Gifts

[satori001]

I have occasionally referred to TWI's guaranteed keys to believing as "magic." It's the "red drapes" nonsense Wierwille taught, the "fear..., in the life..., of that woman..., what kilt dat little bitty boy..."

Talk about fear mongering, Wierwille must have set the new gold standard for it with that monstrous superstition. That Hummer didn't flatten Fluffy, YOU did, with your negative believing. Every time you'd see Fluffy playing in the road you'd say, "I'm so afraid for Fluffy."

Enough of Wierwille's crap. Your fear didn't flatten Fluffy. Michelins did.

But we've also seen things that became "proofs" to us that an unseen world, and an unseen grace perhaps, was out there somewhere, and occasionally (seeing through a glass darkly) we would stumble into it.

Occasionally people were "healed." No other word for it. Occasionally the miraculous did occur, and there is no other (reasonable) explanation for it.

My dad, an atheist, in his eighties drove hundreds of miles on interstates and back roads until he stopped, finally, at a little motel in Alabama. He had stopped at two other hotels first, one being unsatisfactory, the other being too expensive (he can afford it, but couldn't see paying so much).

Hours later, his heart nearly stopped, due to complications of arrhythmia (sp), fatigue, and neglecting to take his medication while on the road. He experienced it as a loss of balance, dizziness, and some kind of gentle pressure on his chest, as if compelled to exhale. Forcing himself to move around temporarily got his heart beating again, but he knew he had to see a doctor.

Directly across the street from the hotel was a modern hospital. He walked over, checked in, went into surgery, and emerged a couple of days later with a pace-maker. Had the hospital not been there, it would have turned out differently.

I mentioned to him on the phone that the coincidence of being so close to a hospital was "miraculous." The hotel manager, a black minister from a local church, was extremely attentive to my father and his wife. This too had the glimmer of the miraculous. My father's wife has always feared blacks (being of a certain generation and mindset), and my father has always distrusted clergy.

Before leaving the hotel, they made a generous contribution to the minister's church, because he would not accept any gift or "tip" for himself. They left with a gift for which there was no price, and nothing to repay, and they could not help but show gratitude with some small token. If you knew my father, making a gift to a church might seem more miraculous than having a hospital across the street.

I see this strange confluence of circumstances and events as only miraculous, simply miraculous, and without any need for further explanation. To explain it would be to miss it, to lose it.

Regardless of TWI's lessons in magical-believing-McSorcery, good things, and bad things, do happen - and both of which may, occasionally, suggest an order to the universe set by agents unseen and unknown, that override the apparent randomness of events, and I think of those things not as results, but as gifts.

Call me sentimental.

Edited February 17, 2005 by satori001

[dmiller]

quote:

Regardless of TWI's lessons in magical-believing-McSorcery, good things, and bad things, do happen - both of which suggest an order to the universe set by agents unseen and unknown, that override the apparent randomness of events, and I think of those things not as results, but as gifts.

Yes. And those gifts are given to those who can pass them on. :)-->

[excathedra]

wow that is so wonderful

[waterbuffalo]

Gosh! How wonderful. His life from here on is a gift, ya think?

[Steve Lortz]

satori - I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post. IMO most of the real miracles that happen don't mean anything except to the people who received them.

The problem with TWI was, how can you mass market the miraculous without putting it in a box and slapping a label on it?

Love,

Steve

[JustThinking]

Steve,

quote:

The problem with TWI was, how can you mass market the miraculous without putting it in a box and slapping a label on it?

I think the bigger problem for them is how to explain them happening to people they claim God despises. Satori's dad was not just a non-AC Grad but an atheist! Also, TWI likes to see the world as "Us vs. them." Kind of hard to claim an exclusive on miracles.

JT

[MATILDA]

My dear Satoreamus,

That your Dad and his wife were recepients of generous and timely care is neat in and of itself, but that they(and you) got the benefit of him enjoying another season of life is especially sweet...to be savoured.

In spite of whatever our spiritual hangups, virtues, or growth-charts indicate, I think that God just wanted to bless you...and a lot of other people got the good vibes and satisfaction of a job well done :)-->

Viva la Dad!

Hooray God!

Go you White Sox!

[Ham]

Mass marketing the miraculous.. now there's an original idea.. ha.

They have LOTS of competition, and most of the competition has more experience and resources. So, if you want to succeed in this cult business, what do you do? Label all other sellers of the miraculous as possessed, mislead and worse. Scream about those who do not believe you, beating your breast while spewing curses.

Reminds me of a National Geographic program I saw once. Two witchdoctors trying to outdo each other- the poor village people had to somehow be convinced that their resident witchdoctor had more power than the other. From what I remember, the thing that was most convincing was how much bile they could spit..

[Belle]

TWI markets miracles and promises them, but can't and doesn't deliver. They don't have any great stories of "deliverance" in recent years. Even the 9/11 stories they tell are barely related to TWI and there are so many more stories that you can't say it was just TWI people or the others were saved because of TWIts.

Real miracles, like you said Satori, are very private and aren't advertised or "sold" by those involved. They are spontaneous, genuine and most likely NOT related to TWI in any way form or fashion. That ....es TWIts off and they attribute those things to the devil instead of realizing that just maybe they are the ones not getting anything because of their black hearts.

I don't know what to call it...God, karma, all of us being connected.... *shrug* but I do believe in the kinds of "gifts" your dad and his wife experienced. It gives me goosebumps. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Now the WAYGB are racking their brains trying to come up with something remotely as spectacular and all they can think of is the really good parking spot they got at the liquor store last night.

[Ham]

Ignore this if you are squeamish.. heh heh.

They really should take a lesson from the witchdoctors, if they have not already have done so.

Seems these guys would ingest latex too- lots of it- then projectile vomit white stuff almost upon command. This was obvious proof that they could "dance with devils".

Come to think of it, Loy already tried that..

[Ham]

Sorry Satori, not trying to kill your thread.. I just find the resorts people go to to put God or miracles in their particular box astounding.

[George Aar]

I hate to be the wet blanket, but hey, somebody's got to do it.

Like the person who won the Lotto twice in the same year, "miraculous" seems pretty dependant on one's perspective.

Personally I've seen enough of the times where there wasn't any magical intervention by the unseen forces of holiness to sort of doubt the existence of any.

But if there really is a God, rather than being some wonderful, all-loving entity, anxiously anticipating the next opportunity to perform the miraculous, I'd tend to think that He's one capricious mutha f$%^er, with a downright warped sense of humor as well.

But then, I would...

[excathedra]

party pooper ;)-->

but i know what you mean. when my mom's husband had a stroke, things didn't work out very miraculously

why the diff ?

[satori001]

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Hammeroni:

Sorry Satori, not trying to kill your thread.. I just find the resorts people go to to put God or miracles in their particular box astounding.

Well that's my point, Hammeroni. It's effortless here, as it should be.

I am not asking you to accept the "miraculous" nature of any coincidence in my life.

What I AM saying is, TWI co-opted the "spiritual" realm, and everything they could then include with it (like "finances" - verrry spiritual stuff). They managed to re-define any sort of miraculous intervention (which most of us have probably seen in our own lives) as God, acting according to the revealed Word and Wier-Will of God, who does what He's told, as long as He is the one telling Himself.

TWI's version of the bible is an iron-clad contract with the divine. Unfortunately, it's unenforcible, as Wierwille discovered when he died of cancer. Promises, promises.

I don't know if God just wanted to bless me, as Matilda says (and thank you, Matilda). It would be nice to think so, but I just don't know.

What I DO know, is that the odds against this little coincidence are fairly good, yet it happened. I don't define it. To me, that is the meaning of miraculous.

[oldiesman]

It all depends upon your point of view.

Where twi got it wrong was when they taught that everything that happens to you both pos. and neg. is because of your believing.

We learn from experience that things happen both good and bad whether or not one believes, so that's one teaching in PFAL I'd scrap.

But it says someplace in the bible that all good things are from above.

Now that's something I can take to the bank.

Connecting all the good things in your life to God, and being thankful to God for them, is a great way to live in peace and harmony. :)-->

[Ham]

That's a pretty good point. When things are going right, it's "see, He does what we tell Him to do"- but when things go wrong, I pity the poor guy that's maybe just having a bad day. Doesn't work? You MUST be evil, or slothful, or "spiritually asleep" or... on and on.

I personally did not know the Wierwille died from cancer until a few YEARS after I was out. Even then, people kind of got huffy saying "that's pretty morbid, why would you want to know that?" "well, you say it's a devil spirit. How could that be?" I guess they're still trying to figure it out. In the meantime, they leave it where it is, swept under the rug. I guess you have to do something to be able to live with yourself..

[satori001]

quote:

Originally posted by George Aar:

I hate to be the wet blanket, but hey, somebody's got to do it.

Like the person who won the Lotto twice in the same year, "miraculous" seems pretty dependant on one's perspective.

Personally I've seen enough of the times where there wasn't any magical intervention by the unseen forces of holiness to sort of doubt the existence of any.

But if there really is a God, rather than being some wonderful, all-loving entity, anxiously anticipating the next opportunity to perform the miraculous, I'd tend to think that He's one capricious mutha f$%^er, with a downright warped sense of humor as well.

But then, I would...

George, I looked wet blanket up in the dictionary. Recent picture? :)-->

Perspective, yes. It's all persective. What else do we have when it comes right down to it?

If you were God, George, all other things being as they are, and you "ran things this way," would you be

a) some wonderful, all-loving entity, anxiously anticipating the next opportunity to perform the miraculous; or

b) one capricious mutha f$%^er, with a downright warped sense of humor as well?

I guess it would depend upon who you asked. Right?

Can we imagine a miraculous universe without imposing our image of God upon its design?

I can. I do not imagine a universe without God, but one without my understanding or direct knowledge of God, therefore without rhyme, reason, or explanation from anyone else's perspective, God's included, but my own. It simply is, as it is.

Good or evil are my points of view, that's all.

Would any presupposed God be conscious of human comings and goings in the same way we are? I don't see how.

Remember, I said good and bad things happen. The miraculous is not limited to the things of which we approve, or the things which we desire. Wonderful, or terrible, or non-descript and neutral (to our view), miraculous is miraculous.

[Yanagisawa]

SATORI

I'm sure a well read and well spoken guy like you has some David Hume on the shelf.

Your comments and the responses seem to bring up a subject that he wrote about extensively.

[satori001]

Yanagisawa, shall we exhume Hume? Sorry, just my humor.

[George Aar]

Satori,

I guess I don't understand why you want to impose "miraculous" on what may well be simply "random".

In any category you'd care to name there are going to be items at the extreme ends, those that are close to extreme, and a whole bunch in the middle. To pick out the extremes and declare them "miraculous" to me seems simply myopic.

Why invoke the paranormal when the normal will do just fine?

[MATILDA]

Normally, I might agree with the para ya on some extremely picky points...but I impose that might appear miraculous to some random person stuck in the middle looking for some understanding in any fine category.

...but that's just myopicion.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

i reqlly do believe in mackrels woops miracles!! but i think for the most part they are a private thing.

not like the time my ex wife minestered to a blind person at twfamily camp in the poconos back in the eighties.

he was healed and had his vision restored! did i mentoined this happened in the dark of the night?

the next morning the poor guy had bandages on his face

he had walked into a tree!!

but i really do believe in miricels! the have happened to me

but twi just pushed the phony ones too much

[satori001]

George, I fear we may need to define "miracle." Mine is somewhat different from Wierwille's.

Wha? Myopara ya? Moi? Bourgois Georgeois?

[laleo]

Glad to hear your father got the help he needed when he needed it. Every now and then the universe does prove itself to be as generous and kind as I hope it might be. Until, of course, someone (George) comes along and nullifies the whole experience.

Actually, your father sounds a lot like my father-in-law, at least as far as the hotel room is concerned. He's another one who would be more inclined to drive around until he has a heart attack rather than pay the extra twenty dollars to get a good night's sleep, although since your father ended up being where he needed to be, it worked to his benefit.

Good story. I enjoyed reading it.

[Oakspear]

In TWI every so-called miracle was used to prove how it really was the truth we were being taught. Snow on the gas pumps and on the Tulsa airport! Mr. "I-don't-believe-in-your-Jesus" in India! Howard Allen and the beet juice cure! But after a while people became so desparate for miracles that every positive thing that happened was credited to divine intervention. My cold went away in SIX days instead of SEVEN...it had to be God. I was really believing.

When something good happens to me that seems to my finite intelligence to be against the odds, I'm just thankful. If someone wants to say that it happened because they prayed for it: well thanks for praying for me! If someone else says praise God for his mercy! Okay by me! Whether it's prayer, or reiki, or magic, or capricious gods, or willing myself into a low-probability quantum reality, it doesn't matter...because I have had something good happen to me!

Factoring in the negative may be more realistic, but it's also more depressing :D-->