It can be a hard decision, but I maintain that if you are miserable in twi, you owe it to yourself to get up and leave. God doesn't want you to be miserable. Your children will understand your decision some day if they can't now.
Are you serious?
Abandon your kids so you can be less miserable? Leave them with the Innie spouse, with out your protection or input? Or put them through the TWI style custody fights, where the spouse that leaves Twi is possessed and the kids are told that? How scary and confusing is that to a child?
That's what your God wants? Just for you to be happy??
What about a parent's responsibility to those children? What about raising them to be as healthy and as undamaged as possible in the situation? Isn't that love? Sometimes that means you get to be miserable until something changes. In some religions that would be called a sacrifice. Parents sometimes do what they need to do to take care of their kids, even if it doesn't make the parents 'happy.'
Sometimes it's just not that easy, OM.
They'll forgive you someday? Really? Sure about that?
When I left, I had somewhat of a life- a job, a nice comfy place to stay, food on the table, a family- some SUPPORT. Others did not have any of these "luxuries".
I had none of these "luxuries". I had a wife and two very young children. A daughter four, and a son two. But I had God and His Word, and I never thought that being shafted by The Way would slow me down and keep me from being prosperous or healthy or blessed. And now with a family of four kids-daughter 20, son 18, son 13, and last but not least, a son who is nine, we are still healthy and blessed.
The Way did not hurt me and my family to the point of curtailing our progress. We took the good, and left behind the bad. We just shifted gears and forged ahead. My mindset was; Well, at least I do not have to deal with the real hardships that other humans in history have dealt with, like:
Living in a gulag in Siberia, having no shoes in the winter at Valley Forge with George Washington and the troops, the horrors of WW I or WW II, the Great Depression, or the Bubonic Plague, or the famines of Ethiopia, Biafra, or the genocidal maniacs in Ruwanda.
Life is what you decide to make it, and if you include God and take Him at His Word, you can't fail, because He is always faithful and will perform that which He has promised...
for some people it could have been wrong to leave the Way at the time they felt it most beneficial to themselves because it would have caused hurt or harm of some kind to someone else, like a spouse, child, parent, etc. So for that person, they "couldn't leave" although if they'd had their druthers, they would have. They chose to deal with it and dealing with it became more than they bargained for or ever had any right to expect, but they stayed.
for some people it would have been impossible to leave because they were overwhelmed with fear of what would happen if they did - fear of dying, fear of harm coming to their family's as they would be ravaged by Satan. Fear fed by the teachings of the Way's President and upheld by local people they - at one time - respected and trusted. So they stayed, their natural tendency to protect their well being kicking in.
for some people it would have been possible, but very difficult and hurtful at the same time. Faced with personal suffering those people might have been better equipped to leave if they'd had help. They needed help, support, but they didn't have it so they didn't.
for still others it was possible and with or without support they didn't have any overwhelming constraints or if they did they took what came to them, regardless. They left and made the best of it if they had difficulties.
--
Speaking for myself, I'm 54 years old now. I would have no problem with any of this today. Or would I? I think the hardest thing to deal with at any age is when someone else you care about is in pain and even more so knowing what you're about to do may cause it. No one wants to do that. It's worse than being in pain yourself. Dealing with those kinds of situations are difficult.
The fact that many people have these kinds of difficulties isn't a cause for judgment IMO, it's cause for understanding. It's human, it's normal. It may be stupid, ill-advised and setting you up for worse, but people do that sometimes.
Different people deal with things differently, some better some worse. The common ground we share is our imperfection and our desire to build a better life out of what we've been given. That's true for everyone.
IMO the best thing to do with people like those in the Way who uphold harmful beliefs and do wrong to people is to get away from them. Plan to do it, prepare to do it. Talk, get support, advice, opinions and finally act. It may be difficult but you can stop harmful cycles of thinking and behavior. If you can help them, do it but honestly evaluate your own limits.
There's a story - two friends stand outside a door, and prepare to go in. The first man opens it, walks in and closes it behind him. He realizes it's pitch black! He can't see a thing. The second man calls out from outside - "Is it okay to come in?" The first man says back "Yes!" and the second man opens the door, rushes in and as he closes the door behind him he turns and runs in to his friend, knocks him over and they both fall down, knocking over furniture in the process. In the darkness they scramble around until finally the second man yells out to his friend "Why didn't you tell me it was pitch black in here?!" His friend says back "You didn't ask me that!"
Ever notice the solution is often "tough love" , when whoever tells you that crap does NOT love the person YOUR suppose to bully into getting your way?
I say right back at ya to whoever rocks YOUR world in life , in fact YOU first.
Now people who complain about life , need to make changes, every one knows no one eles can change your life , it is an individual felowship with the LORD and a person own responsibility to conduct their life.
Inside late at night everyone knows this mostly.
the pain and confusion comes along when we chose to allow others to dictate to us what is best... and emotions such as LOVE and responsibility and hate and fear becomes factors in our choices.
I wish I could find somone to find my solutions.. IT IS EASIER!
But issues with what they may decide happens. It becomes problems . The deeper the connection or loyalty or responsibility or ignorance of a situation or person or people the more complex the solution becomes.
So as OM states slap up the head and TELL them to get it together !!!!
it just frankly doesnt work.
LOVE works. Really it does. I am not into taking responsibility for someone eles and their choices to be blamed for the wrongness it must end up to be for them . NO I can and chose to LOVE somone in the pain and confusion and ALLOW them to just do it, mistakes and all .
Like a hospital, My kids are grown but IM still the hospital ya know , when an emergency or illnes comes along in life (problems and the the need for change or solutions) IM the hospital to get along make ya feel better , maybe some medication for a while to get rid of the soreness, then .. they must leave and carry on with life and choices and decisions.
Same way with my friends, I would love to tell one of my best friend her husband is a bad toad and worthless, they have been married for over twenty years!!!! BUT I do not say LEAVE the bastard he is no good. That is MY choice for her and wouldnt work for her would it? so I am here I listen I love I care I try to understand and I stay in the relationship for LOVE and one another.
Is that not what Jesus Does for each of us?
Or does he say"Well life is a bitch and your must have screwed up somehow so suffer till you learn?" Tough love my foot.
Life is tough but that has NOTHING to do with loving one another at all. What good is love like that?
I speak to those involved in twi, and I frankly love them. and yaknow what happens either they decide Im the devil seed and leave me alone, or they call and speak when the gut says geez I wish I could but I do not know how to leave and they get strength and encouragement from another who did. One day they will if they can if it right for them till them I chose to LOVE them.
Leave the dead man on the side of the road or pick him up and help the dude is a bible story man. who was right?
A broken leg takes weeks to heal. and somone may have to drive ya around for weeks.. Cancer treatment takes years sometimes to get out of trouble it can bring...
WE as folloers of the LORD are the hospital for The great healer Jesus Christ. Praise God for giving us such a mighty LORD to direct our life and the purpose is simple Jesus ASKS us of ONE thing and that is to LOVE one another!
Or teach them a good bad foot lesson of how tough a christian can be and slap them around a little , seems to me that is what the guy on the side of the road ran into, and the good guy is the way who scraped him up, was the example of what we should do.
A big part of me understands how difficult it may be to 'leave' and get out of TWI; really, I do. I also understand the strong desire a spouse may have to save a marriage.
However. I'm thinking that in the case where one spouse has 'awakened' and realizes that getting out is the desired thing to do, I don't see how 'staying in' really contributes to actually saving the marriage, especially if there are children involved in the marriage, especially young ones.
By all means, should a spouse in a marriage with children decide to leave, TAKE YOUR CHILDREN WITH YOU.
Whereas I do believe in the concept of 'tough love' I haven't seen anything anyone has spoken of that LCM & co. has said or done as falling anywhere close to tough love. Tough, yes, LOVE... absolutely not. Usually, when it comes to "loving tough" the 'tough lover' has some standing, or natural place in the life of the recipient that gives them the right to 'get tough' with someone they ALREADY love.
I'm sure its quite clear to 'all' that LCM don't love NOBODY, especially not even himself. We would all do well to consider 100% of LCM's lunchtime (or any other time) rantings as 100% intentional abusiveness from a madman. If he's not certifiably insane... he's certianly MAD; as in angry.
My point is, simply, in the style of a notable politician in a recent national debate.
"I've known tough love in my life, sir; and THAT is NO tough love!"
I don't think that it was at pfal 77, but it might have been at Advanced Class 79, or even Sound Out 84 that I heard docvic address the *situation* of folks leaving the ministry.
He said (to the best of my memory):
Where are you going to go?
What are you going to do?
What can the world offer you?
Imo -- he set the stage for the *entrapment* that kept so many people in for so long. He equated twi with God and the Word, and if you left twi you were turning your back on God.
Not being privy to all that really went on in twi2, and twi3 -- I'm seeing that all that has been said here (on this thread) has it's roots, and foundations from that statement from long ago, and has been milked to the max. :(-->
If you believe twi is God's *gift to man*, no -- you can't leave. You would be turning your back on God. But -- if you see the inconsistencies, the deceit, the manipulation, the lies and the back-stabbing -- you can leave with a clear conscience.
There is a big, bright, wonderful world to be enjoyed out here -- just as God intended it to be. :)-->
Come and dine, the Master calleth, come and dine.:)-->
However. I'm thinking that in the case where one spouse has 'awakened' and realizes that getting out is the desired thing to do, I don't see how 'staying in' really contributes to actually saving the marriage, especially if there are children involved in the marriage, especially young ones.
I think every case is different in ways we don't see. I wouldn't advise anyone to leave their marriage without trying a few other things first. Like talking about it for one. I'm no professional but saving the marriage and family would be top priority to me.
Tough Love-
My wife has gotten tough with me when I was drinking too much beer. But she talked to me and poured on the tenderness. There wasn't even much voice raising. It was tough to handle but she got through my thick head. I could see what she was saying and it was true. It was killing me and our marriage. I don't even drink beer much at all anymore.
Getting tough with love is pouring on the tenderness and saying what needs to be said. Not booting anyone out the door. That shouldn't even cross your mind untill you've tryed some other things first. imo
oldies quickly goes to expelling the other person. No tenderness, no talking, no nothing.
As a twig/fellowship coor. We weren't doing too bad. But we had to be at everything which was not right. My family was suffering for it. Both my wife and I saw this. Plus the leaders meetings with the bc were a pain.
Then our fellowship got so small that we were given the option to quit running it or continue. We quit. Eventually we ended up in the bc's fellowship. My kids hated it. My wife quit going.
So I had to think of why for my kids and my wife. It wasn't too hard to figure out. No love, no life, no true fellowship, no truth.
So I called the bc on a Sunday afternoon (i knew where they would be-hq-didn't want to talk to them personally) and said that we were taking a break from twi for a while. He tried calling for three days, but I just let my machine answer.
Then he had one of the other people in the fellowship call. I talked to him. By then I had gotten some info off the internet and from J.S. at CFF from a phone call to him. So I unloaded on this guy and told him what I knew. He couldn't handle it and insisted that we should come back.
We didn't.
That's our story, the short version. Others are different. I expect families at hq would have a much harder time leaving.
btw-we don't go to any group's fellowships, all i go to is the internet.
The fact that many people have these kinds of difficulties isn't a cause for judgment IMO, it's cause for understanding. It's human, it's normal. It may be stupid, ill-advised and setting you up for worse, but people do that sometimes.
Different people deal with things differently, some better some worse. The common ground we share is our imperfection and our desire to build a better life out of what we've been given. That's true for everyone.
Socks, I have really been enjoying your posts lately. :)--> Thanks for posting.
All situations are different and each relationship is different. People have to realize that we don't all handle things the same way, but we are all doing the best we can.
Maybe I waited too long hoping my ex would wake up and see TWI for what it is. Maybe I ignored the signs that it was never going to happen. Maybe I should have pushed the issue 5 years ago when I first found out so much of the crap that TWI had been hiding in the closets. *shrug* Who knows? I had to do things on my own terms in my own way and just reading on WayDale and GSpot where people said to just leave and made it seem so easy, so cut and dry - well, it pi$$ed me off. They had no idea what I was going through if they thought it was that easy. It just isn't for some people.
I had to hit rock bottom spiritually, emotionally, physically.....in every "ly" way before I was able to even consider divorce and being out of TWI for good.
Imo. The entire CONCEPT of ANY ministry being "God's Ministry," as in WE are and YOU are NOT, is a product of ego. The ego of the leader is evident as he is, at least on THAT point, not following God, he's trying to BE LIKE God. In so doing, he's following Lucifer whose goal was to exalt his own throne, ABOVE God.
quote:
...twi is God's *gift to man*, no -- you can't leave. You would be turning your back on God.
That becomes a literal truth for you. When you look inside yourself, you DO see that you are following god. Problem is, its the WRONG god, you start following the god of this world.
There truly IS nothing new under the sun. The reality is that the VAST majority (I would guess over 95%) of the guys running ministries are doing so because they want to "ascend above the heights of the clouds" and "be like the most High." Ego is a CONSTANT and NEVER-ENDING temptation for church leadership. History, especially Bible history.
These days I'm seing that the work of the ministry is simple.... "If you can't love your brother that you do see you CAN'T (that is CAN'T, not DON'T, or won't - - it says you can not, as in do NOT have the ABILITY to) love God, whom you cannot see.
To be Godly, you gotta go the love route, tender first; 'tough' as a later, if not last resort.
You know CM. I agree with you about trying other things before leaving or splitting up a relationship, especially a marriage and most certainly a marriage with children.
Most people seem to think that "tough love" means "getting tough" with somebody. Not necessarily so. Its more about dealing with things that may be tough to deal with. Its tough for the lover and/OR the loved one. It, the situation is usually tough to deal with for all involved.
However, it involves doing what is necessary, as you said in an individual situation, which MAY involve "toughness" after other, 'softer' measures have failed and the negative situation persists.
You, obviously had enough actual love for your spouse that your love for her was "loud enough" inyour mind and heart that you 'heard her." When she "poured on the tenderness," THAT opened you up to what she said.
"A soft answer" DOES "turn away wrath." "Grievious words" DO "stir up anger." LCM was always speaking about "operating principle." Yet he neglected to use one THAT one.
I didn't know him during the twi-2 days, but I knew him "when;" he was never the guy to go to to get tenderness from.
Thanks for posting your points CM, it actually never crossed my mind that a person wouldn't try lots of other stuff, as in EVERYTHING before they left a spouse. Personally, after stinding up in front of a group of people and making promises like marriage vows, I couldn't look at myself in a mirror or sleep at night had I not tried everything in my power to save my marriage before the divorce.
Part of the reason I'm OK with the divorce is that I CAN honestly say I did my all to keep my vows. The marriage failed, but I know I didn't fail the marriage.
I think that's important to anyone still 'in' who may want to leave but spouse wants to stay. You MUST first determine a "balance point then find it and live it.
Second. You MUST determine "enough is enough" points and positions. Those positions should be your best attempt to know and understand the difference between things you may (self AND your children) not LIKE and things that are actually damaging to yourself and, especially, the children.
Thing you don't like aren't always damaging to you and things that damage you are not always something you don't LIKE. Its about honesty, maybe a level of honesty a person has to take a 'tough' look at themselves and "just do it."
Honestly. "How am I providing for my family by loving TWi 'as Christ loved the church' and 'gave himself for it' IF I can't even DISCUSS my wife's feelings about the subject?"
"Just HOW wrong IS it to stay home from fellowship JUST to PLAY with my children?"
"Does GOD ALMIGHTY, HIMSELF really need ME, His son, to string chairs, TONITE more than MY son needs ME to help with his math? - - Or even to watch "Fear Factor" on TV with him?"
It kinda ironic from my POV, I'm posting on a thread called "You CAN'T Leave" when I was kicked OUT of Twi. In my experience, I HAD to leave.
This is not to in any way diminish anyone else's situation.
I wasn't given a specific reason, maybe because that had too many to number. I DO know that the last year I was there on staff I refused to go to Corps Night because I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I honestly could not get with the concept of leaving my wife & kids at home to go and listen to tapes of teachings that I had already heard live.
When the issue came up about staff Corps grads setting an example for in residence WC by goin gto corps night I said, "How about we set an example of how a Corps Grad puts his family first? How about we set an example of how we actually STUDY the notes we took while in residence. How about the example that we set by actually teaching our non Corps wives and children who weren't BORN when we were in residence, the stuff we've committed our lives to 'working' and teaching? How about I start with MY family.
What kind of example could my WHOLE FAMILY be to the in residence corps? Should I just take MORE notes on the same teaching?
When would I study the NEW notes. If Corps night isn't a good time for me to set aside to study at home with my family, what IS a good time.
Lots of folks agreed with me.
Maybe that's why they got rid of me & the rest of us?
You did what you did, now its done. You did what you felt was best for you at the time, that's ALL that really matters, really .
It doesn't matter what ANYONE else thinks about what YOU did. Nobody can place a 'right' or 'wrong,' 'good' or 'best' label on what YOU did, past tense.
Not even you, honey. We can all look back and throw 'what if's' about. Maybe the 'what if' might have made things easier or even "better" for you. Maybe it wouldn't.
When thinking of 'maybe's' concerning the past I recommend we include "Maybe its over." I know there's a process over time; shedding twi from a person is not an easy thing.
I, for one, am happy that you share your feelings and experiences. Discussing it helps - - EVERYBODY, Even Oakie. -->
Yeah HCW, man I feel for ya'. And all that went through this stuff.
One of the problems with twi is they ENCOURAGE divorce. Subtly if not just straight out telling you to leave your wife or husband.
Bastards.
They tryed to break us up. Get one of us alone and talk about how the other was doing or not doing the word. They love to break up marriages. It's like they won something. Pretty sick.
By the way, you mentioned that Lucifer wanted to exalt his throne above God. The verse quoted says the stars of God. Is there any source other than Wierwille (and later Martidale) who translated that verse as "above THE star: God"? Seems to me that the genetive of possession in Hebrew was expressed by placing the possessing noun immediately after the object of possession (I know, I'm setting my self up for "possession" jokes)
In other words the Hebrew words for stars God would be translated stars of God.
Come on Oakie man, you know I don't have a problem with you. I know, or at least I know I think you mean well. :P-->
And you certainly know I believe you have a right to your position and I appreciate it, even when we disagree. (Which is not to specifically attack your POV on this topic. I'm trying to sidestep those fireworks )
On the Lucifer thing, I agree with the Hebrew to English transliteration as being, "the stars OF God," rather than "THE star, God." (We can probably get a decent discussion on this on the "another BS TWi teaching" thread.)
As I read the context there in Isiah 14. it seems to express the idea that Lucifer wants to exalt HIS throne above, like, EVERYTHING. I read it kinda like this:
"...you have said in your heart "I WILL:
- ascend into heaven,
- exalt my throne above the stars of God,
- sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north,
- ascend above the heights of the clouds, (and therefore...)
I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH!" As in every-thing, in every way.
Seeing as God already is all of the above, for Lucifer to ascend to that positon he would have to desire to have HIS throne 'above' God's.
I think that's a logical conclusion one can draw from simply reading it, not necessarily needing a Bible scholar to confirm. Vp, on the other hand, was wont to take conclusions HE had drawn from HIS ideas and inject them INTO what he read.
THEN he twisted the Bible and said, "See right here, THIS says what I think, you can read it for yourself!"
Vpw's, "I am right, THEY are wrong." is part of the same 'Luciferesque' thinking I'm talking about. I was sorta paraphrasing 'everything' we know about Lucifer, the whole 'arch adversary, war in heaven/ I wanna run the place' thing moreso than saying that those particular words in that particular verse 'proves' the "above God" thing.
Good point for discussion, thanks for bringin' it up.
One of the problems with twi is they ENCOURAGE divorce. Subtly if not just straight out telling you to leave your wife or husband.
Bastards.
CM, Did you mean "SICK bastards?"
It is a real "Twighlight Zone," zone - - zone - - - zone, (insert music here) moment for me every time I learn something about or see something pointed out about TWI-2. The wierdness is how directly antithetical the "evils" are to things once taught in TWI-1.
In TWI-1 people's lives were ruined and others effected negatively by trying to adhere to the legalistic concept that
"Any two Christians can renew their minds and be sucessfully married."
They used to hurt women who were married to jerk christio-nazi types by saying, "Renew your mind dammit, stay with him! SUBMIT!!! If you were a better wife MAYBE he wouldn't be such a jerk to you."
Yes, that IS the sound of a steamroller crunching bones and the squishy flattening of human flesh you hear in the background.
Now they conspire to say, "Leave the jerk, stay with US, he's possessed anyways." The next step down on the "Evolution of a 'Chrisitian' Ministry Chart."
Thanks, y'all! :)--> I have few regrets, but nothing I lose sleep over anymore.
This is excellent advice and bears repeating:
quote:
Part of the reason I'm OK with the divorce is that I CAN honestly say I did my all to keep my vows. The marriage failed, but I know I didn't fail the marriage.
Me too. I could have done things better, handled my own problems differently, but I did the best I could with what I knew. No regrets. :)-->
quote:
I think that's important to anyone still 'in' who may want to leave but spouse wants to stay. You MUST first determine a "balance point then find it and live it.
Second. You MUST determine "enough is enough" points and positions. Those positions should be your best attempt to know and understand the difference between things you may ... not LIKE and things that are actually damaging to yourself and, especially, the children.
Things you don't like aren't always damaging to you and things that damage you are not always something you don't LIKE. Its about honesty, maybe a level of honesty a person has to take a 'tough' look at themselves and "just do it."
Honestly. "How am I providing for my family by loving TWi 'as Christ loved the church' and 'gave himself for it' IF I can't even DISCUSS my wife's feelings about the subject?"
"Just HOW wrong IS it to stay home from fellowship JUST to PLAY with my children?"
"Does GOD ALMIGHTY, HIMSELF really need ME, His son, to string chairs, TONITE more than MY son needs ME to help with his math? - - Or even to watch "Fear Factor" on TV with him?"
Very sage advice. It helps to draw a line in your mind on how far you're willing to go and fight for your marriage. For me, I didn't do that but it became harder and harder to love and trust someone I knew would chose a group of people over his COMMITMENT TO GOD to love his WIFE as Christ loved the church. He started condescending to me intellectually and would not consider any concerns I had about doctrinal issues or even practical issues. I was wrong - period - end of discussion. One can only take blows to the self esteem like that for so long before they collapse or explode. I collapsed. I have since discovered my "hot air" source, though. :D-->
Part of the reason I'm OK with the divorce is that I CAN honestly say I did my all to keep my vows. The marriage failed, but I know I didn't fail the marriage.
Good point. It could be viewed as a cop-out attitude, but for those who truly tried to keep their marriages together despite all of the crap floating around in our lives while in twi, it provides a way of escape. For some, it was escape from abuse.
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A la prochaine
I ditto what CM said ...
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CM
and after all that talk on another thread more than a year ago....oldi
some remember...
I can see quite clearly what I'm talking to...
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Bramble
Are you serious?
Abandon your kids so you can be less miserable? Leave them with the Innie spouse, with out your protection or input? Or put them through the TWI style custody fights, where the spouse that leaves Twi is possessed and the kids are told that? How scary and confusing is that to a child?
That's what your God wants? Just for you to be happy??
What about a parent's responsibility to those children? What about raising them to be as healthy and as undamaged as possible in the situation? Isn't that love? Sometimes that means you get to be miserable until something changes. In some religions that would be called a sacrifice. Parents sometimes do what they need to do to take care of their kids, even if it doesn't make the parents 'happy.'
Sometimes it's just not that easy, OM.
They'll forgive you someday? Really? Sure about that?
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J0nny Ling0
I had none of these "luxuries". I had a wife and two very young children. A daughter four, and a son two. But I had God and His Word, and I never thought that being shafted by The Way would slow me down and keep me from being prosperous or healthy or blessed. And now with a family of four kids-daughter 20, son 18, son 13, and last but not least, a son who is nine, we are still healthy and blessed.
The Way did not hurt me and my family to the point of curtailing our progress. We took the good, and left behind the bad. We just shifted gears and forged ahead. My mindset was; Well, at least I do not have to deal with the real hardships that other humans in history have dealt with, like:
Living in a gulag in Siberia, having no shoes in the winter at Valley Forge with George Washington and the troops, the horrors of WW I or WW II, the Great Depression, or the Bubonic Plague, or the famines of Ethiopia, Biafra, or the genocidal maniacs in Ruwanda.
Life is what you decide to make it, and if you include God and take Him at His Word, you can't fail, because He is always faithful and will perform that which He has promised...
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CM
oldiesman
if tou truly want help out of this snare
e-mail me and let me know
do you have the courage? are you willing
to listen? do you want love?
or are you just playing us to your liking
there is more then you can imagine in His
Love then you can see...
your prescription blew your cover
you've been busted-face it
there is help...here now
tomorrow i work a little in the morning
but will return to you when I know what to say
have you gone so far off course to not hear?
btw - A la - thanks
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Radar OReilly
CM,
PRIVATE TOPICs please?
ror
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CM
i'm there radar
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socks
Maybe it would be safe to say that-
for some people it could have been wrong to leave the Way at the time they felt it most beneficial to themselves because it would have caused hurt or harm of some kind to someone else, like a spouse, child, parent, etc. So for that person, they "couldn't leave" although if they'd had their druthers, they would have. They chose to deal with it and dealing with it became more than they bargained for or ever had any right to expect, but they stayed.
for some people it would have been impossible to leave because they were overwhelmed with fear of what would happen if they did - fear of dying, fear of harm coming to their family's as they would be ravaged by Satan. Fear fed by the teachings of the Way's President and upheld by local people they - at one time - respected and trusted. So they stayed, their natural tendency to protect their well being kicking in.
for some people it would have been possible, but very difficult and hurtful at the same time. Faced with personal suffering those people might have been better equipped to leave if they'd had help. They needed help, support, but they didn't have it so they didn't.
for still others it was possible and with or without support they didn't have any overwhelming constraints or if they did they took what came to them, regardless. They left and made the best of it if they had difficulties.
--
Speaking for myself, I'm 54 years old now. I would have no problem with any of this today. Or would I? I think the hardest thing to deal with at any age is when someone else you care about is in pain and even more so knowing what you're about to do may cause it. No one wants to do that. It's worse than being in pain yourself. Dealing with those kinds of situations are difficult.
The fact that many people have these kinds of difficulties isn't a cause for judgment IMO, it's cause for understanding. It's human, it's normal. It may be stupid, ill-advised and setting you up for worse, but people do that sometimes.
Different people deal with things differently, some better some worse. The common ground we share is our imperfection and our desire to build a better life out of what we've been given. That's true for everyone.
IMO the best thing to do with people like those in the Way who uphold harmful beliefs and do wrong to people is to get away from them. Plan to do it, prepare to do it. Talk, get support, advice, opinions and finally act. It may be difficult but you can stop harmful cycles of thinking and behavior. If you can help them, do it but honestly evaluate your own limits.
There's a story - two friends stand outside a door, and prepare to go in. The first man opens it, walks in and closes it behind him. He realizes it's pitch black! He can't see a thing. The second man calls out from outside - "Is it okay to come in?" The first man says back "Yes!" and the second man opens the door, rushes in and as he closes the door behind him he turns and runs in to his friend, knocks him over and they both fall down, knocking over furniture in the process. In the darkness they scramble around until finally the second man yells out to his friend "Why didn't you tell me it was pitch black in here?!" His friend says back "You didn't ask me that!"
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mj412
This idea of tough love is CRAP.
Ever notice the solution is often "tough love" , when whoever tells you that crap does NOT love the person YOUR suppose to bully into getting your way?
I say right back at ya to whoever rocks YOUR world in life , in fact YOU first.
Now people who complain about life , need to make changes, every one knows no one eles can change your life , it is an individual felowship with the LORD and a person own responsibility to conduct their life.
Inside late at night everyone knows this mostly.
the pain and confusion comes along when we chose to allow others to dictate to us what is best... and emotions such as LOVE and responsibility and hate and fear becomes factors in our choices.
I wish I could find somone to find my solutions.. IT IS EASIER!
But issues with what they may decide happens. It becomes problems . The deeper the connection or loyalty or responsibility or ignorance of a situation or person or people the more complex the solution becomes.
So as OM states slap up the head and TELL them to get it together !!!!
it just frankly doesnt work.
LOVE works. Really it does. I am not into taking responsibility for someone eles and their choices to be blamed for the wrongness it must end up to be for them . NO I can and chose to LOVE somone in the pain and confusion and ALLOW them to just do it, mistakes and all .
Like a hospital, My kids are grown but IM still the hospital ya know , when an emergency or illnes comes along in life (problems and the the need for change or solutions) IM the hospital to get along make ya feel better , maybe some medication for a while to get rid of the soreness, then .. they must leave and carry on with life and choices and decisions.
Same way with my friends, I would love to tell one of my best friend her husband is a bad toad and worthless, they have been married for over twenty years!!!! BUT I do not say LEAVE the bastard he is no good. That is MY choice for her and wouldnt work for her would it? so I am here I listen I love I care I try to understand and I stay in the relationship for LOVE and one another.
Is that not what Jesus Does for each of us?
Or does he say"Well life is a bitch and your must have screwed up somehow so suffer till you learn?" Tough love my foot.
Life is tough but that has NOTHING to do with loving one another at all. What good is love like that?
I speak to those involved in twi, and I frankly love them. and yaknow what happens either they decide Im the devil seed and leave me alone, or they call and speak when the gut says geez I wish I could but I do not know how to leave and they get strength and encouragement from another who did. One day they will if they can if it right for them till them I chose to LOVE them.
Leave the dead man on the side of the road or pick him up and help the dude is a bible story man. who was right?
A broken leg takes weeks to heal. and somone may have to drive ya around for weeks.. Cancer treatment takes years sometimes to get out of trouble it can bring...
WE as folloers of the LORD are the hospital for The great healer Jesus Christ. Praise God for giving us such a mighty LORD to direct our life and the purpose is simple Jesus ASKS us of ONE thing and that is to LOVE one another!
Or teach them a good bad foot lesson of how tough a christian can be and slap them around a little , seems to me that is what the guy on the side of the road ran into, and the good guy is the way who scraped him up, was the example of what we should do.
always a choice .
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HCW
A big part of me understands how difficult it may be to 'leave' and get out of TWI; really, I do. I also understand the strong desire a spouse may have to save a marriage.
However. I'm thinking that in the case where one spouse has 'awakened' and realizes that getting out is the desired thing to do, I don't see how 'staying in' really contributes to actually saving the marriage, especially if there are children involved in the marriage, especially young ones.
By all means, should a spouse in a marriage with children decide to leave, TAKE YOUR CHILDREN WITH YOU.
Whereas I do believe in the concept of 'tough love' I haven't seen anything anyone has spoken of that LCM & co. has said or done as falling anywhere close to tough love. Tough, yes, LOVE... absolutely not. Usually, when it comes to "loving tough" the 'tough lover' has some standing, or natural place in the life of the recipient that gives them the right to 'get tough' with someone they ALREADY love.
I'm sure its quite clear to 'all' that LCM don't love NOBODY, especially not even himself. We would all do well to consider 100% of LCM's lunchtime (or any other time) rantings as 100% intentional abusiveness from a madman. If he's not certifiably insane... he's certianly MAD; as in angry.
My point is, simply, in the style of a notable politician in a recent national debate.
"I've known tough love in my life, sir; and THAT is NO tough love!"
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dmiller
I don't think that it was at pfal 77, but it might have been at Advanced Class 79, or even Sound Out 84 that I heard docvic address the *situation* of folks leaving the ministry.
He said (to the best of my memory):
Where are you going to go?
What are you going to do?
What can the world offer you?
Imo -- he set the stage for the *entrapment* that kept so many people in for so long. He equated twi with God and the Word, and if you left twi you were turning your back on God.
Not being privy to all that really went on in twi2, and twi3 -- I'm seeing that all that has been said here (on this thread) has it's roots, and foundations from that statement from long ago, and has been milked to the max.
:(-->
If you believe twi is God's *gift to man*, no -- you can't leave. You would be turning your back on God. But -- if you see the inconsistencies, the deceit, the manipulation, the lies and the back-stabbing -- you can leave with a clear conscience.
There is a big, bright, wonderful world to be enjoyed out here -- just as God intended it to be.
:)-->
Come and dine, the Master calleth, come and dine.
:)-->
David
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CM
HCW
I think every case is different in ways we don't see. I wouldn't advise anyone to leave their marriage without trying a few other things first. Like talking about it for one. I'm no professional but saving the marriage and family would be top priority to me.
Tough Love-
My wife has gotten tough with me when I was drinking too much beer. But she talked to me and poured on the tenderness. There wasn't even much voice raising. It was tough to handle but she got through my thick head. I could see what she was saying and it was true. It was killing me and our marriage. I don't even drink beer much at all anymore.
Getting tough with love is pouring on the tenderness and saying what needs to be said. Not booting anyone out the door. That shouldn't even cross your mind untill you've tryed some other things first. imo
oldies quickly goes to expelling the other person. No tenderness, no talking, no nothing.
No love at all.
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dmiller
YES!!
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CM
1999
How we left-
As a twig/fellowship coor. We weren't doing too bad. But we had to be at everything which was not right. My family was suffering for it. Both my wife and I saw this. Plus the leaders meetings with the bc were a pain.
Then our fellowship got so small that we were given the option to quit running it or continue. We quit. Eventually we ended up in the bc's fellowship. My kids hated it. My wife quit going.
So I had to think of why for my kids and my wife. It wasn't too hard to figure out. No love, no life, no true fellowship, no truth.
So I called the bc on a Sunday afternoon (i knew where they would be-hq-didn't want to talk to them personally) and said that we were taking a break from twi for a while. He tried calling for three days, but I just let my machine answer.
Then he had one of the other people in the fellowship call. I talked to him. By then I had gotten some info off the internet and from J.S. at CFF from a phone call to him. So I unloaded on this guy and told him what I knew. He couldn't handle it and insisted that we should come back.
We didn't.
That's our story, the short version. Others are different. I expect families at hq would have a much harder time leaving.
btw-we don't go to any group's fellowships, all i go to is the internet.
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Belle
Socks, I have really been enjoying your posts lately.
:)--> Thanks for posting.
All situations are different and each relationship is different. People have to realize that we don't all handle things the same way, but we are all doing the best we can.
Maybe I waited too long hoping my ex would wake up and see TWI for what it is. Maybe I ignored the signs that it was never going to happen. Maybe I should have pushed the issue 5 years ago when I first found out so much of the crap that TWI had been hiding in the closets. *shrug* Who knows? I had to do things on my own terms in my own way and just reading on WayDale and GSpot where people said to just leave and made it seem so easy, so cut and dry - well, it pi$$ed me off. They had no idea what I was going through if they thought it was that easy. It just isn't for some people.
I had to hit rock bottom spiritually, emotionally, physically.....in every "ly" way before I was able to even consider divorce and being out of TWI for good.
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HCW
Amen Dave.
Imo. The entire CONCEPT of ANY ministry being "God's Ministry," as in WE are and YOU are NOT, is a product of ego. The ego of the leader is evident as he is, at least on THAT point, not following God, he's trying to BE LIKE God. In so doing, he's following Lucifer whose goal was to exalt his own throne, ABOVE God.
That becomes a literal truth for you. When you look inside yourself, you DO see that you are following god. Problem is, its the WRONG god, you start following the god of this world.
There truly IS nothing new under the sun. The reality is that the VAST majority (I would guess over 95%) of the guys running ministries are doing so because they want to "ascend above the heights of the clouds" and "be like the most High." Ego is a CONSTANT and NEVER-ENDING temptation for church leadership. History, especially Bible history.
These days I'm seing that the work of the ministry is simple.... "If you can't love your brother that you do see you CAN'T (that is CAN'T, not DON'T, or won't - - it says you can not, as in do NOT have the ABILITY to) love God, whom you cannot see.
To be Godly, you gotta go the love route, tender first; 'tough' as a later, if not last resort.
You know CM. I agree with you about trying other things before leaving or splitting up a relationship, especially a marriage and most certainly a marriage with children.
Most people seem to think that "tough love" means "getting tough" with somebody. Not necessarily so. Its more about dealing with things that may be tough to deal with. Its tough for the lover and/OR the loved one. It, the situation is usually tough to deal with for all involved.
However, it involves doing what is necessary, as you said in an individual situation, which MAY involve "toughness" after other, 'softer' measures have failed and the negative situation persists.
You, obviously had enough actual love for your spouse that your love for her was "loud enough" inyour mind and heart that you 'heard her." When she "poured on the tenderness," THAT opened you up to what she said.
"A soft answer" DOES "turn away wrath." "Grievious words" DO "stir up anger." LCM was always speaking about "operating principle." Yet he neglected to use one THAT one.
I didn't know him during the twi-2 days, but I knew him "when;" he was never the guy to go to to get tenderness from.
Thanks for posting your points CM, it actually never crossed my mind that a person wouldn't try lots of other stuff, as in EVERYTHING before they left a spouse. Personally, after stinding up in front of a group of people and making promises like marriage vows, I couldn't look at myself in a mirror or sleep at night had I not tried everything in my power to save my marriage before the divorce.
Part of the reason I'm OK with the divorce is that I CAN honestly say I did my all to keep my vows. The marriage failed, but I know I didn't fail the marriage.
I think that's important to anyone still 'in' who may want to leave but spouse wants to stay. You MUST first determine a "balance point then find it and live it.
Second. You MUST determine "enough is enough" points and positions. Those positions should be your best attempt to know and understand the difference between things you may (self AND your children) not LIKE and things that are actually damaging to yourself and, especially, the children.
Thing you don't like aren't always damaging to you and things that damage you are not always something you don't LIKE. Its about honesty, maybe a level of honesty a person has to take a 'tough' look at themselves and "just do it."
Honestly. "How am I providing for my family by loving TWi 'as Christ loved the church' and 'gave himself for it' IF I can't even DISCUSS my wife's feelings about the subject?"
"Just HOW wrong IS it to stay home from fellowship JUST to PLAY with my children?"
"Does GOD ALMIGHTY, HIMSELF really need ME, His son, to string chairs, TONITE more than MY son needs ME to help with his math? - - Or even to watch "Fear Factor" on TV with him?"
It kinda ironic from my POV, I'm posting on a thread called "You CAN'T Leave" when I was kicked OUT of Twi. In my experience, I HAD to leave.
This is not to in any way diminish anyone else's situation.
I wasn't given a specific reason, maybe because that had too many to number. I DO know that the last year I was there on staff I refused to go to Corps Night because I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I honestly could not get with the concept of leaving my wife & kids at home to go and listen to tapes of teachings that I had already heard live.
When the issue came up about staff Corps grads setting an example for in residence WC by goin gto corps night I said, "How about we set an example of how a Corps Grad puts his family first? How about we set an example of how we actually STUDY the notes we took while in residence. How about the example that we set by actually teaching our non Corps wives and children who weren't BORN when we were in residence, the stuff we've committed our lives to 'working' and teaching? How about I start with MY family.
What kind of example could my WHOLE FAMILY be to the in residence corps? Should I just take MORE notes on the same teaching?
When would I study the NEW notes. If Corps night isn't a good time for me to set aside to study at home with my family, what IS a good time.
Lots of folks agreed with me.
Maybe that's why they got rid of me & the rest of us?
I dunno. They weren't big enough to even tell me.
Personally, I think everyone SHOULD leave.
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HCW
You know Belle;
You did what you did, now its done.
You did what you felt was best for you at the time, that's ALL that really matters, really 
.
It doesn't matter what ANYONE else thinks about what YOU did. Nobody can place a 'right' or 'wrong,' 'good' or 'best' label on what YOU did, past tense.
Not even you, honey. We can all look back and throw 'what if's' about. Maybe the 'what if' might have made things easier or even "better" for you. Maybe it wouldn't.
When thinking of 'maybe's' concerning the past I recommend we include "Maybe its over." I know there's a process over time; shedding twi from a person is not an easy thing.
I, for one, am happy that you share your feelings and experiences. Discussing it helps - - EVERYBODY, Even Oakie.
-->
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CM
Yeah HCW, man I feel for ya'. And all that went through this stuff.
One of the problems with twi is they ENCOURAGE divorce. Subtly if not just straight out telling you to leave your wife or husband.
Bastards.
They tryed to break us up. Get one of us alone and talk about how the other was doing or not doing the word. They love to break up marriages. It's like they won something. Pretty sick.
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Oakspear
Even Oakie, huh?
:P-->
By the way, you mentioned that Lucifer wanted to exalt his throne above God. The verse quoted says the stars of God. Is there any source other than Wierwille (and later Martidale) who translated that verse as "above THE star: God"? Seems to me that the genetive of possession in Hebrew was expressed by placing the possessing noun immediately after the object of possession (I know, I'm setting my self up for "possession" jokes)
In other words the Hebrew words for stars God would be translated stars of God.
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HCW
Come on Oakie man, you know I don't have a problem with you. I know, or at least I know I think you mean well.
:P-->
And you certainly know I believe you have a right to your position and I appreciate it, even when we disagree.
(Which is not to specifically attack your POV on this topic. I'm trying to sidestep those fireworks 
)
On the Lucifer thing, I agree with the Hebrew to English transliteration as being, "the stars OF God," rather than "THE star, God." (We can probably get a decent discussion on this on the "another
BS TWi teaching" thread.)
As I read the context there in Isiah 14. it seems to express the idea that Lucifer wants to exalt HIS throne above, like, EVERYTHING. I read it kinda like this:
"...you have said in your heart "I WILL:
- ascend into heaven,
- exalt my throne above the stars of God,
- sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north,
- ascend above the heights of the clouds, (and therefore...)
I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH!" As in every-thing, in every way.
Seeing as God already is all of the above, for Lucifer to ascend to that positon he would have to desire to have HIS throne 'above' God's.
I think that's a logical conclusion one can draw from simply reading it, not necessarily needing a Bible scholar to confirm. Vp, on the other hand, was wont to take conclusions HE had drawn from HIS ideas and inject them INTO what he read.
THEN he twisted the Bible and said, "See right here, THIS says what I think, you can read it for yourself!"
Vpw's, "I am right, THEY are wrong." is part of the same 'Luciferesque' thinking I'm talking about. I was sorta paraphrasing 'everything' we know about Lucifer, the whole 'arch adversary, war in heaven/ I wanna run the place' thing moreso than saying that those particular words in that particular verse 'proves' the "above God" thing.
Good point for discussion, thanks for bringin' it up.
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HCW
CM, Did you mean "SICK bastards?"
It is a real "Twighlight Zone," zone - - zone - - - zone, (insert music here) moment for me every time I learn something about or see something pointed out about TWI-2. The wierdness is how directly antithetical the "evils" are to things once taught in TWI-1.
In TWI-1 people's lives were ruined and others effected negatively by trying to adhere to the legalistic concept that
"Any two Christians can renew their minds and be sucessfully married."
They used to hurt women who were married to jerk christio-nazi types by saying, "Renew your mind dammit, stay with him! SUBMIT!!! If you were a better wife MAYBE he wouldn't be such a jerk to you."
Yes, that IS the sound of a steamroller crunching bones and the squishy flattening of human flesh you hear in the background.
Now they conspire to say, "Leave the jerk, stay with US, he's possessed anyways." The next step down on the "Evolution of a 'Chrisitian' Ministry Chart."
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CM
which in wayworld translates to any believer could have sex with any believer-just renew your mind
i was there from 1980 and saw this thinking
And I'd like to second what you said for Belle, HCW
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Belle
Thanks, y'all!
:)--> I have few regrets, but nothing I lose sleep over anymore.
This is excellent advice and bears repeating:
Me too. I could have done things better, handled my own problems differently, but I did the best I could with what I knew. No regrets.
:)-->
Very sage advice. It helps to draw a line in your mind on how far you're willing to go and fight for your marriage. For me, I didn't do that but it became harder and harder to love and trust someone I knew would chose a group of people over his COMMITMENT TO GOD to love his WIFE as Christ loved the church. He started condescending to me intellectually and would not consider any concerns I had about doctrinal issues or even practical issues. I was wrong - period - end of discussion. One can only take blows to the self esteem like that for so long before they collapse or explode. I collapsed. I have since discovered my "hot air" source, though.
:D-->
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Nottawayfer
Quote by HCW:
Good point. It could be viewed as a cop-out attitude, but for those who truly tried to keep their marriages together despite all of the crap floating around in our lives while in twi, it provides a way of escape. For some, it was escape from abuse.
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