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Linda Z

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Some people may have insights and understanding that come to them in any form - learning, insight, actual events. Others, none.

Insisting that one person work to duplicate what another's learned and experienced will prove futile in this area. Geroge, saying to you, "try again, try harder, try it like this", is fine, to a degree if your interests are the ones being served. And everyone means well, right? Even the most boring repetitive rehetoric. :) But it may very well be a waste of time because putting you on my timetable and to my expectations is useless. So pestering other people is stupid.

My thought is - there's nothing "wrong" with how an atheist believes or feels. They may be wrong by what I believe to be true, limited in understanding but the truth is I am too in my own ways. Everyone is. It's completely normal that some won't come to the same place as I am.

When a Christian insists that another believe and do as they do and how they do - that's wrong. Everyone's place is in development and it's their own. Likewise humanity as a whole, within it's own collection, "body". It's everyone's job to bring what they have and contribute it, honestly and truthfully.

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EyesWideOpen on "Corps Indoctrination: Twisted":

Most of us entered into the Way Corps looking to increase our fellowship with God. We wanted to be ministers, teachers and pastors to the rest of the family of God. We didn't go in, as some people seem to think to become face melting salesmen for VP with a side job of washing windows.

Pithy and succinct!


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  • 2 weeks later...

Thank you for posting what you did. I appreciate your perspective. I think it gives some fresh thought to the subject.

But I do need to comment on a couple of your statements.

QUOTE(nicoleq23 @ Oct 24 2007, 02:52 AM) *

Everyone thinks they were so blinded. That all of the brainwash-type, villainous mechanisms is an excuse for why they remained in the ministry.

Yes, I think putting my innocence, faith and trust in a liar = me being blinded. Does my saying so here mean I haven't recognized my own willingness to put my faith so blindly in someone else? My own responsibility? I think this argument, which comes up alot here on the boards, is comparing apples to oranges. They are two different issues.

QUOTE(nicoleq23 @ Oct 24 2007, 02:52 AM) *

Honestly, I think that people do things for good reasons.

I think most of us STARTED for good reasons. But I think most of us remained with twi (even through the 90's) because of a combination of our own good intentions and of the manipulative, fear-inducing tactics that had become standard in twi. They wove our own good intentions into their legalism, and used it against us. To walk away from their legalism (we were told) meant we also had to walk away from our good intentions (and God's blessings). Was that warped version of our original good intentions a "good reason"? Well, I'm sure we all thought so at the time, or we wouldn't have stayed.

But what you read here at Greasespot are the thoughts of people who are looking back and realizing that all those "good reasons" we held so dear were, in reality, folly. Folly because they weren't based on truth. And admitting that to yourself and 'aloud' here on the boards is a big deal. You first have to admit a wrong was committed before you can recognize your own part in it. I think it is incorrect to condemn the majority of thoughts and posts here as negative, self-serving, or bashing. And I think there are plenty of threads and posts here that commend the "good folks" we all knew. If twi had been only evil all the time, none of us would have joined. It was the hope that the good folks would prevail that kept so many of us hanging in there for so long.

QUOTE(nicoleq23 @ Oct 24 2007, 02:52 AM) *

But there are good people still working in its ranks. And they are working for the right reasons even if they realize the weaknesses. ...who are believing for the right reasons. And by bashing on everything, I feel that we are demeaning those people. Nothing is perfect. And in a way, I feel like I am demeaning my own family.

I do think there are still people involved in twi who fit into this category. But I also think that they are few and far between. It is hard for me to see how anyone who was in twi through the Martindale lawsuits falls into this category. There were plenty of things that were questionable about how the ministry has handled all of it, even if you do believe that it was just a one-time consensual affair, as we were told. I don't personally know of a single person who went through those times who didn't have questions; serious question; lots of them. And those questions did NOT get answered. And they CHOSE to let it go and pretend it doesn't matter. I don't see how you can do that and still be "believing for the right reasons." Because at that point a choice is made not to stand up to the wrong, but to ignore it and go on, hoping it will resolve itself. At that point, in my book, you are no longer a victim, but at best an enabler, and at worst a victimizer.

That being said, I don't think the posts here are meant to bash those people. I think they are meant to bash twi, the organizational structure; the leadership. I think most of us here feel badly for those who are still in, realizing that they are being used and decieved the way we were; trapped in a mix of hopeful good intentions and controlling legalism. What we express here is an anger that it happened to us, and an anger that it still continues to happen to others today. It is these very people who twi relies on to front their evil. It is how twi perpetuates itself. And that is frustrating.

So, I appreciate your sentiment towards your own innocent upbringing and your parents good intentions and good deeds. I'm glad you've come to those realizations. I think you need to see both sides of the thing. But, at the same time, I don't think you should point fingers at the rest of us who still have things to work out and things that we think need to be said before we can say, "I'm just over it."

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I once asked an evanglical pastors wife, ( who is a real nice woman) the following question when she asked me if I was attending church. Who is more justified the one who attends one time and does everything he heard or the person who goes 100 times and does not of it? She smiled and winced a tad, and didnt really answer. I think she was expecting me to say that I was doing it (whatever her response would have been); anyway, I think she got the point.

peace, :)

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A beauty from T-Bone:

While working the kitchen in-residence I grabbed a BIG soup spoon or something piggish like that and shoved a huge scoop of peanut butter in my mouth – and it was that sort of dry, clumpy, healthy peanut butter brand like Deaf Smith…anyway, nearly choked – couldn't breathe!!!!!!! Thought I was gonna die…....not a bad way to go though - the last taste of this life...I could just see my tombstone:

Awaiting the Return…

Oh Deaf, where is thy sting

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I try to imagine what was going through his and other offshoot leaders' minds when they decided to start their own "ministries". Did they really believe, in their "heart of hearts" that God called them to start these things or are they just afraid of work? IMNSHO, I think it's about easy money.

They took "work smarter, not harder" to mean it's ok to for them to be "smarter" by taking the cash of the "harder" workers. Just what it is about honest work that repulses these guys? If anyone should have to go out and with the sweat of his brow work for a living, it should be them. No tithes or "love offerings", no mulitlevel marketing, no smarmy sales positions, no get rich quick schemes...just honest work.

In my opinion, Craig has a better shot at true repentance than the Roods, Waynes, Earls, Johns, Vinces, Rosies, and the numerous others living off the backs of followers. I believe he's more likely, while standing there on isle 9 of that home improvement store, to have his "oh God what have I done...please forgive me" moment than the others. They're too busy counting the spoils, convincing themselves they deserve it.

Money for nothing (not to mention ego-stroking glory) and the chicks for free...

I dunno why... but I just loved this post! The second to last paragraph about Craig gave me such a funny mental image that I started laughing at work. XP

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One thing marriage has taught and life words are powerful.

What is in you heart will come out.

Print is not easy to erase. If you say(write) it bam there it is.

I guess thats part of repent. Change wow there is some work involved.

I would think Jesus Christ did all the work and we are saved by grace BUT

just by saying a few words doesn't really cut it. We have the work of changing.

Not by our works for the salvation part but works as far as changing our sinful ways.

So very true!

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Soon after leaving TWI I remember reading in some booklet on cults what the church could learn from cult followers – commitment. Well, maybe so but at the time I read that I was so angry and cynical over letting some counterfeit church gobble up 12 years of my life as I blindly bought into their priorities and agenda. I would revise that booklet to add

commitment without wisdom is foolish.

(And not just commitment to TWI, a church, or any other organization either but any commitment.)

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Theology is what sepperates while spirituality unites us all.

Knowledge puffeth up, charity edifieth.

Doctrine becomes an idol, that keeps us in a little box, that is either outgrown in time, or becomes part of our constitution that we will never allow outselves to outgrow.

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If I would have said it better it would have been clear that I've said too much rough stuff and not near enough gentle stuff.

It works best for me to not justify my mistakes, especially by quoting bible.

For me that seems to be jumping from being a jerk, to being dangerous.

We can ALL learn from this gem here. Makes sense to me. :)

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Jeff Sjo may be new here, but he's making up for lost time on the Gems list....

I think the worst thing that I can think of would be to end up like one of Job's miserable comforters. All full of knowledge, but only able to end up accusing the one who's been hurt.

I don't say this every day....I am impressed.

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  • 4 weeks later...

This is very insightful - good for anyone who visits Grease Spot to think about! Great gems from Goey on the Everything all wrong? thread in Doctrinal:

Hi Jafin,

Welcome to Greasespot,

What a good post.

The questions you asked are some of the main ones that many of us have asked ourselves (and others)

after once being followers of the teachings of TWI.

No one can really answer these questions for you and I am not suggesting that anyone that has responded

is trying to do that. What I mean is, you will have to take the time and expend the effort to seek the answers

for yourself.

As you can see by the responses so far, many of us have found quite a bit that was taught in PFAL/TWI to be

doctrinally wrong (to one degree or another). But we don't all agree. If we did, it would be kind of scary IMO.

The process of sorting through all of the questions and getting some answers is not instantanious and can be

very challenging. It can be very uncomfortable to question a belief system that has been ingrained into us for a

good part of our lives. It can be even more uncomfortable to realize/admit that some, if not lots of it, was

wrong or even harmful ....and to change. ( like the man with the bicycle with crooked handle bars)

Probably all of the things you mentioned have been discused here "Doctrinal" in detail. I suggest you read these archived

discussions, not necessarily to get the answers, but more to get an idea of how folks went about getting the answers

for themselves....

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  • 1 month later...

I'll nominate Watered Garden's apt description..

This stuff was used to build the myth of the specialness, the uniqueness of the MOGFODAT. It's kinda like gilding a turd with melted gold. It may look special, but it's still .... and it still stinks.

I'm still laughing..


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