Well there seems to be a comprehension problem for some who begin to suspect that I am not what I appear.
Clearly some ex Wayers are as paranoid and suspicious as some ex dubs.
I have never been in "the Way". I wouldnt know jack about your church.
However I have been involved in literally dozens of cults while I was researching a book I was writing. Mormons, Adventists, Pentecostals, Toronto Blessing, Benny Hinn, Ashtar command, Amway, Orion command, Dan Gaymans Church of Israel, Christian Identity ministries... Ive been involved in them all and have read most extensively in all of them.
Believe me, I know exactly how they work and I can read between the lines of cult doctrine like a man with Xray eyes.
quote:I have never been in "the Way". I wouldnt know jack about your church.
However I have been involved in literally dozens of cults while I was researching a book I was writing.
Look, I was not criticizing you, just asking you what you meant. Did you mean JWs only or were you REALLY involved in other cults...meaning you were IN and BELIEVED in what they taught.
Forgive me, but RESEARCHING life on other planets is NOT the same as living on them and researching a number of cults is not the same as BEING in them.
I was just asking you to clarify what you meant since you did, and let's be honest, say it as an answer to "Why did you stay" and "in The Way" was clearly implied. So, if your answer pertains to the JWs, why not just say so?
Stay as long as you like. I'm glad you're here.
Also, do you mind telling us what the name of your book is? Many of us here would probably like to read it. I know I would.
tough group eh refiner? Like WW says, it may mean that you gotta drop in a "JW" here and there because (especially in this section of threads called 'about the way') it will be assumed that you are speaking of TWI... just drop in an extra "JW" for reference and it will help with the understanding of where you're coming from...
...I haven't 'seen' anything yet that makes me not believe what you're saying, we're just a naturally skeptical group here... like WW said...
In Refiner's defense, when he came here he fully disclosed that he was a shunned "apostate" from the Jehovah's Witnesses and never involved with TWI.
IMO, a cult is a cult an there are many similarities. I would imagine that the reasons JW's stay after they realized that they are involved in a controling cult might be similar to the reasons many of us stayed in TWI.
While, he may not have been iinvolved in TWI, I think that maybe he can learn from us and that possibly we can learn from him also.
My point was exactly the same as yours, Goey - I wasn't saying anything at all against James, just making a comment about how close his cult sounded to ours.
When I first took PFAL (1978), it was my first real introduction to the Bible. As a scientist, the fundamentalist logic really appealed to me. (Still does, by the way.) Plus, Twig fellowship was fun, and no one "made" me do anything. :)-->
I was able to resist the "nudgings" over the next several years to go WOW or Way Corps. It was stil assumed that one could have a secular job and still move the Word. I was a TC for several years in the Houston area when classes were running back to back, and Twigs were growing. Leadership (at least from the Limb down) was loving, though the pressure to keep up the pace was wearing a lot of believers out. -->
LCM took over. Wouldn't have been my choice, but I saw the need for a dynamic leader, and he certainly was THAT. Then came all the schisms. I chose to stay with TWI because I thought that any problems would be resolved from within. -->
By the mid-90's there were no other believers close to me, so I started attending another Twig about 40 miles away. It was about that time that every aspect of my life was being scrutinized. Most troubling was the BC's insistence that I sell my house so I could move closer to Twig. I'm glad I resisted, becase that Twig was merged with another shortly thereafter, and I would have had to move again! Now the keys to Biblical research were being used to "prove" things that clearly weren't Biblical, and Twig was less and less fun. And I had fewer friends who were still in. :(-->
But I hung in there. Fear? Pride? Optimism? Probably a little of each. I hung in there until they tossed me out.
Why would I have stayed? I can put myself into someone else's shoes and come up with good reasons. The people who left when I did gave vague reasons for doing so. I don't like "vague." I like specifics. I also don't think it's all that unreasonable to ask someone who is drawing a salary from TWI to actually believe that TWI and its leadership have something unique to offer.
Why did I stay in the offshoot? Comfort. Everyone I knew was there. I am utterly unaware of any hint of a rumor of sexual abuse or misconduct in the offshoot. I ultimately left for purely personal reasons. When my marriage failed I needed a "time out," so to speak, from all this fellowship stuff. I needed time with Him, and in this case I got the distinct sense that I needed to do this alone. I had allowed other people to influence my thoughts for too long, and to be honest, I was so angry with Him that I was afraid I was going to take it out on those around me. So I dropped off the radar screen for a bit.
When I emerged, the doctrine of the offshoot (CBC) was undergoing major changes, and I didn't feel comfortable with those changes. So I started going to a CES fellowship and, while I didn't believe every single thing they uttered, I was pleased that I could express my thoughts and not be shunned. I may not win "CESer of the Year" or anything, but I don't want to, either.
quote:Mormons, Adventists, Pentecostals, Toronto Blessing, Benny Hinn, Ashtar command, Amway, Orion command, Dan Gaymans Church of Israel, Christian Identity ministries... Ive been involved in them all and have read most extensively in all of them.
So are we to understand that you have actually been "involved" as in an adherant in each of the groups you listed above?
Somehow I find that rather difficult to comprehend - that a person that seems as bright as you would jump from one cult to another as a practicing adherant.
Were you ever really a practicing member of any of any of these the groups, or did you just hang out an/or infiltrate them in order to collect material for your book?
I guess what I am asking is, what do you mean by "involved"?
Why did I stay? Every thing was going fine(tolerable) till I went into the WC. Sure there were moments of chaos prior to the corps. You just chalked it up to personal attacks or broken principles. Never concidered the "milk was sour". Rose colored tasting.
I really do not know. I think part of it in the latter 10 years was that we always seemed to get top leaders in this area. KEpt thinking things would change. Did not want to "miss out" on things happening internally. Felt the need to be a part of something. Some of us die hard Corps fools thought we could change things from within, get TWI back like it used to be again.
Sadly it kept getting worse and more harsh and smaller. By design, I believe.
I did not leave. I was asked to leave. The prevalence of the Internet has made it very easy to leave today. No one need feel left out anymore unless you stay in TWI.
Today it is as if the tide has turned. The outsiders are those still in. This includes those still in tiny spin off groups that they really do not enjoy but remain out of obligation or habit.
Speak for yourself! The only "top" leaders we had around Tampa were the Guiles and the Moneyhands - and that was only the last 4 years before we got the boot. Prior to that we had what I consdered to be one of the worst examples of "leadership" possible! You must have blocked them out!
I stuck around because I didn't want you to get the boot because of me and my big mouth. Thank Gawd for the internet. An old ex-way friend told me about Trancechat. The first night I found it I think I stayed up all night reading the archives. It was like someone opened up a window and let me see that ex-Way folks hadn't become Grease Spots!
Then came Waydale and the rest is history.
I knew we were going to get the boot sooner or later because of LCM's mortgage debt doctrine - but the first law suit sorta sped things up and we got booted within a few months of the initial announcement that LCM was stepping down.
When Mr. Guiles kicked us out that night - I couldn't have been more relieved. I think I said "Thank God" out loud. He looked at me funny and I said something like - "I've been wanting to get out for YEARS!" and I think I also told him I'd been on the internet and that I'd used a pseudonym. When I told him the name I used -- he sorta did a double take. I was surprised at his reaction because I know they didn't have internet access at the time. Maybe he'd read Waydale at the Grand Poobah of Florida's house - who knows?
Back to the original question: Why did you stay?
I stayed because I love my husband and wouldn't allow TWI to influence our relationship. But I prayed. And, get this - I prayed almost every day that LCM would do something so stupid that even John wouldn't be able to rationalize his actions. Don't know if it was God answering my prayer - I doubt it. But I think God had a hand in the way LCM went down. How the mighty have fallen....
We enoyed most of VPW's classes and we liked the univercity of Life classes.
We stayed in hoping to attend more of the U of L courses, but then they retracted every course beyond Thess.
I remember a number of times, while I was in port, Bonnie and I would talk about it. We liked having the fellowship, we liked doing PFAL classes. But we hated going to the annual Limb-meeting/corps-recruitment-meetings. In each state, In each Area we loved working with beleivers. But whenever we had to go to Limb and deal with Corps, it was always a bummer. Very negative and demanding.
Before VPW died and "the fog years", I stayed in because I believed that twi was God's only true ministry. I believed then that if I had stayed in residence I probably have become a "tripped out grad" because of all the .... that I suspected was being flung around. My soon to be wife and I discussed leaving but I felt that there would not be a genuine replacement until the original completely failed.(little did I know) My role model was Sgt. Schultz- we actively believed not to get stuff mailed to us or hear things.
Then during the mid 90's it got harder and harder to be a "good" beliver. If I had known that it was possible to live outside the minisrty we would have gladly left but we believed that it was not.
As LCM declared the word had gone over the world our "cult alarm" sounded. But The known pain of staying was beter the unknown horrors of leaving. As the Homo witch hunts and WC clean up began and the WOW and Rock was canceled I could see the highway of holiness narrowing to a knife edge that would become imposible for me to walk, still I hung on.
I had a mental image of myself as a gold fish in a blender, looking at a hand on a switch. It was from a Cartoon- the caption was "you think youv'e got stress". Because fear of the unknown was greater than the fear and pain of continued fellowship, we stayed till they flipped the switch. It was actually a relief- on the way home from our last twig we stopped and rented a movie- one we wanted to see, I remember it was Brave Heart. Looking back I think the last scene where Mel has his guts ripped out while he shouts "freedom" was very apt. It was what our last years in TWi were like.
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Refiner
Well there seems to be a comprehension problem for some who begin to suspect that I am not what I appear.
Clearly some ex Wayers are as paranoid and suspicious as some ex dubs.
I have never been in "the Way". I wouldnt know jack about your church.
However I have been involved in literally dozens of cults while I was researching a book I was writing. Mormons, Adventists, Pentecostals, Toronto Blessing, Benny Hinn, Ashtar command, Amway, Orion command, Dan Gaymans Church of Israel, Christian Identity ministries... Ive been involved in them all and have read most extensively in all of them.
Believe me, I know exactly how they work and I can read between the lines of cult doctrine like a man with Xray eyes.
Thats about it.
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Refiner
Mr Oreilly did say:
.."Count me in on this hand.
Refiner,
I don't believe much of what you have said here at Greasespot. I am not saying that you are a bad person, just that you have not been honest here."..
Is that so?
And what exactly have I said that you have difficulty believing I haver been "honest" about??
Think about it and answer at your leisure,
Ive got plenty of time.
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JustThinking
RoR quote:
"Why did I stay? Because I thought I was right."
Amen. I thought the same way. When I saw more and more things that were wrong, it was tempting to just rationalize:
"It was just one person"
"That was bad but it's been fixed..."
"It's still better that what else is out there"
"...but I love so many people here."
The last one was hardest. I really did love some of the folks there and
still miss them. Kind-hearted men and women that get taken advantage of by TWI.
I know they're big boys and girls. No lectures on personal responsibility please.
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waterbuffalo
Refiner said:
Look, I was not criticizing you, just asking you what you meant. Did you mean JWs only or were you REALLY involved in other cults...meaning you were IN and BELIEVED in what they taught.
Forgive me, but RESEARCHING life on other planets is NOT the same as living on them and researching a number of cults is not the same as BEING in them.
I was just asking you to clarify what you meant since you did, and let's be honest, say it as an answer to "Why did you stay" and "in The Way" was clearly implied. So, if your answer pertains to the JWs, why not just say so?
Stay as long as you like. I'm glad you're here.
Also, do you mind telling us what the name of your book is? Many of us here would probably like to read it. I know I would.
WB
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Pirate1974
Why did I get in and why did I stay as long as I did?
I was in love. That was the ONLY reason.
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WordWolf
Refiner,
In all honesty,
You DIDN'T specify in this thread that you were talking about why
you stayed so long in YOUR ex-group (JW's) rather than twi.
So, someone reading ONLY this thread would clearly read it as you
saying you were involved in twi, and left later.
Some of us were involved in other threads where you made that clear.
Not EVERYBODY follows those threads.
Please review your posts briefly to help avoid innocent
misunderstandings.
On the other hand,
the GSC has had a long tradition (longer than the GSC, really) of
having WayGB and infiltraitors from twi show up, lie, attempt to gain
the confidence of people here, and attempt to derail threads or
learn secrets of our personal lives. Paranoia's part of the game
here, since spying and duplicity are part of the game here. People
have learned to be paranoid.
(Me, I'm nobody twi should care about, identity-wise, but few here
know my name, and few know my face-and those have met me in person.
Others here DO have twi searching for them.)
So, look forward to a little paranoia here. We worked hard for it,
we owe it to ourselves, and we refuse to deprive ourselves of it,
even for you.
;)-->
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Tom Strange
tough group eh refiner? Like WW says, it may mean that you gotta drop in a "JW" here and there because (especially in this section of threads called 'about the way') it will be assumed that you are speaking of TWI... just drop in an extra "JW" for reference and it will help with the understanding of where you're coming from...
...I haven't 'seen' anything yet that makes me not believe what you're saying, we're just a naturally skeptical group here... like WW said...
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Steve!
My point was exactly the same as yours, Goey - I wasn't saying anything at all against James, just making a comment about how close his cult sounded to ours.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Back to the thread...
When I first took PFAL (1978), it was my first real introduction to the Bible. As a scientist, the fundamentalist logic really appealed to me. (Still does, by the way.) Plus, Twig fellowship was fun, and no one "made" me do anything.
:)-->
I was able to resist the "nudgings" over the next several years to go WOW or Way Corps. It was stil assumed that one could have a secular job and still move the Word. I was a TC for several years in the Houston area when classes were running back to back, and Twigs were growing. Leadership (at least from the Limb down) was loving, though the pressure to keep up the pace was wearing a lot of believers out.
-->
LCM took over. Wouldn't have been my choice, but I saw the need for a dynamic leader, and he certainly was THAT. Then came all the schisms. I chose to stay with TWI because I thought that any problems would be resolved from within.
-->
By the mid-90's there were no other believers close to me, so I started attending another Twig about 40 miles away. It was about that time that every aspect of my life was being scrutinized. Most troubling was the BC's insistence that I sell my house so I could move closer to Twig. I'm glad I resisted, becase that Twig was merged with another shortly thereafter, and I would have had to move again! Now the keys to Biblical research were being used to "prove" things that clearly weren't Biblical, and Twig was less and less fun. And I had fewer friends who were still in.
:(-->
But I hung in there. Fear? Pride? Optimism? Probably a little of each. I hung in there until they tossed me out.
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Oakspear
Originally I thought that the truth taught outweighed any human weaknesses that might crop up.
Later, when I realized that there wasn't as much truth as I thought, I stayed to preserve my family.
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Raf
I didn't stay.
Why would I have stayed? I can put myself into someone else's shoes and come up with good reasons. The people who left when I did gave vague reasons for doing so. I don't like "vague." I like specifics. I also don't think it's all that unreasonable to ask someone who is drawing a salary from TWI to actually believe that TWI and its leadership have something unique to offer.
Why did I stay in the offshoot? Comfort. Everyone I knew was there. I am utterly unaware of any hint of a rumor of sexual abuse or misconduct in the offshoot. I ultimately left for purely personal reasons. When my marriage failed I needed a "time out," so to speak, from all this fellowship stuff. I needed time with Him, and in this case I got the distinct sense that I needed to do this alone. I had allowed other people to influence my thoughts for too long, and to be honest, I was so angry with Him that I was afraid I was going to take it out on those around me. So I dropped off the radar screen for a bit.
When I emerged, the doctrine of the offshoot (CBC) was undergoing major changes, and I didn't feel comfortable with those changes. So I started going to a CES fellowship and, while I didn't believe every single thing they uttered, I was pleased that I could express my thoughts and not be shunned. I may not win "CESer of the Year" or anything, but I don't want to, either.
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Goey
Refiner,
You posted:
So are we to understand that you have actually been "involved" as in an adherant in each of the groups you listed above?
Somehow I find that rather difficult to comprehend - that a person that seems as bright as you would jump from one cult to another as a practicing adherant.
Were you ever really a practicing member of any of any of these the groups, or did you just hang out an/or infiltrate them in order to collect material for your book?
I guess what I am asking is, what do you mean by "involved"?
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imbus
Why did I stay? Every thing was going fine(tolerable) till I went into the WC. Sure there were moments of chaos prior to the corps. You just chalked it up to personal attacks or broken principles. Never concidered the "milk was sour". Rose colored tasting.
I got a lot of my secondary needs meet.
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igotout
I really do not know. I think part of it in the latter 10 years was that we always seemed to get top leaders in this area. KEpt thinking things would change. Did not want to "miss out" on things happening internally. Felt the need to be a part of something. Some of us die hard Corps fools thought we could change things from within, get TWI back like it used to be again.
Sadly it kept getting worse and more harsh and smaller. By design, I believe.
I did not leave. I was asked to leave. The prevalence of the Internet has made it very easy to leave today. No one need feel left out anymore unless you stay in TWI.
Today it is as if the tide has turned. The outsiders are those still in. This includes those still in tiny spin off groups that they really do not enjoy but remain out of obligation or habit.
John Richeson
Tampa, FL
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Hope R.
Outyougo!
Speak for yourself! The only "top" leaders we had around Tampa were the Guiles and the Moneyhands - and that was only the last 4 years before we got the boot. Prior to that we had what I consdered to be one of the worst examples of "leadership" possible! You must have blocked them out!
I stuck around because I didn't want you to get the boot because of me and my big mouth. Thank Gawd for the internet. An old ex-way friend told me about Trancechat. The first night I found it I think I stayed up all night reading the archives. It was like someone opened up a window and let me see that ex-Way folks hadn't become Grease Spots!
Then came Waydale and the rest is history.
I knew we were going to get the boot sooner or later because of LCM's mortgage debt doctrine - but the first law suit sorta sped things up and we got booted within a few months of the initial announcement that LCM was stepping down.
When Mr. Guiles kicked us out that night - I couldn't have been more relieved. I think I said "Thank God" out loud. He looked at me funny and I said something like - "I've been wanting to get out for YEARS!" and I think I also told him I'd been on the internet and that I'd used a pseudonym. When I told him the name I used -- he sorta did a double take. I was surprised at his reaction because I know they didn't have internet access at the time. Maybe he'd read Waydale at the Grand Poobah of Florida's house - who knows?
Back to the original question: Why did you stay?
I stayed because I love my husband and wouldn't allow TWI to influence our relationship. But I prayed. And, get this - I prayed almost every day that LCM would do something so stupid that even John wouldn't be able to rationalize his actions. Don't know if it was God answering my prayer - I doubt it. But I think God had a hand in the way LCM went down. How the mighty have fallen....
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Tom Strange
yipee!
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Galen
We enoyed most of VPW's classes and we liked the univercity of Life classes.
We stayed in hoping to attend more of the U of L courses, but then they retracted every course beyond Thess.
I remember a number of times, while I was in port, Bonnie and I would talk about it. We liked having the fellowship, we liked doing PFAL classes. But we hated going to the annual Limb-meeting/corps-recruitment-meetings. In each state, In each Area we loved working with beleivers. But whenever we had to go to Limb and deal with Corps, it was always a bummer. Very negative and demanding.
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ckeer
Before VPW died and "the fog years", I stayed in because I believed that twi was God's only true ministry. I believed then that if I had stayed in residence I probably have become a "tripped out grad" because of all the .... that I suspected was being flung around. My soon to be wife and I discussed leaving but I felt that there would not be a genuine replacement until the original completely failed.(little did I know) My role model was Sgt. Schultz- we actively believed not to get stuff mailed to us or hear things.
Then during the mid 90's it got harder and harder to be a "good" beliver. If I had known that it was possible to live outside the minisrty we would have gladly left but we believed that it was not.
As LCM declared the word had gone over the world our "cult alarm" sounded. But The known pain of staying was beter the unknown horrors of leaving. As the Homo witch hunts and WC clean up began and the WOW and Rock was canceled I could see the highway of holiness narrowing to a knife edge that would become imposible for me to walk, still I hung on.
I had a mental image of myself as a gold fish in a blender, looking at a hand on a switch. It was from a Cartoon- the caption was "you think youv'e got stress". Because fear of the unknown was greater than the fear and pain of continued fellowship, we stayed till they flipped the switch. It was actually a relief- on the way home from our last twig we stopped and rented a movie- one we wanted to see, I remember it was Brave Heart. Looking back I think the last scene where Mel has his guts ripped out while he shouts "freedom" was very apt. It was what our last years in TWi were like.
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