First of all, it's Wierwille, get the spelling right.
Second, I was never taught in TWI salvation is by works, but by confessing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and believing in my heart that God raised Him from the dead.
Nor was I taught in PFAL that only TWI followers are saved. See Rom 10:9-10. Maybe they've amended their teachings by now. PFAL also taught that salvation is by grace.
I think this chart makes it even worse than it is. There's enough bad to be said without adding to it.
Okay. I actually had the unmitigated audacity to defend TWI/PFAL.
"I think this chart makes it even worse than it is. There's enough bad to be said without adding to it."
True. Making up completely false accusations is pretty low.
PFAL teaches that salvation is by confessing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and believing in my heart that God raised Him from the dead. As per 10:9-10. by grace available to anyone who beleives, not anything exclusive to TWI.
I agree as well to these responses. Another point is the claim that Christianity teaches that the Resurrection means "Jesus rose in the same body he died in." and TWI agrees "Yes"
Wrong on both counts...like Paul said, " Thou fool..." ICor 15:35-50
I was always taught, in denominations as well as TWI, that the spiritual body the New Testament describes is distinctly different from the flesh and blood we are toting around now. Hey, even JC was able to do a lot more after his resurrection than before.
Not so much to defend TWI than to defend the truth. Those who misrepresent the facts are most likely hiding something themselves.
I can't and won't defend PFAL or TWI but they definitely got the chart wrong when it comes to the Way. How can you see someone who makes such fundamental goofs as these as being credible in the least?
But as someone who no longer subscribes to any doctrine or dogma at all, I don't view what I see as silly doctrinal nitpicking as the reason for TWI's culthood. TWI is a cult because of how we were (are?) brainwashed into patterns of behavior and thought, not because of the validity or lack thereof of the Trinity or baptism or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and if you are allowed to pray to them.
But I see that I'm definitely in a minority when it comes to that. When I see something that can absolutely only be explained in supernatural terms, I'll think about reconsidering my rejection of the supernatural. I'm not holding my breath.
Until then, I think it's all anal hairsplitting and not germane to the real problem. Which is behavior and thought modification. Which is much harder to objectively quantify than points of law or doctrinal differences.
Wow. Derail. Sorry. Bad chart, not credible. That's all.
Maybe their comparisons are based on what the sect "practices" as opposed to what they preach? Some of it could be right if taken in that light. TWI does make it's standard of fellowship "works" and Mike does think that PFAL replaces the Bible.
Minor derailment here. I love Jason P's quote defining religion. I'd like to use it, and would like to know to whom to attribute it. Is it yours Jason, or, if not, do you know who orginally said it?
"re•li•gion (ri-lij'un),—n. a magic device for turning unanswerable questions into unquestionable answers"
At any rate, it is the best defintion of religion I have ever heard!
Very interesting list. Maybe it's just me but it seems a little odd. Click on Islam and read the "read this first" page. Whoever writes these things goes to great length to make sure that there isn't even a teeny weeny eensy bit of a chance that no Muslim will be insulted by what he writes and how he knows there are many honest, decent and swell Muslims and that doggonit if they are errors or misrepresentations to please write him directly so that he can make a reasonable effort to correct it if he deems it necessary.
Yet, there's no such disclaimer/message/appeal for the writ on the pages for Jehovah's Witnesses. Or Wayfers. Read the first link on the Mormons Introduction bullet list. No appeal for accuracy, decency and communication, nothing about all the good and honest Your-cult-name-goes-here adherents to the other cults he lists.
I saw so many outright lies that I figured I must be onto something great for religious fools to misrepresent it so badly.
Anyone ever read the book (don't remember the title or author so help me if you do) that made the claim that twigs were "political meetings" encouraging people to take over their local governments and that "twig" stood for "The Word In Government?" A whole book on the Way and it was researched THAT poorly.
The definition: paraphrased from a quote that I've seen attributed mainly to Art Gecko but also other miscellaneous folks. Hence the slight change and no attribution - I'm just not 100% sure (and don't know who Art Gecko is, even though Google's handy...) I'm sure Google would help more than I have.
WG- I agree with ya--but, it was works ...from then on...at least everything else we did sure seemed like our works were the apex of good and bad results. (closer to karma really)
I like it when TWI gets lumped in with other cults. It reminds me that I chose only one of the many, many package tours to hell.*
Heck, I'm just about dumb enough, I could have gone to TWI on Monday night and Scientology another night - but I didn't, and for that I'm truly proud. I was faithful to just one erroneous way. That counts for something, doesn't it?
*(Well, it felt like hell to me. Or, it sure felt like escape from hell when I left.)
WG, they teach that anyone can be saved, but only the faithful are in the Household and going to receive rewards at the bema and are currently allowed the protection and blessings of God.
They even teach that the Epistles are written to them and them alone because they are written to "The Faithful in Christ." And remember that "no one can truly say that Jesus is Lord but by spirit (e.g. speaking in tongues). So, just because someone claims Romans 10:9-10, if they don't speak in tongues they can't really claim to be born again.
Those who don't give minimum 15% of their income to TWI (not just give to whomever they choose), won't get God's spit.
They may as well teach that they are the only ones who can be saved as far as I'm concerned. In fact, it seems like that's what they do teach when you really look at it.
Guess all that would be a big surprise to those down through the centuries who've believed, eh? So God held the epistles in abeyance just for TWI, and they applied to no one else?
I think that's just a tad egotistical, when one considers that at least part of the first century church would be eliminated by that statement, and folks like Martin Luther, and other great believers from the past.
Oh, but then did Martin Luther speak in tongues? Guess he was a phoney if he didn't, eh?
That's sad, Goey. He's in a position to really help people, but if he can't be trusted then all he's doing is pushing people toward cults because if one thing is known to be a lie then everything else is chalked up as being lies as well.
I have a strong disagreement with anyone who states a group is a cult based on their beliefs. This methodology is subject to wide interpretation and is not accurate.
I am finishing a research paper and writing a book on this subject based on extensive interviews with professionals in the mental health field and law enforcement.
My opinion is that the standard model of either a group being a cult or not is too restrictive and does not truly reflect whether a group is a serious threat of not to its members and society.
In my opinion, rating a group by its behavior towards its members and society is the only was to get an accurate picture.
Criteria such as:
1) Does the group have wierd beliefs but doesn't bother other people? If so they are benine (level 1) and should not be of concern.
2) At the extreme (level 6) the group's religious beliefs are enforced against its members and society as a whole with exterme violence up to and including mass murder.
For example, TWI falls within level 4-5 by the criteria I have developed as a Destructive Cult or a Millitant Destructive Cult.
It all boils down to how far will the group's leaders go in the enforcement of its beliefs or policies against its members, but more importantly, against outsiders. How much in the way of criminal acts will the group employ to get its way.
A link to the work in progress is below. I hope to finish this project in the next month or so.
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Watered Garden
First of all, it's Wierwille, get the spelling right.
Second, I was never taught in TWI salvation is by works, but by confessing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and believing in my heart that God raised Him from the dead.
Nor was I taught in PFAL that only TWI followers are saved. See Rom 10:9-10. Maybe they've amended their teachings by now. PFAL also taught that salvation is by grace.
I think this chart makes it even worse than it is. There's enough bad to be said without adding to it.
Okay. I actually had the unmitigated audacity to defend TWI/PFAL.
LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!!!!
WG
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Galen
Watered Garden:
"First . . . Second . . . "
Agreed.
"I think this chart makes it even worse than it is. There's enough bad to be said without adding to it."
True. Making up completely false accusations is pretty low.
PFAL teaches that salvation is by confessing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and believing in my heart that God raised Him from the dead. As per 10:9-10. by grace available to anyone who beleives, not anything exclusive to TWI.
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CompletelyComplete
I agree as well to these responses. Another point is the claim that Christianity teaches that the Resurrection means "Jesus rose in the same body he died in." and TWI agrees "Yes"
Wrong on both counts...like Paul said, " Thou fool..." ICor 15:35-50
I was always taught, in denominations as well as TWI, that the spiritual body the New Testament describes is distinctly different from the flesh and blood we are toting around now. Hey, even JC was able to do a lot more after his resurrection than before.
Not so much to defend TWI than to defend the truth. Those who misrepresent the facts are most likely hiding something themselves.
CompComp
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Jason P
I can't and won't defend PFAL or TWI but they definitely got the chart wrong when it comes to the Way. How can you see someone who makes such fundamental goofs as these as being credible in the least?
But as someone who no longer subscribes to any doctrine or dogma at all, I don't view what I see as silly doctrinal nitpicking as the reason for TWI's culthood. TWI is a cult because of how we were (are?) brainwashed into patterns of behavior and thought, not because of the validity or lack thereof of the Trinity or baptism or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and if you are allowed to pray to them.
But I see that I'm definitely in a minority when it comes to that. When I see something that can absolutely only be explained in supernatural terms, I'll think about reconsidering my rejection of the supernatural. I'm not holding my breath.
Until then, I think it's all anal hairsplitting and not germane to the real problem. Which is behavior and thought modification. Which is much harder to objectively quantify than points of law or doctrinal differences.
Wow. Derail. Sorry. Bad chart, not credible. That's all.
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Tom Strange
TWI has a Bible?
Yeah... these folks don't have much of it right.
Maybe their comparisons are based on what the sect "practices" as opposed to what they preach? Some of it could be right if taken in that light. TWI does make it's standard of fellowship "works" and Mike does think that PFAL replaces the Bible.
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oldiesman
With a name like Matthew J. Slick, is it that surprising that his information is erroneous?
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WordWolf
This is an OLD chart.
It was denomination STUPIDITY like this that served the opposite
purpose to what they intended.
twi claimed that all denominations were foolish and filled with
no-nothing idiots.
Denominations, when mentioning twi, mindlessly parroted these
OBVIOUSLY false claims, which were EASY to look into-
but they DIDN'T.
These fools did a better job of convincing me to stay with twi
than anything twi did.
twi's evils have nothing to do with this chart, and don't fit
in so neatly on an "evilness" chart.
Just about EVERYBODY claimed twi made up its OWN Bible, or only
used Lamsa's. That was laughingly easy to disprove.
EVERY wayfer owned at least one copy of the King James Version,
which they used almost exclusively. SOME wayfers had the Lamsa
version-which is hardly a twi Bible. Has anyone here walked into
a Christian bookstore or a Barnes & Noble and bought it?
You could, I've seen it in both places.
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2fortheroad
Minor derailment here. I love Jason P's quote defining religion. I'd like to use it, and would like to know to whom to attribute it. Is it yours Jason, or, if not, do you know who orginally said it?
"re•li•gion (ri-lij'un),—n. a magic device for turning unanswerable questions into unquestionable answers"
At any rate, it is the best defintion of religion I have ever heard!
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socks
Very interesting list. Maybe it's just me but it seems a little odd. Click on Islam and read the "read this first" page. Whoever writes these things goes to great length to make sure that there isn't even a teeny weeny eensy bit of a chance that no Muslim will be insulted by what he writes and how he knows there are many honest, decent and swell Muslims and that doggonit if they are errors or misrepresentations to please write him directly so that he can make a reasonable effort to correct it if he deems it necessary.
Yet, there's no such disclaimer/message/appeal for the writ on the pages for Jehovah's Witnesses. Or Wayfers. Read the first link on the Mormons Introduction bullet list. No appeal for accuracy, decency and communication, nothing about all the good and honest Your-cult-name-goes-here adherents to the other cults he lists.
I wonder why that is?
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Jason P
Wordwolf: Amen
I saw so many outright lies that I figured I must be onto something great for religious fools to misrepresent it so badly.
Anyone ever read the book (don't remember the title or author so help me if you do) that made the claim that twigs were "political meetings" encouraging people to take over their local governments and that "twig" stood for "The Word In Government?" A whole book on the Way and it was researched THAT poorly.
The definition: paraphrased from a quote that I've seen attributed mainly to Art Gecko but also other miscellaneous folks. Hence the slight change and no attribution - I'm just not 100% sure (and don't know who Art Gecko is, even though Google's handy...) I'm sure Google would help more than I have.
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washingtonweather
WG- I agree with ya--but, it was works ...from then on...at least everything else we did sure seemed like our works were the apex of good and bad results. (closer to karma really)
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Juan Cruz
I like it when TWI gets lumped in with other cults. It reminds me that I chose only one of the many, many package tours to hell.*
Heck, I'm just about dumb enough, I could have gone to TWI on Monday night and Scientology another night - but I didn't, and for that I'm truly proud. I was faithful to just one erroneous way. That counts for something, doesn't it?
*(Well, it felt like hell to me. Or, it sure felt like escape from hell when I left.)
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Belle
WG, they teach that anyone can be saved, but only the faithful are in the Household and going to receive rewards at the bema and are currently allowed the protection and blessings of God.
They even teach that the Epistles are written to them and them alone because they are written to "The Faithful in Christ." And remember that "no one can truly say that Jesus is Lord but by spirit (e.g. speaking in tongues). So, just because someone claims Romans 10:9-10, if they don't speak in tongues they can't really claim to be born again.
Those who don't give minimum 15% of their income to TWI (not just give to whomever they choose), won't get God's spit.
They may as well teach that they are the only ones who can be saved as far as I'm concerned. In fact, it seems like that's what they do teach when you really look at it.
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Watered Garden
Guess all that would be a big surprise to those down through the centuries who've believed, eh? So God held the epistles in abeyance just for TWI, and they applied to no one else?
I think that's just a tad egotistical, when one considers that at least part of the first century church would be eliminated by that statement, and folks like Martin Luther, and other great believers from the past.
Oh, but then did Martin Luther speak in tongues? Guess he was a phoney if he didn't, eh?
What a lot of organic fertilizer.
WG
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Goey
I contacted Matt Slick several years ago to in an effort to correct these errors. We had dialog via 5 or so emails.
He was not interested in the facts. With him the result justified the means to get there.
The man is not credible at all, and sees himself as being called to expose cults, even if he has to lie or distort the facts to do so.
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Belle
That's sad, Goey. He's in a position to really help people, but if he can't be trusted then all he's doing is pushing people toward cults because if one thing is known to be a lie then everything else is chalked up as being lies as well.
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Pirate1974
Obviously, this clown doesn't update his site very often.
This is a quote off his "List of Cults" page:
How long has that thing been gone?
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pjroberge
Pirate:
Actually, The Way College of Emporia is still an active corporation in good standing. Gotta wonder....Link to comment
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JustThinking
Isn't it ironic that this guy is no better than TWI in that he has his own "theology" and feels free to ignore facts?
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pjroberge
I have a strong disagreement with anyone who states a group is a cult based on their beliefs. This methodology is subject to wide interpretation and is not accurate.
I am finishing a research paper and writing a book on this subject based on extensive interviews with professionals in the mental health field and law enforcement.
My opinion is that the standard model of either a group being a cult or not is too restrictive and does not truly reflect whether a group is a serious threat of not to its members and society.
In my opinion, rating a group by its behavior towards its members and society is the only was to get an accurate picture.
Criteria such as:
1) Does the group have wierd beliefs but doesn't bother other people? If so they are benine (level 1) and should not be of concern.
2) At the extreme (level 6) the group's religious beliefs are enforced against its members and society as a whole with exterme violence up to and including mass murder.
For example, TWI falls within level 4-5 by the criteria I have developed as a Destructive Cult or a Millitant Destructive Cult.
It all boils down to how far will the group's leaders go in the enforcement of its beliefs or policies against its members, but more importantly, against outsiders. How much in the way of criminal acts will the group employ to get its way.
A link to the work in progress is below. I hope to finish this project in the next month or so.
http://www.excultworld.com/cult_chart.htm
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oldiesman
Unless there's ample evidence otherwise, I'd probably today put twi at #2. I'd also put the Roman Catholics there as well.
I might have put these groups at 3-4 during past years with the sex scandals ... but due to the bad publicity, they may have gotten better as of late.
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pjroberge
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JustThinking
PJ,
"1) Does the group have wierd beliefs but doesn't bother other people? If so they are benine (level 1) and should not be of concern."
Do you think the word "weird" is a little subjective and vague?
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bowtwi
Pat, I sent you a PT.
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