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I can't speak for Evan, but I think you misunderstood his "dense" comment.

And I have never been "ministerized" by anybody in my life. icon_wink.gif;)--> I'm just a normal pedestrian, type Christian, but thanks for the compliment, anyway. icon_smile.gif:)-->

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Thank you Steve Lortz and thank you Patrick Roberge for sharing your Momentous experiences and the experiences of others. And thank you TheInvisibalDan for your concise and well worded summary. Is there anyone else brave enough and clear enough of mind to share their actual Momentous experiences? Can anyone offer any more details on the "confess your sins in the dark" sessions? How does the class conclude? Are there any other details of what occurs?

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I want to thank everyone for their honest answers and for the obvious efforts made to clarify and relate personal experiences with a cooperative and kind attitude.

In all honesty, TheEvan's and Ex10's experiences are quite a bit different from those related to me by others. I gather that the Momentus training has been "modified" or at least is presented differently, depending on where you took it, who administered it and what year you took it...and of course, the most important factor... WHO took it. Again, some benefitted and others did not.

I guess this whole subject came up because of the JAL letter that was re-printed. I've never taken Momentus (and never will), so I am limited to conjecture and speculation. I do find the whole thing curious and must admit, am suspicious of both the techniques employed and the motives of those at "the top" of the Momentus organization. Be that as it may...let each decide for themselves as to which flavor of Koolaid to drink.

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After exhaustive research, consisting entirely of skimming this thread with barf bag and hanky in hand, it became obvious to me what Momentus did for Ex10. The content of her posts provided important clues but her avatar was the one that tied it all together for me. Momentus turned her into a Donna Reed clone, with a perpetual smile on her face. I looked for evidence that it had done something similar for Evan and, sure enough, there it was, in black and white, on page 7. Evan said, “the tick in my face went away [a perpetual smile can explain that], and (much more importantly), I've given much more of myself to my family [sounds just like Donna] since then.” This knowledge helps to clarify Evan’s previous statement, “The three of us [he, his wife, and his sister] are now quite close [like sisters?]...an amazing result.” Amazing indeed! This also explains the mixed reviews of Momentus (being a Donna Reed clone is not for everyone and would traumatize some).

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Thanks for answering, Evan.

From my seat, I can't quite tell if the class Evan took was completely different

in structure from the one the other guy took, or if it was identical, and

subject to different interepretations.

I suspect there WERE substantial differences and a degree of variety between the

classes. I ALSO suspect much of the differences depend on the outlook of the



I'd like to ask a separate question:

For those who took it,

looking back,

do you think the "oath of silence" is a good thing? Why or why not?

(I think those who didn't take it all agree on one side, but we may lack

critical information to make an informed judgement.)


Here's a different digression...

Uncle Hairy,

I'm not going to ask you what fraternity or college....

but I AM going to address something you said about initiation.

It is true that some organizations, both fraternities in college

and organizations outside of college (like Freemasons and so on)

have initiations that are either private or secret, esoteric in

either case. (Not to be shared with outsiders.) These ceremonies

can vary widely. Some are simple and dignified. Some can hurt or kill.

Those that can damage the participant are called "hazing".

To operate in a college, each fraternity must agree to the "no hazing"

policy. Some are serious about it, others pay lip service to it-

"don't get caught". If a member IS subjected to hazing, as either

an adult in an organization, or as a college student in a fraternity,

they are able to bring criminal charges and other charges.

For a fraternity, a single lawsuit can close down a chapter, and damage the

reputation of the national organization, if it has one. Colleges tend to be

severe when people are caught violating the "no-haze" rule.

Some national fraternities have also been known to suspend chapters for even

questionable activities that fall short of standard definitions of hazing.

Anyway, Uncle Hairy,

please give a little od your perspective on that issue.

(I'm leaving the question vague so you can give any answer you want-I'm not

accusing you or yours of anything.)

I DO know a "hold harmless" clause in a document would be thrown out of court in

a hazing lawsuit.

Does anyone here think a "hold harmless" clause is a good idea? If so, why?

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If I recall correctly, most of the "hold harmless" clauses are meaningless in court. They are there simply to assist someone's lawyer in case they get sued or convince the injured to not sue in the first place. For example, some emergency rooms have disclaimers on the wall about the quality of care. They can post anything they like about not being responsible but the law says otherwise. If Momentous were to put someone in harm's way intentionally, I suspect the court would hold them liable regardless of any "contract."

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Thanks, WW and JT, I was just going to say the same thing. Signing such a clause is basically worthless. We have the same thing in gymnastics, and if someone could prove negligence or abuse, he could sue and win, whether he signed such a paper or not.

Dan, thanks for the rewrite of the details of the Momentus class. I was doing that mentally as I read the account, anyway. (You did use the emotionally-charged word "forced" on #6, however.... icon_wink.gif;)--> )

I have never been involved with CES, never heard of Momentus before reading a little about it on Waydale. Here is some of what I am seeing about it from this thread. If you took it, and disagree, feel free to say so:

1.) Momentus costs about $150 (formerly $300) and takes 4 days. Sounds like you have to go someplace to take it, retreat-style.

2.) Students are required to sign a "no blame" disclaimer. My concern here is that the instructors are not mental health professionals who would understand the consequences of pushing the students emotionally. Sometimes, people repress things they are not ready to face.

3.) Students are asked to keep the class a secret. Hmm, major red flag right there.

4.) Students are encouraged to confess their sins, and to make amends to people they have wronged. Like another poster suggested, I would wonder if students were taught that contacting some of their victims would victimize them all over again. (Even AA talks about making amends where possible.

4.) Students are put through a number of exercises and experiences designed to make them think about core issues in their lives, particularly to point out where they are wrong or dishonest about those issues. Some of it sounds very similar to acting class exercises, as someone else noted.

I took such acting classes in college. If anyone has seen the acting class segments on the "Last Action Hero" reality TV show, they are seeing the same thing. The instructor often offers up value judgments about the subjects' lives in an attempt to get them to open up their deeper emotions, and be "honest." They are congratulated when they break into tears and remember painful parts of their pasts. I have seen acting students run screaming through the halls after such classes, just trying to relieve themselves of the emotional overload. I have also seen students become like disciples of the drama teacher, hanging onto her every word about lifestyle, eating habits, politics, and religious belief. (Cult-like, yes.)

It doesn't take a lot of training to create an emotional experience for people. But whether or not that experience will be healthy depends in large part upon the student, who should be very aware of the manipulation being exerted. Perhaps the money could be better spent just renting a cabin alone for a few days.



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Interesting to note that we have what? 3 witnesses that are *pro* and one that is *con* about their Momentous experience.

Humans are that way......... different! icon_biggrin.gif:D-->

People that are *anti* also have a tendency to exaggerate. Possibly a defense mechanism which is understandable, not that any of those that have actually gone through the program and posted here have done this. Crusaders seem to do this as they battle what they are convinced is evil and destructive.

But, what is digging at the back of my mind is questioning talking someone out of participating in a program that may benefit them. Wonder how the *pro’s* would feel if they never did the deed because someone talked them out of it.

Its kind of like football, there is a danger of getting hurt by participating. The Dr.’s that point this out and have the stats to prove their points are considered nothing more than quacks by true professionals. Might be because there are risks to any endeavor worth pursuing that has possible long-term benefits. The dangers are not just physical, coaches can be pretty mean and abusive!!!!!!

Just some things to think about...................

Thanks Evan and Ex10!!!!!!!!!

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Steve Lortz,

Can you share what a typical day at Momentus was like, if you remember? (redeemed time analysis of momentus? icon_smile.gif:)-->) We seem to be getting mixed reports here and since your experience wasn't as good as the others perhaps you can give us specific accounts leading to your disdain about the training ...

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Posted by shazdancer:

4.) Students are encouraged to confess their sins, and to make amends to people they have wronged. Like another poster suggested, I would wonder if students were taught that contacting some of their victims would victimize them all over again. (Even AA talks about making amends where possible.

Thank you for noticing my question.

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Now that you mention it, we were cautioned about causing problems for others by going and confessing to them. I paid no attention, as it was already common sense to me.

The days were LONG, especially for an early riser like me. 10am, lunch break, dinner break (longer), end after 10pm. There were other breaks as well. But then there was the homework. Sleep deprivation may figure into it for some, though it didn't for me.

BTW, I dug some of the music: Barber's Adagio, Tchaikovsky's serenade for strings, that old Italian Adagio (can't remember the composer right now. The Dylan song "what good am I" reached me. Much of the rest i merely tolerated. not a big fan of CCM here.

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Grizzy, are you being mindfully dishonest, was that just an honest mistake or did I miss someones post here? You said that 3 people here were pro regarding Momentous. Other than Evan and Ex10, who is the third person? Also you seem to have disregarded Steve's posts and his actual examples from the class as to why he did not like it and the many people who have had negative experiences that don't participate on Grease Spot Cafe. This was in contrast to the 2 people who said they liked it here, but had no examples of why this was the case. But by all means, if the class sounds good to you after some of the going ons have been illuminated on this thread then sign the card or whatever they have. Perhaps there is one in your area for you to attend?

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Originally posted by TheEvan:

BTW, I dug some of the music: Barber's Adagio, Tchaikovsky's serenade for strings, that old Italian Adagio (can't remember the composer right now. The Dylan song "what good am I" reached me. Much of the rest i merely tolerated. not a big fan of CCM here.

I was going ask about that (lol). I had wondered if they played selections by Schoenberg, Varese, later William Schuman or even Bernard Herrmann's soundtrack to "Vertigo".

I can't imagine anyone becoming stressed out by Tchaikovsky's "Serenade for Strings", unless it was Herbert von Karajan's blasty rendition on Deutsch Gramophone (which sounds LOUD even when the volume is down).

I'm trying to find a decent chamber orchestra performance of this piece on cd or vinyl.


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I'm going to have to do this in a number of brief posts rather than one long one. Please bear with me.

FIRST - I also hold you in very high regard, ex10. I have had to give a large amount of thought to Momentus, and exactly what happened there. You may not have recognized the physical, emotional and spiritual abuse that took place during our Momentus training session, but it was there, as you may come to realize.

oldiesman asked me to share what a typical day at Momentus was like. I can't really do that, because what happened on different days was planned to achieve different results. In her book, "Cults In Our Midst", Margaret Thaler Singer describes a variety of "cults" that are operative in our culture (not just religious). One type is called LGATs or "Large Group Awareness Trainings". This is the group that Momentus comes out of.

On pages 193-195 of "Cults In Our Midst" Singer presents the following structure,

Day one is usually devoted to demonstrating the leader's absolute authority. The leader... immediately takes control of the setting with a demeanor that suggests he is a powerful, in-charge person and no one is to challenge what he says... He remains totally in charge, acts knowledgable, and is practiced in verbal skills, so that he never loses an encounter. Anyone who challenges the trainer will be humiliated and verbally mashed...

Day two focusses on instilling the new philosphy the LGAT is teaching. The well known LGATs claim that you have caused everything that ever happened to you... Trainers use the terms accountable and responsible, but not with their ordinary meaning. Trainers mean that you will... start to make your choices patterned after the way the organization advocates. They create guilt and fear in you that you have caused all the bad things that have happened in your life...

Day three is usually devoted to exercises, often trance-inducing guided imagery, in which attendees are urged to recall all the disappointments of life since early childhood. Exercises about your mother and father, the promises you've broken, and the promises to you that others have broken - all the sad memories of your life up to now are brought forth. By the end of the third day, participants have been opened up psychologically.

Day four is one in which much group sharing occurs, and the leader begins to change from the stern, domineering task master into a seductive, charming, loving daddy or mommy who wants you to buy the next courses. Legal cases have revealed that trainer's promotions and even their very jobs hinge on how many of those in the first course they lure into purchasing the next courses.

Day five is one of lightness; there is dancing after rest room and lunch breaks. Much effort is put into getting you to sign up for the next... course... At the end of the day, a surprise is staged, with friends and family unexpectedly appearing to congratulate the graduate.

That's pretty much the order of things that happened at Momentus, except it was abbreviated to four days instead of five. Some of the things I ommitted from the description because they were examples of what might happen at a "New Age" style LGAT. Momentus adopted instead a "Christian" camoflage and terminology. The trainers at Momentus didn't pressure us to sign up for another course, they exhorted us to recruit new people for the next Momentus.

During the days that were intended to break us down, EVERYTHING was designed to be uncomfortable. The thermostat was either way too high or way too low. Restroom breaks were few, far between and short. And if you weren't back in your seat on time, they reamed you a new a$$-hole. The music was loud and disturbing.

During the time the trainers were transforming from social pit bulls to the most endearing people we might ever hope to meet, the music was light and relaxing.

During the dancing on the last day, the music was stirring and joyous.

Different people may remember the music differently because they are thinking of what was played on different days, but ALL the music was calculated to manipulate our hearts through manipulating our physiology.

More later!



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No time to look back, Yanga.( sorry because I forgot the whole nick) is the 3rd.

No disrespect for Steve,

My Mark.......... you sure seem to think you can read between the lines, but you always fail at it.......

But, if something were to aide someone's life; would you still be right by saying its bad?????

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ex10 informs us that she is going through an intense and rigorous training as part of her job. What's the difference between that sort of thing and Momentus?

On page 99 of "Cults In Our Midst", Margaret Thaler Singer wrote,

Military training and legitimate executive training programs may use the dictates of authority as well as peer pressure to encourage the adoption of new patterns of thought and behavior. They do not seek, however, to accelerate the process by prolonged or intense psychological depletion or by stirring up feelings of dread, guilt and sinfulness. While strenuous, military training is aimed at strengthening performance, whereas cults try to weaken the person. Few if any social institutions claiming First Amendment protection use conditioning techniques as intense, deceptive, or pervasive as those used by many comtemporary cults.

And what is wrong with cults is not just that cults are secret societies. In our culture, there are openly recognized, social secret societies, such as the Masons, in which new members know up front that they will gradually learn the shared rituals of the group even though they do not know everything about the group right away. This is different from cultic groups and others that use thought-reform techniques. In these latter groups, there is deliberate deception about what the group is and what some of the rituals might be, and primarily, there is deception about what the ultimate goal will be for a member, what will ultimately be demanded and expected, and what the damages resulting from some of the practices might be. A secret handshake is not equivalent to mind control.

So, what WAS Momentus' agenda for us "grads"?

To make us better Christians?



Maybe TheEvan will address these questions while I prepare my next post.



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Evan - You wrote, "Actually the point of the life boat exercise was to show people that they don't properly value their own lives. I CAN'T IMAGINE ANYBODY DISAGREEING WITH ME ON THAT." (emphasis added- Steve).

There are MANY people who disagree with you on that, Evan, including myself. Why can't you even IMAGINE anybody finding anything about Momentus to be harmful?

Makes a person think, huh?



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Grizzy, my mistake. I had forgotten about Yanga or however he spells it. Now let's here more from Steve L. as he has more actual incidents to relate regarding Momentous compared to the others here. After the deception of Momentous has been revealed, if people still want to sign up for it then, as far as I am concerned, they are more than welcome to this. Grizzy, are you now a Momentous candidate?

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Steve, what?

I guess the seminars can be different. They very clearly TOLD us what the exercise was about. Namely, showing people when they don't properly value their own lives. IE, people who didn't vote for themselves (which was quite a few) were asked to consider why they didn't value their own life. ie, implying that's not a good thing. I'm telling you in the words they told us.


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