For those of you blaming the women, shame shame. Sure they could have said no, and those who did paid a price. Most of the time they were black balled, some were kicked out, sent LOA and other wonderful things. Such is life... Abuse of power is almost always followed by sexual abuse if not stopped asap. Eli's sons. God blamed Eli because he restrained them not.
I don't think anyone is blaming the women for the actions of an abuser. Consider the woman in John 8 who was dragged out of bed and used as a prop not only to serve the sexual lusts of some of those Pharisees, but also to get Jesus in trouble. She probably had less freedom of movement than women today. Who could she tell? She probably thought she was going to die. She had more to worry about than getting black balled.
Yet Jesus said go and sin no more. He was certainly compassionate, but he didn't say this woman was nothing but a victim; he said go and SIN no more. She was not totally innocent; she wasn't retarded, she bore some responsibility. I bet she was one of the about 120 referred to in Acts 1.
None of the crap that happened to us in the cult has anything to do with bible verses. The cult was so far removed from any behavior remotely "christian" it's downright insulting to compare the two.
When someone is a prisoner mentally it can prepare for physical prisons, thus enabling the abuser absolute authority. Especially if no one restrains the abuser but rather facilitates their actions. Some freely gave believing him to be the man God placed in authority over them spiritually. And he certainly had access to influence our thoughts and behavior because of that trust handed to him.
As far as it being the woman's responsibility, it is quite different from a woman flirting in public with a stranger and then upon accepting an invitation to his room is put in a corner to put out. She implied the possibility via her actions. But when a self proclaimed MOG uses his flock because he knows he can control the outcome for personal satisfaction, when it was never flirted at by her and certainly never desired of by her, then it is very different. Does she still hold some responsibility? One would have had to be in her shoes to know what the cost of refusal could have been.
Does this negate the good gained while a part of twi. Nothing can negate what the true giver God gave us during our time in. But it is still evil to have taken advantage of us, some more than others. Thankfully even that can lesson in time because of God's healing power.
In many of my post I have made referance to a book "For your own good" by Alice Miller. I finally finished the book and feel relieved and at the same time angry.
The book points to a clear understanding of how child rearing "Poisonious Pedagogy",has shaped our culture and world as we know it.
Seeds of hatred in the Middle East,historical accounts of displaced anger and transfered crulity i.e Germany 1939-1945. All this and more is a result of this subconscious teaching that has put ourselves and our world in a spin.
There are few if any that have not suffered from this "pedagorgy". Everyone has been influenced by it, from V.P to you and me.
If you really wan't some resolve as to what we have experianced at TWI and understand the sadistic behavior there, you must read this book.
My anger stims from the understanding of how this teaching practiced and instilled in me, set me up for TWI. When I say instilled in me, it means I have the potential to do to others what has been done to me. And without a healthy recognition and expression of that anger,it will recycle itself in some form of abuse. Either on myself or on others.
So sadistic behavior has to have its roots in abuse. This does not get the perpatrator off the hook but gives a reason for why and how.
quote: Look at all TWI did for us before you start pointing fingers. I cannot remember all the picnics that they put on during my maany maany years of involvment. Too many to count.
Thomas -- Life was not the "picnic" that twi portrayed. :(-->
quote:I don't think anyone is blaming the women for the actions of an abuser. Consider the woman in John 8 who was dragged out of bed and used as a prop not only to serve the sexual lusts of some of those Pharisees, but also to get Jesus in trouble. She probably had less freedom of movement than women today. Who could she tell? She probably thought she was going to die. She had more to worry about than getting black balled. Yet Jesus said go and sin no more. He was certainly compassionate, but he didn't say this woman was nothing but a victim; he said go and SIN no more. She was not totally innocent; she wasn't retarded, she bore some responsibility. I bet she was one of the about 120 referred to in Acts 1.
John, excellent point, and something to really think about. Thanks for sharing.
"I don't think anyone is blaming the women for the actions of an abuser."
I disagree based on the info below. Not disagreeing with your points just that particular one.
OM quote 1:
"This seems to be a key element in the mind control propaganda mindset. You must have been brainwashed to have submit yourself to a loud-mouth balding man with a large forehead, right? It couldn't have been for other reasons...no...you had to be brainwashed. You COULDN'T make decisions on your own...
Yes you could folks. It doesn't apply because those Iraq prisoners were there at gunpoint. There's a difference."
OM quote 2:
"It really would depend on the mind set of the participant involved, but I do question that those engaged in that activity thought it was a requirement to service the mog in that way; I think most freely availed themselves to do it; others were abused, but I would say generally, no, folks who did that sort of thing didn't think it was sexual humiliation at the time (those who thought it might be, or found it distasteful didn't do it, obviously.)"
OM quote 3:
"doesn't apply because there was no "absolute authority" in twi"
My take:
If they found it distasteful, they didn't do it OBVIOUSLY?! (My emphasis added) Obvious to whom?
Work with women forced into sexual servitude and you'll find not all have been beaten into submission. Oldies posts give me the impression that at least one person here feels that the women chose to be in that position and may have not even seen it as sexual humiliation. However, there are many posts here from women who absolutely felt degraded, used and, yes, coerced. Even if some did it willingly, it would NEVER excuse even one time when they didn't.
No "absolute authority" because they weren't physically restrained or threatened? From the great, exalted VPW himself:
"Prisons are not only made of bars of steel. The prisons of our secret sins, things in our lives which we don't want to share with any other person in the world,"
Unlesss, of course, you had written them down in a document when applying for the corps.
"are the MOST frustating and defeating."
Gee, does the devil have a gun to our head? Nope. But, for the VPW lovers in the crowd, even HE said that mental entrapment is much MORE powerful than physical. Can someone have freedom to run but still be controlled? According to VPW, that's the devil's best method! And, if it was used by MOGs to manipulate women, that makes them similar to...to...
quote: don't think anyone is blaming the women for the actions of an abuser. Consider the woman in John 8 who was dragged out of bed and used as a prop not only to serve the sexual lusts of some of those Pharisees, but also to get Jesus in trouble. She probably had less freedom of movement than women today. Who could she tell? She probably thought she was going to die. She had more to worry about than getting black balled.
maybe I'm dense, but I don't see where it says that woman was coerced into having sex with the leaders of the time, much less the pharisees. This does not appear to be the same type of situation at all.
This is a matter of deflecting the point of the argument.
Johniam, Oldiesman: It does not matter ONE WHIT if the women were prostitutes who took money for their activities and went on to sign multimillion dollar book deals. The point is the Christian "leaders" (ie, Christian servants, at least in theory) ought not do such things.
The problem isn't just that there was sex going on. The problem is that it was rampant, and it was justified, by "leadership."
It doesn't matter how much blame falls on the victims. Why are you so obsessed with that when the problem being identified is that people took sexual advantage of those they were supposed to be caring for, and they were doing it in God's name, and they didn't even have the decency to teach that it was wrong.
Maybe if you stayed on the point, people would stop jumping all over you when these issues came up.
Sadistic leader requires sex from the pretty girls as part of his mogly perks...but it`s REALLY ok because those girls (many of them teens) ...all wanted/needed/deserved the attention of the almighty mog .....
Because the mogs didn`t behave with the decency ...honor and character required of a man of the spirit...it really is STILL ok because it was all the girls fault for providing the temptation to begin with..
Besides that it wasn`t REALLY all that bad these girls are all just whiney crybabies that want to remain in *victim* mode...they should all just get over it .. have I got it right oldies n John??
Imbus....I applaud your willingness to try to be understanding and forgiving of these creeps....but I guess that I know too many people who have been visciously abused ...who DON`T in turn visit some form of sadistic behavior on others (read Monty Roberts` book *The man who listened to horses* for an outstanding example)
I think that to excuse the mogs because of their tough upbrining is wrong....it is a measure of the calibibur of the CHARACTER ... the morality of the individual to overcome and resist the temptation to *take it out* on someone else...
I think that if we are true honestly deeply spiritual men and women (as twi leaders portrayed themselves to be) we WILL manifest those fruit of the spirit listed in galations ...LOVE peace gentleness temperance joy LOVE longsuffering LOVE...lol you get the idea verses a ..lying fornicating adulterous strife causing hate filled man of the *flesh*
We will manifest these attributes in SPITE of any difficulties endured in our upbringing....it`s an inside *thing* ...something that we don`t fake.
If they had TRULY been men of the spirit...the men they presented themselves to be.......they would have shown the fruit of the spirit in their lives...I think they were faking it...probably even managed to fool themselves...
Read the final chapter of galations and tell ME which attributes most of the top leadership of twi displayed...and what God recomends we do consccerning those individuals who are identified as being men after the *flesh*.........
quote:Galations final chapter will blow your MIND when read in regards to what was truly in the *hearts* of these men....Read it tell ME which attributes most of the top leadership of twi displayed...and what God recomends we do consccerning those individuals who are after the *flesh*.........
Rascal, you mean this verse?
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
or this one?
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
or this one?
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
or this one?
Gal 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with your spirit. Amen.
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
...
[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
...
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Oldiesman, take your eyes off that consequence clause and look at the behavior that's being condemned. Can we agree that regardless of the meaning of that clause, the behavior is being condemned? Do you see it? We can argue the consequence clause in the doctrinal section if you want. But can you, for once, just one time, stick to the subject?
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There's No One Like No Place Like Home.
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Uhhh, how many lumps do ya want?
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johniam
NPLH:
quote:
For those of you blaming the women, shame shame. Sure they could have said no, and those who did paid a price. Most of the time they were black balled, some were kicked out, sent LOA and other wonderful things. Such is life... Abuse of power is almost always followed by sexual abuse if not stopped asap. Eli's sons. God blamed Eli because he restrained them not.
I don't think anyone is blaming the women for the actions of an abuser. Consider the woman in John 8 who was dragged out of bed and used as a prop not only to serve the sexual lusts of some of those Pharisees, but also to get Jesus in trouble. She probably had less freedom of movement than women today. Who could she tell? She probably thought she was going to die. She had more to worry about than getting black balled.
Yet Jesus said go and sin no more. He was certainly compassionate, but he didn't say this woman was nothing but a victim; he said go and SIN no more. She was not totally innocent; she wasn't retarded, she bore some responsibility. I bet she was one of the about 120 referred to in Acts 1.
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ex10
Just a thought.....
None of the crap that happened to us in the cult has anything to do with bible verses. The cult was so far removed from any behavior remotely "christian" it's downright insulting to compare the two.
As always, just my humble opinion.
:D-->
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Tom Strange
Good point myothersisterEx10... good point...
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houseisarockin
When someone is a prisoner mentally it can prepare for physical prisons, thus enabling the abuser absolute authority. Especially if no one restrains the abuser but rather facilitates their actions. Some freely gave believing him to be the man God placed in authority over them spiritually. And he certainly had access to influence our thoughts and behavior because of that trust handed to him.
As far as it being the woman's responsibility, it is quite different from a woman flirting in public with a stranger and then upon accepting an invitation to his room is put in a corner to put out. She implied the possibility via her actions. But when a self proclaimed MOG uses his flock because he knows he can control the outcome for personal satisfaction, when it was never flirted at by her and certainly never desired of by her, then it is very different. Does she still hold some responsibility? One would have had to be in her shoes to know what the cost of refusal could have been.
Does this negate the good gained while a part of twi. Nothing can negate what the true giver God gave us during our time in. But it is still evil to have taken advantage of us, some more than others. Thankfully even that can lesson in time because of God's healing power.
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Raf
Lotsa new talent today.
Very well said house 'o rock.
Coffee?
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imbus
In many of my post I have made referance to a book "For your own good" by Alice Miller. I finally finished the book and feel relieved and at the same time angry.
The book points to a clear understanding of how child rearing "Poisonious Pedagogy",has shaped our culture and world as we know it.
Seeds of hatred in the Middle East,historical accounts of displaced anger and transfered crulity i.e Germany 1939-1945. All this and more is a result of this subconscious teaching that has put ourselves and our world in a spin.
There are few if any that have not suffered from this "pedagorgy". Everyone has been influenced by it, from V.P to you and me.
If you really wan't some resolve as to what we have experianced at TWI and understand the sadistic behavior there, you must read this book.
My anger stims from the understanding of how this teaching practiced and instilled in me, set me up for TWI. When I say instilled in me, it means I have the potential to do to others what has been done to me. And without a healthy recognition and expression of that anger,it will recycle itself in some form of abuse. Either on myself or on others.
So sadistic behavior has to have its roots in abuse. This does not get the perpatrator off the hook but gives a reason for why and how.
Take a look at the book . It's worth it.
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dmiller
Quote from TT ---
Thomas -- Life was not the "picnic" that twi portrayed.
:(-->
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dmiller
NPLHome / House Rockin' -- Howdy!!
:)--> 
:)--> 
:)-->
Take Raf up on that coffee he offered. If it is anything like his posts, and insights, it is stimulating to say the least
:D-->
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Raf
Also like my posts, it may make your stomach uneasy.
But that's cafe coffee for you.
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dmiller
Cutting edge commentary, and caffine!!
For "stomach upset" take two aspirin with a glass of pear water and you'll be fine in the morning!
:)-->
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oldiesman
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JustThinking
Johniam quote:
"I don't think anyone is blaming the women for the actions of an abuser."
I disagree based on the info below. Not disagreeing with your points just that particular one.
OM quote 1:
"This seems to be a key element in the mind control propaganda mindset. You must have been brainwashed to have submit yourself to a loud-mouth balding man with a large forehead, right? It couldn't have been for other reasons...no...you had to be brainwashed. You COULDN'T make decisions on your own...
Yes you could folks. It doesn't apply because those Iraq prisoners were there at gunpoint. There's a difference."
OM quote 2:
"It really would depend on the mind set of the participant involved, but I do question that those engaged in that activity thought it was a requirement to service the mog in that way; I think most freely availed themselves to do it; others were abused, but I would say generally, no, folks who did that sort of thing didn't think it was sexual humiliation at the time (those who thought it might be, or found it distasteful didn't do it, obviously.)"
OM quote 3:
"doesn't apply because there was no "absolute authority" in twi"
My take:
If they found it distasteful, they didn't do it OBVIOUSLY?! (My emphasis added) Obvious to whom?
Work with women forced into sexual servitude and you'll find not all have been beaten into submission. Oldies posts give me the impression that at least one person here feels that the women chose to be in that position and may have not even seen it as sexual humiliation. However, there are many posts here from women who absolutely felt degraded, used and, yes, coerced. Even if some did it willingly, it would NEVER excuse even one time when they didn't.
No "absolute authority" because they weren't physically restrained or threatened? From the great, exalted VPW himself:
"Prisons are not only made of bars of steel. The prisons of our secret sins, things in our lives which we don't want to share with any other person in the world,"
Unlesss, of course, you had written them down in a document when applying for the corps.
"are the MOST frustating and defeating."
Gee, does the devil have a gun to our head? Nope. But, for the VPW lovers in the crowd, even HE said that mental entrapment is much MORE powerful than physical. Can someone have freedom to run but still be controlled? According to VPW, that's the devil's best method! And, if it was used by MOGs to manipulate women, that makes them similar to...to...
Class?
JT
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WordWolf
Unless, of course,
OM says "I changed my mind,"
which means the posts you quoted reflect an EARLIER mindset which,
upon reconsideration, is no longer being held.
*waits to see if that possibility happens*
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insurgent
johniam said:
maybe I'm dense, but I don't see where it says that woman was coerced into having sex with the leaders of the time, much less the pharisees. This does not appear to be the same type of situation at all.
My opinion is of the same as ex10's.
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Raf
This is a matter of deflecting the point of the argument.
Johniam, Oldiesman: It does not matter ONE WHIT if the women were prostitutes who took money for their activities and went on to sign multimillion dollar book deals. The point is the Christian "leaders" (ie, Christian servants, at least in theory) ought not do such things.
The problem isn't just that there was sex going on. The problem is that it was rampant, and it was justified, by "leadership."
It doesn't matter how much blame falls on the victims. Why are you so obsessed with that when the problem being identified is that people took sexual advantage of those they were supposed to be caring for, and they were doing it in God's name, and they didn't even have the decency to teach that it was wrong.
Maybe if you stayed on the point, people would stop jumping all over you when these issues came up.
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JustThinking
Raf,
Very well said.
I have to wonder if this type of redirection was taught to the corps and tc. It used to happen all the time when I would ask uncomfortable questions.
JT
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rascal
Sadistic leader requires sex from the pretty girls as part of his mogly perks...but it`s REALLY ok because those girls (many of them teens) ...all wanted/needed/deserved the attention of the almighty mog .....
Because the mogs didn`t behave with the decency ...honor and character required of a man of the spirit...it really is STILL ok because it was all the girls fault for providing the temptation to begin with..
Besides that it wasn`t REALLY all that bad these girls are all just whiney crybabies that want to remain in *victim* mode...they should all just get over it .. have I got it right oldies n John??
Imbus....I applaud your willingness to try to be understanding and forgiving of these creeps....but I guess that I know too many people who have been visciously abused ...who DON`T in turn visit some form of sadistic behavior on others (read Monty Roberts` book *The man who listened to horses* for an outstanding example)
I think that to excuse the mogs because of their tough upbrining is wrong....it is a measure of the calibibur of the CHARACTER ... the morality of the individual to overcome and resist the temptation to *take it out* on someone else...
I think that if we are true honestly deeply spiritual men and women (as twi leaders portrayed themselves to be) we WILL manifest those fruit of the spirit listed in galations ...LOVE peace gentleness temperance joy LOVE longsuffering LOVE...lol you get the idea verses a ..lying fornicating adulterous strife causing hate filled man of the *flesh*
We will manifest these attributes in SPITE of any difficulties endured in our upbringing....it`s an inside *thing* ...something that we don`t fake.
If they had TRULY been men of the spirit...the men they presented themselves to be.......they would have shown the fruit of the spirit in their lives...I think they were faking it...probably even managed to fool themselves...
Read the final chapter of galations and tell ME which attributes most of the top leadership of twi displayed...and what God recomends we do consccerning those individuals who are identified as being men after the *flesh*.........
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oldiesman
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
or this one?
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
or this one?
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
or this one?
Gal 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with your spirit. Amen.
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Raf
I think she meant Chapter 5:
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
...
[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
...
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
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oldiesman
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Raf
Again with the diversion:
Oldiesman, take your eyes off that consequence clause and look at the behavior that's being condemned. Can we agree that regardless of the meaning of that clause, the behavior is being condemned? Do you see it? We can argue the consequence clause in the doctrinal section if you want. But can you, for once, just one time, stick to the subject?
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oldiesman
oh come on... i can't stand that doctrinal section.
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Raf
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