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Groucho and Raf regarding defending VPW, LCM, JAL, et al.


QUOTE(Raf @ Jan 2 2007, 06:57 PM) *

"Flawed human being" is a euphemism designed to detract from the truth that the man was a manipulative predator who deliberately hurt God's people in His name.

I thought this post was worth repeating...

...There's a big difference between those who point Christ out to others...and those who seek recognition for themselves as being self proclaimed "ministers of Christ".

God judges men's hearts but He also expects us to use the bullsh* t meter that he gave us.

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:eusa_clap::eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

you were hungering and thirsting, and God led you to a stolen class taught by a lying plagiarist? because as long as you get "the word" it doesn't matter where it came from? because he had no better option? because he was unaware of where the outfit was heading?

i'm sorry, therebut, but i think that's a deeply flawed position. especially if you think the lord showed it to you. yes, it's only my opinion. but you might think about it.

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I loved what socks, regarding Pat Robertson's latest forecast of doom and gloom, said:

All he really does is announce judgments, from "god", for whatever it is he says is wrong. So he's really more of God's Judgment Announcer of Wrath That May or May Not Happen Pretty Soon or Sometime After That.
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Dr. once said that people will attack him after he was dead!

do you think that was revelation, or the realization that skeletons tend to fall out of the closet when the door is opened?

anyway, forgiveness doesn't require putting the rose-colored glasses back on.


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You're the BOMB ChattyK! It's wild in the streets of Greasarado today!

richncrispy's, in the midst of that hunk o' CES threads, brought a tiny tear to my eye and I tell no lie, when he/she/them said:

I hold out hope that adults may begin acting like adults and respecting other adults and their boundaries.

That people will stop acting like mogs and just want to be regular christians hanging out with the other regular christians and actually loving people.

People will talk less and listen more. When they do speak they will speak more about the life and words of Jesus and less about theology.

People will spend more time volunteering at food banks and Habitat for Humanity and Literacy Programs.

People will spend more time having fun, going out dancing or throwing their own dance, etc.

People will try to remember what it was like being a little child in their Abba's arms.

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Who you are influences how you process what you know.

For those who chant the "Wierwille's character doesn't affect the TRUTH he taught" mantra:

Every single person who made it though PFAL and stayed active for even a short period of time did so because they believed that Wierwille was telling the truth in PFAL. Why did we believe this? Because we did our own research? Usually because we took Wierwille's word for most of what he said, and the things that we "investigated" on our own we did using assumptions and premises that we accepted from Wierwille. No, we believed what was in PFAL largely because we decided that Wierwille was trustworthy and that he knew what he was talking about. He convinced us of it himself.

If we had known from the start that the man was a liar, if we knew that he sexually abused young women, if we knew all the negative "character flaws", would we have even listened to anything he said?

It's only in retrospect, in hindsight, that we try to justify believing what we were taught.

This is not to say that everything that he taught was wrong. But teachings such as "every woman in the kingdom belongs to the King", the whole concept of the MOG, unquestioned following of leadership were open doors for abuse. The framework of his interpretation necessarily being the only correct one fed into his apparent need for adulation.

It doesn't matter how full your head is with knowledge, with facts, with TRUTH, if your heart is rotten, than what does it matter?

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Unfortunately few ever remember their early biblical teachings, one of which is: "Man's basic spiritual problem is the accuracy and integrity of God's Word." People are more intent rather they are far more content with putting their microscope on another man's deeds and also on his biblical workmanship rather than turning their microscope on the Word of God for themselves. Why? Because the integrity and accuracy of God's Word is not their primary concern (being man's basic spiritual problem as it is) but rather the writings, the works, and the deeds of another man are their primary concerns.

Might I suggest, What the Hey, that VPW got this idea kinda scewed? Man's basic spiritual problem is sin, not the "accuracy and intergrity of God's Word."

The statement VPW made in PFAL that you quoted, was a "hook," one of many that baited people into believing that VPW had all the answers.

The whole Bible is about the problem of sin, and God's answer to it, Jesus Christ. In John 8:31 and 32, Jesus is teaching his disciples and makes the statement that "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my diciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

Well, hello, what will be free from? Keep reading and Jesus explains we will be free the bondage of sin.

I Cor. 15: 33 and 34 come to mind: "Do not be mislead. Bad company corrupts good character. Come back to your senses as you ought and stop sinning: for their are some who are ignorant of God-I say this to your shame."

Unfortunately, VPW never got to the point where he quit sinning. His corrupt character stayed corrupted, which is obvious by the "fruit" he left behind. And his corrupt character, influenced everything about his "ministry," including his teaching, example, etc.

These things are really just a no-brainer for anybody who still has one left after escaping the cult. VPW and company's sin and corrupt character led many, many people astray. Thank the Lord, that as his sin is being exposed, we can "know the truth," and be set free from the bondage of sin.

Amen. End of sermon for today.

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Socks, on the "CFF: Should I get involved?" thread:

Nothing - no thing is more powerful than two hands held together that won't let go. Eternity infuses itself into our souls when we have that one little thing, but it can be so hard to find anyone who will get our dirt on them long enough to do that. When someone does, you never forget. Doesn't matter where they're from then. Never.

I can't even tell you how much this touched me.

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From Edi (our old pal from Waydale days!) on the "Why did you go into the early Corps?" thread:

I thought if people went in to get out of it what God wanted them to learn they would do fine and the ones who were in out of ego wouldn't.

Amen to that!

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SirGuessalot said:

i recall how in PFAL, we were all groomed to respond to inquiry and skepticism as a trick and trap to be avoided which then seems to support an unwillingness to shine light into our own ignorances let alone find value in discovering what it is we specifically avoid looking at (i.e. taboos) and why it might be

No doubt. In our Way Days, PFAL defined the playing field. We were 'out of bounds' if we dared to stray outside of those definitions. Now, the basis for this 'fear' had a couple of legs, IMO. One was the teaching of the Eve account in Gen. & how her downfall started with the considering of words (yes, the mere consideration) was the point where the whole thing started to unravel. Eve was deceived simply because she considered discussing something that was out of bounds as per God's command. At least this was my sense of how it was taught. This is a VERY potent admonishment to 'stay in bounds'.

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  • 2 weeks later...

ex, on the thread "Reasons Why People Join or Leave TWI"

you join because you love god

you leave because you love god

oh i'm just being mushy moo

you join because you want to separate truth from error

you leave because you want to separte truth from error

you join because there's a real man of god in the world today

you leave because he's a scumbucket

can i say that on here paw ?

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  • 3 months later...

Posted by Mr. Hammeroni:

(our *resident rodent* ;) --- with an insight that can't be beat!!),

on the reincarnation thread ---

A lot of what we supposedly "know" evolved from fiction.

What is a hypothesis? Is it true, or is it somebody's guess?

It just seems to me, without an exit ramp,

a person may find themselves not where they really want to be.

:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

Edited by dmiller
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  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...

Doojable posted this great gem in A few big things I learned taking PFAL :

... TWI (the lies, hypocrisy, and degrading of God's people) was the shifting sand on which the buildings(the love of God and Jesus, the attitude of service and valuing each person as a child of God) of these servants stood. When the sand shifted the foundation strained to hold it together, until it all crumbled.
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On the LONG thread about the PFAL class July and August 2007 "A few big things I learned taking PFAL"

Oldies said,

Continued hatred of VP is like that, like smashing a dead cockroach in linoleum.
Raf responds,
While others try to rehabilitate the cockroach's legacy.

It was a gem

Edited by Dot Matrix
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From the same thread re: Christian Family and Sex and a man who got "healed" during the class.

By Raf (the weatherman :biglaugh: : )

Some basic rules of etiquette:

If you are a man, do not, in a public setting, take a woman's hand and put it on your pants in a bid to call attention to your erection. Ever.

If you are a man experiencing an erection in public, keep it to yourself. No one needs to know how "blessed" you are. If you are at a swing club, cool. If you are at CHURCH, remain seated. And if it lasts more than four hours, congratulations.

If you are a man, particularly a Bible instructor, the showing of pornography, particularly involving bestiality, is ALWAYS wrong. ALWAYS. At ALL times.

Call me a legalist.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's a wise gem from Abigail:

"waybrain" is simply another form of doctrinal belief. It is a religion. Not much different from any other religion. Some of it is good, some of it is bad. Ultimately, it is what an individual does with it that determins how much is good and how much is bad.
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