Well, for my whole time in the Way I found the catalyst for the goodness of the people to be what they learned from the bible. That environment that was produced in fellowship was created by a combination of things, the spirit of God in people, the fellowship with each other and the fellowship around the bible and it's various teachings. The weekly meetings in a home were a part of this but not the only part.
Not everyone came in the door nice and good. Some pretty rasty people became wonderful to be around and to know after being around "the believers". Why? I feel it was part what they chose to live and use of what they learned and part the influence of a group of people who were doing the same.
Of course a lot of great people would come and their own character would grow from what they learned and what they shared with and from the rest of the people they got to know.
I see it this way - most of the time in fellowships we had or participated in we read things from the bible that were pretty encouraging. Things that built a positive view of God, what God's view of us was, and what life could be like. We prayed together. Nobody got hurt or beat up. :)--> If somebody was bored or fried all they had to do was say so, make a contribution or a suggestion. But if someone got all hung up about something and needed to talk it out but wouldn't it made it hard too. So you'd just "love" that person, we all needed that and without that you don't have much by way of a Christian fellowship. I guess I see the one thing - the teaching of the bible and the other - the people, being two sides of the same coin.
The key to the home fellowship part of it was to not over extend yourself or others. If you could come, you came. If you could teach or share, you did. If you could help you helped.
I'll admit it could be hard to juggle at times but that was usually because I was fighting something obvious, something I was straining with that didn't need to be done that way or at that time.
quote: how much of those "blessings", etc were due to the doctrine taught in PFAL, and how much was due to the personalities of those who were around you?
I think and still do think that ideally both feed off each other. PFAL was a 'rallying point'; if you came to twig even once every two weeks you were at least marginally aware of how the word was moving (classes running or being put together). Also, if there was a golden age it was because things were kept simple; no grievous burdens/ no spittle.
When things were simple you didn't have to dread going to twig. There was no compulsion. Oak didn't mention it, but some of us still believe that God is very real and that He actually healed many peoples' lives in those fellowships via both PFAL AND the love in the fellowship.
Yes, I believe what you say is true, given those circumstances. But not all of us were that fortunate to have that in our fellowships unfortunately. :(-->
I think I know you well enough to say that you probably ran a beautiful, heartwarming, nurturing, sweet and lighthearted fellowship, filled with a good sense of humour (no doubt promulgated by Sir Socks himself :P-->) and people felt loved, cared for and as ease to come to anyone with a need.
I know I have read here on GS where people had the privilege of being apart of your fellowship and they spoke wonderful things about it. I wished I could have been one of those people. But, we do get to share 'fellowship' here on GS. I guess that's just as good!
Thanks for being here.
HEY...I just noticed this is my 1700th post ... how cool!! Paw, I think I need a cake or something? Don't you??
Well, I have a bit different take on it (yeah, big surprise).
I think the "sweetness" and fun fellowship and all that was entirely due to those in attendance. We were all idealistic, young kids who became convinced that there was a better way of doing things, so that put us in the state of mind of wanting to "Be our best for God" or whatever. Consequently, we acted in a loving and nurturing manner.
WayWorld, though, had a nasty streak of "my Way or the highway" in it, even back then. I remember driving to twig one time and the radiator hose blew on my (brand new) car. We were stranded in the middle of the freeway until I could hitch to an auto parts store, get a hose and antifreeze and hitch back. The whole time I was dreading what kind of bitch session we'd have to put up with once we got to twig - me and the others in the car with me. We had already learned to be paranoid of the wrath of "leadership" for our "lack of believing" - and this was in 1974. We were just weeks out of taking the class for the first time, and yet, there we were, dodging and weaving to avoid confrontation with the powers that were.
Personally I was madly in love with the girl that witnessed to me, or I'd have never gotten involved with the B.S. to begin with. And after awhile, I got to be pretty close with some of the others in our twig. How could you not, being as we were trying so hard to "manifest the love of God", and we spent all our free time with each other?
For those of us who felt that there was a "golden age" of TWI, (even if it was only in your twig) how much of that "sweetness", how much of those "blessings", etc were due to the doctrine taught in PFAL, and how much was due to the personalities of those who were around you?
For me it was a bit of both Oak, a bit of both. Had sweet times back in Indiana, and also here in Minnesota with the folks that chose to come to the fellowships -- cause we hung out with each other.
We hung out together because of *the Word* initially, but as Socks and John pointed out -- the one fed off of the other and soon it was hard to differentiate between the two (imo).
However -- I certainly would not have stayed, had there been a lot of *jerks* there (which is what it ended up being -- since everyone was more concerned about pleasing leadership, rather than be a fellowship), even if there was an abundance of Word there. I probably still would have gone for the teaching (occasionally), but not for the fellowship of others like I did in *the Golden Years*.
And Geo is right too, in that at the time, most of us were young and idealistic, and that certainly puts a different spin on the thought process.
Fyi -- I came to twi because of the Word that was taught. It was stuff I had never heard before, and I wanted to hear more. The *sweetness* of the fellowship was an added benefit. In later years, I stayed because of the
*sweetness* of the fellowship, even though I saw the teaching starting to go downhill.
Hey Ala, I know what you mean. I'm only speaking for the fellowships we had or were part of. Some of those could get dicy at times too. But overall I'd say we avoided the ugliness that many people describe experiencing. (moderately severe derail alert! )
Unfortunately it's not because I was exceptionally good at anything I did. I always felt time was a major factor, even for people that love to hang out. People work, go to school, have stuff to do. I'd worked hard in the Corps to learn how to do short sharings, teachings. I found 20 minutes is a long time when you don't have anything to say, much shorter when you have a lot to say. Most of the time it's somewhere in the middle so all you have to do is watch the time. Other than that a person just has to remain open to, whatever. People have a way of being really wonderful in their own ways.
I always felt an hour was a long time to plan anything for, definitely for a twig fellowship in a home. It never mattered to me if we started "ON TIME". I knew what time we met, everyone else did too. We'd hang out and start pretty much "on time" nearly all the time and it was never a big deal if somebody was "late". We wanted people to come and enjoy the time together and you can't do that if you're yelling at each other. We get hassled all day at work, on the roads, everywhere we go. "Twig" was supposed to be a place where you could feel welcome, relax, let your inner-putz-self be itself. Relax, you're amongst fellow-geeks. :D-->
One of the greatest honors I ever experienced was when people who left our areas to go WOW or to live somewhere else would call and come back later. We had a few people who thought of us when they were deciding where to live and they picked our fellowship to "come back to". We were always thrilled to be close to them again.
I can't count the number of problems I had myself at different time, jobs, schedules, getting in "sync" with the Way's goals when we lived on "the field". I'm glad most people loved me in return otherwise they would have had plenty to judge against me.
I know it wasn't always good everywhere. That's why I finally started to edge my way to a new life, and ultimately took the opportunity to leave when it was right. It just wasn't working out and I couldn't, didn't know how to fix it. I finally came to my own conclusion it wasn't fixable on a large scale.
I too was one of those who came because of the doctrine. I didn't need to find someone who loved me, my family filled that bill just fine, and I had plenty of friends, in the neighborhood and in school. I was impressed by the ability of wayfers to come up with answers when most people I knew just shrugged their shoulders.
However, the vast majority of people I knew over the years had no idea what the finer points of the doctrine were, and didn't care. They would have kept coming if Wierwille was teaching reincarnation or fire-walking, as long as the people in the fellowships were nice to them.
When things were simple you didn't have to dread going to twig. There was no ompulsion. Oak didn't mention it, but some of us still believe that God is very real and that He actually healed many peoples' lives in those fellowships via both PFAL AND the love in the fellowship.
For me, it was the novel idea of God needing me in the spiritual battle, that brought me back.....rather than the *word* or fellowship.
The wow that was undershepherding me died during our pfal class ....I was told that it was Satan that had killed her so that the word wouldn`t be taught.
Well by golly If God wanted that word spoken, if that was going to set peaople free, if I could some how pay Satan back, then put me in coach! You can count on me God...hey I was 17
Even if I didn`t quite get the *greatness* of pfal, or why everybody else was all hepped up about it....I figured that my understanding would be enhanced.
It felt very important to have a noble cause to devote myself to.
I stayed because I thought that was what God wanted, whether fellowships were good or bad, wether the program I was participating in sucked or not....whether I personally was happy and recieving benefits or not....I endured whatever was required because I felt that God required it.
I was at a transition period in my life and I liked having answers to questions I hadn't been able to get answers to - hanging out with people who were always happy and upbeat like I was - many times the teachings hit straight to my heart and whatever was going on in my life - they were also always upbeat and positive.
THEN things changed....I felt stupid for not being an AC grad, for not going WOW, for not being "spiritual enough" - I felt intimidated if I was sick or had had a bad day and said so - I was coerced into going witnessing and to things I didn't want to go to - We were only able to teach from regurgitated teachings or magazine articles and could no longer teach to the needs in the group - I felt like I was being watched and monitored.
I became a paranoid, helpless, immature, worthless member of God's only true household within the group: Outside the group I was an arrogant know-it-all Bible scholar confronting the world with the word.
However, the vast majority of people I knew over the years had no idea what the finer points of the doctrine were, and didn't care. They would have kept coming if Wierwille was teaching reincarnation or fire-walking, as long as the people in the fellowships were nice to them.
Ahhh -- Now I see what you mean. I agree with that, and looking over my involvement, I guess I thought the same way. Belle said that there were *happy up-beat people*, which I also met, but I equated that to them having the *positives* of the Word. Like I say -- I think the one fed off of the other. I guess I did start exiting when the fellowship was not so nice anymore, more than anything else.
But that could have been due to the control tactics, and the lack of good teaching too. I don't know. Catch 22 situation here.
Regardless, the *happy up-beat* people, became *miserable beat-up* people, and when that happened, I moved on.
Without a doubt it was the fellowship. I was thinking to myself, at the time, that it was such a pity that something like TWI was needed. If the churches were doing their jobs properly, there wouldn't have been a need for something like TWI.
However, the vast majority of people I knew over the years had no idea what the finer points of the doctrine were, and didn't care. They would have kept coming if Wierwille was teaching reincarnation or fire-walking, as long as the people in the fellowships were nice to them.
That was me, for sure. I got in because my girlfriend got suckered into it first, and that's the only reason really. I had a good time with some of the people and enjoyed stuff like the coffeehouses, but I paid very little attention to the teachings.
I took pfal to be part of the "in crowd" and because it was expected and to get people off my back, but it didn't change my life one bit. I did just enough to be considered "active," without attracting any attention so I wouldn't be asked to do anything.
I can't honestly say that the experience itself was bad, but there's no question that it did cost me that relationship.
I've oft wondered if things would have turned out far different had the Way stuck only to "research" and to selling a few books and tapes and ideas, and stayed clear of the entire "fellowship" business, leaving that entirely up to the people themselves in their areas, rather than prying into and trying to meddle with peoples' lives.
They should have stuck only to "research" and publishing stuff (whatever its merits or blunders) in their stupid cornfield and left the rest of us alone with our social choices and preferences with the teaching/fellowship stuff.
IMHO, their biggest mistake was getting into the "fellowship" business.
From what many here on GS say, things were quite different when the fellowships really were self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating. The Way Corps and WOW programs bit into those principles. Even when the Corps were "good guys", it was interfering with the natural growth in the local fellowship.
I think that experiment has already been conducted, Dan
Of course Wierwille ran his fellowships out of his basement, and brought in folks for "summer school" teaching, but in the early days of PFAL, how much control did he have over what went on in a fellowship? Probably not much, it wasn't until the growth of the Way Corps that such a thing was even possible.
From what many here on GS say, things were quite different when the fellowships really were self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating. The Way Corps and WOW programs bit into those principles. Even when the Corps were "good guys", it was interfering with the natural growth in the local fellowship.
I think that experiment has already been conducted, Dan
I understand what you're saying, Oak; it's too bad they didn't stick to that more laid-back approach. They just had cook up the Corp. to control the fellowships, I guess.
I've picked up a many publications and tapes from different groups over the years. For example, I've gotten the impression that some "groups", like "Concordant Concern", served merely as a custodian/distributor for selling the works of a certain late teacher/writer, rather than being bent on constructing a hierarchy or organization around his ideas to rule the freakin' world.
Every time I called Concordant up to order a book, I got the impression there was only one guy there, sitting in a dark basement or something, whom I just awoke with my phone call.
The beauty with books or tapes is one could read 'em and listen to 'em, agree or disagree, throw a book on one's shelf or ditch it in the garbage or sell it on Ebay if one so pleased.
But noooooo...Wierwille couldn't be content with such a simple, humble "legacy" - he was too damn greedy, power-hungry and stupid.
Dan, I tend to agree with your assessment, with some caveats - the idea of Way Nash sponsored and/or supported fellowships was at one time a reasonable idea. It really comes down to how self governing, propogating and financing is defined and applied. At it's best you have local, individual effort supported by a "ministry" that develops resources for people to use. The self-GPF always had this attached to it - "in cooperation with the next higher ex-officio level of the Way Tree".
That line describes a relationship in a Christian "ministry" corporate structure that I believe works best if the cooperation is primarily one of support, not rules that are mandated and handed down. It also can't be dictated by a central higher authority. The governance in the local fellowship has to be absolute, with decisions being made there that hold weight. "Cooperation" would then lean heavily towards "assistance" - help for that local fellowship to grow and develop as they determined. Each part of the "Way Tree" then helps the other parts to develop along the lines they decide.
In hindsight I've thought the Way ministry overall was a very specific "ministry" that was best at focusing on it's research and teaching efforts as a means to provide tools for people to take and use as they decided. From the Way's efforts there could have been many more ministry organizations, churches, etc. that would have sprung up. All kinds of different activities and endeavors.
It didn't work out that way of course because everything had to be run out of New Knoxville and eventually the Way was overrun with Way Corps greduates. Even then if the goal of the Way Corps had been to "turn people loose" to go on with their lives with a solid foundation AND support system to assist them there could have been some very interesting results.
I think there were in some cases, even with everything that's gone on. But it could have been a very unique opportunity for it's time.
One thing to remember about the Way Corps is that those people who graduated from the Way Corps didn't get cooked up out of thin air. They were people who were part of fellowships around the country. They were you, us, we, not "them". Everyone at one time was in a fellowship somewhere. What were the personal goals and impulses that caused a person to want what they thought the Way Corps training would provide? I think there's probably a 1,000 different answers to that, one for each person.
One thing to remember about the Way Corps is that those people who graduated from the Way Corps didn't get cooked up out of thin air. They were people who were part of fellowships around the country. They were you, us, we, not "them". Everyone at one time was in a fellowship somewhere. What were the personal goals and impulses that caused a person to want what they thought the Way Corps training would provide? I think there's probably a 1,000 different answers to that, one for each person.
Yeah......3200 way corps, each with personal goals and impulses.
Who would have ever thought the "corps commitment" would evolve into a corps-nazi, confrontational, glassy-eyed, kool-aid-drinking, turn-a-blind-eye-to-evil, corporate allegiance, hard-hearted program as martindale's leadership crescendoed.
And, if you exit.......they label ya puzzezzed!!! :D--> :D--> :D-->
One thing to remember about the Way Corps is that those people who graduated from the Way Corps didn't get cooked up out of thin air. They were people who were part of fellowships around the country. They were you, us, we, not "them". Everyone at one time was in a fellowship somewhere. What were the personal goals and impulses that caused a person to want what they thought the Way Corps training would provide? I think there's probably a 1,000 different answers to that, one for each person.
Excellent points, Socks.
Though I think the hierarchal environment which Wierwille created - ironically abandoning entirely his own youthful observations made in his "Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India" - which lessons he himself obviously tossed aside as early as 1972 (as attested with his hostile takeover as described in the Way West thread) -
provided the soil for the baser sides of human nature to have flourished; such encouraged the worst in people.
...Or to put it another way, Indoctrination into the groupthink mentality of wayword via the stolen, twisted and manipulative doctrines of grifter Vic...
...or the time spent with people pretending to be something they were not, wearing their pasty "bless you" smiles and using all the proper way jargon...All the while, setting you up to volunteer for some meaningless task in order to kiss the foot of the limb leader who was coming for a visit...even as they always found the opprotuinity to shove the "horn of Vic's plenty" in your face, I always found a certain relief when I finally left the damn meeting.
Honestly, the only reason I ever got persuaded to go into the way corps, was that I loved my home fellowship.
Somehow, I believed, at the tender age of 19, that if I left my fellowship, and received further training "in the whole Word, as to be able to teach others also..." it would be a good thing.
All the study stuff was interesting to a point, but I loved how my home fellowship brought me closer to my parents and my brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc...and kept me close.
I know now that I was the exception to the rule, in that TWI divided alot of families. But it really united mine, and in my naivete, I thought it could only get better.
In many ways it did. And when it didn't anymore, I quit. :)-->
The idea of intimate, in-home fellowship and living out one's faith day to day, is so good.
But when it gets micro-managed, it erupts. The so-called "doctrine" and "research and teaching" got to be so important, that it took the place of relationships.
How that happened, I'm still trying to figure out.....Of course, corrupt people on ego trips played a big part. :D-->
But it ruined everything. Call me an idealist, but some of the concepts, like home fellowships, are a really good idea.
It's just that the "research and teaching," groupthink, cult-mentality somehow got in the way.
I met some great people during my time with TWI though those people get the credit for that NOT TWI. The early success of TWI owes much to the hippy movement and the natural enthusiasm that the youth of that time had for spiritual ideas.
This tremendous energy was what propelled TWI
to the near 100,000 member mark. It wasn't the
"teachings" of PFAL that got me going or kept me there. It was the people !
In the process of becoming involved in TWI I met lots of people who were simultaneously investigating other avenues to enlightenment. Some wholesome and some not so wholesome. And I met some great people who didn't even bother to stick around for a a year before taking off to something else. It was an interesting time to be alive.
One of the guys at Twig used to say that it was the "hot bible and hot women" that kept him coming back. Twig allowed him to combine two of his more intense interests.
the problem I've seen with those who are very nostalgic for the so called "good ole days" is that they think that just because they met one good person than that means that TWI was totally "right on". I think you can find plenty of soldiers who made friends in the army and in comabt situations though they would quickly tell you that they didn't need to join the army just to make friends. You will find friends in many places. For me TWI was just one of those places... It wasn't the ONLY one.
Without a doubt it was the fellowship. I was thinking to myself, at the time, that it was such a pity that something like TWI was needed. If the churches were doing their jobs properly, there wouldn't have been a need for something like TWI.
"I agree! Now a lot of churches do the small group thing"TWI IS obsolete!
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socks
Well, for my whole time in the Way I found the catalyst for the goodness of the people to be what they learned from the bible. That environment that was produced in fellowship was created by a combination of things, the spirit of God in people, the fellowship with each other and the fellowship around the bible and it's various teachings. The weekly meetings in a home were a part of this but not the only part.
Not everyone came in the door nice and good. Some pretty rasty people became wonderful to be around and to know after being around "the believers". Why? I feel it was part what they chose to live and use of what they learned and part the influence of a group of people who were doing the same.
Of course a lot of great people would come and their own character would grow from what they learned and what they shared with and from the rest of the people they got to know.
I see it this way - most of the time in fellowships we had or participated in we read things from the bible that were pretty encouraging. Things that built a positive view of God, what God's view of us was, and what life could be like. We prayed together. Nobody got hurt or beat up.
:)--> If somebody was bored or fried all they had to do was say so, make a contribution or a suggestion. But if someone got all hung up about something and needed to talk it out but wouldn't it made it hard too. So you'd just "love" that person, we all needed that and without that you don't have much by way of a Christian fellowship. I guess I see the one thing - the teaching of the bible and the other - the people, being two sides of the same coin.
The key to the home fellowship part of it was to not over extend yourself or others. If you could come, you came. If you could teach or share, you did. If you could help you helped.
I'll admit it could be hard to juggle at times but that was usually because I was fighting something obvious, something I was straining with that didn't need to be done that way or at that time.
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johniam
quote: how much of those "blessings", etc were due to the doctrine taught in PFAL, and how much was due to the personalities of those who were around you?
I think and still do think that ideally both feed off each other. PFAL was a 'rallying point'; if you came to twig even once every two weeks you were at least marginally aware of how the word was moving (classes running or being put together). Also, if there was a golden age it was because things were kept simple; no grievous burdens/ no spittle.
When things were simple you didn't have to dread going to twig. There was no compulsion. Oak didn't mention it, but some of us still believe that God is very real and that He actually healed many peoples' lives in those fellowships via both PFAL AND the love in the fellowship.
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A la prochaine
Brother Argyle,
Yes, I believe what you say is true, given those circumstances. But not all of us were that fortunate to have that in our fellowships unfortunately.
:(-->
I think I know you well enough to say that you probably ran a beautiful, heartwarming, nurturing, sweet and lighthearted fellowship, filled with a good sense of humour (no doubt promulgated by Sir Socks himself
:P-->) and people felt loved, cared for and as ease to come to anyone with a need.
I know I have read here on GS where people had the privilege of being apart of your fellowship and they spoke wonderful things about it. I wished I could have been one of those people. But, we do get to share 'fellowship' here on GS. I guess that's just as good!
Thanks for being here.
HEY...I just noticed this is my 1700th post ... how cool!! Paw, I think I need a cake or something? Don't you??
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George Aar
Well, I have a bit different take on it (yeah, big surprise).
I think the "sweetness" and fun fellowship and all that was entirely due to those in attendance. We were all idealistic, young kids who became convinced that there was a better way of doing things, so that put us in the state of mind of wanting to "Be our best for God" or whatever. Consequently, we acted in a loving and nurturing manner.
WayWorld, though, had a nasty streak of "my Way or the highway" in it, even back then. I remember driving to twig one time and the radiator hose blew on my (brand new) car. We were stranded in the middle of the freeway until I could hitch to an auto parts store, get a hose and antifreeze and hitch back. The whole time I was dreading what kind of bitch session we'd have to put up with once we got to twig - me and the others in the car with me. We had already learned to be paranoid of the wrath of "leadership" for our "lack of believing" - and this was in 1974. We were just weeks out of taking the class for the first time, and yet, there we were, dodging and weaving to avoid confrontation with the powers that were.
Personally I was madly in love with the girl that witnessed to me, or I'd have never gotten involved with the B.S. to begin with. And after awhile, I got to be pretty close with some of the others in our twig. How could you not, being as we were trying so hard to "manifest the love of God", and we spent all our free time with each other?
Oh, to have those "sweet" years to do over...
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dmiller
For me it was a bit of both Oak, a bit of both. Had sweet times back in Indiana, and also here in Minnesota with the folks that chose to come to the fellowships -- cause we hung out with each other.
We hung out together because of *the Word* initially, but as Socks and John pointed out -- the one fed off of the other and soon it was hard to differentiate between the two (imo).
However -- I certainly would not have stayed, had there been a lot of *jerks* there (which is what it ended up being -- since everyone was more concerned about pleasing leadership, rather than be a fellowship), even if there was an abundance of Word there. I probably still would have gone for the teaching (occasionally), but not for the fellowship of others like I did in *the Golden Years*.
And Geo is right too, in that at the time, most of us were young and idealistic, and that certainly puts a different spin on the thought process.
Fyi -- I came to twi because of the Word that was taught. It was stuff I had never heard before, and I wanted to hear more. The *sweetness* of the fellowship was an added benefit. In later years, I stayed because of the
*sweetness* of the fellowship, even though I saw the teaching starting to go downhill.
So -- it has gone both ways for me.
:)-->
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socks
Hey Ala, I know what you mean. I'm only speaking for the fellowships we had or were part of. Some of those could get dicy at times too. But overall I'd say we avoided the ugliness that many people describe experiencing. (moderately severe derail alert! )
Unfortunately it's not because I was exceptionally good at anything I did. I always felt time was a major factor, even for people that love to hang out. People work, go to school, have stuff to do. I'd worked hard in the Corps to learn how to do short sharings, teachings. I found 20 minutes is a long time when you don't have anything to say, much shorter when you have a lot to say. Most of the time it's somewhere in the middle so all you have to do is watch the time. Other than that a person just has to remain open to, whatever. People have a way of being really wonderful in their own ways.
I always felt an hour was a long time to plan anything for, definitely for a twig fellowship in a home. It never mattered to me if we started "ON TIME". I knew what time we met, everyone else did too. We'd hang out and start pretty much "on time" nearly all the time and it was never a big deal if somebody was "late". We wanted people to come and enjoy the time together and you can't do that if you're yelling at each other. We get hassled all day at work, on the roads, everywhere we go. "Twig" was supposed to be a place where you could feel welcome, relax, let your inner-putz-self be itself. Relax, you're amongst fellow-geeks.
:D-->
One of the greatest honors I ever experienced was when people who left our areas to go WOW or to live somewhere else would call and come back later. We had a few people who thought of us when they were deciding where to live and they picked our fellowship to "come back to". We were always thrilled to be close to them again.
I can't count the number of problems I had myself at different time, jobs, schedules, getting in "sync" with the Way's goals when we lived on "the field". I'm glad most people loved me in return otherwise they would have had plenty to judge against me.
I know it wasn't always good everywhere. That's why I finally started to edge my way to a new life, and ultimately took the opportunity to leave when it was right. It just wasn't working out and I couldn't, didn't know how to fix it. I finally came to my own conclusion it wasn't fixable on a large scale.
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Oakspear
dmiller:
I too was one of those who came because of the doctrine. I didn't need to find someone who loved me, my family filled that bill just fine, and I had plenty of friends, in the neighborhood and in school. I was impressed by the ability of wayfers to come up with answers when most people I knew just shrugged their shoulders.
However, the vast majority of people I knew over the years had no idea what the finer points of the doctrine were, and didn't care. They would have kept coming if Wierwille was teaching reincarnation or fire-walking, as long as the people in the fellowships were nice to them.
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oldiesman
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rascal
For me, it was the novel idea of God needing me in the spiritual battle, that brought me back.....rather than the *word* or fellowship.
The wow that was undershepherding me died during our pfal class ....I was told that it was Satan that had killed her so that the word wouldn`t be taught.
Well by golly If God wanted that word spoken, if that was going to set peaople free, if I could some how pay Satan back, then put me in coach! You can count on me God...hey I was 17
Even if I didn`t quite get the *greatness* of pfal, or why everybody else was all hepped up about it....I figured that my understanding would be enhanced.
It felt very important to have a noble cause to devote myself to.
I stayed because I thought that was what God wanted, whether fellowships were good or bad, wether the program I was participating in sucked or not....whether I personally was happy and recieving benefits or not....I endured whatever was required because I felt that God required it.
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Belle
I was at a transition period in my life and I liked having answers to questions I hadn't been able to get answers to - hanging out with people who were always happy and upbeat like I was - many times the teachings hit straight to my heart and whatever was going on in my life - they were also always upbeat and positive.
THEN things changed....I felt stupid for not being an AC grad, for not going WOW, for not being "spiritual enough" - I felt intimidated if I was sick or had had a bad day and said so - I was coerced into going witnessing and to things I didn't want to go to - We were only able to teach from regurgitated teachings or magazine articles and could no longer teach to the needs in the group - I felt like I was being watched and monitored.
I became a paranoid, helpless, immature, worthless member of God's only true household within the group: Outside the group I was an arrogant know-it-all Bible scholar confronting the world with the word.
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ex70sHouston
When I first started going to twig fellowship and then took the class there were three things that kept me coming.
1. I had grown up in a dead church. Finding a place where the word was not dead was exciting.
2. The sweet fellowship. I was in college and most of the people were my own age and station in life. It was a great friendship experience.
3. I loved the girls and there were lots of them.
What finally ran me off was the control. I have never be a person who handles being told very well. I am great at taking sugjestions.
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dmiller
Ahhh -- Now I see what you mean. I agree with that, and looking over my involvement, I guess I thought the same way. Belle said that there were *happy up-beat people*, which I also met, but I equated that to them having the *positives* of the Word. Like I say -- I think the one fed off of the other. I guess I did start exiting when the fellowship was not so nice anymore, more than anything else.
But that could have been due to the control tactics, and the lack of good teaching too. I don't know. Catch 22 situation here.
Regardless, the *happy up-beat* people, became *miserable beat-up* people, and when that happened, I moved on.
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markomalley
Without a doubt it was the fellowship. I was thinking to myself, at the time, that it was such a pity that something like TWI was needed. If the churches were doing their jobs properly, there wouldn't have been a need for something like TWI.
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Pirate1974
That was me, for sure. I got in because my girlfriend got suckered into it first, and that's the only reason really. I had a good time with some of the people and enjoyed stuff like the coffeehouses, but I paid very little attention to the teachings.
I took pfal to be part of the "in crowd" and because it was expected and to get people off my back, but it didn't change my life one bit. I did just enough to be considered "active," without attracting any attention so I wouldn't be asked to do anything.
I can't honestly say that the experience itself was bad, but there's no question that it did cost me that relationship.
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TheInvisibleDan
I've oft wondered if things would have turned out far different had the Way stuck only to "research" and to selling a few books and tapes and ideas, and stayed clear of the entire "fellowship" business, leaving that entirely up to the people themselves in their areas, rather than prying into and trying to meddle with peoples' lives.
They should have stuck only to "research" and publishing stuff (whatever its merits or blunders) in their stupid cornfield and left the rest of us alone with our social choices and preferences with the teaching/fellowship stuff.
IMHO, their biggest mistake was getting into the "fellowship" business.
Danny
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Oakspear
From what many here on GS say, things were quite different when the fellowships really were self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating. The Way Corps and WOW programs bit into those principles. Even when the Corps were "good guys", it was interfering with the natural growth in the local fellowship.
I think that experiment has already been conducted, Dan
Of course Wierwille ran his fellowships out of his basement, and brought in folks for "summer school" teaching, but in the early days of PFAL, how much control did he have over what went on in a fellowship? Probably not much, it wasn't until the growth of the Way Corps that such a thing was even possible.
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TheInvisibleDan
I understand what you're saying, Oak; it's too bad they didn't stick to that more laid-back approach. They just had cook up the Corp. to control the fellowships, I guess.
I've picked up a many publications and tapes from different groups over the years. For example, I've gotten the impression that some "groups", like "Concordant Concern", served merely as a custodian/distributor for selling the works of a certain late teacher/writer, rather than being bent on constructing a hierarchy or organization around his ideas to rule the freakin' world.
Every time I called Concordant up to order a book, I got the impression there was only one guy there, sitting in a dark basement or something, whom I just awoke with my phone call.
The beauty with books or tapes is one could read 'em and listen to 'em, agree or disagree, throw a book on one's shelf or ditch it in the garbage or sell it on Ebay if one so pleased.
But noooooo...Wierwille couldn't be content with such a simple, humble "legacy" - he was too damn greedy, power-hungry and stupid.
Danny
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socks
Dan, I tend to agree with your assessment, with some caveats - the idea of Way Nash sponsored and/or supported fellowships was at one time a reasonable idea. It really comes down to how self governing, propogating and financing is defined and applied. At it's best you have local, individual effort supported by a "ministry" that develops resources for people to use. The self-GPF always had this attached to it - "in cooperation with the next higher ex-officio level of the Way Tree".
That line describes a relationship in a Christian "ministry" corporate structure that I believe works best if the cooperation is primarily one of support, not rules that are mandated and handed down. It also can't be dictated by a central higher authority. The governance in the local fellowship has to be absolute, with decisions being made there that hold weight. "Cooperation" would then lean heavily towards "assistance" - help for that local fellowship to grow and develop as they determined. Each part of the "Way Tree" then helps the other parts to develop along the lines they decide.
In hindsight I've thought the Way ministry overall was a very specific "ministry" that was best at focusing on it's research and teaching efforts as a means to provide tools for people to take and use as they decided. From the Way's efforts there could have been many more ministry organizations, churches, etc. that would have sprung up. All kinds of different activities and endeavors.
It didn't work out that way of course because everything had to be run out of New Knoxville and eventually the Way was overrun with Way Corps greduates. Even then if the goal of the Way Corps had been to "turn people loose" to go on with their lives with a solid foundation AND support system to assist them there could have been some very interesting results.
I think there were in some cases, even with everything that's gone on. But it could have been a very unique opportunity for it's time.
One thing to remember about the Way Corps is that those people who graduated from the Way Corps didn't get cooked up out of thin air. They were people who were part of fellowships around the country. They were you, us, we, not "them". Everyone at one time was in a fellowship somewhere. What were the personal goals and impulses that caused a person to want what they thought the Way Corps training would provide? I think there's probably a 1,000 different answers to that, one for each person.
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skyrider
Yeah......3200 way corps, each with personal goals and impulses.
Who would have ever thought the "corps commitment" would evolve into a corps-nazi, confrontational, glassy-eyed, kool-aid-drinking, turn-a-blind-eye-to-evil, corporate allegiance, hard-hearted program as martindale's leadership crescendoed.
And, if you exit.......they label ya puzzezzed!!!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
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TheInvisibleDan
Excellent points, Socks.
Though I think the hierarchal environment which Wierwille created - ironically abandoning entirely his own youthful observations made in his "Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India" - which lessons he himself obviously tossed aside as early as 1972 (as attested with his hostile takeover as described in the Way West thread) -
provided the soil for the baser sides of human nature to have flourished; such encouraged the worst in people.
Danny
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GrouchoMarxJr
Research & Teaching vs. Fellowship....
...Or to put it another way, Indoctrination into the groupthink mentality of wayword via the stolen, twisted and manipulative doctrines of grifter Vic...
...or the time spent with people pretending to be something they were not, wearing their pasty "bless you" smiles and using all the proper way jargon...All the while, setting you up to volunteer for some meaningless task in order to kiss the foot of the limb leader who was coming for a visit...even as they always found the opprotuinity to shove the "horn of Vic's plenty" in your face, I always found a certain relief when I finally left the damn meeting.
...I don't know, that's a tough one.
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ex10
Excellent insights on this thread.
Honestly, the only reason I ever got persuaded to go into the way corps, was that I loved my home fellowship.
Somehow, I believed, at the tender age of 19, that if I left my fellowship, and received further training "in the whole Word, as to be able to teach others also..." it would be a good thing.
All the study stuff was interesting to a point, but I loved how my home fellowship brought me closer to my parents and my brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc...and kept me close.
I know now that I was the exception to the rule, in that TWI divided alot of families. But it really united mine, and in my naivete, I thought it could only get better.
In many ways it did. And when it didn't anymore, I quit.
:)-->
The idea of intimate, in-home fellowship and living out one's faith day to day, is so good.
But when it gets micro-managed, it erupts. The so-called "doctrine" and "research and teaching" got to be so important, that it took the place of relationships.
How that happened, I'm still trying to figure out.....Of course, corrupt people on ego trips played a big part.
:D-->
But it ruined everything. Call me an idealist, but some of the concepts, like home fellowships, are a really good idea.
It's just that the "research and teaching," groupthink, cult-mentality somehow got in the way.
That's my story, for tonight, anyway.....
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diazbro
I met some great people during my time with TWI though those people get the credit for that NOT TWI. The early success of TWI owes much to the hippy movement and the natural enthusiasm that the youth of that time had for spiritual ideas.
This tremendous energy was what propelled TWI
to the near 100,000 member mark. It wasn't the
"teachings" of PFAL that got me going or kept me there. It was the people !
In the process of becoming involved in TWI I met lots of people who were simultaneously investigating other avenues to enlightenment. Some wholesome and some not so wholesome. And I met some great people who didn't even bother to stick around for a a year before taking off to something else. It was an interesting time to be alive.
One of the guys at Twig used to say that it was the "hot bible and hot women" that kept him coming back. Twig allowed him to combine two of his more intense interests.
the problem I've seen with those who are very nostalgic for the so called "good ole days" is that they think that just because they met one good person than that means that TWI was totally "right on". I think you can find plenty of soldiers who made friends in the army and in comabt situations though they would quickly tell you that they didn't need to join the army just to make friends. You will find friends in many places. For me TWI was just one of those places... It wasn't the ONLY one.
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smurfette
"I agree! Now a lot of churches do the small group thing"TWI IS obsolete!
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