I'm on lunchbreak from work, because my schedule is extremely casual, except for home appointments, which are nill in the winter after Christmas.
Plus I have a lot of office cleanup and straightening I'm doing as I wait for downloads. That counts as work, doesn't it?
I've only been posting for less than two weeks, but it REALLY IS cutting into my study time, I admit it.
I can make my own hours to a large degree since I work a lot of 24/7 type convienience stores.
Tell me, DATWAY, did you pick up your skill of grilling people as to how they spend their free-time and work-time from TWI-2 or did you get by revelation from the same god they got it from?
Are you going to ask about my finances and abundant sharing next?
If so I rent an apartment.
But plese don't ask me about my credit card or car? Deal?
Rafael wrote: “I was under the impression from your earlier posts that Wierwille had finished his work and was ready to die. Yet now you make it clear that there was a major portion of his work that was left undone. So, which is it?â€
Rafael, I think you’re assuming that the undone work was Dr’s to do. If Dr was operating by an abundance revelation (not in every phase of his life but in the work God gave him) THEN Dr would be able to discern with exactitude which specific tasks God gave him and to which tasks God said “No, that’s someone else’s job.â€
That dichotomy, being none of our business to begin with, may blur 5-senses wise as we look at it through the ravages of time and/or other minor handicaps, like not even being there. This minor handicap I suffer from because I was 2000 miles away during that final period.
You may have been around long enough to remember that Dr OFTEN taught on this work sharing dichotomy. Jesus scolded one disciple for wondering about someone else’s’ work assignment once. The Gospels of Mark and Luke are a marvel of this ultra-compartmentalization of work tasks that God used as a rule, not an exception. Mark and Luke were travelling companions with Paul YET the Mystery teaching of Paul’s was not in their compartments. Paul was shown a revelation of the Third Heaven, YET forbidden to teach on the details of it, because God had assigned that job to John. Sometimes there IS no one God can trust with a needed job and it goes undone until someone rises up. This kine of rising up is what WE are supposed to do. And HOW do we do it, oh,.. the HOW of that job we face was the topic of ..... Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching.
Ta DA! We’re back on thread.
I think Dr finished the job God gave him.
I’ve now got to finish the job God gave me for this afternoon, because I’m on a squeegee mission for God.
Zix, for myself, I’m simply not trying to master the AC. If you want more detail as to how to deal with it’s status, I suggest you get down to serious mastery of the collaterals. Then and only then will you get to “all nine all the time,†and then you can ask God for your answer.
If you think you can skip around the collaterals and ask, I think you’re asking for trouble. The devil can counterfeit God’s voice so well that only a master can tell them apart. The past 2000 years of failure at “all nine all the time†shows me it’s useless to try and “5-senses†my way in an end run around the devil’s defenses. He’s smarter than any 5-senses researcher. Look what he did to Bullinger regarding SIT. A mere 5-senses researcher NEEDS the extra boost of revelation to get through all the confusion that the arch intellectual devil has erected.
Do you see the catch-22 here? The 5-senses researcher is trying to learn the difference between God and His counterfeit, but in order to learn this he must be able to ALREADY tell the difference to obtain and hear the needed extra boost God’s voice will give him over the devil’s smarts.
The only way out of this 2000 year (at least) old vicious cycle is God has step in. That’s what the 1942 promise was and is. And that project of fixing His Word that God initiated was basically finished after 40 years of Him working with Dr. This is stated by Dr as his last words to Craig at Craig’s installation, and it’s on the same tape I quoted on the “News Flash!†thread about Craig’s non-spiritual installation.
Another thing the rare “spiritually boosted researcher†needs is the courage to face the fire of tradition and it’s many, many vehement adherents.
God has had to OFTEN wait a long time for JUST the right individual with these unique characteristics (super diligent in 5-senses work, super meek to God ONLY, and willing to take on the war with tradition with gusto) to come along for many of the job HE wanted done. Examples: Moses, John the Baptist, Mary. As far as the job of restoring God’s Word (like in Jer.36) it took 2000 years for God to find BOTH a tough ornery contrarian crowd like us to believe, and a tough ornery contrarian like Dr to teach us.
Whatever happened to "scientific exactness and mathematical precision"?
Nowhere in the collaterals are the revelation and impartation manifestations explored with a view towards their proper operation. That was supposed to be the Advanced Class, which you do not feel needs to be mastered. Had the collaterals been sufficient, the Advanced Class would have been unnecessary.
Yet, you claim the only way we can see through all the errors in the modern Bible is via revelation from God. The paradox is that now researchers have to operate without an absolute knowledge of the operation of the revelation manifestations. If no revelation=no true Bible, and no instruction=no revelation, you've effectively removed all hope of being able to accurately interpret the Word according to your standards. That's horribly bad science.
Another thing. One of the most basic keys to biblical interpretation that Dr. Wierwille taught was to get to whom it was written straight. Reading your transcipt of the Last Teaching, it is primarily addressed to the Country Coordinators, and only secondarily addressed to believers in general. That makes it his last teaching specifically only for Country Coordinators. Dr. Wierwille knew his true, public Last Teaching would be tape #1275, "The Hope". It was addressed to all believers, and is his final message to TWI assembled. Therefore, unless you are a Country Coordinator, the advice to master the FC, IC, and collaterals is not an absolute final mandate. Look to The Hope for that.
The Adversary has put a subtle set of blinders on you, Mike, getting you to focus on something that isn't specifically addressed to you so you won't realize the truth. Any idea or doctrine that imprisons you such is of the devil.
Why haven't you mastered "Release From Your Prisons" yet?
I reject any quotations of Scripture from you: they lack authority in your eyes, and therefore cannot be used by you to prove your point.
Further, please stop trying to convince me. I've made up my mind and unless you are going to be meek to my position, I need to save my energy for people who will be meek to it. It's one thing if you want to listen, but if you're going to try to convince ME to change MY mind, you've got another thing coming.
I have a feeling you believe your are only here at the GSC to call out the lost sheep of the house of Wierwille, of which, I am not (TWI 92-97) - but why don't you at least throw me a freakin' bone!
You inspired some questions from me, and I responded to some of your posts, and even sent you a few emails, yet you have completely avoided addressing any of them.
Am I at the bottom of your list of potential followers or sumthin?
Do I lack the TWI pedigree you seek for your new group, based on DR's last teaching?
Honestly, I'm not whining for attention. It just looks like what I thought I was seeing is just turning out to be you spiritually masturbating (now that the miserable comforters have failed).
I never sat at the feet of your master, but I spent many years of hours cracking open Vic's works and methods til the wee hours, while everyone else around me seemed busy parroting dogma. My results were often less than popular, because I refused to use Wayspeak when explaining them.
Anyway, respond to an e-mail if you like. But I'm becoming less and less interested in what you have to say as the clock ticks by. And I'm less interested in a public dialogue with you.
A few more weeks or days, and I'll be gone as usual for a year or so. If GSC is still here when I get back (and I'm willing to bet it will be), my hope is that you'll have met a simpler God.
One last thing...
Will you not at least concede for a moment and admit that it is possible that VPW was not the creator's latest greatest spokesperson to come along in 2000 years?
Is it possible, Mike?
I think you've said that you have answered this before, and I believe you. But will you not do it again for a new crowd, a new day, a new time? A renewal?
Really, you don't have to be so afraid to be wrong again. You have a net, remember?
I'll leave yer thread now.
Find me elswhere if yer interested.
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on January 06, 2003 at 14:05.]
In the class Dr challenges us to read nothing but the epistles that are addressed to us for 3 months. At that time that meant KJV reading. Many, many other KJV readings and retemories were encouraged back then. This was part of our background, the basis in which to understand to the collaterals.
The KJV is an approximation of the original scriptures. The original understanding is the goal, the KJV is like a puzzle that needed to be “solved†or partially fixed. This would give us right dividing skills we could later apply to the collaterals. The KJV was a difficult puzzle in this respect, and no one was able to complete it, but it did teach us much, even as an approximation.
The collaterals are a MUCH easier read, even though right dividing is still required. I look at the much time we were told (by revelation) to spend in the KJV like the ankle and wrist weights a runner uses in training. When the BIG RACE finally arrives, the weights are removed and the runner flies through the air with the real God-breathed Word.
Since Dr was taught by God to lead us through the KJV so much, I'd say from that standpoint there's got to be some veracity there, even in raw KJV approximate form.
Many things changed in the period from 1976 to '85, especially in '82. After this 1982 the removal of the ankle weights was supposed to start happening, but it didn’t. By that time the top leadership was well practiced at “yessing†Dr to death and not really listening to his EXACT words he was getting from God. This is abundantly proved by the record. Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching was the last in a series of ignored instructions. Some people tried some of his suggestions, but eventually they pooped out and went with the prevailing winds.
I still am seeing lots of KJV verses on every page of Dr’s books. Yes, you say, I’m missing a lot of them too. Many verses were not part of the grand 40+ year project of God teaching Dr and Dr teaching us, and did not get covered by my own private reading and research. I simply place these verses on the lower priority list for focus.
If God deemed those verses to be not part of that 40+ year project with Dr and they didn’t make it into his books, then I’m not going to be running into them in my efforts to master the collaterals. Is this a fatal situation? I think not.
You all must decide on a yearly basis which verses you won’t be reading in your KJVs, unless you happen to be a prolific reader, but even still focused research of all the KJV in one year is impossible for any human. All of life demands that we decide which things are going to get done and which are not. I feel much less at risk if I stick with GOD’S decision as to which verses don’t make it into my high focus cirriculum THIS year, and the next several, until I’m done mastering. THEN, after PFAL mastery I’m in a much better position to work with any of the temporarily “lost†verses God wants me to get back into.
Do I feel it’s OK for me to read my KJV some before mastery BEFORE I’m finished mastering? Most definitely YES! But in moderation, not detracting from my main project of mastery. When I see verses covered in PFAL in my KJV and I want to focus in on them I go to Dr’s scripture index and look them up to see how God taught him to teach them to me. Then I can get God’s perspective on those verses, and not be cluttered with my own non-master opinions.
Right now I OFTEN go to my KJV to get a contextual flow overview for passages I’m studying in Dr’s books.
When I see verses NOT covered in PFAL book I have developed a habit of not being too concerned about finding out EXACTLY what is meant by them. Maybe I’ll be aware of the content or the gist of those verses coming up elsewhere in the collaterals without citing the chapter and verse numbers, and I get additional light.
If I read these uncovered verses in the KJV or research them in the Greek or Aramaic I'll be on our own, without God's special 1942-promise kind of help. I’ll be left to my own devices, the 5-senses, and be open prey to the god of the 5-senses realm. So, I choose to not research them, or try to think too much about them. I'm content to know that when we were told to read these verses along with all the KJV back before 1982, I did so to the best of my ability, and incorporated them appropriately.
So, by the above explanation you should see that I really DO give KJV verses great credence, but not the super special credence of the contents of the collaterals.
Now, Rafael, as you might have noticed, today I only answered the opening lines of very long posts by you. Both of my responses took much time to type. But there’s still a vast body of other challenges in your posts I would love to have time to get into. It is this situation that I think a phone conversation or two would cut through. If you better understood my heart, which the phone can facilitate, then I think you and I would have a much more efficient debate. We could then focus on the much more meaty issues. So far I’ve tried calling you about 30 times in the past two days. I’ve only left a few messages, but I’ve called a lot. If you send me an e-mail and let me know when I can call to get through this may expedite things greatly. You are very easy to find in the phone book, as you say, but very hard to find in person, or in voice.
I’m NOT trying to change your mind. Only God can really convince. I’m only trying to more efficiently deliver data. If it’s right you’ll be able to consider it better, if it’s wrong you’ll be able to combat it better.
I sent you two e-mails on 1-5-03 and one on 1-4-03 which is more than anyone here. Did you get them? If not send me another note and I’ll see if something happened to the address. I can re-send them. I’ll try to focus more time on your post today for reply. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Hey! Am I the first to say that here?
I have limited time. I work close to my home, and came home to see what action was happening here, got sucked in again, and wrote the essay for Rafael above. At it’s end I appealed to him for a phone conversation. How about the same for you? Send me your number and what times I can find you in, and your time zone, and I’ll call.
You may be unaware of the other e-mails I am dealing with, and these posts you do see are quite time consuming. I’m spending many more hours than usual sitting at my computer, and my *** is sweaty. I feel like Alec Baldwin so I have to get up and dry off. Don’t give up, after I burn out here there will be lots of e-mail time.
As for the possibility you asked me to consider, please read all my posts here for more details, but in a nutshell here, the answer is YES. I spent the majority of 27 years considering that, and getting somewhat put off by grads around me who took him at his word as having been taught the best Word in 2000 years. It seems I traded places with them. My decision was made as a relatively mature grad and all alone between me and God, while the teenagers and twenty year olds of the Seventies made the decision impulsively, emotionally, and by jumping on a bandwagon.
Feel better?
*******************************************
Exy, I'll try to get back to you next session. I gotta stand up and ..... get moving.
Now Stop laughing Rafael! You're making me laugh too much again, and it hurts because it's enflaming my humoroids.
Sorry Exy, that's just a little guy talk.
I think you'll find your answer to that question as you study I Corinthians 13. Any decent version can transmit most of the important details.
If you're up to it, and I'd understand if this is not the time for this, but if you're up to it you could check out that chapter in "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" where I Cor 13 is covered.
Again, if that's not for you, just about any Bible study on agape/love should help you with that answer better than I can. If we were best friends and at a Starbucks with our KJV's that's where I'd suggest we go first.
Wierwille did not tell us to read the Epistles every day for three months. He told us to read The Word. And the thought that he would want us to abandon the King James in its entirety, focusing only on the verses he quotes in the collaterals, runs counter to the very content of those collaterals.
I'm going to ask at this time that you do not call me. Your assertion that we would save time in a phone conversation misses the point that you are making absurd claims in a public setting, and that those claims must be addresses publicly.
You say you do not seek to change my mind. I call that a lie. What is it you seek, if not to persuade us all to your point of view? If you do not seek to change our minds, then you are failing in your missionary task.
No, Mike, this conversation, if it continues at all, stays public. I will not be drawn into an endless telephone conversation in order to have you skillfully avoid answering the points we're all raising here. No. Save your quarter. Do not call.
I reject your idolatry, Mike. I will not be persuaded otherwise, not by you, not by the false god you worship. I do not need 27 years to bow down to your idol. You have disgraced your teacher, and become a caricature of those who loved him. By recognizing his faults without rejecting everything he taught, I submit that I have far more respect for the legacy of Victor Paul Wierwille than you do.
I never said that all abusers are of equal degree. The potential is in all of us men.
The same is the sad fact with women. They often abuse THEIR chemical power over men. It's just not in style to reveal this and it IS in style to hide it.
You're right. It was primarily addressed to the top leadership. By their incompetence and refusal to obey it they are not leaders any more. They abdicated! They ceased being leaders in God's eyes in 1985!
Whose going to fill the vacuum? The lower leadership, also declined Dr's final instructions. This process went all the way "down" to the lowly twig leaders, so all that's left is us mere Joe believers.
Oh, I know I'd be delighted if any former leadership were to come back, TOTALLY delighted! I'd bet money God feels the same.
Actually I think some may, I just don't know when, and I ain't waitin' for dem no mo.
You can turn down the offer like the upper leadership did if you want, but MY response to this deplorable situation is "Here am I, send me, Daddy. I'll give it a try if no one else will."
I know of a few other grads who feel the same, even some Corps!
This is how David handled a VERY similar situation when all the army generals fearfully fled Goliath. We all have the same Christ in us, and thesame connection to God, so Dr's Last/Lost Teaching is now addressed to us ONLY.
My Daddy is blind to name tag status, He looks at believing.
In reply to your reply to me: It is true that we do not have "The Bible" anymore, but translations and versions. Why don't we have the bible anymore? Because man is not perfect. Your position suggests that VP has what no other translator of the bible had: a direct line to God so that all errors would henceforth be avoided. The problem is not being ignored, it's just that those of us who keep bringing it up don't believe that VP necessarily knew more than the "large team of scholars"...in fact, there are active threads right now that demonstrate that he knew considerably less than these scholars about Koine Greek, and it's grammar.
quote:Tell me how you solve this problem so that you can do your error checking in comparing of PFAL to “the Bible.â€
In answer to your question, let me ask you one. If the versions and translations are so unreliable as to require new revelation to untangle it all; and that the available versions must be compared to Wierwille to determine their accuracy; why did Victor P. Wierwille spend so much time studying the bible? Why did he urge us to read "the Word"? He wanted to use his methods to find out what "the original" said, but in the meantime, we were all reading the "approximations".
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
quote:You can turn down the offer like the upper leadership did if you want, but MY response to this deplorable situation is "Here am I, send me, Daddy. I'll give it a try if no one else will."
"If you ARE going to read what I wrote, please be well rested (I learned this was important in the wee hours of Sunday this week"
He also said that he only skims the replys. I guess that's why he totally ignored me.
Mike do you realise how arrogant and condescending you come off? I mean telling people HOW to listen and comprehend? You can't be serious.
In fact that's what I've decided. Mike isn't serious. he's one of those people who goes to a chat room and disagrees with the popular opinion even at the risk of contradicting himself and ignoring the arguments of others. This HAS to be a joke. I didn't know there were any VPW supporters left, let alone anyone THIS zealous. It can't be real. It defies logic, the bible, and even VPW himself.
OLDIESMAN: I don't recall VP saying you were possesed if you have cancer. But I DID hear him say cancer was a devil spirit. Many times.
And if by "chapter and verse" you mean "where in the bible does it say cancer is a devil spirit" it doesn't. If by that you mean "when did VP say that" please don't refer to anything that man made up as "chapter and verse". it makes it sound like VP's words were God breathed. It makes you sound like
*GASP*
Mike! And i doubt you want that! Mike is a hoax. He cannot be taken seriously.
Finally for Mike (and I know that you are skimming so you might not see this and even if you do you won't respond):
There's a difference between a guy who gets "lucky" allot and the head of a church telling a vulnarable lay person "God says he will meet all your needs. Sex falls under the catagory of need. So i am going to minister to you, since you don't get sex ever since your divorce"
That REALLY happened, ok? VPW twisted the Word of god to get some action. Nice, huh?
This is not "99% of men" invading Poland (a really really poor analogy BTW. You DO know who invaded Poland right?) This is a a man of God abusing women in the name of God. It's disgusting and I know me, my friends and the other 99% of men out there would never do such a thing. And there wasn't any summer snow in my backyard and no audible voice. I'm just a regular guy who would NEVER get laid in the name of God, by twisting the bible...
Glory!
[This message was edited by Georgio Jessio on January 06, 2003 at 17:12.]
quote:Abigail, how do you know David did not have undocumented relapses at times. Old habits are hard to break, so I'd need a lot of Biblical proof before I believed your shooting from the hip.
Mike wants to believe what is not documented, yet challenges Abigail to document the lack of documentation. If you think David had relapses, you're the one who has to document it. There is no record of David having "relapses". Why assume it?
99%? What kind of sick company do you keep, Mike? I was brought up to treat women with respect, and I do. Of all the men I know, I know of exactly one who has ever struck a woman, and two, who were Way leaders who used their position to take advantage of a woman sexually. Of the others, there are maybe two or three more who have talked like they would if they could. I know a lot of people. So six out of the hundreds that I know is more like 1%. Maybe I just live in a better neighborhood than you do.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
If "Mike" had one stitch of credibility, one tiny iota of personal integrity, he would answer George Jessio's posts. By arrogantly and dishonestly ignoring Mr. Jessio's posts, Mike confirms he has zero personal integrity and empathy, and so since SOMEBODY on this web sight must address the latest brazen Weirwille atrocity exposed here, I will:
Dear George,
What Weirwille did to your mother is not something "99 percent of all men do" as was dishonestly portrayed. 99 percent of men convicted of serious crimes and incarcerated in prison would not drunkenly expose themselves and proposition a woman like Weirwille did. I doubt even 50 percent of convicted criminals would do such a thing. I doubt even 1 percent of all legitimatepreachers would do something like that (outside of TWI confines, of course).
The man - and from henceforth I will never again refer to Mr. Weirwille as a preacher - who did that to your mom was a lying piece of sh!t scumbag who completely went beyond the pale in his actions. If there is a God, and if there is justice in this life, then that lying stinking scumbag is slowly roasting in hell right now.
I also offer an apology for Mike's utterly dispicable and callous behavior when presented with your mom's story. In some ways, he can't help himself. He is one of these people The Old Grifter predicted could not "go beyond what they are taught." He is a mindless robot who cannot, or will not read anything outside of the words of Mr. Weirwille. In some ways this is a result of the breathtakingly skilled con artistry that was directed against him by a horrid little nasty cult.
Regardless of the cause and effects of Mike's glassy-eyed, mindless worship of Mr. Weirwille, nobody with any decency can allow you to express the pain and agony experienced by your mom and not respond appropriately and humanely.
I am so incredibly sorry for what happened to your Mom. I can't even begin to comprehend the pain she must feel to this day, especially when a callous and monumentally self-centered moral cretin like Mike simply ignores her and your unspeakable tragedy. ANd I redouble my apology for Mike's and Wierwille's evil, cretinous behavior by saying that many other people on this site feel the same way about your family's tragedy as I do. ]
Again, it only redoubles the hideous evil perpetrated against your family to have it ignored. I am so very very sorry that it happened to you.
I have not read every word you or others have written on this topic. I have merely spot-checked. I do not know what you do for a living, or if you have even said. But if you are not already a septic tank cleaner, you might consider a career change. You seem to really enjoy digging around in cr^p.
Do you think VPW heard God say, "Thou shalt go and speak all the things thou hast read from other researchers, and claim it is thy own." ?
I personally do not believe that anything copied from another and not giving credit is of God. That amounts to stealing and lying and I believe God is bigger than that.
quote:I’ve repeated demonstrated in many posts, the simplest and most complete of which is “Feelings,†that this tradition provided “Bible†is only approximate. Why do you keep shoving this intractable problem under the rug? Is it because it’s difficult to deal with? ...Tell me how you solve this problem so that you can do your error checking in comparing of PFAL to “the Bible"
You have repeatedly demonstrated your ignornance, closed mindedness and hipocracy more than anything. In PFAL itself your "master", VPW, taught keys to research so that we could "get back to the Word." In light of this, VPW also taught that "The greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed word and will of God" - the same Bible that you say is "horribly impotent".
Why it is that VPW himself failed to plainly tell us in PFAL that PFAL itself was greater than the Bible and that God "reissued his Word" in the form of PFAL? After all, if this was true then VPW already had this "fresh revelation" in print and on film for years. Why did he not plainly tell us? Why did it take God 50 years since PFAL was first taught and, 17 years since the death of "the master" for God to send someone to reveal this to the world.
I'll tell you why. Because it is a damned lie - that's why. Pure fiction. Totally absurd and baseless except possibly in the mind of one person - Mike.
Mike, you must feel very privledged to be the only human-being in the entire world to know these "hidden truths" and to have been chosen by God to reveal these things that have been "buried" since VPW got his "revelation" in 1942.
It must be also be very humbling to know that of all the folks in the whole world that you and you alone alone know the real truth and that everyone else in all of Christianity and the world is in error.
You have taken the concept of false prophet to new heights.
Arsekissers14:17 And there was a man who spoke to the crowd and said, "dange another wierwille doth approach"
18 The gathering then tried with all their might to disuade the approaching wierwillite, but when he would not be persuaded, they all ceased, saying, waz up Mike.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Mike
Thanks Oldiesman. That's what I said, buried in all the detail. I needed a summary like yours to clarify for those who only skim.
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Mike
I'm on lunchbreak from work, because my schedule is extremely casual, except for home appointments, which are nill in the winter after Christmas.
Plus I have a lot of office cleanup and straightening I'm doing as I wait for downloads. That counts as work, doesn't it?
I've only been posting for less than two weeks, but it REALLY IS cutting into my study time, I admit it.
I can make my own hours to a large degree since I work a lot of 24/7 type convienience stores.
Tell me, DATWAY, did you pick up your skill of grilling people as to how they spend their free-time and work-time from TWI-2 or did you get by revelation from the same god they got it from?
Are you going to ask about my finances and abundant sharing next?
If so I rent an apartment.
But plese don't ask me about my credit card or car? Deal?
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Abigail
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[This message was edited by Abigail on January 09, 2003 at 3:01.]
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Mike
Rafael wrote: “I was under the impression from your earlier posts that Wierwille had finished his work and was ready to die. Yet now you make it clear that there was a major portion of his work that was left undone. So, which is it?â€
Rafael, I think you’re assuming that the undone work was Dr’s to do. If Dr was operating by an abundance revelation (not in every phase of his life but in the work God gave him) THEN Dr would be able to discern with exactitude which specific tasks God gave him and to which tasks God said “No, that’s someone else’s job.â€
That dichotomy, being none of our business to begin with, may blur 5-senses wise as we look at it through the ravages of time and/or other minor handicaps, like not even being there. This minor handicap I suffer from because I was 2000 miles away during that final period.
You may have been around long enough to remember that Dr OFTEN taught on this work sharing dichotomy. Jesus scolded one disciple for wondering about someone else’s’ work assignment once. The Gospels of Mark and Luke are a marvel of this ultra-compartmentalization of work tasks that God used as a rule, not an exception. Mark and Luke were travelling companions with Paul YET the Mystery teaching of Paul’s was not in their compartments. Paul was shown a revelation of the Third Heaven, YET forbidden to teach on the details of it, because God had assigned that job to John. Sometimes there IS no one God can trust with a needed job and it goes undone until someone rises up. This kine of rising up is what WE are supposed to do. And HOW do we do it, oh,.. the HOW of that job we face was the topic of ..... Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching.
Ta DA! We’re back on thread.
I think Dr finished the job God gave him.
I’ve now got to finish the job God gave me for this afternoon, because I’m on a squeegee mission for God.
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firebee
Raf.............I was having such a down day till I read this:
I'm still laughing so hard that I had to pee again................
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Zixar
Whatever happened to "scientific exactness and mathematical precision"?
Nowhere in the collaterals are the revelation and impartation manifestations explored with a view towards their proper operation. That was supposed to be the Advanced Class, which you do not feel needs to be mastered. Had the collaterals been sufficient, the Advanced Class would have been unnecessary.
Yet, you claim the only way we can see through all the errors in the modern Bible is via revelation from God. The paradox is that now researchers have to operate without an absolute knowledge of the operation of the revelation manifestations. If no revelation=no true Bible, and no instruction=no revelation, you've effectively removed all hope of being able to accurately interpret the Word according to your standards. That's horribly bad science.
Another thing. One of the most basic keys to biblical interpretation that Dr. Wierwille taught was to get to whom it was written straight. Reading your transcipt of the Last Teaching, it is primarily addressed to the Country Coordinators, and only secondarily addressed to believers in general. That makes it his last teaching specifically only for Country Coordinators. Dr. Wierwille knew his true, public Last Teaching would be tape #1275, "The Hope". It was addressed to all believers, and is his final message to TWI assembled. Therefore, unless you are a Country Coordinator, the advice to master the FC, IC, and collaterals is not an absolute final mandate. Look to The Hope for that.
The Adversary has put a subtle set of blinders on you, Mike, getting you to focus on something that isn't specifically addressed to you so you won't realize the truth. Any idea or doctrine that imprisons you such is of the devil.
Why haven't you mastered "Release From Your Prisons" yet?
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Raf
Mike,
I reject any quotations of Scripture from you: they lack authority in your eyes, and therefore cannot be used by you to prove your point.
Further, please stop trying to convince me. I've made up my mind and unless you are going to be meek to my position, I need to save my energy for people who will be meek to it. It's one thing if you want to listen, but if you're going to try to convince ME to change MY mind, you've got another thing coming.
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sirguessalot
Mike,
I have a feeling you believe your are only here at the GSC to call out the lost sheep of the house of Wierwille, of which, I am not (TWI 92-97) - but why don't you at least throw me a freakin' bone!
You inspired some questions from me, and I responded to some of your posts, and even sent you a few emails, yet you have completely avoided addressing any of them.
Am I at the bottom of your list of potential followers or sumthin?
Do I lack the TWI pedigree you seek for your new group, based on DR's last teaching?
Honestly, I'm not whining for attention. It just looks like what I thought I was seeing is just turning out to be you spiritually masturbating (now that the miserable comforters have failed).
I never sat at the feet of your master, but I spent many years of hours cracking open Vic's works and methods til the wee hours, while everyone else around me seemed busy parroting dogma. My results were often less than popular, because I refused to use Wayspeak when explaining them.
Anyway, respond to an e-mail if you like. But I'm becoming less and less interested in what you have to say as the clock ticks by. And I'm less interested in a public dialogue with you.
A few more weeks or days, and I'll be gone as usual for a year or so. If GSC is still here when I get back (and I'm willing to bet it will be), my hope is that you'll have met a simpler God.
One last thing...
Will you not at least concede for a moment and admit that it is possible that VPW was not the creator's latest greatest spokesperson to come along in 2000 years?
Is it possible, Mike?
I think you've said that you have answered this before, and I believe you. But will you not do it again for a new crowd, a new day, a new time? A renewal?
Really, you don't have to be so afraid to be wrong again. You have a net, remember?
I'll leave yer thread now.
Find me elswhere if yer interested.
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on January 06, 2003 at 14:05.]
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excathedra
(mike, please talk to sirguess, he's really intelligent and kind)
**
ok now my post:
does "forgiveness" = denying that one has suffered at the hands of another
does "forgiveness" = being silent about having suffered at the hands of another
oh, and, no one else defines for me how i have or have not moved on, moved over, moved mountains
:)-->
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Mike
Rafael,
In the class Dr challenges us to read nothing but the epistles that are addressed to us for 3 months. At that time that meant KJV reading. Many, many other KJV readings and retemories were encouraged back then. This was part of our background, the basis in which to understand to the collaterals.
The KJV is an approximation of the original scriptures. The original understanding is the goal, the KJV is like a puzzle that needed to be “solved†or partially fixed. This would give us right dividing skills we could later apply to the collaterals. The KJV was a difficult puzzle in this respect, and no one was able to complete it, but it did teach us much, even as an approximation.
The collaterals are a MUCH easier read, even though right dividing is still required. I look at the much time we were told (by revelation) to spend in the KJV like the ankle and wrist weights a runner uses in training. When the BIG RACE finally arrives, the weights are removed and the runner flies through the air with the real God-breathed Word.
Since Dr was taught by God to lead us through the KJV so much, I'd say from that standpoint there's got to be some veracity there, even in raw KJV approximate form.
Many things changed in the period from 1976 to '85, especially in '82. After this 1982 the removal of the ankle weights was supposed to start happening, but it didn’t. By that time the top leadership was well practiced at “yessing†Dr to death and not really listening to his EXACT words he was getting from God. This is abundantly proved by the record. Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching was the last in a series of ignored instructions. Some people tried some of his suggestions, but eventually they pooped out and went with the prevailing winds.
I still am seeing lots of KJV verses on every page of Dr’s books. Yes, you say, I’m missing a lot of them too. Many verses were not part of the grand 40+ year project of God teaching Dr and Dr teaching us, and did not get covered by my own private reading and research. I simply place these verses on the lower priority list for focus.
If God deemed those verses to be not part of that 40+ year project with Dr and they didn’t make it into his books, then I’m not going to be running into them in my efforts to master the collaterals. Is this a fatal situation? I think not.
You all must decide on a yearly basis which verses you won’t be reading in your KJVs, unless you happen to be a prolific reader, but even still focused research of all the KJV in one year is impossible for any human. All of life demands that we decide which things are going to get done and which are not. I feel much less at risk if I stick with GOD’S decision as to which verses don’t make it into my high focus cirriculum THIS year, and the next several, until I’m done mastering. THEN, after PFAL mastery I’m in a much better position to work with any of the temporarily “lost†verses God wants me to get back into.
Do I feel it’s OK for me to read my KJV some before mastery BEFORE I’m finished mastering? Most definitely YES! But in moderation, not detracting from my main project of mastery. When I see verses covered in PFAL in my KJV and I want to focus in on them I go to Dr’s scripture index and look them up to see how God taught him to teach them to me. Then I can get God’s perspective on those verses, and not be cluttered with my own non-master opinions.
Right now I OFTEN go to my KJV to get a contextual flow overview for passages I’m studying in Dr’s books.
When I see verses NOT covered in PFAL book I have developed a habit of not being too concerned about finding out EXACTLY what is meant by them. Maybe I’ll be aware of the content or the gist of those verses coming up elsewhere in the collaterals without citing the chapter and verse numbers, and I get additional light.
If I read these uncovered verses in the KJV or research them in the Greek or Aramaic I'll be on our own, without God's special 1942-promise kind of help. I’ll be left to my own devices, the 5-senses, and be open prey to the god of the 5-senses realm. So, I choose to not research them, or try to think too much about them. I'm content to know that when we were told to read these verses along with all the KJV back before 1982, I did so to the best of my ability, and incorporated them appropriately.
So, by the above explanation you should see that I really DO give KJV verses great credence, but not the super special credence of the contents of the collaterals.
Now, Rafael, as you might have noticed, today I only answered the opening lines of very long posts by you. Both of my responses took much time to type. But there’s still a vast body of other challenges in your posts I would love to have time to get into. It is this situation that I think a phone conversation or two would cut through. If you better understood my heart, which the phone can facilitate, then I think you and I would have a much more efficient debate. We could then focus on the much more meaty issues. So far I’ve tried calling you about 30 times in the past two days. I’ve only left a few messages, but I’ve called a lot. If you send me an e-mail and let me know when I can call to get through this may expedite things greatly. You are very easy to find in the phone book, as you say, but very hard to find in person, or in voice.
I’m NOT trying to change your mind. Only God can really convince. I’m only trying to more efficiently deliver data. If it’s right you’ll be able to consider it better, if it’s wrong you’ll be able to combat it better.
************************************************************
Sirguessalot,
I sent you two e-mails on 1-5-03 and one on 1-4-03 which is more than anyone here. Did you get them? If not send me another note and I’ll see if something happened to the address. I can re-send them. I’ll try to focus more time on your post today for reply. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Hey! Am I the first to say that here?
I have limited time. I work close to my home, and came home to see what action was happening here, got sucked in again, and wrote the essay for Rafael above. At it’s end I appealed to him for a phone conversation. How about the same for you? Send me your number and what times I can find you in, and your time zone, and I’ll call.
You may be unaware of the other e-mails I am dealing with, and these posts you do see are quite time consuming. I’m spending many more hours than usual sitting at my computer, and my *** is sweaty. I feel like Alec Baldwin so I have to get up and dry off. Don’t give up, after I burn out here there will be lots of e-mail time.
As for the possibility you asked me to consider, please read all my posts here for more details, but in a nutshell here, the answer is YES. I spent the majority of 27 years considering that, and getting somewhat put off by grads around me who took him at his word as having been taught the best Word in 2000 years. It seems I traded places with them. My decision was made as a relatively mature grad and all alone between me and God, while the teenagers and twenty year olds of the Seventies made the decision impulsively, emotionally, and by jumping on a bandwagon.
Feel better?
*******************************************
Exy, I'll try to get back to you next session. I gotta stand up and ..... get moving.
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Mike
Exy,
Your post drew me back.
Now Stop laughing Rafael! You're making me laugh too much again, and it hurts because it's enflaming my humoroids.
Sorry Exy, that's just a little guy talk.
I think you'll find your answer to that question as you study I Corinthians 13. Any decent version can transmit most of the important details.
If you're up to it, and I'd understand if this is not the time for this, but if you're up to it you could check out that chapter in "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" where I Cor 13 is covered.
Again, if that's not for you, just about any Bible study on agape/love should help you with that answer better than I can. If we were best friends and at a Starbucks with our KJV's that's where I'd suggest we go first.
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Raf
Mike, you're delusional.
Wierwille did not tell us to read the Epistles every day for three months. He told us to read The Word. And the thought that he would want us to abandon the King James in its entirety, focusing only on the verses he quotes in the collaterals, runs counter to the very content of those collaterals.
I'm going to ask at this time that you do not call me. Your assertion that we would save time in a phone conversation misses the point that you are making absurd claims in a public setting, and that those claims must be addresses publicly.
You say you do not seek to change my mind. I call that a lie. What is it you seek, if not to persuade us all to your point of view? If you do not seek to change our minds, then you are failing in your missionary task.
No, Mike, this conversation, if it continues at all, stays public. I will not be drawn into an endless telephone conversation in order to have you skillfully avoid answering the points we're all raising here. No. Save your quarter. Do not call.
I reject your idolatry, Mike. I will not be persuaded otherwise, not by you, not by the false god you worship. I do not need 27 years to bow down to your idol. You have disgraced your teacher, and become a caricature of those who loved him. By recognizing his faults without rejecting everything he taught, I submit that I have far more respect for the legacy of Victor Paul Wierwille than you do.
I continue to pray for you.
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Cindy!
Excuse me while I puke.....blearrrrrrghhhhhhhhhh
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Mike
Zix,
You're right. It was primarily addressed to the top leadership. By their incompetence and refusal to obey it they are not leaders any more. They abdicated! They ceased being leaders in God's eyes in 1985!
Whose going to fill the vacuum? The lower leadership, also declined Dr's final instructions. This process went all the way "down" to the lowly twig leaders, so all that's left is us mere Joe believers.
Oh, I know I'd be delighted if any former leadership were to come back, TOTALLY delighted! I'd bet money God feels the same.
Actually I think some may, I just don't know when, and I ain't waitin' for dem no mo.
You can turn down the offer like the upper leadership did if you want, but MY response to this deplorable situation is "Here am I, send me, Daddy. I'll give it a try if no one else will."
I know of a few other grads who feel the same, even some Corps!
This is how David handled a VERY similar situation when all the army generals fearfully fled Goliath. We all have the same Christ in us, and thesame connection to God, so Dr's Last/Lost Teaching is now addressed to us ONLY.
My Daddy is blind to name tag status, He looks at believing.
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Oakspear
Mike:
In reply to your reply to me: It is true that we do not have "The Bible" anymore, but translations and versions. Why don't we have the bible anymore? Because man is not perfect. Your position suggests that VP has what no other translator of the bible had: a direct line to God so that all errors would henceforth be avoided. The problem is not being ignored, it's just that those of us who keep bringing it up don't believe that VP necessarily knew more than the "large team of scholars"...in fact, there are active threads right now that demonstrate that he knew considerably less than these scholars about Koine Greek, and it's grammar.
In answer to your question, let me ask you one. If the versions and translations are so unreliable as to require new revelation to untangle it all; and that the available versions must be compared to Wierwille to determine their accuracy; why did Victor P. Wierwille spend so much time studying the bible? Why did he urge us to read "the Word"? He wanted to use his methods to find out what "the original" said, but in the meantime, we were all reading the "approximations".Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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Raf
"If no one else will."
There's a safe bet.
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Georgio Jessio
Mike said:
"If you ARE going to read what I wrote, please be well rested (I learned this was important in the wee hours of Sunday this week"
He also said that he only skims the replys. I guess that's why he totally ignored me.
Mike do you realise how arrogant and condescending you come off? I mean telling people HOW to listen and comprehend? You can't be serious.
In fact that's what I've decided. Mike isn't serious. he's one of those people who goes to a chat room and disagrees with the popular opinion even at the risk of contradicting himself and ignoring the arguments of others. This HAS to be a joke. I didn't know there were any VPW supporters left, let alone anyone THIS zealous. It can't be real. It defies logic, the bible, and even VPW himself.
OLDIESMAN: I don't recall VP saying you were possesed if you have cancer. But I DID hear him say cancer was a devil spirit. Many times.
And if by "chapter and verse" you mean "where in the bible does it say cancer is a devil spirit" it doesn't. If by that you mean "when did VP say that" please don't refer to anything that man made up as "chapter and verse". it makes it sound like VP's words were God breathed. It makes you sound like
*GASP*
Mike! And i doubt you want that! Mike is a hoax. He cannot be taken seriously.
Finally for Mike (and I know that you are skimming so you might not see this and even if you do you won't respond):
There's a difference between a guy who gets "lucky" allot and the head of a church telling a vulnarable lay person "God says he will meet all your needs. Sex falls under the catagory of need. So i am going to minister to you, since you don't get sex ever since your divorce"
That REALLY happened, ok? VPW twisted the Word of god to get some action. Nice, huh?
This is not "99% of men" invading Poland (a really really poor analogy BTW. You DO know who invaded Poland right?) This is a a man of God abusing women in the name of God. It's disgusting and I know me, my friends and the other 99% of men out there would never do such a thing. And there wasn't any summer snow in my backyard and no audible voice. I'm just a regular guy who would NEVER get laid in the name of God, by twisting the bible...
Glory!
[This message was edited by Georgio Jessio on January 06, 2003 at 17:12.]
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sirguessalot
Mike,
I know yer busy. I'll send another email.
BTW, 27 years? That's it, and yer done? I would be impressed if...
Sorry, I promised to leave the thread.
Carry on.
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Oakspear
99%? What kind of sick company do you keep, Mike? I was brought up to treat women with respect, and I do. Of all the men I know, I know of exactly one who has ever struck a woman, and two, who were Way leaders who used their position to take advantage of a woman sexually. Of the others, there are maybe two or three more who have talked like they would if they could. I know a lot of people. So six out of the hundreds that I know is more like 1%. Maybe I just live in a better neighborhood than you do.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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Larry P2
If "Mike" had one stitch of credibility, one tiny iota of personal integrity, he would answer George Jessio's posts. By arrogantly and dishonestly ignoring Mr. Jessio's posts, Mike confirms he has zero personal integrity and empathy, and so since SOMEBODY on this web sight must address the latest brazen Weirwille atrocity exposed here, I will:
Dear George,
What Weirwille did to your mother is not something "99 percent of all men do" as was dishonestly portrayed. 99 percent of men convicted of serious crimes and incarcerated in prison would not drunkenly expose themselves and proposition a woman like Weirwille did. I doubt even 50 percent of convicted criminals would do such a thing. I doubt even 1 percent of all legitimatepreachers would do something like that (outside of TWI confines, of course).
The man - and from henceforth I will never again refer to Mr. Weirwille as a preacher - who did that to your mom was a lying piece of sh!t scumbag who completely went beyond the pale in his actions. If there is a God, and if there is justice in this life, then that lying stinking scumbag is slowly roasting in hell right now.
I also offer an apology for Mike's utterly dispicable and callous behavior when presented with your mom's story. In some ways, he can't help himself. He is one of these people The Old Grifter predicted could not "go beyond what they are taught." He is a mindless robot who cannot, or will not read anything outside of the words of Mr. Weirwille. In some ways this is a result of the breathtakingly skilled con artistry that was directed against him by a horrid little nasty cult.
Regardless of the cause and effects of Mike's glassy-eyed, mindless worship of Mr. Weirwille, nobody with any decency can allow you to express the pain and agony experienced by your mom and not respond appropriately and humanely.
I am so incredibly sorry for what happened to your Mom. I can't even begin to comprehend the pain she must feel to this day, especially when a callous and monumentally self-centered moral cretin like Mike simply ignores her and your unspeakable tragedy. ANd I redouble my apology for Mike's and Wierwille's evil, cretinous behavior by saying that many other people on this site feel the same way about your family's tragedy as I do. ]
Again, it only redoubles the hideous evil perpetrated against your family to have it ignored. I am so very very sorry that it happened to you.
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SocketCreep
Mike,
I have not read every word you or others have written on this topic. I have merely spot-checked. I do not know what you do for a living, or if you have even said. But if you are not already a septic tank cleaner, you might consider a career change. You seem to really enjoy digging around in cr^p.
Do you think VPW heard God say, "Thou shalt go and speak all the things thou hast read from other researchers, and claim it is thy own." ?
I personally do not believe that anything copied from another and not giving credit is of God. That amounts to stealing and lying and I believe God is bigger than that.
That is My opinion on the subject.
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Goey
You have repeatedly demonstrated your ignornance, closed mindedness and hipocracy more than anything. In PFAL itself your "master", VPW, taught keys to research so that we could "get back to the Word." In light of this, VPW also taught that "The greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed word and will of God" - the same Bible that you say is "horribly impotent".
Why it is that VPW himself failed to plainly tell us in PFAL that PFAL itself was greater than the Bible and that God "reissued his Word" in the form of PFAL? After all, if this was true then VPW already had this "fresh revelation" in print and on film for years. Why did he not plainly tell us? Why did it take God 50 years since PFAL was first taught and, 17 years since the death of "the master" for God to send someone to reveal this to the world.
I'll tell you why. Because it is a damned lie - that's why. Pure fiction. Totally absurd and baseless except possibly in the mind of one person - Mike.
Mike, you must feel very privledged to be the only human-being in the entire world to know these "hidden truths" and to have been chosen by God to reveal these things that have been "buried" since VPW got his "revelation" in 1942.
It must be also be very humbling to know that of all the folks in the whole world that you and you alone alone know the real truth and that everyone else in all of Christianity and the world is in error.
You have taken the concept of false prophet to new heights.
Goey
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firebee
Arsekissers14:17 And there was a man who spoke to the crowd and said, "dange another wierwille doth approach"
18 The gathering then tried with all their might to disuade the approaching wierwillite, but when he would not be persuaded, they all ceased, saying, waz up Mike.
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Oakspear
v19 and the former Wierwille bloodied his dead fingers upon the countenance of the prophet of the lost proceeding from repeated slapping
v20 and the Mike was sore bewildered
v21 when the day was fully come, there was a heard a sound from the PFAL book as of a mighty breathing
v22 and God said "that's not me, you idiot". close the window
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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