To use TWI's own words....the value of the counterfit is increased by the likeness to the original.
I think TWI is the counterfit. Just enough truth and just enough "good hearted" people to come off as something genuine.
To use another TWIt logic: Good vs Best
TWI used to say some decision was "good" but deciding THIS (TWIts way) was "best".
TWI was goodNOT that I think it was good but someplace else would have been best.
Maybe some people got some of what they needed when they needed it from people involved in TWI (people - NOT TWI itself) but maybe God would have had something better for them if they hadn't gotten involved with TWI.
Personally? It wasn't worth it. Not one tittle of it.
Rascal your question opens up other broader questions, that is, why does God allow evil in the world, and should the world never have been created and made, knowing all the evil has occurred.
But be that as it may, you think that in twi's case, it would have been better that it never happened because of the evil. Seems you don't see that by saying that, you're also negating all the blessings God wrought in people's lives.
God did that. God.
It seems to bug you to no end that there are folks who got blessed in twi.
But it seems all you seem to be concerned about is how the devil worked in twi, and you magnify those things above everything else, and when someone wants to communicate something positive God did in their lives, you take extreme offense at that and wonder why their experiences aren't supplanted by the evil experiences of others.
It's almost like you're giving the devil the victory and forgetting about everything God did, when all you need to do is simply let each person communicate their own experiences.
If you are having a hard time with this issue, just look at the Roman Catholic church and all the evil it has been responsible for thru the ages. Yet, good things have happened as well. If you are correct, then I suppose the RC church never should have happened as well.
So best I can say is I'm glad the good happened and I'm not glad that the evil happened. This is true for any church, be it RC, JW, or TWI.
OM, you're only giving reasons for not having religion. If I have to take the evil with the good, I'll pass and stick with what I have (and save a ton of money).
I'll lay off your evil and omniscience statement before the thread completely derails.
I don`t know oldies, it sounds like what you are saying is that what others suffered is somehow acceptable ....that somehow it was ok with God because some good came to some people out of an individual group.
My question is....could it (or any group) really be *good* or *Godly* if it was destroying people simultaniously while you were enjoying your percieved benefits?
Did God really want us there in harms way?
Why WHY would God lead some people to twi (or any group) to be blessed and the same God lead some people there to have their lives destroyed?
Did God only lead some of us there? Who led the rest of us who were used and hurt?
Did Satan lead us there to decieve, to steal and to destroy?
just look at the Roman Catholic church and all the evil it has been responsible for thru the ages. Yet, good things have happened as well. If you are correct, then I suppose the RC church never should have happened as well.
Yes. What would life be like without the dark ages. All those hundreds of years when the RC churched ruled. All those people tortured and executed for not putting up with their ****. I'm sure thankful that they made up for it by giving some family a meal when they were hungry.
Now what are they going to do to make up for all those altar boys they molested? Hmm...
OM. Do you know what a hypocrite is? Or do you believe that just because someone gives off the pretense of doing good and someone buys into it, then we must take the evil with it?
If I have a dog that I really like, always been good to me, jumps up and down when I walk in the door, but then one day bites off my daughter's finger. What do you think I'm going to do with that dog? Say well, he does have a lot of good qualities. I guess I have to take the good with the bad. NOT! That dog's going down immediatly. He will not be remembered fondly either.
Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi?
Knowing what others endured by the hands of twi. twi was not worth SPIT.
Were the benefits that we recieved from pfal valuable enough to make the suffering that was endured by some of us an acceptable price to pay? (QUOTE]
If you mean "we" as a whole? twi is not worth spit.
Since I knew zilch about God and learned "some truths" about him through twi. That is the only part that was worth it. God not twi. I only learned how to apply it after I left twi.
Funny thing: You throw out the hate that is a twi doctrin and you may see some promises from God and his Word work. I have.
Are we really sure that twi was even of Godly origins with so much devistation wrought?
Who knows what was in the minds of the top leadership from way back when till now? I do know most was not in love but of greed.
If we lable twi and vp as *good* on the basis that we were introduced to scripture....is twi or vp really any better than Jim Jones ...David Koresch ...Sun young moon (sp) or any other religious nut who utilizes scripture to co opt people in God`s name for the sating of their own lusts????
Hitler built the Autobond. Did that make him good?
Can we really even trust anything that we learned from vpw as *good* when we know that while he was supposedly *blessing us with the word* behind the scenes, he routinely was seducing and destroying other members of the body?
Yes I leaned good things while at twi. I had my own mind and can read and think for myself. As for the last part of the paragraph. You can lump the whole twi big wigs in with Hitler.
Was vp once a *good man who went bad* and worthey of our pity and forgivness, or rather a *wolf in sheeps clothing seeking whom he may devour* worthey only of our deepest disgust?
From what I have read here vp was a cheating arse before twi was started. lcm just a cold hearted bastard who could care less who he hurt. I just lump all the leaders in twi into demonic people.
Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi?
Rascal,
An interesting question. My answer is, wholeheartedly, "YES!"
Why? Because I was "in" in the late 70's & early 80's. I saw people who were truely loving and Godly, regardless of the garbage coming out of HQ. I learned some very important things that helped me not only then, when I was a troubled teen, but later, when life got REALLY tough and I would have buckled otherwise. I doubt I could have survived some of the things I've had to deal with had it not been for some of the keys, principles, and beliefs that I held as a direct result of TWI teachings.
Does that mean it didn't hurt when I found out TWI was a crock? Oh, God, did it ever hurt! I felt absolutely devastated. I felt like everything I'd ever learned was now subject to question. I felt betrayed by the very people I should have been able to trust, my spiritual leaders.
The fact of the matter is, they DID teach us that the only thing you could really trust is God, not people. I do remember that. It's helped me understand why some of them could do so much harm.
I've struggled a great deal trying to understand how it could have seemed so beautiful and great in the beginning and end up so bad and I have to say part of it is my fault. I WANTED to believe they were the best thing since sliced bread. I wanted to believe they were perfect and Godly. I wanted to believe they were infallible. I shouldn't have been so naive.
In my defense, I do have to say I tried to go back and re-up with TWI after the 'Fog years' and after LCM took over. As much as I thought he was the greatest, funniest teacher when I was in my early 20's and he was a Corps Coord, I thought he was a jerk when I came back in my 30's married and with kids. At least THEN I wasn't so naive and blinded by them!
It would have been nice to have lived life with the 'fairy tale' of TWI's perfectness intact. To think all the teachings were 'right on' and to think that all the early day teachers were Godly would have been very easy.
But no, it had to get hard. I had to get the rose colored glasses knocked off my face. I had to see reality and boy, was it some work to sort through everything and come to peace with it all.
In spite of the pain, in spite of the disillusionment, in spite of the heartbreak, I am very thankful they were there way back when I was a floundering teen who needed direction and needed love. There were so many people there (mostly the 'leaves' if I remember correctly) who had a wonderful, genuine love for God and God's people and they made all the difference.
Thank you to all of you who were "in" for the right reasons: for the love, for the "family," for the learning, for the joy. I learned what true joy within really is.
To hell with all of you who weren't in for the right reasons: for power, for greed, for the ability to manipulate, lie and decieve. Unless you have learned better.
Thanks learned2late, I remeber the love, the wonderfull *leaves* as well.....that is part of the pain and puzzle.....
I genuinely am trying to sort all of this out.....and honestly...not trying to be contentuous....but can you tell me.....going along the lines of what you described....when you were going through those really tough times ....if you had to look your brother or sister in the eye who had been devistated ....could you? Could you say *gee I am sorry for you suffering but I need what I got from this man/ministry*?
This is the question that I have to keep asking myself.....
I mean was what we recieved really worth what our brother or sister lost?
How could God lead some there to learn and some there to be destroyed?
Couldn`t God have cared enough to only lead those who would have benefited from association with twi if he wanted us there at all?
I've met some interesting folk (both good 'n bad), encountered some weird, whacky way-out ideas, and have derived and continue to derive some interesting lessons from the whole experience- though such may not have been the lessons they intended to convey.
In any event, I realize others here went through some unimaginable, hellish experiences with the old gigantic cult, and if I was in their shoes, my opinion would probably be theirs. I wasn't as involved as others were, and I'm glad for that.
I don't value my experience due to any notion that their teachings were so grand and right and fabulous (they weren't) and Wierwille's glass-eye was worthy of being mounted on my fire place mantle. The experience is what it is to me...another episode or part of my life from which to draw lessons concerning both and bad...
Speaking of the wonderfull love of the leaves...I wonder, was the love that we gave, the bible that I struggled to learn and teach, the people that I brought to fellowship....was what they recieved in those early fellowships that we enjoyed worth what was to befall them later?
Did We really do any favors for anyone by being kind and behaving with integrety, teaching scripture if in doing so, we lent an illusion of legitimacy to evil?
Were people disarmed by our love?
Were they seduced into evil by the scripture that we taught?
Were we evil for being the camoflage for the snare?
If we unkowingly do the works of evil, are we evil?
Where did God`s presence start? At what point did it end?
If there is a God ....why didn`t he protect us when we were only trying to do his will?
Did what we learn really bring us closer to God or has the overall experience confused us to the point that we no longer know who or what to trust?
Was it worth it. Speaking for me only, and even considering I'm from the early era of good feelings. HELL NO.
I have had to analize every teaching and sermon since. While I find my beliefs are still close to those of TWI the trust that I should have in ministers/ministries is now lacking. I have lost the ability to trust.
I can honestly say that I wish that I had never taken the class.
The only good thing was the people. the love we had for each other was great. The rest was .....
I guess that this might be an answere to cowgirls other thread...lol even after 6 years of posting on exway forums, I STILL have a million questions:-)
"Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi?"
The 'percieved' benefits that I saw, dont have to be measured up against the viscious treatment that others received do they?
I think that [from where I stood] many were blessed, and helped, and healed. And that was good. And I think that everyone here knows that.
Obviously there were also others who were hurt. Many Many were hurt on the Branch and Limb levels, and the closer you got towards HQ the higher the likelihood of getting hurt was.
In direct comparison, I would like to think that many drifted away when they first saw 'spiritual abuse' and so for the over-whelming majority they never saw and will never associate the good that they did experience, with the terribly viscious treatment that the few did get when they were in the presence of the BOD.
Keeping in mind that hundreds of thousands took PFAL over the decades, but that the ministry's count of faithfull followers never did top 100,000. And how many ever were drawn toward HQ? I dont know how many ever went into the WC, but the total of all years does it top 10,000? I doubt it. So I think that 'MOST' saw good and were blessed, but left as soon as they saw there was also bad. Less were drawn to be faithfull followers, but even these quit once the 'badness' became over-whelming. And still fewer were drawn to climb the ladder, and finally were exposed to the 'viscious treatment at the hands of ...".
"Were the benefits that we recieved from pfal valuable enough to make the suffering that was endured by some of us an acceptable price to pay?"
This I suppose would have to be answered by each individual. To this day, what percentage of all PFAL-grads ever heard about the truly bad stuff? Few I think. Bonnie and I only hard about it from GS, and that was after we had been 'out' for 3 years.
"Are we really sure that twi was even of Godly origins with so much devistation wrought?"
I know that I was called to TWI. That may have been only for a short period of time, or not. I tried to redeem the time, and to minister to others, to help others, and to share what I have learned. Obviously not everyone did.
"If we lable twi and vp as *good* on the basis that we were introduced to scripture....is twi or vp really any better than Jim Jones ...David Koresch ...Sun young moon (sp) or any other religious nut who utilizes scripture to co opt people in God`s name for the sating of their own lusts????"
I was introduced to the evils that religion does, when I was a child in the Baptist church in my hometown [Ceres California]. I dont think that anything on earth is 100% godly. It all has some portion of badness in it. I dont think you can easily point out any religion, or church, or ... that is truly 100% good. We are mankind after all [Oh wretched man that I am ...].
Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi?
The benefits I received from twi were not perceived -- they were a reality in my life, and still are (to some degree) even today. When I found out about all the atrocities "behind the scenes", that is when I made my exit -- all the while thinking that it was not God who was wrong, but the men that claimed to be speaking for Him.
God NEVER led anyone to the *good* side of twi, or to the bad side. I am not claiming that this *ministry* was God's work, but the Word that was taught drew many thousands to it (myself included), and plain and simply -- docvic screwed it up by indulging in his lusts, and addictions.
Even though I NOW know about the incredible mountain of crap that happened, and the incredible amount of personal hurt suffered by many, I can say -- Yes, it was worth it -- for me then -- but such would not be the case now.
AND --- the only reason I can say so, and still feel justified in answering that way is because I heard the Word taught there, regardless of the men who had a *$h!t-for-brains* lifestyle, ignoring the Word they taught.
And may I also say -- I was one of the lucky ones -- I managed to escape the big hurt, the abuse, the name-calling, etc., but even if I had been one of those defamed, spit on, tossed out, called demon-possesed, on and on -- I would say the same thing for this simple reason:
God and His Word still mean very much to me, and what I know now -- I learned a lot of it there.
Would I go back? No.
Can they offer any offer of reconciliation that will make me think better of that outfit? No.
Did they abuse their positions of *spiritual authority*? Absolutely.
Can I speak well of them today? No.
Are they still shiftless, and conniving? Yes.
Are they looking out for the interests of their *congregation*? No.
Even with all the negative connotations I have about twi, I can still say I do not regret having spent time there for this simple reason:
I do not equate twi and their practices with God and His Word. They taught me some of the Word, and for that I am thankful. It's too bad they had to taste the *forbidden fruit*, and be banished from the garden like Adam and Eve.
When I left twi -- I did not leave God, or His Son Jesus Christ. I left twi, and all they represent. I am grateful for what I learned from them, but also ashamed that I was once part of what I now know them to be.
Was what worth it? What "benefits" did I receive that were "worth" something?
Learned to love God - I learned that from my parents first
Learned that the bible was the Word of God - Learned that from my parents too
Great fellowship - Had this with my parents and siblings and cousins, and some of my friends. Had it with some of the parents of the other Boy Scouts. Have it with some of the people that I work with, and with my lovely fiancee
Learned to "work the Word" - That's not worth a rat's foot IMHO - I learned how to make the bible reflect Wierwille's opinion, there's plenty of folks out there who "work the Wrd" and come up with other points of view
In retrospect, there really wasn't anything that I got out of TWI that I hadn't already gotten before.
Oakspear, if you or anyone were in twi for years and years and now say you've nothing of value from the experience, why should anyone think anything but that you have you yourself to blame for wasting your own time and money?
Maybe after the first six month or year, you would have figured out that maybe this wasn't for you?
Was it worth it.. at this point, I have to say I don't know. Don't know if my opinion will ever change.
Makes me want to answer a question with a question.
Why in the world did those two lousy sonsabitches have to make it so damn hard?
Life would be so much easier to figure out if they just kept their friggin ***** in their pants, kept from spewing their lousy venom, and just did the godly thing. Would have made life a heck of a lot easier. Finding out about the bad stuff, I now find myself sorting out what's good and what's poison. They betrayed me, betrayed all of us- in my opinion.
Anything good I got out of that organization, I have to learn it over again, and again. I would have been better off learning from somebody that was godly to begin with.
So I know how to use a concordance, do a word study, and read greek. Whoopee. Could've got that almost anywhere else.
The same organization that brought me to all of those "wonderful people" is the same one that marked and avoided, separated close friends, and some of these I may never see again.
Some are instructed that if they happen to see me, just act nice, and run as fast as they can when I'm not looking.
But if there was no ministry, the likelihood of coming to where I am now, with the two kids I have- and they are fifty times better than me- probably never would have happened. I wouldn't trade away all the heartache in the world for them.
Was it worth it? I'll probably be confused about this crap till the day of my death..
At the time, Oakspear THOUGHT he had received great value.
The Enron employees who were convinced to buy company stock by its executives
THOUGHT they were receiving great value.
They thought that-and were told that- even when the executives were selling off
their own shares because the company was actually of no value.
Wordwolf, I was speaking about spiritual benefits and realities, since twi was once about that....
But be that as it may, a fair comparison might be if Oakspear were to buy the same stock over and over and over again for years and years, when he sees there is no profit in it from the first few months.
Why buy the same stock?
At some point, you say to yourself, "hey, I have to get out. It's not producing anything".
"Was it worth it?" can ONLY be answered by each one of us for ourselves...not for each other. Too many "we"s floating around. The good and the bad do not deny each other. If I say "it was worth it" for me and not necessarily for someone else, I am not denying anyone's TESTIMONY about the wrongs they may have suffered. If I say "it was worth it" for everyone, then I am as wrong as someone who tries to deny the benefits I gained because of their bad experience.
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Bob
No.
Just because a con artist suckered you into something doesn't mean you should be thankful because you found some use for it.
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Belle
To use TWI's own words....the value of the counterfit is increased by the likeness to the original.
I think TWI is the counterfit. Just enough truth and just enough "good hearted" people to come off as something genuine.
To use another TWIt logic: Good vs Best
TWI used to say some decision was "good" but deciding THIS (TWIts way) was "best".
TWI was goodNOT that I think it was good but someplace else would have been best.
Maybe some people got some of what they needed when they needed it from people involved in TWI (people - NOT TWI itself) but maybe God would have had something better for them if they hadn't gotten involved with TWI.
Personally? It wasn't worth it. Not one tittle of it.
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oldiesman
Rascal your question opens up other broader questions, that is, why does God allow evil in the world, and should the world never have been created and made, knowing all the evil has occurred.
But be that as it may, you think that in twi's case, it would have been better that it never happened because of the evil. Seems you don't see that by saying that, you're also negating all the blessings God wrought in people's lives.
God did that. God.
It seems to bug you to no end that there are folks who got blessed in twi.
But it seems all you seem to be concerned about is how the devil worked in twi, and you magnify those things above everything else, and when someone wants to communicate something positive God did in their lives, you take extreme offense at that and wonder why their experiences aren't supplanted by the evil experiences of others.
It's almost like you're giving the devil the victory and forgetting about everything God did, when all you need to do is simply let each person communicate their own experiences.
If you are having a hard time with this issue, just look at the Roman Catholic church and all the evil it has been responsible for thru the ages. Yet, good things have happened as well. If you are correct, then I suppose the RC church never should have happened as well.
So best I can say is I'm glad the good happened and I'm not glad that the evil happened. This is true for any church, be it RC, JW, or TWI.
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Bob
OM, you're only giving reasons for not having religion. If I have to take the evil with the good, I'll pass and stick with what I have (and save a ton of money).
I'll lay off your evil and omniscience statement before the thread completely derails.
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rascal
I don`t know oldies, it sounds like what you are saying is that what others suffered is somehow acceptable ....that somehow it was ok with God because some good came to some people out of an individual group.
My question is....could it (or any group) really be *good* or *Godly* if it was destroying people simultaniously while you were enjoying your percieved benefits?
Did God really want us there in harms way?
Why WHY would God lead some people to twi (or any group) to be blessed and the same God lead some people there to have their lives destroyed?
Did God only lead some of us there? Who led the rest of us who were used and hurt?
Did Satan lead us there to decieve, to steal and to destroy?
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Bob
Yes. What would life be like without the dark ages. All those hundreds of years when the RC churched ruled. All those people tortured and executed for not putting up with their ****. I'm sure thankful that they made up for it by giving some family a meal when they were hungry.
Now what are they going to do to make up for all those altar boys they molested? Hmm...
OM. Do you know what a hypocrite is? Or do you believe that just because someone gives off the pretense of doing good and someone buys into it, then we must take the evil with it?
If I have a dog that I really like, always been good to me, jumps up and down when I walk in the door, but then one day bites off my daughter's finger. What do you think I'm going to do with that dog? Say well, he does have a lot of good qualities. I guess I have to take the good with the bad. NOT! That dog's going down immediatly. He will not be remembered fondly either.
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justloafing
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LearnedTooLate
Rascal,
An interesting question. My answer is, wholeheartedly, "YES!"
Why? Because I was "in" in the late 70's & early 80's. I saw people who were truely loving and Godly, regardless of the garbage coming out of HQ. I learned some very important things that helped me not only then, when I was a troubled teen, but later, when life got REALLY tough and I would have buckled otherwise. I doubt I could have survived some of the things I've had to deal with had it not been for some of the keys, principles, and beliefs that I held as a direct result of TWI teachings.
Does that mean it didn't hurt when I found out TWI was a crock? Oh, God, did it ever hurt! I felt absolutely devastated. I felt like everything I'd ever learned was now subject to question. I felt betrayed by the very people I should have been able to trust, my spiritual leaders.
The fact of the matter is, they DID teach us that the only thing you could really trust is God, not people. I do remember that. It's helped me understand why some of them could do so much harm.
I've struggled a great deal trying to understand how it could have seemed so beautiful and great in the beginning and end up so bad and I have to say part of it is my fault. I WANTED to believe they were the best thing since sliced bread. I wanted to believe they were perfect and Godly. I wanted to believe they were infallible. I shouldn't have been so naive.
In my defense, I do have to say I tried to go back and re-up with TWI after the 'Fog years' and after LCM took over. As much as I thought he was the greatest, funniest teacher when I was in my early 20's and he was a Corps Coord, I thought he was a jerk when I came back in my 30's married and with kids. At least THEN I wasn't so naive and blinded by them!
It would have been nice to have lived life with the 'fairy tale' of TWI's perfectness intact. To think all the teachings were 'right on' and to think that all the early day teachers were Godly would have been very easy.
But no, it had to get hard. I had to get the rose colored glasses knocked off my face. I had to see reality and boy, was it some work to sort through everything and come to peace with it all.
In spite of the pain, in spite of the disillusionment, in spite of the heartbreak, I am very thankful they were there way back when I was a floundering teen who needed direction and needed love. There were so many people there (mostly the 'leaves' if I remember correctly) who had a wonderful, genuine love for God and God's people and they made all the difference.
Thank you to all of you who were "in" for the right reasons: for the love, for the "family," for the learning, for the joy. I learned what true joy within really is.
To hell with all of you who weren't in for the right reasons: for power, for greed, for the ability to manipulate, lie and decieve. Unless you have learned better.
LRND28
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rascal
Thanks learned2late, I remeber the love, the wonderfull *leaves* as well.....that is part of the pain and puzzle.....
I genuinely am trying to sort all of this out.....and honestly...not trying to be contentuous....but can you tell me.....going along the lines of what you described....when you were going through those really tough times ....if you had to look your brother or sister in the eye who had been devistated ....could you? Could you say *gee I am sorry for you suffering but I need what I got from this man/ministry*?
This is the question that I have to keep asking myself.....
I mean was what we recieved really worth what our brother or sister lost?
How could God lead some there to learn and some there to be destroyed?
Couldn`t God have cared enough to only lead those who would have benefited from association with twi if he wanted us there at all?
Why did he care about some of us and not others?
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TheInvisibleDan
Was it all worth it?
In my particular case, at least ...
abso-freakin-lutely!
I've met some interesting folk (both good 'n bad), encountered some weird, whacky way-out ideas, and have derived and continue to derive some interesting lessons from the whole experience- though such may not have been the lessons they intended to convey.
In any event, I realize others here went through some unimaginable, hellish experiences with the old gigantic cult, and if I was in their shoes, my opinion would probably be theirs. I wasn't as involved as others were, and I'm glad for that.
I don't value my experience due to any notion that their teachings were so grand and right and fabulous (they weren't) and Wierwille's glass-eye was worthy of being mounted on my fire place mantle. The experience is what it is to me...another episode or part of my life from which to draw lessons concerning both and bad...
Danny
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rascal
Speaking of the wonderfull love of the leaves...I wonder, was the love that we gave, the bible that I struggled to learn and teach, the people that I brought to fellowship....was what they recieved in those early fellowships that we enjoyed worth what was to befall them later?
Did We really do any favors for anyone by being kind and behaving with integrety, teaching scripture if in doing so, we lent an illusion of legitimacy to evil?
Were people disarmed by our love?
Were they seduced into evil by the scripture that we taught?
Were we evil for being the camoflage for the snare?
If we unkowingly do the works of evil, are we evil?
Where did God`s presence start? At what point did it end?
If there is a God ....why didn`t he protect us when we were only trying to do his will?
Did what we learn really bring us closer to God or has the overall experience confused us to the point that we no longer know who or what to trust?
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ex70sHouston
Was it worth it. Speaking for me only, and even considering I'm from the early era of good feelings. HELL NO.
I have had to analize every teaching and sermon since. While I find my beliefs are still close to those of TWI the trust that I should have in ministers/ministries is now lacking. I have lost the ability to trust.
I can honestly say that I wish that I had never taken the class.
The only good thing was the people. the love we had for each other was great. The rest was .....
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rascal
I guess that this might be an answere to cowgirls other thread...lol even after 6 years of posting on exway forums, I STILL have a million questions:-)
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Bramble
Was it worth it?
For me--no.
Those things I held as the most precious and important were the things attacked in the end--my marriage and family.
Yup, I've learned alot, I know alot about where I 'opened the doors.' That is the only value I see.
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Galen
rascal:
"Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi?"
The 'percieved' benefits that I saw, dont have to be measured up against the viscious treatment that others received do they?
I think that [from where I stood] many were blessed, and helped, and healed. And that was good. And I think that everyone here knows that.
Obviously there were also others who were hurt. Many Many were hurt on the Branch and Limb levels, and the closer you got towards HQ the higher the likelihood of getting hurt was.
In direct comparison, I would like to think that many drifted away when they first saw 'spiritual abuse' and so for the over-whelming majority they never saw and will never associate the good that they did experience, with the terribly viscious treatment that the few did get when they were in the presence of the BOD.
Keeping in mind that hundreds of thousands took PFAL over the decades, but that the ministry's count of faithfull followers never did top 100,000. And how many ever were drawn toward HQ? I dont know how many ever went into the WC, but the total of all years does it top 10,000? I doubt it. So I think that 'MOST' saw good and were blessed, but left as soon as they saw there was also bad. Less were drawn to be faithfull followers, but even these quit once the 'badness' became over-whelming. And still fewer were drawn to climb the ladder, and finally were exposed to the 'viscious treatment at the hands of ...".
"Were the benefits that we recieved from pfal valuable enough to make the suffering that was endured by some of us an acceptable price to pay?"
This I suppose would have to be answered by each individual. To this day, what percentage of all PFAL-grads ever heard about the truly bad stuff? Few I think. Bonnie and I only hard about it from GS, and that was after we had been 'out' for 3 years.
"Are we really sure that twi was even of Godly origins with so much devistation wrought?"
I know that I was called to TWI. That may have been only for a short period of time, or not. I tried to redeem the time, and to minister to others, to help others, and to share what I have learned. Obviously not everyone did.
"If we lable twi and vp as *good* on the basis that we were introduced to scripture....is twi or vp really any better than Jim Jones ...David Koresch ...Sun young moon (sp) or any other religious nut who utilizes scripture to co opt people in God`s name for the sating of their own lusts????"
I was introduced to the evils that religion does, when I was a child in the Baptist church in my hometown [Ceres California]. I dont think that anything on earth is 100% godly. It all has some portion of badness in it. I dont think you can easily point out any religion, or church, or ... that is truly 100% good. We are mankind after all [Oh wretched man that I am ...].
Dare any call it 'good'?
"Could God have really wanted us there at all?"
Yes, humbly I say.
:-)
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dmiller
The benefits I received from twi were not perceived -- they were a reality in my life, and still are (to some degree) even today. When I found out about all the atrocities "behind the scenes", that is when I made my exit -- all the while thinking that it was not God who was wrong, but the men that claimed to be speaking for Him.
God NEVER led anyone to the *good* side of twi, or to the bad side. I am not claiming that this *ministry* was God's work, but the Word that was taught drew many thousands to it (myself included), and plain and simply -- docvic screwed it up by indulging in his lusts, and addictions.
Even though I NOW know about the incredible mountain of crap that happened, and the incredible amount of personal hurt suffered by many, I can say -- Yes, it was worth it -- for me then -- but such would not be the case now.
AND --- the only reason I can say so, and still feel justified in answering that way is because I heard the Word taught there, regardless of the men who had a *$h!t-for-brains* lifestyle, ignoring the Word they taught.
And may I also say -- I was one of the lucky ones -- I managed to escape the big hurt, the abuse, the name-calling, etc., but even if I had been one of those defamed, spit on, tossed out, called demon-possesed, on and on -- I would say the same thing for this simple reason:
God and His Word still mean very much to me, and what I know now -- I learned a lot of it there.
Would I go back? No.
Can they offer any offer of reconciliation that will make me think better of that outfit? No.
Did they abuse their positions of *spiritual authority*? Absolutely.
Can I speak well of them today? No.
Are they still shiftless, and conniving? Yes.
Are they looking out for the interests of their *congregation*? No.
Even with all the negative connotations I have about twi, I can still say I do not regret having spent time there for this simple reason:
I do not equate twi and their practices with God and His Word. They taught me some of the Word, and for that I am thankful. It's too bad they had to taste the *forbidden fruit*, and be banished from the garden like Adam and Eve.
When I left twi -- I did not leave God, or His Son Jesus Christ. I left twi, and all they represent. I am grateful for what I learned from them, but also ashamed that I was once part of what I now know them to be.
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Oakspear
Was it worth it?
Was what worth it? What "benefits" did I receive that were "worth" something?
Learned to love God - I learned that from my parents first
Learned that the bible was the Word of God - Learned that from my parents too
Great fellowship - Had this with my parents and siblings and cousins, and some of my friends. Had it with some of the parents of the other Boy Scouts. Have it with some of the people that I work with, and with my lovely fiancee
Learned to "work the Word" - That's not worth a rat's foot IMHO - I learned how to make the bible reflect Wierwille's opinion, there's plenty of folks out there who "work the Wrd" and come up with other points of view
In retrospect, there really wasn't anything that I got out of TWI that I hadn't already gotten before.
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oldiesman
Oakspear, if you or anyone were in twi for years and years and now say you've nothing of value from the experience, why should anyone think anything but that you have you yourself to blame for wasting your own time and money?
Maybe after the first six month or year, you would have figured out that maybe this wasn't for you?
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WordWolf
"In vain is the snare set in sight of any bird."
====
At the time, Oakspear THOUGHT he had received great value.
The Enron employees who were convinced to buy company stock by its executives
THOUGHT they were receiving great value.
They thought that-and were told that- even when the executives were selling off
their own shares because the company was actually of no value.
If one was callous enough,
one could say the employees-who lost all their savings-
had only themselves to blame for wasting their time and money.
Well, technically, that is partially true.
Ultimately, they chose where to invest their money.
HOWEVER,
the executives were still brought to court for this and held CRIMINALLY LIABLE.
They lied to their employees, and deliberately deceived them, all for filthy lucres'
sake.
Those that hold authority are held responsible for making sound decisions, and for
not acting deceitfully. That's why this country has "lemon laws",
the Better Business Bureau, and the Dept of Consumer Affairs.
Someone buying an item that is misrepresented and breaks down quickly DID choose to
buy it, but the courts say the seller misrepresented the product, and is criminally
liable.
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Ham
Was it worth it.. at this point, I have to say I don't know. Don't know if my opinion will ever change.
Makes me want to answer a question with a question.
Why in the world did those two lousy sonsabitches have to make it so damn hard?
Life would be so much easier to figure out if they just kept their friggin ***** in their pants, kept from spewing their lousy venom, and just did the godly thing. Would have made life a heck of a lot easier. Finding out about the bad stuff, I now find myself sorting out what's good and what's poison. They betrayed me, betrayed all of us- in my opinion.
Anything good I got out of that organization, I have to learn it over again, and again. I would have been better off learning from somebody that was godly to begin with.
So I know how to use a concordance, do a word study, and read greek. Whoopee. Could've got that almost anywhere else.
The same organization that brought me to all of those "wonderful people" is the same one that marked and avoided, separated close friends, and some of these I may never see again.
Some are instructed that if they happen to see me, just act nice, and run as fast as they can when I'm not looking.
But if there was no ministry, the likelihood of coming to where I am now, with the two kids I have- and they are fifty times better than me- probably never would have happened. I wouldn't trade away all the heartache in the world for them.
Was it worth it? I'll probably be confused about this crap till the day of my death..
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oldiesman
But be that as it may, a fair comparison might be if Oakspear were to buy the same stock over and over and over again for years and years, when he sees there is no profit in it from the first few months.
Why buy the same stock?
At some point, you say to yourself, "hey, I have to get out. It's not producing anything".
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WordWolf
a-nal-o-gies
1. a) Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
b) A comparison based on such similarity.
You may notice, he DID get out.....
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Lifted Up
"Was it worth it?" can ONLY be answered by each one of us for ourselves...not for each other. Too many "we"s floating around. The good and the bad do not deny each other. If I say "it was worth it" for me and not necessarily for someone else, I am not denying anyone's TESTIMONY about the wrongs they may have suffered. If I say "it was worth it" for everyone, then I am as wrong as someone who tries to deny the benefits I gained because of their bad experience.
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CM
i don't know Mr. H
everyone has the good bad and ugly
in their past and present i think
twi or not, we're not alone
we can at least determine our future better
we can be the wiser for it and possibly help others
if we want to
there are other things in my life besides twi
that i wish i could change but can't
so...we move on
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