The Role of the Gift of the Holy Spirit

[sirguessalot]

Hi, Danny.

I think that is an interesting observation.

I can't speak from specific experience (took PFAL in 92), but it seems to me that once someone starts making a platform of anti-divinity (in any sense of the word) and anti-life (i.e. the dead are dead), the frequency of "good magic" decreases, and the frequency of "bad magic" increases.

First, from a point of selfishness (or isolated SELFness).

Second, because every living thing "in the garden" becomes devil spirit activity (to our mind).

"If Jesus Christ is God, than so are we..."

Either strips us of understanding of our own divine form, or delivers from carnal mindedness and seperation from God, depending on how you react to the equation.

...

How can you even be born of spirit if you have not been conceived of spirit?

Jesus lifted the veil of ignorance regarding human divinity.

Our understanding of OURSELVES is what was/is broken, or better - undeveloped.

I've heard it called Christ-consciousness. Or conscious awareness of the spirit of Christ in you. NOT a new thing planted within, but a new thing we metamorph into when we renew our...

Thought itself is a form of light and relationships with it.

Even the critter characters of our DNA emit tiny photon flashes (like candles in the dark). ;)-->

(stay on topic....stay on topic.....stay on topic....)

(roles...roles...roles...)

Light (which God is) moves better through the air than it does through water or stone.

Did you know that our brain uses something like 30% of our oxygen intake (and that is via our automatic breath).

AND, that our human "mind" begins at our tailbone and is the length of our entire spine?

(Not just in our skull).

Biologically, what role does air (spirit) play in things like our spinal fluid, and all the light-producing electrical interactions in our nervous system, our blood, our DNA?

I even read that breathing is the only bodily function that is both autonomous and a "stick-shift". ;)-->

"Wonderfully made," anyone?

Ya know, Jesus himself once asked a man how he expected to grasp heavenly things if he did not grasp earthly things.

"Learn to breath in holiness" was one of the last things he impressed on his students before he destroyed himself again.

When we are born, we go from water-breathing to air-breathing.

In a sense, we are caught in a net and eaten (killed).

Or, our Christ consciousness moves from 9 months of breathing mom's air in the womb (:)-->), to breathing our own air (but still, going straight to a milk diet, again, from Mom).

Born again of pneuma hagion.

:)-->

[This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 13, 2004 at 15:16.]

[Lightside]

Yes, EX10, my reading of John 13-17 is what started me on this quest. Definitely much there.

Dan, I was a WOW when JCING came out, 1975.

The book brought on more pressure and persecution; and more for us to defend. When the persecution hit the ministry, IMHO, it was the way the leadership handled it that caused the miracles to slow down. (hatred and get-even attitudes)

The pressure and the fear not only caused us to lose the power of miracles; but also the operation of the worship manifestations began to decline.

Fear of rejection and confrontation wrecked

a sweet thing.

[alfakat]

Danny--vic taught it ALL along, certainly since '67 and the filming of PFAL. The Way Tree jive and heavy-handed oversight of people with the consequent squelching of the Spirit and spirit of God were what removed signs, miracles and wonders. PFAL, with all it's flaws, was a means to an end early on...folks were focusing on God, Jesus and the Spirit more earlier on. Then the focus moved PFAL to the Desired End and all was sheist, as the Germans might term it...or is it shiest, anyways it was God and the things of God down the toilet. Funny thing is, vic knew it and he just refused to admit why...his sin, his lust, his over-bearing Teutonic nature and backround just killed it...simple as that. Ask anybody who saw it early on and if they are honest, they'll tell ya true. Ask socks, he knows....

[TheInvisibleDan]

Hi Sirguess,

Thank you. I'm in the same position, not having gotten involved with the old gigantic cult until 1978. I was really touched, when speaking to a couple people who had undergone divine healing (akin to the scale of the old sword and sandal days), but some time had passed since their miracles...but it seemed to be old news by the time I came through the door.

God is Good.

Danny

[TheInvisibleDan]

Thank you so much Lightside and Alfakat.

Very interesting!

[year2027]

God

Hi All

Yes thanks Ex10 for puting this here for all to learn from

For I have learn alot and hope to learn more here

Thanks to everyone that added here so I could learn and grow in love

with love Roy

[jezusfreaky]

Didja ever think that through all our experiences with TWI and various other ''religions'' that we over complicated Holy Spirit?

It seems to me He meets me where I am and call me simplistic, but that's good enough for me. I talk, He listens, or I just listen. Either way, I like the conversation! :D-->

Love y'all,

-Colleen

GO VOLS!!

''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''

-Bruce Springsteen

[Greek2me]

Ex,

I've been following with interest and wanted to "chip in" if that's alright. Btw, some really good stuff in here.

Can it be that the three-fold role of the Comforter is essentially one-fold?

The Comforter was sent to reprove the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. In so doing He would guide us into all truth. Christ said that He would "glorify me" (Him). In other words, to glorify Christ by reproving, convicting and guiding us into all truth, is the ultimate role of The Holy Spirit. No question but that this is done by means of having a relationship with Him, one in which Christ is glorified.

That's a long way from TWI doctrine isn't it? You know, "it's god in christ in YOU!"

[waterbuffalo]

Alfakat,

Do you mind if I ask, what did you mean by "shiest or sheist"? I couldn't find it in the dictionary except to possibly mean "shy." That's not what you mean is it?

WB

Asked why he began studying Greek at age 94, Oliver Wendell Holmes replied,"Well, my good sir, it's now or never!"

[fortunateone]

Jesus is alive and sits at the right hand of God. But it does not say he sits there all the time. He might have a busy schedule traveling throughout the world as needed.

The comforter has an agenda also. Talking to people to take care of needs.

The Holy Spirit also has significant responsibilties.

God is in charge.

Apparently there are four active participants,

not just a panel consisting of a trinity.

FORTUNATEONE to be out of TWI

[ex10]

Roy

And thank you for the purity of your heart.

Freaky, yeah, I'm with you, things get too complicated, and I'm lost. -->

And Greek, I'm not sure if I'm following what you mean? Yes, the holy spirit is essentially to glorify Jesus Christ and point to him as Lord. Is that what you mean?

[rascal]

Freaky...AMEN Sistah!!!! that is so profoundly true..

What it all seems to boil down to for me in the lowest common denominator is....am I loving God ??? and ... am I loving my neighbor?

After that ..... all of the rest of lifes dilemas do not seem to matter ...whether there is a trinity or no...are the dead alive or no....are we living in the end times....rapture before or after.....whether fellowship with twi the baptist the catholic... christian...other...all of the questions that plague us ... cause the most heated argument ..and divisions....what ever the answere may be.....in reality ...imo changes our basic responsibility in no way...

p.S. LOVED the pizzeria scenario T Grey....You have us all SO pegged.

[waterbuffalo]

Too Gray,

Ditto from rascal above. You're a really GOOD writer.

THANKS for sharing that!

WB

Asked why he began studying Greek at age 94, Oliver Wendell Holmes replied,"Well, my good sir, it's now or never!"

[alfakat]

wb--we get the Aenglish(English) word from the German...and the word is....... where * stands for i. ;)--> :P--> :D-->

[Too Gray Now]

Thanks WB, and Rascal, and Roy, and... everyone else for the kind words. :D-->

Ex 10: This thread seems to be helping people to express "where they are at" or “what it all boils down to”… I love IT!

You can always find people if you know where they are at... and as I travel I meet sooooo many lonely people – threads like this can help people get connected, IMO.

[ex10]

Too Gray

I love what you have expressed about truth being ephemeral. Most of us are pretty familiar with the concept of "eternal truth" I think. But the idea you have introduced that it can also be fleeting, and last only a moment, that we must reach out and grab it while we can, is so refreshing. I think that's how the holy spirit often works. Our eyes and ears are opened for a brief moment, and it's up to us to pay attention.

[year2027]

God

Hi All

I ask you how do you feel the Comforter which is Jesus Christ ?

1 word of wisdom = by having wisdom about any given thing do you feel comfort

2 word of knowledge = when you have knowledge with understanding do you feel comfort

3 faith = when you read the word of God, hear the word of God or speak the word of God do you feel comfort

4 gifts of healing = when you are heal or you use the gift to healing for another do you feel comfort

5 working of miracles = when you hear or witness miracles in action do you feel comfort

6 prophecy = when you hear or speak the word of prophecy do you feel comfort

7 discerning of spirits = when you know evil from good spirits and know that you are greater than the evil ones do you feel comfort

8 divers kinds of tongues = when you speak in tongues for another do you feel comfort

9 interpretation of tongues = when you hear or speak the interpretation of tongues do you feel comfort

In all these things I feel comfort but some I do better than others

The ones I have grow stronger in I feel more comfort and the ones I am weak in I feel less comfort

Now I believe the comfort is the same in all them but its like when I read I used to fear I would miss quote a word and think its one word when its was another

But now I learn to just read asking God to teach me and help me get better at it

It comes down to I can either trust God or trust the past history of by grades in school

So I trust God now and leave the unneeded past in the past but the past understanding God taught me I keep them by my side

Now I like to bring up the fruits of the spirits

1 love = you can see love in a view = you can hear love in a voice = you can touch love in a back hub = you can feel love in a hug = you can taste love in a kiss

2 joy

3 peace

4 longsuffering

5 gentleness

6 goodness

7 faith

8 meekness

9 temperance

Now in all of the fruits you can see, hear, touch, feel, and taste them

I believe there are natural senses and spiritual senses and to put it simple its in the tone of sound when you hear love in a voice

Now I did not give you an example for all fruits but I am sure some of you can add them here because I wanted to not to get to long as it is long now

with love Roy

[sirguessalot]

I hear you guys on the complexities of holy spirit and other spiritual things.

I see it like this...

Much of Bibledom is pressured to find THE path of rightness.

So, when we speak of spiritual things, we think of it as some sort of do-or-die thing to be attained.

But it is not.

Grasping more and more of the complexity of holy spirit is not a requirement.

But this does not change the fact that the complexity is there.

Like a leaf on a tree.

Its not very hard to define, understand it role, or interact with.

But our initial understanding does not negate the very complex reality of the leaf.

Passionate "leafologists" can spend generations digging deeper and deeper and deeper understanding of a leaf and it complex role.

But non-leaf experts can still enjoy fresh air.

The complexity is there for those who are interested in understanding and sharing it.

The benefits are there for anyone enjoys breathing and beauty and fruit.

Even if they think leaves are worthless.

:)-->

If and when one begins to understand how spiritual things are way more complex than can be measured, the do-or-die mindset may set off alarms.

We might think we somehow have to get it all, right now, or else.

As if grasping it all is a prerequisite for breathing air.

:)-->

Poetic language and imagery bridges the gap.

This is why representation was important to who we consider the master teacher of pneuma hagion.

It saved a lot of time, because it spoke around and alongside complex truths.

By using form as truth, rather than facts and details and proof.

At least VP was a decent parrot regarding this.

He repeated what he had learned about how figures of speech were truer than truth.

Though he got stuck in the carnal mire of do-or-die "accuracy" regarding figures themselves.

That is why I say I believe the role of the comforter is specifically like the role of a mother (but in a purer sense).

We understand a lot of things about motherhood.

And motherhood is strikingly different than fatherhood.

Alhough, obviously, no one has to consider spirit this way, it does serves to deepen the understanding of sexual roles.

Likewise with manifestations and fruit of spirit.

They, too, are more directly understood via figurative language.

Via visualization - which is the medium of visions and dreams and revelations.

Meditation (as the Bible also teaches) involves closing your eyes and visualizing a logos of wisdom.

When we think, do we visualize words on a page from a book?

The word for "tree" may change from age to age, and from culture to culture,

but the SHAPE of a tree (as in an ancient picture) cannot be mistaken.

Sight is the first language of man.

Speech and alphabets came from pictoral representation.

A logos = a form, not just a written "word."

Re: Roles...

Form more directly reveals function, more than any text in anything heard.

And so we may be "off the hook" for becoming book-head geniuses.

If we can understand the divine art of story and song, we can understand the form of divine things - without the complexity (of things like PFAL).

We have not been doomed to be stuck in a do-or-die quest to increase knowledge.

When are learning our first lessons in life, we ask, and we kind of receive an answer.

A form of lesson that helps us jump the gap on our own.

When we are ready.

Understanding the complexity helps and deepens.

It is a good thing to be desired.

But it is not required.

:)-->

[This message was edited by sirguessalot on February 14, 2004 at 21:33.]

[Clicker]

quote:

---

From what I've read in the gospels, Jesus describes the holy spirit as the Comforter and the Counsellor, who will lead, guide, and convict.

In TWI, we were taught that the holy spirit was a gift, that we operated at will.

---

The Holy Spirit is a being, a part of God (as best I can see it). God cannot be "operated" by men, the real living God shapes men and is not shaped by them. To meet Him is the end of all religion and morality. The Holy Spirit is the witness to God when He speaks and our comfort is knowing that we hear Him and not another voice or spirit.

Carol

Carol@hisbodylife.com

[Greek2me]

Ex,

Yes.

Clicker,

"our comfort is knowing that we hear Him and not some other voice or spirit". Very well said. There is great comfort in knowing "the Spirit of truth".

[ex10]

Greek,

Yes, it is a pretty long way from PFAL, thank goodness. ;)-->

Which brings up another question for me. What is the role of the holy spirit in worship? and if the essential role of the holy spirit is to glorify Jesus Christ as Lord, wouldn't that be reflected in worship?

[year2027]

God

Hi Ex10

You said

quote:

---

What is the role of the holy spirit in worship?

---

I think at times we do not understand what God calls worship

For God is like a Father and a Mother and we give honour to our earthly father and mother

We do this by respecting them and loveing them as we fellowship with them one on one

So to be worship is the honour and love we give to them beacuse they loved us first

Now God is the father of all Fathers and the mother of all Mothers and Jesus Christ is the elder brother of all elder Brothers

So I think worship is love and love is worship

Now God is the head of us all but if the tail was leading us we could not see where we are going nor could we understand danger from safey

Now if we worship or love God as head leader like a father or mother than we are safe

Now since Jesus Christ is the comforter than it is the head of the spirit of Christ that we are lead in love by

Some have said that it is Jesus Christ eyes in our eyes

Jesus Christ is our baby sitter and he watches us and hold our hand as he helps us walk in the path of love

with love Roy

[waterbuffalo]

Alfakat,

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .

Thanks,

WB

Asked why he began studying Greek at age 94, Oliver Wendell Holmes replied,"Well, my good sir, it's now or never!"

[jezusfreaky]

Excie...

I don't know if this is a result of ''waybrain'' or Catholic upbringing but, since leaving TWI I've attended a few ''spirit filled'' churches and the whole ''slain in the spirit'', weeping and wailing form of worship just seems a bit staged to me.

Example: There is a man by the name of Rodney Howard Brown, he is a preacher from South Africa that now has a church in Tampa Florida. He calls himself the ''laughing preacher'' or something like that. He came to our church to speak and decided to ''pick'' on my husband. He laid his hands on him, telling him to ''let it bubble out your belly'', meaning laughter. He seemed to get really annoyed when Jake didn't fall out of his chair laughing. Now, I'm not saying that this man doesn't have a ''gift'' but I don't think we should have to ''act'' out for God. If the true worship rises in you, that's fine, but He knows if the worship is sincere.

IMHO I get more ''conversation'' from Him when I fall on my face in worship alone in my own room. Any opinions anyone?

Love y'all,

-Colleen

GO VOLS!!

''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''

-Bruce Springsteen

[dmiller]

Quote ---- "I don't know if this is a result of ''waybrain'' or Catholic upbringing but, since leaving TWI I've attended a few ''spirit filled'' churches and the whole ''slain in the spirit'', weeping and wailing form of worship just seems a bit staged to me."

and also ---- quote

"IMHO I get more ''conversation'' from Him when I fall on my face in worship alone in my own room. Any opinions anyone?"

Jezusfreaky -- a simple answer for you -- Amen!! I agree!! You see things VERY clearly. :)--> May God continue to bless you.