Wow sky, that sure describes our higher twi leaders....um what is pernicious ways anyway?
Sounds like vp n lcm match the *false leaders* catagories to a *T* ...much more so than falling into the catagory of being a brother who *stumbled a little*.
Out of curiosity, does the bible have any advice in dealing with theses guys?
I always thought that 1st Timothy, chapter 6 was appropriate in describing twi leadership...I think it says something like, "depart from them" or "flee from them".
One good thing that came out of my twi experience is that today I have a fully functioning bull.... meter. I see these guys coming from a mile away.
All this that y'all are saying seems so, so - well clear to me now.
So why was I so dad-gummed blind then??
Is it possible that love is REALLY blind? That we loved the bible and each other enough that we just "didn't see" or "wouldn't look at" anything that was WAY OUT OF WACK.?
That stuff in Timothy kind of lets you know that human nature hasn't changed much...
Cult leaders are easy to spot - if you are not in their cult. Seems like Heaven's Gate, Charles Manson, WACO, New Knoxville, etc. Seems like so many of these people couldn't "spot' what they were in.
Agreed....I refused to *see* it. I honestly loved and believed .... I naievely assumed that everyones intentions were as pure.
I don`t know if it was stupidity, neediness, youth...a desire to fight for something good..a combination of all of the above..I want to know what it was that made me vulnerable...I had several close friends that went to those first fellowships with me....what made me gullible to further endoctrination and them steer clear? It is important for me to figure out how and why in order to arm my children....what can I do to empower them to educate them so as to not fall prey to the next scam that comes along?
I have certainly learned to step back and evaluate what is being said before doing much of anything now days. I sleep on it a couple of nights before jumping in. This includes everything from purchases which I think I just can't with out, to advise from people.
I want to know what it was that made me vulnerable...I had several close friends that went to those first fellowships with me....what made me gullible to further endoctrination and them steer clear?
It's not simply a matter of dgrees of gullibility, but in what way did The Way target our vulnerability?
There were very few of my friends and fewer of my relatives who ever attended a Way fellowship. Of the ones who came once and then steered clear, or the ones who read some materials and never came, NOT ONE was able to address any of the doctrinal differences,and only one ever pointed out the potential problems associated with Wierwille's position as MOG. One, a good friend from the fifth grade through college was a WOW in Nebraska the year before I was, and entered the Way Corps.
My vulnerability was that I wanted to know about spiritual things, and nobody that I knew, including leaders in my church could give me anything more than their opinion. Those who didn't fall for TWI's bait were either satisfied with what their church was teaching or didn't care one way or another. I recall my brother telling me that he was amazed that I was involved in that "Jesus and God crap". Anyone who was equipped to counter Wierwille's claims biblically wasn't in my circle.
Where my own stupidity lie was that I didn't get out when I noticed that there were problems. When I noticed inconsistancies in the doctrine, when I saw practical problems, when I became aware of abuses, I stubbornly held on.
Spotting a cult leader should be a lot easier now. I am extremely suspicious of anyone's claims of having the answers.
Because they have heard my stories, I am thinking their CF (cult filter) is up and working.
Grayperson, great way to put it! I wonder, sometimes, if I'm scaring the piddle out of my kids with stories. In fact, I had no intention of telling them word one; why let em see how stupid their parents were eh?
However, my first born was in twi from 8 months until 17 years, so she's no dummy, she just was very sheltered from the poop all those years.
My youngest was part of the mess from birth to age 3, so she's happily oblivious.
Adding a stinky twist is the reality that their late father's entire family is still playing the TWI twister.
I tell them. I finally reached a point where I said "ask me anything you want, what the heck"
I do believe my stories have planted a yuck seed in their smart brains about getting involved in such activity.
They both are very wary of people selling something and both unzip the sheeps attire and peek inside to see just how nasty the wolf is before uttering much, so maybe it's mom's stories or maybe it's just their own good choices.
My thinking is that everyone/anyone is a cult leader of some sort, selling something wonderful that I must have. After a time, if they have the balls and honesty to show me more of themselves; to be normal (whatever that is) then I might trust em. Maybe.
I had several close friends that went to those first fellowships with me....what made me gullible to further endoctrination and them steer clear?
In my experience it was some psychological or emotional need. The best thing you can do for your kids is FIRST do your own "inner work" to see what the specifics were in your case. Then do what you can to raise emotionally healthy kids.
When people are emotionally healthy, even if they have desire to learn spiritual things, they will be put off by scammers and such. It's not just a matter of education - that's all on a conscious and logical level. As important as it is, you can't fight emotion with logic.
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dmiller
To answer you're original question (the title of this thread),
"I think I usta-could" Geez -- is that a Jeff Foxworthy word - *usta-could*?
:D-->
Regardless -- I guess I can't, because I got sucked in by one.
Up here in da nort land, we say *colt litre*, and if'n ya drink enuf of them, it be about the same results as a *cult leader* when yer done.
:D-->
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excathedra
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Danny
Someone that has to talk about there ministry. Hey John thats you.
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skyrider
They're already *spotted*.......and the leopard CANNOT change his *spots.*
Seriously though, profiling a cult leader would resemble lots of what II Peter 2 expounds on false teachers, false prophets.
* damnable heresies
* pernicious ways
* covetousness (covet allegiance)
* make merchandise of you
* judging now
* presumptuous & self-willed
* railing accusations
* speaking evil of dignities
* eyes full of adultery
* cannot cease from sin
* beguiling unstable souls
* an heart of covetous practices
* following the way of Balaam
* love the wages of unrighteousness
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gladtobeout
Danny
You got that right. If a ministry has to boast and brag about how great they are, there's a huge red flag.
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rascal
Wow sky, that sure describes our higher twi leaders....um what is pernicious ways anyway?
Sounds like vp n lcm match the *false leaders* catagories to a *T* ...much more so than falling into the catagory of being a brother who *stumbled a little*.
Out of curiosity, does the bible have any advice in dealing with theses guys?
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GrouchoMarxJr
...pernicious means deadly and destructive.
I always thought that 1st Timothy, chapter 6 was appropriate in describing twi leadership...I think it says something like, "depart from them" or "flee from them".
One good thing that came out of my twi experience is that today I have a fully functioning bull.... meter. I see these guys coming from a mile away.
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Ham
Well... my answer to the million dollar question:
probably better than I used to.
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Too Gray Now
All this that y'all are saying seems so, so - well clear to me now.
So why was I so dad-gummed blind then??
Is it possible that love is REALLY blind? That we loved the bible and each other enough that we just "didn't see" or "wouldn't look at" anything that was WAY OUT OF WACK.?
That stuff in Timothy kind of lets you know that human nature hasn't changed much...
Cult leaders are easy to spot - if you are not in their cult. Seems like Heaven's Gate, Charles Manson, WACO, New Knoxville, etc. Seems like so many of these people couldn't "spot' what they were in.
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rascal
Agreed....I refused to *see* it. I honestly loved and believed .... I naievely assumed that everyones intentions were as pure.
I don`t know if it was stupidity, neediness, youth...a desire to fight for something good..a combination of all of the above..I want to know what it was that made me vulnerable...I had several close friends that went to those first fellowships with me....what made me gullible to further endoctrination and them steer clear? It is important for me to figure out how and why in order to arm my children....what can I do to empower them to educate them so as to not fall prey to the next scam that comes along?
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Too Gray Now
Rascal,
Yup..
Me too!
I got kids. Willthey face a different Cult Leader?
I don't think so. Because they have heard my stories, I am thinking their CF (cult filter) is up and working.
I am a die hard man of faith... in that I look for... THE city. (the city whose builder and maker is God, which is filled with Peace and love, etc...)
But I am also Too Gray. It ain't gonna happen!!
Nice thing... But...
Frankly, if I give up on the POSSIBILITY that we can love one another...
Life is not worth living.
So I am
A
Good prospect for a cult...
even now, I guess
:o-->
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Stayed Too Long
I have certainly learned to step back and evaluate what is being said before doing much of anything now days. I sleep on it a couple of nights before jumping in. This includes everything from purchases which I think I just can't with out, to advise from people.
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Oakspear
There were very few of my friends and fewer of my relatives who ever attended a Way fellowship. Of the ones who came once and then steered clear, or the ones who read some materials and never came, NOT ONE was able to address any of the doctrinal differences,and only one ever pointed out the potential problems associated with Wierwille's position as MOG. One, a good friend from the fifth grade through college was a WOW in Nebraska the year before I was, and entered the Way Corps.
My vulnerability was that I wanted to know about spiritual things, and nobody that I knew, including leaders in my church could give me anything more than their opinion. Those who didn't fall for TWI's bait were either satisfied with what their church was teaching or didn't care one way or another. I recall my brother telling me that he was amazed that I was involved in that "Jesus and God crap". Anyone who was equipped to counter Wierwille's claims biblically wasn't in my circle.
Where my own stupidity lie was that I didn't get out when I noticed that there were problems. When I noticed inconsistancies in the doctrine, when I saw practical problems, when I became aware of abuses, I stubbornly held on.
Spotting a cult leader should be a lot easier now. I am extremely suspicious of anyone's claims of having the answers.
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Shellon
Grayperson, great way to put it! I wonder, sometimes, if I'm scaring the piddle out of my kids with stories. In fact, I had no intention of telling them word one; why let em see how stupid their parents were eh?
However, my first born was in twi from 8 months until 17 years, so she's no dummy, she just was very sheltered from the poop all those years.
My youngest was part of the mess from birth to age 3, so she's happily oblivious.
Adding a stinky twist is the reality that their late father's entire family is still playing the TWI twister.
I tell them. I finally reached a point where I said "ask me anything you want, what the heck"
I do believe my stories have planted a yuck seed in their smart brains about getting involved in such activity.
They both are very wary of people selling something and both unzip the sheeps attire and peek inside to see just how nasty the wolf is before uttering much, so maybe it's mom's stories or maybe it's just their own good choices.
My thinking is that everyone/anyone is a cult leader of some sort, selling something wonderful that I must have. After a time, if they have the balls and honesty to show me more of themselves; to be normal (whatever that is) then I might trust em. Maybe.
This much.
.
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ex70sHouston
How to spot a cult leader?
1. They are the only one with a special word from God.
2. They demand complete and total loyalty.
3. They demand that you give up everything for them.
4. If you question anything you are the devil/advasery.
5. They will try and separate you from family and friends.
6. Their teachings start close to what you knew and steadly get farther and farther from the truth.
7. They teach a message that changes with time.
What I have learned is that if a leader demands anything but love for God. Run don't walk for the exit.
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Too Gray Now
I think this might have "GreaseSpot Gems" written on it.
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My3Cents
In my experience it was some psychological or emotional need. The best thing you can do for your kids is FIRST do your own "inner work" to see what the specifics were in your case. Then do what you can to raise emotionally healthy kids.
When people are emotionally healthy, even if they have desire to learn spiritual things, they will be put off by scammers and such. It's not just a matter of education - that's all on a conscious and logical level. As important as it is, you can't fight emotion with logic.
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