Thank you Tom for directions in obtaining some insight.
Your quote "That way you can form your own opinions based upon what that person posted, not on what someone else says" is one to be respected.
I have read several articles on this website's main page, of which there was one regarding affair. Excellent article! And I realize one can know little of me based on a handful of posts, so my cliff notes version would be: If I being married had a sexual relationship with other than my spouse I would be in defiance of the agreement made by each. As well, I believe I would be equally placed in respect to God's will. (end of cliff notes) However, that is not to say a woman could not be so broken of spirit that she is able to shelf this acknowledgment. In order to survive a situation not invited yet critical for keeping intact things she holds precious.
Thank you also WordWolf for your agreement with Tom which respects getting to know someone based on their own words.
Such entrapment when it was only our desire to serve God. Regardless of the woman’s role the MOG knew better, but did not constrain themselves. How do they deserve to be excused?
I also want to say how much I appreciate the kindness and support that most have given me in here and in the gs community. It has been very very healing for me.
quote:This would also help to explain how seemingly well intentioned people walked into a situation where they became sadistic and corrupt. The arrogant attitude of leadership, the aloofness, the sexual exploitation perhaps was fueled by the climate of "absolute authority" and "a veil of secrecy". They became kings in their own little kingdoms. As the brainwashed peasants kissed their rings, their minds went over to the "dark side"...Certainly not in every case, but in many.
Those of us who were still a part of twi during the switch over to "disciple" status were told this was a breakthrough in our understanding as a household. We were now "fully set up for success". Today thinking back on that exciting time (gag me with a spoon) I thought I would look up the definition of the word. You may find of interest how it relates to being in a position of a "seemingly well intentioned person", and how without even recognizing it becoming partakers of things not Godly. From the front of the room to behind closed doors.
1) One who receives instruction from another; a scholar; a learner; especially, a follower who has learned to BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH of the DOCTRINE of HIS teacher.
2) To make disciples of; to CONVERT to doctrines or PRINCIPLIES.
quote:I have got to say it....It just blows my MIND that you oldies and john want to defend these amoral creeps simply because they taught you a little *word*....
Show me ONE post where I defended any abuser's actions. You also must think Jesus was defending the abusive Pharisees in John 8 when he told that woman go and sin no more. He wasn't defending them, he told them they were of their father the devil. Hardly a ringing endorsement.
I have no doubt that you suffered at their hands, but that doesn't give you the right to lie.
I told NO lies John....you and oldies BOTH have defended them and tried to minimalise the culpability.......now YOU stop calling ME a liar....and assuming lies about me and what *I* think about Jesus and his teachings..you have shown repeatedly that you haven`t got a CLUE concerning my spirituality ...myself OR my beliefs.....and so your perceptions of such are not to be trusted.
I told NO lies John....you and oldies BOTH have defended them and tried to minimalise the culpability.......now YOU stop calling ME a liar....and assuming lies about me and what *I* think about Jesus and his teachings..you have shown repeatedly that you haven`t got a CLUE concerning my spirituality ...myself OR my beliefs.....and so your perceptions of such are not to be trusted.
Rascal,
you're looking for the last post on page 3, and the entirety of page 6 of this thread.
Page 6 is where he tries to minimize culpability to a degree by misdirection and
adding "Amazing familiarity" to an account in the gospels. That's also where he
attacked Raf for calling him on that last point. (Nothing like a good personal attack
to distract from the main body of a discussion.)
Mind you, I don't know if, strictly speaking, he can be said to have "defended"
the evildoers who abused their offices. I think he served that purpose by distracting
from the main discussion, which may FUNCTIONALLY serve the same purpose while
_It does not make one whit of difference if the women were willing or unwilling, abused or prostitutes. The point is it was FLAT OUT WRONG for so-called "Men of God" to do these things....
I can't find any posts where johniam blatantly defends the actions of abusers. I just skimmed the whole thread. Minimizing culpability is pretty much rampant to my eye though.
Johniam:
Why is it relevant what the mindset of the women was? A woman who believes (or has been convinced) that it is okay to "service" the MOG is just easier to abuse.
Redirecting the attention away from the abuser to the abused may not seem like defending the abusers to you, but it is excusing them to a certain extent.
Whatever your intentions, what you are actually communicating is a callous indifference to the victims and an identification with the abusers.
quote:_It does not make one whit of difference if the women were willing or unwilling, abused or prostitutes. The point is it was FLAT OUT WRONG for so-called "Men of God" to do these things....
Thank you so much for putting it so undeniably clear.
On the flip side, did it ever occur to you that there are women, thinking and feeling twi and ex-twi women, who generally agree with what i've been saying? ----------------
Show us ONE. Just ONE. You'd think if they were there they'd step up to the plate. I cannot imagine a woman would ever "generally agree" with you on this...
Tom, I personally know of three ex-twi women (and not spring chickens) who generally agree with my posts. Why won't they step up to the plate? I've asked them to post, but they're just not interested in debating, and have other, more important interests in life. That's their choice.
I've often wondered why Dr. Wierwille's daughters don't post. Probably same reason...
Tom, just a general suggestion and something you might want to consider: just because there's an opinion about something on the internet doesn't mean it's the prevailing opinion. Remember Richard Nixon's quote about "the silent majority"? It may be applied to this as well.
Actually Ex, I think Oldies is trying desperately to hold on to the reputation and worth of VPW's ministry and teachings that, deep down, he knows is dying off anyway.
quote:i can't believe you don't understand why his daughters wouldn't post. probably same reason? i don't think so.
I opine they don't post because they have more important interests and don't want to get into any debates with the posters... what else could it be? do you actually think they have the same opinions about their father as some posters here do?
quote:I opine they don't post because they have more important interests and don't want to get into any debates with the posters... what else could it be? do you actually think they have the same opinions about their father as some posters here do?
I agree that they "don't want to get into any debates with the posters"... but I opine it's because it's gotta be pretty painful for them to hear about (and realize) the things their father did to people who trusted him (including their mother)... and yeah, as hard as it must be for them... I think after hearing the stories they would have the same opinions... maybe not as harsh though because he was their father...
I didn't call you a liar. That's right. I said you didn't have the right to lie. There's a difference. Wordwolf is hallucinating; I defended NO abuser, functionally or otherwise.
There's a difference between addressing behavior and labeling someone's worth. If I had called you a liar that would have been labeling. I was addressing your behavior. You said I defended abusers; I did not, therefore you LIED.
I just don't understand. On other posts you have said that you believe God has blessed you and your family financially and in other ways. That's GREAT! But when you post like you do on this thread, you act like you're not responsible for anything.
You didn't choose to go to your first twig, they brainwashed you into it. You didn't choose to spend 10 plus yrs in TWI, they brainwashed you into that, too. What about the clothes you're wearing right now? Did you choose them or did the salespeople brainwash you?
It seems to me like you just refuse to forgive yourself for the abortion...like THAT was your own personal unforgivable sin...like you think you're going to hell for SURE, now. God doesn't want you to think like that. Even if it turns out that God DOES equate abortion with murder, Paul murdered more than a few and God forgave him.
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houseisarockin
Thank you Tom for directions in obtaining some insight.
Your quote "That way you can form your own opinions based upon what that person posted, not on what someone else says" is one to be respected.
I have read several articles on this website's main page, of which there was one regarding affair. Excellent article! And I realize one can know little of me based on a handful of posts, so my cliff notes version would be: If I being married had a sexual relationship with other than my spouse I would be in defiance of the agreement made by each. As well, I believe I would be equally placed in respect to God's will. (end of cliff notes) However, that is not to say a woman could not be so broken of spirit that she is able to shelf this acknowledgment. In order to survive a situation not invited yet critical for keeping intact things she holds precious.
Thank you also WordWolf for your agreement with Tom which respects getting to know someone based on their own words.
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houseisarockin
Such entrapment when it was only our desire to serve God. Regardless of the woman’s role the MOG knew better, but did not constrain themselves. How do they deserve to be excused?
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vickles
exactly and very well said housisarockin.
I also want to say how much I appreciate the kindness and support that most have given me in here and in the gs community. It has been very very healing for me.
You guys are great!!!!
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Tom Strange
and just so you all know... I used to be afraid of clowns... but since I've gotten to "know" vickles... I'm not afraid of them anymore!
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vickles
lmao, tom, I'm so glad your not afraid of me...whew in fact I'm relieved!!!!!!!!!!
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houseisarockin
Thank you vickles.
Tom, I'm still afraid of something. Leaders who would say "I know what is better for your spiritual growth than you do".
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houseisarockin
Those of us who were still a part of twi during the switch over to "disciple" status were told this was a breakthrough in our understanding as a household. We were now "fully set up for success". Today thinking back on that exciting time (gag me with a spoon) I thought I would look up the definition of the word. You may find of interest how it relates to being in a position of a "seemingly well intentioned person", and how without even recognizing it becoming partakers of things not Godly. From the front of the room to behind closed doors.
1) One who receives instruction from another; a scholar; a learner; especially, a follower who has learned to BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH of the DOCTRINE of HIS teacher.
2) To make disciples of; to CONVERT to doctrines or PRINCIPLIES.
3) IMITATES his EXAMPLE.
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johniam
Rascal:
quote:I have got to say it....It just blows my MIND that you oldies and john want to defend these amoral creeps simply because they taught you a little *word*....
Show me ONE post where I defended any abuser's actions. You also must think Jesus was defending the abusive Pharisees in John 8 when he told that woman go and sin no more. He wasn't defending them, he told them they were of their father the devil. Hardly a ringing endorsement.
I have no doubt that you suffered at their hands, but that doesn't give you the right to lie.
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rascal
I told NO lies John....you and oldies BOTH have defended them and tried to minimalise the culpability.......now YOU stop calling ME a liar....and assuming lies about me and what *I* think about Jesus and his teachings..you have shown repeatedly that you haven`t got a CLUE concerning my spirituality ...myself OR my beliefs.....and so your perceptions of such are not to be trusted.
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WordWolf
Rascal,
you're looking for the last post on page 3, and the entirety of page 6 of this thread.
Page 6 is where he tries to minimize culpability to a degree by misdirection and
adding "Amazing familiarity" to an account in the gospels. That's also where he
attacked Raf for calling him on that last point. (Nothing like a good personal attack
to distract from the main body of a discussion.)
Mind you, I don't know if, strictly speaking, he can be said to have "defended"
the evildoers who abused their offices. I think he served that purpose by distracting
from the main discussion, which may FUNCTIONALLY serve the same purpose while
FACTUALLY doing something else.
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WordWolf
_It does not make one whit of difference if the women were willing or unwilling, abused or prostitutes. The point is it was FLAT OUT WRONG for so-called "Men of God" to do these things....
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Oakspear
Rascal:
I can't find any posts where johniam blatantly defends the actions of abusers. I just skimmed the whole thread. Minimizing culpability is pretty much rampant to my eye though.
Johniam:
Why is it relevant what the mindset of the women was? A woman who believes (or has been convinced) that it is okay to "service" the MOG is just easier to abuse.
Redirecting the attention away from the abuser to the abused may not seem like defending the abusers to you, but it is excusing them to a certain extent.
Whatever your intentions, what you are actually communicating is a callous indifference to the victims and an identification with the abusers.
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dmiller
Rockin House -- I haven't even thought of cliff notes in years!
:D-->
Are those things still printed up?
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bowtwi
WordWolf said:
Thank you so much for putting it so undeniably clear.Link to comment
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houseisarockin
dmiller, Just like in the OLD days they still use them to the best of my knowledge.
-->
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oldiesman
Tom, I personally know of three ex-twi women (and not spring chickens) who generally agree with my posts. Why won't they step up to the plate? I've asked them to post, but they're just not interested in debating, and have other, more important interests in life. That's their choice.
I've often wondered why Dr. Wierwille's daughters don't post. Probably same reason...
Tom, just a general suggestion and something you might want to consider: just because there's an opinion about something on the internet doesn't mean it's the prevailing opinion. Remember Richard Nixon's quote about "the silent majority"? It may be applied to this as well.
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excathedra
what do spring chickens have to do with anything ?
THEN and NOW are very different anyway
--
i can't believe you don't understand why his daughters wouldn't post. probably same reason? i don't think so.
more important interests in life eh ? you can be so callous at times
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GarthP2000
Actually Ex, I think Oldies is trying desperately to hold on to the reputation and worth of VPW's ministry and teachings that, deep down, he knows is dying off anyway.
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oldiesman
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excathedra
you can opine all you want
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Tom Strange
OM said:
I agree that they "don't want to get into any debates with the posters"... but I opine it's because it's gotta be pretty painful for them to hear about (and realize) the things their father did to people who trusted him (including their mother)... and yeah, as hard as it must be for them... I think after hearing the stories they would have the same opinions... maybe not as harsh though because he was their father...Link to comment
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excathedra
maybe harsher
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GarthP2000
Opine? ... or whine?
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johniam
Rascal:
quote:now YOU stop calling ME a liar
I didn't call you a liar. That's right. I said you didn't have the right to lie. There's a difference. Wordwolf is hallucinating; I defended NO abuser, functionally or otherwise.
There's a difference between addressing behavior and labeling someone's worth. If I had called you a liar that would have been labeling. I was addressing your behavior. You said I defended abusers; I did not, therefore you LIED.
I just don't understand. On other posts you have said that you believe God has blessed you and your family financially and in other ways. That's GREAT! But when you post like you do on this thread, you act like you're not responsible for anything.
You didn't choose to go to your first twig, they brainwashed you into it. You didn't choose to spend 10 plus yrs in TWI, they brainwashed you into that, too. What about the clothes you're wearing right now? Did you choose them or did the salespeople brainwash you?
It seems to me like you just refuse to forgive yourself for the abortion...like THAT was your own personal unforgivable sin...like you think you're going to hell for SURE, now. God doesn't want you to think like that. Even if it turns out that God DOES equate abortion with murder, Paul murdered more than a few and God forgave him.
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