal thing in any church. Catholics will exert a certain normal amount of pressure on you to accept their doctrine. Pentecostals will. Buddhists will. Every church will. It's normal. That's why I put "pressure" in quotes. To show that CES wants you to agree with them, but that they don't cross the boundaries of normal "church" behavior in doing so.
You know, there's nothing noble about picking a fight and then walking away from it. Noble would be not picking the fight at all, or at least to have an intelligent discussion about your feelings without resorting to juvenile namecalling.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on December 17, 2003 at 19:10.]
If you're going to walk away, walk away. But don't play this "I'm going to walk away just as soon as I play a little bit more playground namecalling, then I'm going to walk away and I really mean it."
I kind of like CES/STFI (yes, the new name is weird). I heard John Scheinheit explaining it at a thing in Mass a month ago and it made sense.
As to tithing: When I was a teen I was pestered and humilitated into tithing as a Baptist. The Methodists do it. The Catholics do it. The Mormons (LDS) do it. It is time to get over it. Unless somehow someone came up with some new way, to enforce the tithing, it has all been done before.
If anything CES/STFI has gone far out of their way, to avoid stepping on anyone's toes. Allowing everyone to teach, and allowing even differing doctrines to be taught. All to prove that no body is building an empire.
Their treatment of a devorced clergy when he attempted to re-marry, is proof alone that they are far overly-sensative to the possibility of clergy mis-conduct.
They are seeking a much 'higher' moral plain, as far as ministrys go.
Even now they require any fellowship leader to submit a signed statement about your personal conduct and the conduct within your fellowship. Just to ensure that all household fellowships, are honest, without greed and without lechery.
They are trying for a 'higher' code of conduct among their fellowships, and they should be given the respect that such effort deserves.
My eldest son has gone to a couple of their teen functions, and he has loved it. He is now going into the Army, so he will not be attending any more of the teen functions. Which saddens him.
All of that said about CES and it's successor group that enveloped it, I think it's kind of a stretch to think the group is any more spiritually "tapped in" to God than anyone else.
Therefore, it becomes a matter of whether you want to hang out with people who have some similar religious background as you, and how close or far from that background/heritage you are comfortable going (IMO).
No pressure unless you ask someone you've known for 20 years from CES to officiate your wedding. Then you have to join, attend meetings, buy tapes and pass a test. Of course , if you're already a member then it's all good.
Did you know marriage is for Christians ONLY (sorry all you jews and muslims but God doesn't recognize your marriage, ask CES) and you have to be able to prove your Christianity first. Don' tell my wife, she thimks we're married.
And that new name is so much MORE culty than CES. Cult is as cult does.
Marriage is just for Christians? I don't recall ever hearing that from anyone at any time.
I won't officiate your wedding unless you join CES? Well, ask Steve! and chinson how I feel about that.
Sign this form if you want to be a fellowship coordinator? They've sent me no such form.
All of this may be because I don't associate myself with CES at the highest involvement level. But I'm surprised to hear a lot of this stuff.
Galen,
Some of the things you cited sound like they are motivated out of a pure heart but can too easily be abused or lead to rampant legalism. I pray CES as an organization (or STFI or whatever) has the integrity to resist the temptation that is certain to come of those efforts.
Is the new name more culty? I'm not really all that comfortable with it yet. Waiting for it to grow on me.
SRTS: If you're going to ask me something, ask me something. If you're going to walk away from the thread, walk away from the thread. Can't have it both ways.
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JustThinking
Rafael,
Are you aware of the reason for the change?
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Raf
The short story is that their orginal mission was not to be a "church" but a clearinghouse for info. Their main goal was publishing books and tapes.
They came to realize that they are a fellowship community with a history and doctrine, and rather than deny that, they embraced it.
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JustThinking
As someone planning his life after TWI, any comments on them?
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Tom Strange
"Spirit and Truth Fellowship" ????
what in the wide wide world of sports kind of name is that?
sounds kinda spooky if ya ask me!
(also kinda high minded)
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Raf
There's a variety of opinions on CES/STFI at the Cafe.
In my opinion, they are far less controlling or demanding than TWI. I've never felt pressured by them to do anything, give anything, or believe anything (beyond the normal "pressure" that comes from being part of a faith community). I have my disagreements with them and have never, not once, been told to drop my disagreements or drop my involvement.
On giving: they believe in free-will offerings and they do NOT believe that tithing is necessary in the church.
I have other thoughts: write me privately.
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JustThinking
Rafael,
I will post privately.
Tom,
Have to admit that you have a point. It would probably earn a blank stare from many folks. Or worse. It probably clicks for PFAL/WOBP grads. Not that I have a better title for a ministry that doesn't sound like a cliche'.
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excathedra
?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
listen to yourself... it was all 'free-will' offering in TWI !!!
should we go out in the way woods at night for a private meeting?
is there a normal pressure tolerence level exclusive to TWIster Sisters?
ok, i've said enuf
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on December 17, 2003 at 17:37.]
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excathedra
damn right
?
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krys
No it wasn't! It was made to look like that, but we all know that God would not spit in our direction unless we shelled out a certain %. If we thought it was "free will" we were kidding ourselves.
They supervised our budget and made sure a certain % was the first thing listed. They had a guaranteed predictable income and if your name did not appear on a blue form periodically next to a decent chunk of change you heard about it!
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Raf
SRTS:
You're simply mistaken to compare giving in TWI to giving in CES.
One laid a guilt trip on you and accused you of robbing God if you gave less than 10 percent. The other tells you to set the amount according to your heart and give whatever you want.
Your bitterness at TWI is causing you to judge CES inappropriately. You're simply wrong to compare the two.
As for this statement:
You should note that I was not talking about giving, I was talking about the pressure of accepting doctrine, which is a normal thing in any church. Catholics will exert a certain normal amount of pressure on you to accept their doctrine. Pentecostals will. Buddhists will. Every church will. It's normal. That's why I put "pressure" in quotes. To show that CES wants you to agree with them, but that they don't cross the boundaries of normal "church" behavior in doing so.
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Zshot
I think that is not fair, nor rational thinking to lump any/all ?offshoots? in the same category. Let alone in the same category as twi.
Each group should be rated on there own merits (or demerits).
(I am not associated with: CFF/CES/CBC etc?)
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
R9,
I walk away from this thread...
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Raf
Walk away if you want.
You took a cheap shot and you got called on it.
You know, there's nothing noble about picking a fight and then walking away from it. Noble would be not picking the fight at all, or at least to have an intelligent discussion about your feelings without resorting to juvenile namecalling.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on December 17, 2003 at 19:10.]
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
...walking away with my cheap shots rather than the reality of TWIister Sisters...
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Raf
Grow up.
If you're going to walk away, walk away. But don't play this "I'm going to walk away just as soon as I play a little bit more playground namecalling, then I'm going to walk away and I really mean it."
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I was not picking a fight nor being noble, just wondering that you said
"I'm surprised this hasn't come up sooner, as the news has been out for months already no one made mention the name change for a couple of months"...
I suppose that makes a difference to those involved the offshoots of TWI...
walking further away...
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Yo R9, as I was walking away you you did not leave it go...
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Galen
I kind of like CES/STFI (yes, the new name is weird). I heard John Scheinheit explaining it at a thing in Mass a month ago and it made sense.
As to tithing: When I was a teen I was pestered and humilitated into tithing as a Baptist. The Methodists do it. The Catholics do it. The Mormons (LDS) do it. It is time to get over it. Unless somehow someone came up with some new way, to enforce the tithing, it has all been done before.
If anything CES/STFI has gone far out of their way, to avoid stepping on anyone's toes. Allowing everyone to teach, and allowing even differing doctrines to be taught. All to prove that no body is building an empire.
Their treatment of a devorced clergy when he attempted to re-marry, is proof alone that they are far overly-sensative to the possibility of clergy mis-conduct.
They are seeking a much 'higher' moral plain, as far as ministrys go.
Even now they require any fellowship leader to submit a signed statement about your personal conduct and the conduct within your fellowship. Just to ensure that all household fellowships, are honest, without greed and without lechery.
They are trying for a 'higher' code of conduct among their fellowships, and they should be given the respect that such effort deserves.
My eldest son has gone to a couple of their teen functions, and he has loved it. He is now going into the Army, so he will not be attending any more of the teen functions. Which saddens him.
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Rocky
All of that said about CES and it's successor group that enveloped it, I think it's kind of a stretch to think the group is any more spiritually "tapped in" to God than anyone else.
Therefore, it becomes a matter of whether you want to hang out with people who have some similar religious background as you, and how close or far from that background/heritage you are comfortable going (IMO).
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Zshot
Rocky,
You make a good point.
I think we all have "comfort zones" on who and what type of people we want to be around.
I am sure CFF, CES or what ever else group, has some really good people as well as a few "jerks" associated with it.
If anybody wants to "belong" to one of these groups... I hope you find good and kind people.
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Georgio Jessio
No pressure unless you ask someone you've known for 20 years from CES to officiate your wedding. Then you have to join, attend meetings, buy tapes and pass a test. Of course , if you're already a member then it's all good.
Did you know marriage is for Christians ONLY (sorry all you jews and muslims but God doesn't recognize your marriage, ask CES) and you have to be able to prove your Christianity first. Don' tell my wife, she thimks we're married.
And that new name is so much MORE culty than CES. Cult is as cult does.
Glow-ry!
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Raf
So much I've never heard of before:
Marriage is just for Christians? I don't recall ever hearing that from anyone at any time.
I won't officiate your wedding unless you join CES? Well, ask Steve! and chinson how I feel about that.
Sign this form if you want to be a fellowship coordinator? They've sent me no such form.
All of this may be because I don't associate myself with CES at the highest involvement level. But I'm surprised to hear a lot of this stuff.
Galen,
Some of the things you cited sound like they are motivated out of a pure heart but can too easily be abused or lead to rampant legalism. I pray CES as an organization (or STFI or whatever) has the integrity to resist the temptation that is certain to come of those efforts.
Is the new name more culty? I'm not really all that comfortable with it yet. Waiting for it to grow on me.
SRTS: If you're going to ask me something, ask me something. If you're going to walk away from the thread, walk away from the thread. Can't have it both ways.
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TheInvisibleDan
The "Spirit and Truth Fellowship International" - it does have a rather peculiar
clunkiness to it.
Needs to be shortened somehow.
The hendiadys "spirit and truth" could be thus rendered:
"The Spiritual Truth, Mfg."
or
"The Truthful Spirit, Inc."
(lol!)
Whatever.
Danny
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