Just another control method? Anybody else have any similar experiences?
Sounds like "burn the chaff day." This is not a characteristic unique to TWI. I have heard of a number of religious groups which recommend that "devilish" influences be eliminated.
I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing, although, as is usual for TWI, they took a potentially good thing and hosed it up. If you repeatedly listen to the same thing, it will have an influence. If you repeatedly watch the same thing on the tube, it will have an influence. If you want to minimize that influence, then you should replace the bad influence with something more positive (thus "believer music," Christian rock-n-roll, etc.) How many of us would want a 7 year old to watch an "R" rated flick? Why? Because the film could upset, confuse, corrupt, or have some other negative influence upon the kid. Adults are not that different, it just (in most cases) takes a little more to cause the same influence on us.
P1ss me off, though. Junked a bunch of perfectly good Kansas records that way.
of musicians in my area going to twigs and taking PFAL and many of us were playing in secular bands. Some were making decent livings
at it.
At first They didn't hassle us too much about it though over time it was suggested that it would be "best" if we put down our instruments to dedicate ourselves to God which I though odd.
I mean they didn't tell painters to put down
their paintbrushes or mechanics their tool set.
Later it also became clear that going to see
secular shows was frowned upon. Once we bailed
on Twig to see Johnny Winter though we had made
plans well in advance to do this. Of course we
were reproved for this but no one really cared
since the show was pretty good. In fact we had
invited any number of people in TWI so it wasn't
like we saw it as bad.
There have been some good threads at Gspot on
Way productions music (Socks and even Ted F have
provided some good perspective on this)
One conclusion that keeps emerging is that VPW didn't particularly like sharing the limelight with musicians and considered them to be troublesome to manage. I really think that
he was in many ways jealous of the attention so
he projected his discomfort onto others.
Also I saw various leaders with no background
in entertainment giving advice to performers on
what they should be wearing , their facial expressions, how they should stand.
It didn't make any sense and sometimes had
a bizarre effect. And then there were the times
were they would want to "correct" lyrics and
make suggestions about content. Again from people who had no idea about rhythm , meter,
I remember all of this then saw LCM talking about Metallica and how much he liked them. Nothing like consistency. Of course, he got to sound cool to all of the teens at the ROA.
the only one who tried to control my music was my WOW family coasstinator.
on my day off, saturday, I liked to sit around in my underware listening to and playing along on guitar to the likes of alice cooper, captian beefheart, frank zappa, and a few others. he'd always come in the room and make a cross with his fingers and tell me I was possesed lol.
this from the guy who tried to drag us to a disco bar hahahahaha
NOt only Secular music--The SINg along the Way book was mostly REWRITTEN Songs--Rewritten to match TWI's Slant on things--Music is a powerful tool music sticks in you brain longer than just plain words.
TWI couldn't afford to have hymns thay revealed to much of the GLory of GOD And Jesus Christ--wouldn't help the MOG Thing doncha Know :D-->
the very first time I went to an area meeting in a park the BC and his wife drove me and I was shocked to listen to Billy Joel the whole ride.
They had just bought it and we talked about his music and the commented on how much they enjoyed his concert.
I was surprised .
In twi 2 the people I fellowshipped with listened only to ministry music, and then the off shoot freaks only christian music even if it was jesus is God and nothing eles.
Another area where TWI leaders talked out of both sides of their mouths.
I never heard Wierwille or Martindale say that we should not listen to secular music, but if either said something negative about it, then there were plenty of leaders as well as regular folks who were ready to condemn it and ban listening to it.
My experience was that most leaders had their own favorite kind of non-TWI music which was okay to listen to, but any other kind was "devilish". They would analyze to death the lyrics of music that they considered evil, but ignore the words on records that they liked.
Yeah, that one must've been hard to manage ha ha. My WOW family coordinator would play early Beatles albums over and over again, this while the book 'Marxist minstrels' was being promoted.
One time I destroyed a foot high stack of secular albums thinking it would make me more spiritual. Don't know if it did or not and don't really regret doing that, y'know (a time to gather stones, a time to cast away rolling stones, ha ha). But after enough time passed I said screw that and started re accumulating. I don't have near the record collection I once had, but I got music.
In the spinoff I attend there has been no teaching whatsoever about this. Not from the MOG nor from the leaders. Last year me and another believer went to Ozzfest. Oboy! Granted, there aren't too many in the fellowships who would want to do that, but hey, we're free!
TWI would rather have had us purchase their "filtered for accuracy" music (much of it very amateurish) than to waste our money on devilish stuff like Haydn or Mahler or even (God Forbid) Springsteen.
I was WOW in 1979, the year Dylan went religious with his music. My WOW leader told me it was because I went out WOW that Dylan changed his style. With the help of the devil Dylan tried to lure me away. I was told I couldn't listen to Dylan during my WOW year. YEA,RIGHT.
Another WOW really liked the "DUBIE BROTHERS" and that was fine until I told him what a " DUBIE " was. I couldn't believe the reaction, instant hate for them. Rolllanotherone my friend.
There was also a "record burning" twig before I went WOW, I forgot to bring mine.
OE: I'm with you on that. I kind of gave it up for a season to rid myself of some of its negative influence, but I never hated it. There's probably some bad association with every music group in some way.
quote:I was WOW in 1979, the year Dylan went religious with his music. My WOW leader told me it was because I went out WOW that Dylan changed his style. With the help of the devil Dylan tried to lure me away. I was told I couldn't listen to Dylan during my WOW year. YEA,RIGHT.
That's funny! (and typical)... it was one of my Limb Leader's (first corps) favorite albums that year! He turned us onto it...
speaking of secular muzak, in the wake of the RIAA's campaign to grind out the free exchange of music, I've turned to Rhapsody.com as a great service. For 10 bucks a month you can listen from a library of 400,000 + songs. You can test it and find out more at LISTEN DOT COM. You can also download songs for 79 cents a pop.
Coool, Krys. I just got it set up recently and I'm finding just about everything I look for. Need a bigger music budget though!
I was going to kick in a couple cents worth on the music discussion. Diazbro mentioned Ted F's postings awhile back and he noted how his idea for music in the Way was to keep it a separate entity, involved with The Way but not directly under VPW's direction. A "music ministry".
That idea of a "ministry" is really at the heart of the concept I think. Ministry being a type of service.
The Way had a self-described ministry of research, teaching and fellowship. By definition, those would be specific kinds of service, service to all people and the broader body of Christian believers. One example I use is of a General Contractor who has individual contractors within his company who do specific things to help build a house, say. Plumbers, carpenters, roofers, etc. Each trade does a part of the work to contribute to the construction of the building. Service is done by people, for people and for what they need.
The best I understand from the bible is that ministries of all kinds work similarly, such as they are and when they exist, under the direction of God, through Christ "the foundation". No single ministry is separate to itself. They'll be potentially as rancorous as The Way was, single minded and focused on what they're doing. The best thing for a ministry of any kind is IMO to have to work with others of different kinds and focus, so that there's balance. When one wants to say it's the most important (we're the Hands and the Hands rule!) there's usually another saying the same thing. Everyone has to be reminded time and again that all are needed. Balance doesn't come easy sometimes, but it can be maintained through effort. (" Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.) :)--> But if you flip everybody off and go your own way, you lose that broader context of working together. It's like marrying your own sister. She may be cute, but it's kinda weird.
Anyway, that idea of a music ministry is an interesting one. Music is something to be enjoyed! From what I've experienced pre-Way and post-Way, it requires a great deal of freedom and discipline. The kinds of music aren't as important as working in cooperation with one another.
If you have one guy waving the wand over the whole thing, declaring what's right and wrong, you don't get that whole benefit of all the "contractors" working together. You need diversity or you end up with a house built by a plumber. Sinks and faucets everywhere, no light fixtures! Focusing on one kind of music over another ("country and western is godly...!" "Metal is devilish!" is stupid. All ages and backgrounds produce music of all kinds.
Personally I like and listen to all kinds of music. Some of it is kind of extreme, and I like it because what the music and lyrics say is true when they rant on the hypocrisy and hatred that rules so much of the world. I like to be reminded of that sometimes, that the comfy world I live in isn't enjoyed by the majority of people on this planet. To quote a favorite lyric of mine, by Trent Reznor/Nine Inch Nails:
god money's not looking for the cure
god money's not concerned about the sick among the pure
god money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
god money's not one to choose
no, you can't take it
no, you can't take it
no, you can't take that away from me
head like a hole
black as your soul
i'd rather die
than give you control
bow down before the one you serve
you're going to get what you deserve
bow down before the one you serve
you're going to get what you deserve
Amazing! I bet he's into Sea Monkeys!
[This message was edited by socks on March 17, 2004 at 23:10.]
[This message was edited by socks on March 17, 2004 at 23:12.]
Apparently, I was a lousy wayfer. We heard lectures over the years but I always just kept what I wanted and tossed the rest.
Let's see, who was I told was seed...
Lionel Richie (He heard the songs in his head before he wrote them down. Where else would you think but in your own head?!)
Michael Jackson ??? From the same people who said "seed boys" were always stealthy and sly! MJ stealthy?! Yeah, right. NO one would pick him out in a crowd.
The Beatles or at least John Lennon.
Derail: Cute line on Lennon:
John to God: "I thought you didn't exist!"
God to John: "Imagine that."
Back to the subject:
KISS - Knights in silly spandex or something like that.
Ozzy - "Well, it's obvious." There went that whole sly and stealthy thing again.
Mozart - Apparently, child prodigies are usually seed. Hmm... wonder how young some of the way productions folks started performing? Makes you think, doesn't it? ;-)
Oh, there's more but OM hit the nail on the head. If the leadership liked it was ok. Otherwise, you never heard it.
When I was a teen in the family corps, I had the big leader BM (no, not bowel movment) FREAK when he found out I had a Culture Club (Boy George) poster. He came to my room at 5 AM, woke me up and cast the spirit of homosexuality out of me! He actually told me a year later, when he saw me with my girlfriend , that I was LUCKY to be hetero and that if it wasn't for him I'd be a HOMO.
GeorgioJessio: Speaking of Boy George, in 1985 the Beach Boys were in the STL area. I didn't attend the show, but I heard that BB guitarist Al Jardine made a joke about Boy George during the show figuring their audience would be older people. He got booed so loud and quick that it rattled him and he stumbled over an electrical cable on the stage floor and almost fell down. BM woulda had his work cut out for him at THAT show, huh?
I once saw Jethro Tull (1975) and Ian Andersen made fun of Elton John for having big glasses, Mick Jagger for having big lips, and David Bowie for being bisexual. I don't understand why talented performers have to resort to that. Just do your show and leave your issues in the damn dressing room.
quote: I once saw Jethro Tull (1975) and Ian Andersen made fun of Elton John for having big glasses, Mick Jagger for having big lips, and David Bowie for being bisexual. I don't understand why talented performers have to resort to that. Just do your show and leave your issues in the damn dressing room.
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markomalley
I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing, although, as is usual for TWI, they took a potentially good thing and hosed it up. If you repeatedly listen to the same thing, it will have an influence. If you repeatedly watch the same thing on the tube, it will have an influence. If you want to minimize that influence, then you should replace the bad influence with something more positive (thus "believer music," Christian rock-n-roll, etc.) How many of us would want a 7 year old to watch an "R" rated flick? Why? Because the film could upset, confuse, corrupt, or have some other negative influence upon the kid. Adults are not that different, it just (in most cases) takes a little more to cause the same influence on us.
P1ss me off, though. Junked a bunch of perfectly good Kansas records that way.
"Fear the Turtle"
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diazbro
Well in the early to mid 70s there were alot
of musicians in my area going to twigs and taking PFAL and many of us were playing in secular bands. Some were making decent livings
at it.
At first They didn't hassle us too much about it though over time it was suggested that it would be "best" if we put down our instruments to dedicate ourselves to God which I though odd.
I mean they didn't tell painters to put down
their paintbrushes or mechanics their tool set.
Later it also became clear that going to see
secular shows was frowned upon. Once we bailed
on Twig to see Johnny Winter though we had made
plans well in advance to do this. Of course we
were reproved for this but no one really cared
since the show was pretty good. In fact we had
invited any number of people in TWI so it wasn't
like we saw it as bad.
There have been some good threads at Gspot on
Way productions music (Socks and even Ted F have
provided some good perspective on this)
One conclusion that keeps emerging is that VPW didn't particularly like sharing the limelight with musicians and considered them to be troublesome to manage. I really think that
he was in many ways jealous of the attention so
he projected his discomfort onto others.
Also I saw various leaders with no background
in entertainment giving advice to performers on
what they should be wearing , their facial expressions, how they should stand.
It didn't make any sense and sometimes had
a bizarre effect. And then there were the times
were they would want to "correct" lyrics and
make suggestions about content. Again from people who had no idea about rhythm , meter,
cadence. It was just a way to control way prods
people.
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JustThinking
I remember all of this then saw LCM talking about Metallica and how much he liked them. Nothing like consistency. Of course, he got to sound cool to all of the teens at the ROA.
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papajohn
the only one who tried to control my music was my WOW family coasstinator.
on my day off, saturday, I liked to sit around in my underware listening to and playing along on guitar to the likes of alice cooper, captian beefheart, frank zappa, and a few others. he'd always come in the room and make a cross with his fingers and tell me I was possesed lol.
this from the guy who tried to drag us to a disco bar hahahahaha
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templelady
NOt only Secular music--The SINg along the Way book was mostly REWRITTEN Songs--Rewritten to match TWI's Slant on things--Music is a powerful tool music sticks in you brain longer than just plain words.
TWI couldn't afford to have hymns thay revealed to much of the GLory of GOD And Jesus Christ--wouldn't help the MOG Thing doncha Know
:D-->
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mj412
the very first time I went to an area meeting in a park the BC and his wife drove me and I was shocked to listen to Billy Joel the whole ride.
They had just bought it and we talked about his music and the commented on how much they enjoyed his concert.
I was surprised .
In twi 2 the people I fellowshipped with listened only to ministry music, and then the off shoot freaks only christian music even if it was jesus is God and nothing eles.
strange.
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Oakspear
Another area where TWI leaders talked out of both sides of their mouths.
I never heard Wierwille or Martindale say that we should not listen to secular music, but if either said something negative about it, then there were plenty of leaders as well as regular folks who were ready to condemn it and ban listening to it.
My experience was that most leaders had their own favorite kind of non-TWI music which was okay to listen to, but any other kind was "devilish". They would analyze to death the lyrics of music that they considered evil, but ignore the words on records that they liked.
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johniam
Yeah, that one must've been hard to manage ha ha. My WOW family coordinator would play early Beatles albums over and over again, this while the book 'Marxist minstrels' was being promoted.
One time I destroyed a foot high stack of secular albums thinking it would make me more spiritual. Don't know if it did or not and don't really regret doing that, y'know (a time to gather stones, a time to cast away rolling stones, ha ha). But after enough time passed I said screw that and started re accumulating. I don't have near the record collection I once had, but I got music.
In the spinoff I attend there has been no teaching whatsoever about this. Not from the MOG nor from the leaders. Last year me and another believer went to Ozzfest. Oboy! Granted, there aren't too many in the fellowships who would want to do that, but hey, we're free!
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krys
I got reproved a couple of times for my love of classical music. The old masters were pozzezzed donchaknow!
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Goey
And then there is the money aspect to consider.
TWI would rather have had us purchase their "filtered for accuracy" music (much of it very amateurish) than to waste our money on devilish stuff like Haydn or Mahler or even (God Forbid) Springsteen.
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OnionEater
I was WOW in 1979, the year Dylan went religious with his music. My WOW leader told me it was because I went out WOW that Dylan changed his style. With the help of the devil Dylan tried to lure me away. I was told I couldn't listen to Dylan during my WOW year. YEA,RIGHT.
Another WOW really liked the "DUBIE BROTHERS" and that was fine until I told him what a " DUBIE " was. I couldn't believe the reaction, instant hate for them. Rolllanotherone my friend.
There was also a "record burning" twig before I went WOW, I forgot to bring mine.
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johniam
OE: I'm with you on that. I kind of gave it up for a season to rid myself of some of its negative influence, but I never hated it. There's probably some bad association with every music group in some way.
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Tom Strange
OE said:
That's funny! (and typical)... it was one of my Limb Leader's (first corps) favorite albums that year! He turned us onto it......and they really didn't like the Beatles...
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socks
Sun Zoom Spark, papajohn!
speaking of secular muzak, in the wake of the RIAA's campaign to grind out the free exchange of music, I've turned to Rhapsody.com as a great service. For 10 bucks a month you can listen from a library of 400,000 + songs. You can test it and find out more at LISTEN DOT COM. You can also download songs for 79 cents a pop.
(if they're in the library)
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krys
Agreed socks - - Rhapsody is really welcome in my computer too!
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socks
Coool, Krys.
I just got it set up recently and I'm finding just about everything I look for. Need a bigger music budget though!
I was going to kick in a couple cents worth on the music discussion. Diazbro mentioned Ted F's postings awhile back and he noted how his idea for music in the Way was to keep it a separate entity, involved with The Way but not directly under VPW's direction. A "music ministry".
That idea of a "ministry" is really at the heart of the concept I think. Ministry being a type of service.
The Way had a self-described ministry of research, teaching and fellowship. By definition, those would be specific kinds of service, service to all people and the broader body of Christian believers. One example I use is of a General Contractor who has individual contractors within his company who do specific things to help build a house, say. Plumbers, carpenters, roofers, etc. Each trade does a part of the work to contribute to the construction of the building. Service is done by people, for people and for what they need.
The best I understand from the bible is that ministries of all kinds work similarly, such as they are and when they exist, under the direction of God, through Christ "the foundation". No single ministry is separate to itself. They'll be potentially as rancorous as The Way was, single minded and focused on what they're doing. The best thing for a ministry of any kind is IMO to have to work with others of different kinds and focus, so that there's balance. When one wants to say it's the most important (we're the Hands and the Hands rule!) there's usually another saying the same thing. Everyone has to be reminded time and again that all are needed. Balance doesn't come easy sometimes, but it can be maintained through effort. (" Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.)
:)--> But if you flip everybody off and go your own way, you lose that broader context of working together. It's like marrying your own sister. She may be cute, but it's kinda weird.
Anyway, that idea of a music ministry is an interesting one. Music is something to be enjoyed! From what I've experienced pre-Way and post-Way, it requires a great deal of freedom and discipline. The kinds of music aren't as important as working in cooperation with one another.
If you have one guy waving the wand over the whole thing, declaring what's right and wrong, you don't get that whole benefit of all the "contractors" working together. You need diversity or you end up with a house built by a plumber. Sinks and faucets everywhere, no light fixtures! Focusing on one kind of music over another ("country and western is godly...!" "Metal is devilish!"
is stupid. All ages and backgrounds produce music of all kinds.
Personally I like and listen to all kinds of music. Some of it is kind of extreme, and I like it because what the music and lyrics say is true when they rant on the hypocrisy and hatred that rules so much of the world. I like to be reminded of that sometimes, that the comfy world I live in isn't enjoyed by the majority of people on this planet. To quote a favorite lyric of mine, by Trent Reznor/Nine Inch Nails:
god money's not looking for the cure
god money's not concerned about the sick among the pure
god money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
god money's not one to choose
no, you can't take it
no, you can't take it
no, you can't take that away from me
head like a hole
black as your soul
i'd rather die
than give you control
bow down before the one you serve
you're going to get what you deserve
bow down before the one you serve
you're going to get what you deserve
[This message was edited by socks on March 17, 2004 at 23:10.]
[This message was edited by socks on March 17, 2004 at 23:12.]
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corrydj
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JustThinking
Apparently, I was a lousy wayfer. We heard lectures over the years but I always just kept what I wanted and tossed the rest.
Let's see, who was I told was seed...
Lionel Richie (He heard the songs in his head before he wrote them down. Where else would you think but in your own head?!)
Michael Jackson ??? From the same people who said "seed boys" were always stealthy and sly! MJ stealthy?! Yeah, right. NO one would pick him out in a crowd.
The Beatles or at least John Lennon.
Derail: Cute line on Lennon:
John to God: "I thought you didn't exist!"
God to John: "Imagine that."
Back to the subject:
KISS - Knights in silly spandex or something like that.
Ozzy - "Well, it's obvious." There went that whole sly and stealthy thing again.
Mozart - Apparently, child prodigies are usually seed. Hmm... wonder how young some of the way productions folks started performing? Makes you think, doesn't it? ;-)
Oh, there's more but OM hit the nail on the head. If the leadership liked it was ok. Otherwise, you never heard it.
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Georgio Jessio
When I was a teen in the family corps, I had the big leader BM (no, not bowel movment) FREAK when he found out I had a Culture Club (Boy George) poster. He came to my room at 5 AM, woke me up and cast the spirit of homosexuality out of me! He actually told me a year later, when he saw me with my girlfriend , that I was LUCKY to be hetero and that if it wasn't for him I'd be a HOMO.
Thanks B!
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WordWolf
Well?
You don't sound very thankful for that Big BM that one year......
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diazbro
corrydj said:
<<
Weren't they [memebers of the band Kansas]supposed to Christians?
>>
Well basically it was just Kerry Livgren.
He wrote or cowrote the larger part
of the Kansas "hits" most of which were authored before his conversion.
The primary singer ,Steve Walsh,
does have a solo album "glossalalia" which
is *not* a christian album. He chose the
title because of the interesting nature of
the word.
I should add that the follow on singer after
SW's departure, John Elefante, was a christian
though I didn't really consider it to be the
same band at that point.
I'm not entirely sure why I remember all
this or why I care except for the fact that
I ran into those guys from time to time. They
were a great band even though some of their
music didn't appeal to me or the market
at large. They still tour from time to time
in some configuration and usually show up
at those summer festival shows.
[This message was edited by diazbro on March 19, 2004 at 14:21.]
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johniam
GeorgioJessio: Speaking of Boy George, in 1985 the Beach Boys were in the STL area. I didn't attend the show, but I heard that BB guitarist Al Jardine made a joke about Boy George during the show figuring their audience would be older people. He got booed so loud and quick that it rattled him and he stumbled over an electrical cable on the stage floor and almost fell down. BM woulda had his work cut out for him at THAT show, huh?
I once saw Jethro Tull (1975) and Ian Andersen made fun of Elton John for having big glasses, Mick Jagger for having big lips, and David Bowie for being bisexual. I don't understand why talented performers have to resort to that. Just do your show and leave your issues in the damn dressing room.
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diazbro
Or in the closet ? HA HA HA HA HA
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