Momentus.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

I second what pjroberge said about JAL trying to talk him into taking Momentous. John also tried to convince me by phoning me. I like John, but there was no way in hell I was ever going to take that class based on the initial secrecy and deception of it alone. Imagine being held to secrecy on a class? What is this the mafia? Or is this a version of TWI's lock box teaching?

I told John that I would only be interested in Momentous if it was similar to Paul's first century School of Tyranus where the believers met and had open dialogue. Then John L. lied to me and said that Momentous was. From every report I have ever heard on Mementous it is clear that John lied to me regarding Momentous and yes I new this at the time he spoke it. Momentous is the opposite of Paul's school. Steve is right. I still like John and consider him a friend. However, John and others should repent of their foolish and deliberate deception regarding Momentous.

One final point, if there is anyone that still has a positive thing to say about Momentous then let them first publicly tell us here on this thread what went on at the class that they attended. Otherwise, they are just deceivers either deliberate or otherwise.

[excathedra]

johnnysocks that was inspired utterance

mwah

[socks]

:)-->

I moved my lips, my tongue, my fingers....Wait, better stop, this should go on the Open Forums "Let's Talk About Sex" thread.

Maybe this is why we don't talk about sex on GS. After thinking about Momentus I don't feel like it, I got a headache. "Again? We just did it last year!" kind of a feeling. Which could be a good thing in certain circumstance, pardon the pun. Sort of a mental cold shower, a full-brain condom. Birth Control For The Philosophical. Dunno. --> Either way, lest this derail become an outright train wreck I'll stop now before it's "too late".

[Tom Strange]

It's never too late OLM Socks!

[TheEvan]

1. socks, you are toooo funny!

2. Steve, I'll say it a bit slower: I --have --nothing --to --repent --of regarding my participation. I wasn't harmed. I participated, didn't go to the nut house, nor start having wacky revelations (or whatever) and the hold harmless provisions I signed became moot. Geez, I wasn't making a Holy Commitment To Gawd. End of story.

3. I don't speak Greek. And haven't you noticed that speaking Greek hasn't helped the Greeks to be more spiritual? But I understand English just fine, thank you. As I'm sure you do.

I'm sorry a number people were harmed in that thing. I hope they've changed their methods (BTW, your experience and mine don't quite jibe) from what you report, or, if they haven't, stop the heck operating. From what I'm hearing, I'm glad I didn't recommend it to others...

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Evan, seeing that you have taken Momentous, why don't you make an actual contribution to this thread and tell us what went on at your class? Perhaps you could also give us the year that you took the class. So far you have contributed nothing here except a cult like zeal. Steve, on the other hand, has shared some of his actual experiences. Can you do the same?

[CKnapp3]

Steve,

In light of recent strong remarks I have made here at greasespot, I personally would think I'm a little too bullheaded to be broken. What do you think? Or does Momentus do a crash version of "Love Bombing" first to get you to drop your defenses? Also, you can break glass with punishment, but some things actually get tempered with the same punishment. Steel would be one of them. Just a thought.

[ex10]

Oh geeze,

I admit I'm busy working and haven't read all the "he said, she said" or whatever. I have to confess, I was at the same Momentous training that Steve was at, and I was very close to Bill while he was there. He was wonderful, a cool person that I had the chance to get to know there. I don't agree with his assessment of events, but he had his experience, I had mine. I feel like I am a better person for knowing him. :)-->

I'm not gonna argue with anyone over what happened, what it was like, etc. You walk away with what you got. If somebody feels like it totally (please excuse my language, sucked) I am so sorry for saying that, but it could describe the experience for some, evidently.

It didn't for me. I feel like what I have to say is just as valid as anybody else. :)-->

PS I am glad, like Evan, that I didn't reccommend it to anyone else. My conscious is clear on that matter. I'm just talking personal experience here.

PSS Steve, I remember you and think the world of you as well. Would this happen in normal life?

Edited July 17, 2004 by ex10

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Ex10:

Since you have taken this class why don't you too make an actual contribution to this forum by sharing actual experiences? This is much better than being vague and saying you liked it, but we are not sure why. Please tell us what occurred at the class that you took. If you did in fact like the class like you say you did, please tell us what actual experiences there did you like?

[ex10]

Mark,

I would really love to get into the conversation, but I'm like working about 60 or 70 hours a week right now, and I am POOPED. Maybe I'll catch up this weekend........ :)-->

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Thank you Ex10. I understand. I too am working a number of hours myself. Maybe when you get a little free time you can share. Have a good night.

[dmiller]

quote:

---

posted by Steve Lortz:

To this day, the principals of CES are using things they learned in Momentus to rationalize their errors. They may have TRIED to put OUR REMEMBRANCE of their past errors behind us, but they have NOT moved on to bigger and better things.

---

Thank you for the reply. If you worked at the home office of CES, you know more than I do about what their motives are. My comment was mainly directed to the fact that they do not "teach" or "promote" momentous anymore.

Perhaps they still use the "principles" learned in it, the same way we use "principals of research" we learned in twi days?? I don't know.

But I WILL check out what you said about dispensationalism and Romans 9-11. Sounds interesting. And though I am a big proponent for dispensationalism, I'm willing to look at what you cited, and see whazzzzz up!

God bless! :)-->

[TheEvan]

"So far you have contributed nothing here except a cult like zeal."

That totally misrepresents my contributions on the subject. I have nothing to say to you.

[pjroberge]

From one of the articles on Ex-Cultworld about the group:

quote:

---

Today Mashiyach Ministries operates a thriving business, providing trainings throughout the nation several times each month and offering a variety of courses from the Momentus trainings for novices to advanced leadership seminars for trainers.

The initial individual fee has dropped from $300 to $150, which the local sponsors of the four-day seminar collect and keep. The $150 is collected with the initial application fee and is non-refundable, even if the trainer declines to allow a potential student to attend on the basis of his or her application.

At the end of the basic training, an offering is taken from participants and turned over to Mashiyach Ministries. This arrangement provides a strong incentive for local sponsors to hold as many trainings and recruit as many participants as possible, since local sponsors have a direct financial benefit from frequent, large sessions.

Additionally, by conducting the “free-will” offering at the end of the training, Mashiyach Ministries realizes its maximum benefit from grateful new graduates before they have a chance to think twice about their experiences.

As one recent graduate told the JOURNAL concerning his donation, “If I was willing to invest $150 in something I hadn’t even experienced and knew relatively little about, how much more do you think I was willing to give when I thought I had just experienced the greatest life-transforming event of my Christian walk?”

---

[Yanagisawa]

I did Momentus about 10 yrs ago. I personally experienced a breakthrough that has benefitted my life in several aspects - personally, professionally, and spiritually - ever since.

I heard it was dangerous...yes, and?

I heard it was a cult...you mean sorta like the one I just spent 15 yrs in?

I heard it bent your mind...like the drugs and propaganda from my college professors?

Let's see...shall I do Momentus?...dare I eat a peach?...It's all so unsafe...the experts wrote articles about it...my "arranged for" world might come a little unglued...

I say we need more seminars that require release forms.

[houseisarockin]

quote:

---

Posted by houseisarockin:

Has there ever been ones contacted by students of this program that indicated calling and digging up old bones was not best for the recipient's life?

---

Question please...those of you that have been a part of this program...has there ever been anyone that you contacted to ask forgiveness of that have in reply stated it was not the best for their life for you to have called and reminded them (dug up bones)? And what were you taught regarding that response, or was that covered? Just curious is all, not stating an opinion one way or other on the program.

[Steve Lortz]

The Evan - If you ever want to know what Momentus really did to your life, and continues to do, you will have to change your commitment to the unthinking promise you made to regard EVERYTHING they did there as harmless. It wasn't. It still isn't.

Love,

Steve

[TheEvan]

Steve, it is YOU that doesn't know what Momentus did to or for me. YOU are not ME. I am ME. I was Me in the seminar I went. I know what experience I had. The horse you're beating just seems silly to me. Sorry.

[Steve Lortz]

Evan - YOU swore a solemn oath that you would completely disregard ANYTHING harmful that Momentus did to you, even if they killed you through their own negligence.

If you made that oath at your heart level, then Momentus has to seem like a fine thing in your own heart. In your own heart, you WILL NOT RECOGNIZE anything about Momentus as harmful, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU PROMISED!

It's not silly, and it's not a dead horse. It was sixteen months between the time I took the Momentus training and the time I realized I needed to repent of signing the hold harmless agreement. When I finally did repent, a lot of things began to fall into place in my understanding, regarding bad things that were happening in my life.

The reason Jeremiah says the heart is deceitful above all things is because we are inclined to believe whatever comes out of it. After all, we're the ones who put those things in there to begin with. That's why we need the Word as a critic for the thoughts and intents of our hearts.

Momentus messes with people at the heart level, Evan. The designers and trainers of Momentus are deliberately deceitful. CES and many of the people who became local sponsors were not DELIBERATELY deceitful. They were UNTHINKINGLY deceitful, simply following the Momentus handbook.

Momentus uses deceitful means to plant deceitful things in people's hearts, Evan. ALL OF US who took Momentus were DECEIVED.

If you do not renounce, at your heart level, your unthinking promise to hold Momentus harmless, you will NEVER recognize, this side of judgment, the deception Momentus planted in your heart.

Love,

Steve

P.S. - It's no wonder the horse I am beating seems silly to you, Evan. You PROMISED that it would.

[excathedra]

grads of momentus....

you know when people say, "i got so much good from twi...." how do you think that compares to when you say "i got so much good from momentus" ?

i'm not trying to paint it all black and white

but some people can say, twi was great for me but maybe not for everybody

i hope you know what i mean

if not, then just ignore me and carry on :)-->

[Steve Lortz]

CKnapp3 - The people who think they can't be broken are often the easiest to break. They tend not to consider the possibilities.

The harder you fight the Momentus trainers, the more committed to Momentus you will become when you finally DO break. That's what happened with Mark Graeser.

The reason I came out of Momentus relatively unscathed was because I reverted to my USN bootcamp startegy of maintaining the lowest profile possible. I remember thinking to myself, "If I could make it through ten weeks of bootcamp, I can make it through four days of this!"

Unwittingly, I had put a four-day limit on my commitment to Momentus. Unfortunately for others, like the CES principals, they apparently didn't do anything similar, and are still stuck to the tar-baby.

Love,

Steve

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Yes Evan and Yanagisawa. When you were in TWI and the Way Corps you probably liked that also. Probably also experienced some so called break throughs there. Later you tell us that TWI was not so good after all and that you were hurt by it. Weren't we all here hurt by TWI at times.

Now you tell us you liked Momentous, yet you won't give even one example of what you liked about it. Why should we now take your testimonies seriously?

And Excathedra, I know exactly what you are talking about.

Edited July 18, 2004 by Mark Sanguinetti

[TheEvan]

Steve, I know you're sincere and you mean well. I thank you for that.

Mark, I don't need you to take my testimony seriously. I simply don't give a damn. I owe no explanations.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Yet you continue to give it. No examples even given of what you liked let alone what you may feel was wrong. Nothing to share about the class because you apparently made a vow of secrecy. A vow that you should have never made in the first place. A vow that allows Momentous to continue their deceptive practices.

Edited July 18, 2004 by Mark Sanguinetti

[WordWolf]

Hm.

Its strongest advocates here STILL refuse to disclose what's supposedly

so great about this program you're supposed to pay $150 for, sight

unseen.

Me, I paid less than that for pfal, and I had access to a lot more

information about that.

If it's so wonderful, why not allow people an INFORMED decision?

If it's protected by an oath of silence, what is that silence meant to

protect and conceal?

The adamant refusals of the participants to go beyond

"It's wonderful but I can't provide any specifics" tell me more about

how wrong this is than any two testimonies of people who went in to

Momentus and had their lives shredded.